Priorities

Hi everybody!

For a second, let's imagine a hypothetical situation where there are talented posters who are incapable of giving quality advice in a welcoming or friendly way. You might say it is unfortunate these talented individuals carry around such blackness in their hearts, fuck you that's beside the point, and still my hypothetical, so bear with me.

Would you choose to castrate or remove these talented posters in favor of civility, or is it worth wading through pits of shit to find gold? What would be more beneficial to the forum?

in a show of solidarity i'm with #rh

This poll should show who voted for which and be mandatory to answer.

Wait, does that mean you're thinking of penalizing jerks for being jerks?

I'm all for freedom of speech here. We're all grown ups who can decide to listen to whomever we like and ignore those who we don't like. People post hands and that means that person is opening themselves up to getting criticized and torn to shreds. That person shouldn't take anything personally regardless of how harsh the criticism might be, because it's not about his person, but his game.

Sure, some great players are crap teachers, but I'm sure we're grown up enough to figure out for ourselves what's constructive and useful to our game, and what is not. I vote no to coddling and over-moderating.

I'm curious to know what brought this about in the first place, d0zer?

Voted option 2 in case it's not obvious.

I don't understand the blackness of their hearts but it absolutely makes zero sense to have no quality posters > shitty players who are nice. It's just true. I appreciate nice people over the others any day of the week but when it comes to learning something then it shouldn't matter.

nine inch nails informs me the inside of my heart is black and hollow and cold.

Grow some balls and accept that once in a while you're going to get kicked in those balls. When M2M, Redzilla, Bikes, P4's, dozer, stacks or any other mid/high stakes players wander into the BC you take what you can get and ask for another kick in the balls. Or we can all just sit around here and circle jerk each other like a bunch of blind leading the blind masturbators and be all nicey nice.

Anything is better than regulation.
Quality is why we're here. (my vote)
That said, civility is just too important to ignore. If you're trying to help, then consider that help is usually only received as help if it is presented with kindness. If the only way to make a point is to be harsh, then please be harsh.

Never look a gift horse in the mouth

Nothing in life worth having is free



But on a serious note, give any of them a reason why they should help?

Originally Posted by jyms

Never look a gift horse in the mouth

Nothing in life worth having is free



But on a serious note, give any of them a reason why they should help?

1) good point, horses bite... and they have bad breath, too.
2) fresh air is worth having, life is worth having, conversations are worth having...

3) Because they choose to do so.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

3) Because they choose to do so.

But that's the point, they are choosing not to do so because of how they feel they are being treated. How does that affect you, me and all the other BC and strat posting regs on this site?

Honestly I think the whole thing comes down to thick skin being needed on both sides. Imma dick sometimes. If someone doesn't want to help me or be helped by me because of that fact then so be it. If this whole thread is about quality posters might stop posting here because sometimes people stand up for themselves then, imo, so be it.

If someone calls me a fucktard because I posted something fucktardsish I'm pretty sure I'll always take that with a grain of salt and ask for jyms' proverbial second kick in the nuts. But if I think that somebody's wrong and they came at me like a dick then I'm gonna tell them like a dick. If that's not ok then bring on the banhammer. I don't really want to be a part of an FTR where I can't speak the truth.

Originally Posted by supa

Honestly I think the whole thing comes down to thick skin being needed on both sides. Imma dick sometimes. If someone doesn't want to help me or be helped by me because of that fact then so be it. If this whole thread is about quality posters might stop posting here because sometimes people stand up for themselves then, imo, so be it.

This is so far from what's happening it's not even close. The "quality posters" are being told how they should be posting towards others and have had posts deleted by the administration. They are basically being told what they can or can't do when it comes to their "advice"

Originally Posted by jyms

This is so far from what's happening it's not even close. The "quality posters" are being told how they should be posting towards others and have had posts deleted by the administration. They are basically being told what they can or can't do when it comes to their "advice"

Why? This is silly. I don't think anybody's any worse then when I joined. Every new player who has ever made it through the initial hazings has become a better player in the long run. Those who haven't made it were never gonna make it anyway. If you can't handle the little bit of bullshit that comes along with learning here then you're never gonna be able to handle the much more intense stress poker brings.

