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[25NL] - 3B Pot facing flop c/r on wet board

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  1. #1

    Default [25NL] - 3B Pot facing flop c/r on wet board

    Hi guys, new to FTR and just recently started playing again.

    I used to grind 100nl full time time after graduating uni but god offered a decent job so couldn't turn it down as I couldn't see poker being a long term thing so put my career first. I recently quit my job to start my own business so I'm getting back into grinding aswell

    Full Tilt, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

    MP1: $10.94 (43.8 bb)
    MP2: $25 (100 bb)
    MP3: $26.60 (106.4 bb)
    CO: $19.71 (78.8 bb)
    Hero (BTN): $27.27 (109.1 bb)
    SB: $45.57 (182.3 bb)
    BB: $28.57 (114.3 bb)
    UTG+1: $13.55 (54.2 bb)
    UTG+2: $46.34 (185.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BTN with T J
    UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.75, 4 folds, Hero raises to $2, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls $1.25

    Flop: ($4.35) J T K (2 players)
    UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $2.50, UTG+2 raises to $6.50, [color="red"]Hero ??

    Villian is a reg on FTP, playing most games that are running from 25-100nl (searched him). I don't have many hands on him because this was my first session back on the grind.

    I'd 3bet him a couple times previously & he folded. I don't think he's doing this too light, c/r AA would be over repping, I feel like his range is pretty nuttish hands & made straights. I could have probably made it a bit larger on the flop on that wet board which may caused him to turn a mid pair he's set mining into a bluff but IDK if he's capable of doing this.

    Any thoughts welcome
  2. #2
    This is tough because it is a scary board, so calling and letting another card peel off is gonna be rough. But folding two pair is really tough too because that could easily be the best hand.

    You are crushed against KK, AQ, Q9, (also TT and JJ, which are very unlikely). You are beating KQ, AA, QT/QJ. As you said, you 3-bet him a couple times, and he could easily be doing this with any hand and be tired of you pushing him around.

    I could see them doing the same thing with a flush draw (with the Q of clubs).

    It's a tough call, because there are so many scary cards that can fall. Whether they are bluffing or have it, they are probably gonna continue and lead out on the turn, and you're basically faced with the same decision.

    Definitvely, I don't know. I seemed to ramble a little bit and not help much haha. I think I would probably call and evaluate later (although that is probably a bad play).
  3. #3
    Deanglow's Avatar
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    pre is too loose, fold flop
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Deanglow View Post
    pre is too loose, fold flop
    so you're suggesting fold pre?

    Given previous dynamics I thought it's a decent spot for 3b light & a decent hand to do it with but I mebbe wrong, haven't played properly in a while.
  5. #5
    surviva316's Avatar
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    With this dynamic, you could 3b for value if you were deeper and villain weren't a quarter of a mile away from the button. In this spot, though, we're clearly bluffing because we're snap folding to a 4b, and our strongest blocker hands that we can't call should make up the entirety of our very small 3b bluffing range, so making a standard 3b with JTs is not a good play here. All of calling, folding and CiB'ing are better than trying to rep AA, though I'm not totally sure what the best of those three options is (probably not calling unless we have a good idea of what it takes to make villain fold postflop).

    As played, there are 18 combos of AQ/JJ/TT, and I struggle to think of a whole lot of combos of worse that are doing this. Additionally, even the hands that we are ahead of play well against this hand specifically, whereas our hand is basically a couple of tattered rags versus his value range. So I don't really know how to continue profitably here.
    Last edited by surviva316; 08-12-2013 at 04:11 PM.
  6. #6
    griffey24's Avatar
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    I would 3b a hand that is not profitable to call with, but that flops ok in a 3b pot. Something like JTo, but I think we can flat JTs here on the button reasonably profitably, pending on your post flop play, although it is close given villains position.

    That being said, if you've been 3b him often I don't know why you would 3b so small pre? Feel like this will just induce a 4b bluff which we don't want. I'd make it 3x his open, so like $2.25 IP or so.

    As played, he may be playing back at us any day now, so I'm definitely calling here and seeing a turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
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    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  7. #7
    surviva316's Avatar
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    A) JTo is REALLY far away from the top of our folding range. AJo/ATo is more like it.

    B) JTo has counterproductive blockers in this situation. (Something like AJo/ATo is more like it).

    C) JTo plays terrible against his continuing range.

    I'd disagree that players tend to play back more at small 3b's by 4b'ing more. I think they tend to be more likely to just flat. That's part of why I like going smaller here, btw, if we're going to 3b (I don't think this sizing is that small).

    As for calling the flop, I don't see how the combinatrics can support this. Do we think he's doing this with 99? AJ? 18 combos of hands that crush us is a lot to offset when his opening range is so slim to begin with (much less open/flatting range, much less open/flatting then c/r'ing the flop range).
  8. #8
    griffey24's Avatar
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    Ok I don't mean to advocate rampant 3betting of JTo. Just saying that JTs is probably too good profitable calling that we shouldn't be 3b bluffing with it.

    I agree with surviva that ATo is a very good option, as it blocks a lot of his 4b range and flops decently.

    I disagree that JTo plays so terribly vs his continuing range though. What hands are people calling OOP in full ring these days? I only play 6-max online, so most of my full ring is live play. I'd imagine lots of ppl might be peeling pairs, and some AQ/KQ type stuff. I don't think JTo plays much differently than ATo in this situation. ATo prob has max 5% better equity than JTo vs a calling range, but also has the risk of getting dominated more often which likely counteracts that.

    Realistically both probably depend on how well you play postflop.
    Last edited by griffey24; 08-20-2013 at 08:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  9. #9
    surviva316's Avatar
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    ATo probably has worse equity against his continuing range than JTo. I really meant C in combination with A and B makes it so that there's not really anything that makes JTo a good hand to 3b light with. But I recognize that you probably weren't advocating it per se; I just thought it was a bad enough hand choice that it was worth pointing out, but I might be wrong about that.
  10. #10
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    I like your play. As played i fold now in flop. It´s a spot that he could represent a lot of things that one to you...The best play is probably fold
  11. #11
    I'd 3bet it to like $12-14, the villain woulda slowplayed anything better than AKo, so just valuebet him.
    If things were to magically revert to January 1st, 2003, only I could take everything I know now in terms of poker ability/knowledge, bonus clearing, etc., I think it's safe to say that it would be trivially easy to make over a million dollars.

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