Weed 'em out.

Originally Posted by supa

Why?

Weed 'em out.

preaching to the choir ITT

I voted for quality posters....
But in reality there are always quality players who are shitheads when they post....its not quality, its just "internet courage" where everyones dick is big when typing into the monitor.

A quality player who posts into a thread "fuck you played that bad" is not quality. Its one thing if a quality reg does that to a micro reg who understands each other and they both know there will be further discussion but it doesnt help new posters who dont understand the dynamic.

If the purpose is to grow the site then you must be kind especially with language barriers. If the purpose is to stay "smaller" and help a finite amount of poker players then being a dickhead probably wont matter.

Would those that voted civility let us know so we know who needs kids gloves and hand holding?

11 to 11?

11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by jyms

Would those that voted civility let us know so we know who needs kids gloves and hand holding?

And let us know who to thank for letting FTR die.

Guys, remember that this is a hypothetical situation and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.

Originally Posted by jyms

Would those that voted civility let us know so we know who needs kids gloves and hand holding?

why are you being a dick for no reason? do you have a problem?

17-13?? Ok, I quit too

Originally Posted by simpledude16

why are you being a dick for no reason? do you have a problem?

watching what some would consider part of their life fall to pieces could be considered a problem.

I wish those voting would chime in. I'm not opposed to being more civil but voted quality.

There are definitely people (higher stakes regs) that rub me the wrong way with their conceited tone but I choose to accept their teachings and know that I'd never befriend them in real life. Who cares.

Civility offers no benefit. Quality, in any form, may offer benefit.

Not close :0

I'm always for quality, but are these two really mutually exclusive?

Why so fragile ego?

Take what anyone who knows what they're talking about is willing to give you.

Where is the "I don't give a shit" option? Both "styles" are fine since different people learn in different ways. Some want sugar coating, some want harsh reality. If they (new readers/posters) truly want to learn, they'll overlook the un-preferred style of the poster(s) they read.

Free market shit, let it work itself out and such.

It's about time Pascal (or gmml or somebody) chimes in, IMO.

Originally Posted by eugmac

It's about time Pascal (or gmml or somebody) chimes in, IMO.

this ^

i'd like to know what's going on here.

i joined FTR (and remain here) because i want to improve as a poker player. I need the advice and insights of the 'quality' posters to do this.

I have been here long enough to know that some of them have their...errmm...idiosyncrasies, and to take all that with a pinch salt.

[tell the truth, it's kinda entertaining too]

But if FTR is keen to increase membership/traffic to this site, there is a valid concern about how the noobie is likely to react to the perceived hostility here. Vinland put it better than i'm doing here.

FWIW - i voted Quality, but i don't think the situation is black and white.

Ideally both, but quality for me if I have to choose - you shouldn't be on an internet forum if you can't handle incivility.

Incivility really isn't a problem for FTR in any case. The community spirit and quality of advice continues to be far superior to 2p2.

Can I vote for useless cuntery no good advice hidden amungst it. I'm not here to learn I just want to get my cry on.



*edits* who are the 17 pussies that go for niceties over good learning!!! Internet outrage

Not a single person who voted for civility will admit it. Pathetic.

I guess it really doesn't matter to you because you aren't here to learn how to be poker players. You won't be here a year from now or probably even a month from now. You can't be. If the way people treat you at this site is that big an issue to you then you will never be able to handle the stresses of playing poker.

You will quit. Essentially you already have. It's just a matter of time.

Were all here to better ourselves at playing poker.To be in a community of some what friends and family.To enjoy each other freedom of speech and to understand that at most times it's not personnel.People opinions is just that,there opinion.
Enjoy life and enjoy our forum.
Were FTR and were here to stay.

What mod did what to who?

Who is refusing to post?

Originally Posted by rong

What mod did what to who?

Who is refusing to post?

Apparently it's not that. Like jyms said, they are being told how to post and posts are being deleted if they don't fall into our new managements lovey, fluffy idea of what is appropriate.

I won't go into who but some of the best have already quit.

What? Go into it!

Is this why m2m left? Who else?

Also, if this is down to pascal and this thread is someones idea of challenging him, this is pretty shitty.

Either way, more details needed. What the fuck is with the secrecy? If its down to a particular mod then this thread is shitty regArdless of whether people are named. Just spit it out now.

Quality.

I've always been grateful that people take the time to post and comment on hands/blogs, it's not their job or anything like that.

Some people I like more than others, but I'll still read any advice given.

m2m's blog has gone . Who else has left?

Originally Posted by rong

Also, if this is down to pascal and this thread is someones idea of challenging him, this is pretty shitty.

Please stop creating conspiracy theories out of nothing, this is a hypothetical question that interests me because it's been an ongoing theme in many poker forums beyond ftr.

Let me tell you bros a cool ftr story from years ago, the names changed to protect the innocent.

I posted a thread where I played some hands rather questionably, and a respected high stakes player, let's call him "mitch", posted a rather harsh, terse critique of my play. A friend of mine "bitterlemon" took issue with the tone of this high stakes player, and wrote a long angry response in the thread. A moderator sent bitterlemon a PM explaining how mitch is an extremely well respected poster, and that his jimmies should not be overly rustled because mitch is an extremely valued poster and we all learned a lot from him. The implication of course being that the information he provided was more than worth the caustic tone he dished the information out with. Bitterlemon didn't take kindly to this, feeling that mitch should be able to provide this information out freely in a a nicer way, but ultimately the decision of the moderator was final, and lemon's further angry retorts were deleted.

So that got me to thinking, what's better for the forum: A more friendly, heavily moderated environment that will attract more people, but alienate the people giving the best advice? That might be better for the forum as it may generate more traffic from new members and ultimately make it more money, but it's obviously worse for the people who are really dedicated to improving their poker skills.

Another question is, if a heavily moderated environment chases off the core "old guard", will the goal of generating more traffic actually be achieved, or will that create a feedback loop where other members stop finding value in the forum and stop contributing, and then new members don't have anything to draw on and the forum slowly dies.

I don't know the answer to these questions, I'm just thinking aloud and apparently have struck some nerves...

Originally Posted by rong

What? Go into it!

Is this why m2m left? Who else?

Also, if this is down to pascal and this thread is someones idea of challenging him, this is pretty shitty.

Either way, more details needed. What the fuck is with the secrecy? If its down to a particular mod then this thread is shitty regArdless of whether people are named. Just spit it out now.

Nothing to go into. The little bit that I think I know isn't my story to tell. Sorry, I was out of line by saying something I don't really know.

Hopefully somebody (Pascal maybe?) will come and clear some things up.

A+ usage of Mitch and Bitterlemon

lol....we have new management? Seriously? Whats the story behind that?

Please stop creating conspiracy theories out of nothing, this is a hypothetical question that interests me because it's been an ongoing theme in many poker forums beyond ftr.

d0zer,

lol nobody believes you that this isn't specific to a very current ftr behind-the-scenes situation. bikes has basically confirmed this...

Originally Posted by eugmac

d0zer,

lol nobody believes you that this isn't specific to a very current ftr behind-the-scenes situation. bikes has basically confirmed this...

Well it's a good thing that I don't care what lol nobody believes. You must keep in mind that the human mind is wired to pick out patterns, desperately trying to order and organize an otherwise chaotic and random universe. Interesting coincidences do happen, I can't speak for bikes.

The human mind is also wired to lap up drama like a starving kitten, but I ask you kindly to keep your fabricated dramas out of my otherwise perfectly legitimate intellectual exploration into forum dynamics

uh huh.

Lolzzzzzzz

pm's are pm's for a reason

Fuck civility you cunts.

Originally Posted by eugmac

uh huh.

There may be some similarities between this premise and real situations, such as the true story I told earlier, but this thread is obviously a hypothetical as there isn't anyone who is actually incapable of giving quality advice in a welcoming or friendly way. That's just silly.

Do you have any more smart passive aggressive comments to ruin my otherwise great thread? I kindly ask you to satiate your vagina's need for drama elsewhere

Not sure why this poll is so close. I guess anybody making money at this game probly SHOULDN'T want to help people play better. It's charity, when bad players play better, the good players lose money. Should be happy anybody better than you is helping at all. Really they should sit back silently taking us fishees monies right? You don't like how they give you advice?? Cry about it and lose some more. I'm sure the good players don't mind except they feel it becomes a waste of their time and charity.

Wow, been home for the weekend and stumbled across this thread on the train. Just got back in so going to reply to some this hypothetical situation as well as a couple of actual situations which have been thrown about in this thread. This post might be quite long, sorry.

It's pretty obvious that this hypothetical situation has come from a real situation. I want to say that I've made a few mistakes in my time here and I've apologized a number of times to anyone I've pissed off unintentionally. I hope these apologies can be accepted and that I can work with everyone on this forum, both the moderation team and regulars, to continue to improve the forum and the community.

Onto the thread. It's definitely the most one sided opening post and poll I've ever seen, and it makes the situation seem like something it is not. It would probably have been easier to just make a post saying "DO YOU WANT FTR TO DIE?". To briefly cover the background story which lead to this thread, I posted a comment in the mod forum saying that I'd been told by potential members that they found FTR unwelcoming and hostile sometimes. I also deleted a couple of posts I felt were inappropriate (I'll have to talk more about this later by the looks of things anyway). At no point did I ever ask anyone to leave or even say that advice should be given in a welcoming and friendly way. My main point was that I've seen evidence over the last couple of months of crossing the line of "harsh learning" and becoming inappropriate. Given this is all hypothetical I'll make up a couple of examples. For example, there's no problem with "what the fuck were you thinking? why did you make your 3bet that size?" or even "why would you ever do this?". I do have a problem with posting something like "you're so bad at poker lol" or "haha how can you be so stupid to do this?" with no attempt made to further the discussion or let them learn. I think there's also been some evidence of posters being insulted regularly despite not ever really reacting and continuing to try and participate despite this, which makes the forum look really bad from a neutral perspective.

The poll gives two options - agree with d0zer or watch FTR burn. Why can't there be a 3rd option? Tone it down a tiny bit in the 1% of occasions where it crosses the line, and the rest of the time carry on as normal? To me, that doesn't sound unreasonable, and especially not as unreasonable as this thread makes it out to be. This is what I was suggested, and I guess it's been misunderstood.

But that's the point, they are choosing not to do so because of how they feel they are being treated. How does that affect you, me and all the other BC and strat posting regs on this site?

I've apologized and will apologize again to anyone who feels they have been mistreated. I don't want anyone to stop posting because of something I've said or done. And if anyone thinks "hey bro, stop doing that I don't like it" then I'd happily listen to a PM or have a Skype conversation and change my viewpoint. That hasn't happened yet though, although I hope it will. I also hope you'll look over everything I've done and see there's been some overreacting. I'd like to work with everyone on this forum to improve the community and I hope you'll all decide to support me.

This is so far from what's happening it's not even close. The "quality posters" are being told how they should be posting towards others and have had posts deleted by the administration. They are basically being told what they can or can't do when it comes to their "advice"

I think I should probably approach this one directly. "Administration" = me. Posts deleted makes it sound like its far more than the 2 situations in the last 2 months. The post which kicked all this off was just an inappropriate post on a poster in a thread outside the strategy/community forums with no other content which was highly out of character. GMML told me that I should have talked to the mod or posted something in the mod forum which I didn't know/realize until that point so I sent him a PM stating the reason why I deleted the post saying I hope he understood and saying I was available by PM if he wanted to discuss it. The deletion isn't relevant to the OP because it wasn't anything about giving advice nor was it in the strategy forums.

Going back to the actual content of the thread following the poll, I'll pull out a couple of quotes which I agree with. Honestly, I think the thread - if anything - has probably surprised other people a lot more than it surprised me. Given the wording in the OP and the poll of it being one extreme or the other with no possibility for a reasonable middle ground, and some of the posts about the results in here, I'm impressed that "Civility" got 18 votes and the fact a lot of votes for "quality" were qualified with posts. It might just be people like clicking the top result though.

But if I think that somebody's wrong and they came at me like a dick then I'm gonna tell them like a dick. If that's not ok then bring on the banhammer. I don't really want to be a part of an FTR where I can't speak the truth.

I'm always for quality, but are these two really mutually exclusive?

But if FTR is keen to increase membership/traffic to this site, there is a valid concern about how the noobie is likely to react to the perceived hostility here.

Couple of last things.

Apparently it's not that. Like jyms said, they are being told how to post and posts are being deleted if they don't fall into our new managements lovey, fluffy idea of what is appropriate.

This is wrong, and I have no idea where this has come from. This thread seems to have promoted the idea that I (or someone else) is going around mass deleting posts which don't end in "kisses and hugs". It's just wrong.

So that got me to thinking, what's better for the forum: A more friendly, heavily moderated environment that will attract more people, but alienate the people giving the best advice?

My comment on the forum sometimes coming across to potential members as unwelcoming was made on Friday night, and it isn't something I've been chasing around the forum for the last two months - it was just a comment. There has been no heavy moderating by me in this forum, and I strongly disagree with any post that suggests there has.

What I've said is being blown out of proportion and if I didn't have all the information I'd probably agree with you guys given what's written in the thread given how it's being portrayed. It's interesting to read this thread starting at the top and see how it's developed.

I'll end my post here, it's long enough, with two last points. 1 - if anyone wants to talk to me about this, I'm reachable by PM or Skype. I'm happy to talk, apart from private mod stuff (what posts were deleted, what exactly was said, etc, it's not my place to discuss that). I'd also like to talk about this hypothetical situation - in confidence - and especially with regulars and long time posters about what they think is acceptable or if anything should go full stop. 2 - I hope some of you can see where I'm coming from, and see that this hypothetical situation, and what I've actually suggested/done, have just been taken in the wrong way and confirmation bias used to make me seem like I'm trying to fuck with FTR. I think FTR is great the way it is, and I'm not suggesting any mass changes, just some small improvements to make the forum a better community.

Originally Posted by Pascal

Onto the thread. It's definitely the most one sided opening post and poll I've ever seen, and it makes the situation seem like something it is not.

Perhaps you're finding similarities to this thread and the situation you find yourself in because it's weighing heavily on your mind, but I assure you, my hypothetical situation is just that: hypothetical. As I've already stated, it's preposterous to think that this situation would ever exist in reality as nobody is incapable of being a dick. We are all capable of civility and in reality, of course these aren't mutually exclusive choices -- I just wanted to know which the BC values more if forced to choose.

As for the accusations of my poll being "one-sided", I need offer no further proof than the poll results to demonstrate that the poll is fair and balanced

I think various posts in this thread move it away from being a hypothetical situation, especially given the timing, and if I addressed it as a merely hypothetical situation I think a lot of people would be hammering my door for answers

apology accepted

Thick skin works both ways. While people shouldn't cry about being called a retard, people also shouldn't cry when their posts are deemed mean spirited or whatever by admin. I dunno what the fuss is about.

Sure, I'd rather have people say to me ...
"ong old chap, with all due respect, and I have a lot of respect for you, I feel that the line you took here is somewhat less than optimal, and here's why...",
than get something like...
"just fucking lol, why the fuck are you calling turn?",
but the latter is still helpful, and is appreciated more than no comment.

People should remember that no-one is paid to dish out advice in forums, and when good players are giving advice, strictly speaking this is -ev for them, it's hardly optimal to teach your opponents to not be retards.

People should also remember that mods have gotta mod. Pascal is a friendly guy, goes out of his way to accommodate noobs, and appears to work hard, starting discussions, helping people, getting involved in promotions etc... even if he made a mistake deleting said posts, at least respect the fact that he did it because he felt it was for the benefit of ftr. If you disagree, fair enough, discuss it, but he's not deleting posts to be an arsehole to people.

From my point of view, pascal is doing a great job. If people are leaving because they don't like their posts being subject to moderation, well big deal. If people don't participate in discussion because they don't like being told they suck, well fuck them too. I feel most of us here have thick skin and can be brutally honest with each other and not get upset about it.

Thick skin works both ways. While people shouldn't cry about being called a retard, people also shouldn't cry when their posts are deemed mean spirited or whatever by admin. I dunno what the fuss is about.

Yes.

Alright, who hijacked ong's account?

Ong, you suck at poker, please get better. I lose interest in the gauntlet once I beat you.

omg can someone please ban dan for being mean to me please? I can't take this shit any more. omfg.

I was doing just fine until I lost a bvb flip AK vs 99 and then spewed at gizmo after he called my raise with crap the laggy twat (still mad).

Anyway, it's all good, isn't it best 8 results over the ten games? I'm not in trouble yet.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

omg can someone please ban dan for being mean to me please?

Sure can. Been looking for a good reason to ban him anyways! Worst vampire ever.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Thick skin works both ways. While people shouldn't cry about being called a retard, people also shouldn't cry when their posts are deemed mean spirited or whatever by admin. I dunno what the fuss is about.

Sure, I'd rather have people say to me ...
"ong old chap, with all due respect, and I have a lot of respect for you, I feel that the line you took here is somewhat less than optimal, and here's why...",
than get something like...
"just fucking lol, why the fuck are you calling turn?",
but the latter is still helpful, and is appreciated more than no comment.

People should remember that no-one is paid to dish out advice in forums, and when good players are giving advice, strictly speaking this is -ev for them, it's hardly optimal to teach your opponents to not be retards.

People should also remember that mods have gotta mod. Pascal is a friendly guy, goes out of his way to accommodate noobs, and appears to work hard, starting discussions, helping people, getting involved in promotions etc... even if he made a mistake deleting said posts, at least respect the fact that he did it because he felt it was for the benefit of ftr. If you disagree, fair enough, discuss it, but he's not deleting posts to be an arsehole to people.

From my point of view, pascal is doing a great job. If people are leaving because they don't like their posts being subject to moderation, well big deal. If people don't participate in discussion because they don't like being told they suck, well fuck them too. I feel most of us here have thick skin and can be brutally honest with each other and not get upset about it.

I think I'm in the minority here but I agree with all of this post.

I think you're doing an overall good job, pascal.

So basically what's happening is that redzilla, and myself and for some parts M2M aren't really happy with the ongoing stuff lately and for the most part we're all done posting on FTR, at least for a long while.

I could go on and on about why but for the most part we're pretty unhappy and posting any kind of strat publicly in 2012 is -EV. Also we all wanna focus on the most important thing you can do in poker. get better and get rich obv.

None of us harbor any ill will towards FTR because FTR helped us make friends and get good at poker and gl to all of you.

Well that's just swell.

FWIW I think a very public discussion (read abusive argument) should be had to get to the bottom of this or at least entertain the masses.

Originally Posted by rong

FWIW I think a very public discussion (read abusive argument) should be had to get to the bottom of this or at least entertain the masses.

Originally Posted by d0zer

I kindly ask you to satiate your vagina's need for drama elsewhere

hah.

I thought you were done posting here?

If successful people keep posting, that's better for the forum, but if successful people would stop being assholes, that's better for the world. Also: "I don't need to help these guys so I'm going to be an asshole when I do" is pretty terrible logic. Being a good poker player shouldn't excuse you from being shitty to people, but it certainly makes it more tolerable in a trade off kind of way. Ldo learning poker is 20x more important than people being nice in this environment.

I'd imagine this thread exists because new members have been complaining to admins etc, and been put off. Traffic is obviously a concern, but so is is quality - so this presents quite a dilemma for the running of FTR.

Edit: just saw Bikes' semi explanation. Why not just be open about what you actually mean for those of us who don't tune in regularly for the bitchy drama side of things.

Originally Posted by Carroters

If successful people keep posting, that's better for the forum, but if successful people would stop being assholes, that's better for the world. Also: "I don't need to help these guys so I'm going to be an asshole when I do" is pretty terrible logic. Being a good poker player shouldn't excuse you from being shitty to people, but it certainly makes it more tolerable in a trade off kind of way. Ldo learning poker is 20x more important than people being nice in this environment.

I'd imagine this thread exists because new members have been complaining to admins etc, and been put off. Traffic is obviously a concern, but so is is quality - so this presents quite a dilemma for the running of FTR.

Edit: just saw Bikes' semi explanation. Why not just be open about what you actually mean for those of us who don't tune in regularly for the bitchy drama side of things.

Originally Posted by kmind

Originally Posted by Carroters

If successful people keep posting, that's better for the forum, but if successful people would stop being assholes, that's better for the world. Also: "I don't need to help these guys so I'm going to be an asshole when I do" is pretty terrible logic. Being a good poker player shouldn't excuse you from being shitty to people, but it certainly makes it more tolerable in a trade off kind of way. Ldo learning poker is 20x more important than people being nice in this environment.

I'd imagine this thread exists because new members have been complaining to admins etc, and been put off. Traffic is obviously a concern, but so is is quality - so this presents quite a dilemma for the running of FTR.

Edit: just saw Bikes' semi explanation. Why not just be open about what you actually mean for those of us who don't tune in regularly for the bitchy drama side of things.

Do I really need to go find the playground post?

The truth is that the rate of new pros has slowed globally, shit aint as easy as it used to. Good players are doing worse now. There is a lot of extra bitterness in the poker community in general. Without actual accomplishments people still receive validation via this forum from personality(outlandish remarks).

In the good ole days we had a new great player develop out of here at 2-3 a year, maybe more. Now we haven't had a pro since m2m, correct me if im wrong.

WTF does this have to do with the poll? Well, no one gives a flying fuck if someone calls you a fucking moron, if because of this one statement you move up a stake. Now the amount of ridicule you have to take to move up a stake is significantly more.

For the time being we are in the horse and buggy business. And that motherfucker Ford is being a dick. In the near future, peak oil will hit and buggy will be doing okay once again and then shit will change. Until then, I would recommend you try to survive, cause you can't thrive by being just nice.

Originally Posted by supa

Do I really need to go find the playground post?

Can haz playground?

So Bikes, what are you so unhappy about other than a post being deleted because you called someone a retard? It's better for the soul not to be callin' people retards anyways.

Btw I'm totally out of the loop these days FTR wise, but from what I've seen Pascal seems to be doing a pretty good job.

Carrot, I'm not sure what your motives for trying to dig "bitchy drama" out of bikes are, and I'm less sure why you would think this is storytime for "those who don't tune in regularly", but knowing bikes, that's about the last reason he'd decide to come back and start posting again

Hope that answers all your questions!

Nope, those are answers to different questions than the ones I asked.

I just thought Bikes might want to say why he's decided to leave the forum. Not much anyone can do based on the reasons that have been given in this thread, which are basically none. I certainly don't want to dig up any bitchy drama. I just wonder what the "ongoing stuff" is that has, according to Bikes, caused three of the more respected poker players to leave the forum. Seems like kind of a big deal and what better place to talk about it than on the thread that's seemingly been made due to whatever this ongoing stuff is.

If FTR's members/admin etc have somehow upset Bikes and co, I don't think it's too much to ask why that is.