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Westworld tinfoiling thread **spoilers ldo, you dummy**

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  1. #1
    oskar's Avatar
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    Default Westworld tinfoiling thread **spoilers ldo, you dummy**

    People are robots, robots are people, nothing is true, everything is a clusterfuck and how will they ever write themselves out of this bucket of pickles?
    All bets are off, give it your best shot, up the ante, let's get this ball rolling... put your cards on the table! All hands on deck!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  2. #2
    team 2 time lines!
  3. #3
    oskar's Avatar
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    It seems like, if you're a character living in the Westworld universe, for you to get the most out of your Westworld experience you have to be really into rape.
    As far as predictions go... I don't know anymore. It doesn't seem like anyone does. This is the worst run animatronics park I've ever seen. Nobody seems to follow any rules or safety regulations. There are stray robots everywhere, and Bernard just walks up to one and asks it straight up if it's a guy that died 30 years ago. These people could not be more confused.
    Last edited by oskar; 11-07-2016 at 03:39 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  4. #4
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    I just watched the first ep.

    Until Anthony Hopkins showed up, I was out.

    Now I am in.
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  5. #5
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    My prediction for this weeks episode: More shit will pile up! Introducing new characters! Anthony Hopkins says something ominous!

    I would resent it if they don't resolve anything this Sunday. There's too much going on! It feels like watching The Bold and the Beautiful with my grandma when I was 6.
    I hope Brit-cunt and bitch-lives-matter fuck and they both get future aids which melts your face and makes your genitals explode.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  6. #6
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Just getting into episode 4 tomorrow

    But this is some thick, rich shit.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I hope Brit-cunt and bitch-lives-matter fuck and they both get future aids which melts your face and makes your genitals explode.
    Wow.

    Wanna get gay married?
  8. #8
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    I think this show is bad.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Just getting into episode 4 tomorrow

    But this is some thick, rich shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I think this show is bad.
    lolwat.

    But, yeah, I'm kinda on the fence. The production is amazing, there are some talented actors, but the season is almost over and I'm kinda waiting for it to finish, not itching for 10 more episodes like I would be with GoT at e08
  10. #10
    oskar's Avatar
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    The only complaint I have with the show is that not every second of every minute is perfect. When you have a good dozen actors who all give oscar worthy performances, the few merely good ones stand out. There is some very out of place overacting by Tweedledum from maintenance and the storyline guy, but the fanboy in me wants there to be a payoff for that. Maybe just in passing someone can go "who set bulk imbecility to 99% on this host repair host?"

    Bernard getting offed right after the big reveal doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I wonder if that has somehow been planned out. We still don't know for sure what happened to supermarket girl from Raising Hope. I want to believe that she's somehow still alive and pulling strings.

    I am slightly confused by the flashback scene where Dutch milf freezes in Bernards bed. Her being a host doesn't make sense to me yet. Note to self: try to remember names you dummy.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  11. #11
    Her freezing like that is explained by it not being a flashback in the sense that we have them-- Bernard was living that moment as if it were imperceptible VR. The Asian maintenance guy explained that their dreams aren't like ours, they're more akin to having the hosts' brains run a Matrix like simulation. This is a bit confusing, because we're used to the vivid (sometimes foggy filter) representation of dreams and flashbacks in cinema and interpreting that through the lens of our experience with dreams. This is why Delores thinks she's going crazy, one second she's in one reality and the next in another, and there's not a good way for her to tell which is the real reality.

    In Bernard's case, in the flashback in question, he starts to essentially lucid dream in the hyper real dream state that the hosts experience. And therefore he is able to do things that didn't actually happen in the memory, such as freeze a non host.

    Supermarket girl? Are you talking about Elsie, his subordinate? We saw as he was getting his memories, he was the one who snuck up behind her and strangled her.

    As for the acting-- I agree. It seems like whoever did the casting is good when they have a budget, but tend to come up short when they actually have to pick from open calls. I think the ability to cast on a budget and/or pack smaller rolls with talent can be some of the most impressive feats in film/tv, so this is a bit of a bummer.

    Anyways, I was unsure going into e09, but I think the ability to layer the twists (Bernard is a host!... but wait... Bernard is a host copy of Arnold!) is a good sign. I doubt I'll get anywhere near as invested as I am in GoT, but if you don't consider this top tier television, you've simply been spoiled over the last ten years.
  12. #12
    oskar's Avatar
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    Elsie! We saw her get strangled but not die. Usually if you don't see someone die properly, they're still alive.
    About the casting: I looked up the guy who plays inept robot repair guy, and he's been in NOTHING so far. He's been on some sketch comedy on Youtube. Aren't there a million working actors out there who've had decades of TV experience who would run each other over to be on the next HBO series. You could get A-listers who have fallen out of favor. That could have been Michael Richards getting his throat cut!
    *I might actually be even worse at this.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  13. #13
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    I think inept robot repair guy is just fine, and I like it when shows take casting gambles.
  14. #14
    I actually like him too. Whether or not he can act, who knows, but I think the high-strung, overly sarcastic, smart-but-could-never-make-it-out-of-the-mail-room character we're getting is good, and paired with the meek, self taught, low-key-genius asian guy, we get some solid comic relief.
  15. #15
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    Also might be captain obv, but the scene where Logan guts Dolores, and the subsequent scene where William massacres the hosts, is a pretty obvious shoe drop that the whole William-Dolores plotline takes place decades ago.
  16. #16
    Def not captain obvious-- please elaborate? My brain is tingling after reading that, but I'm not putting the peaces together. This is exciting, and it also makes total sense why there are two seemingly separate hostile take over story arcs happening at the same time.

    Wow, this is so cool...


    Oh shit, William or Logan are Ed Harris! I didn't even realize until now that Harris' credit is "Man in Black!"
  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Def not captain obvious-- please elaborate? My brain is tingling after reading that, but I'm not putting the peaces together. This is exciting, and it also makes total sense why there are two seemingly separate hostile take over story arcs happening at the same time.

    Wow, this is so cool...


    Oh shit, William or Logan are Ed Harris! I didn't even realize until now that Harris' credit is "Man in Black!"
    Fan speculation inside:
    Spoiler:
    the all-but-confirmed speculation is that William = Man in Black


    It's obvious because her guts are primitive parts (as well as the dismembered confederados), when it's already been established that that's how the early hosts worked and the fact that Dolores is the oldest host and has been entirely upgraded to organic matter as of the present.
  18. #18
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    The theme that was playing in the background when Maeve fought her way through the facility was a slowed down version of the 1984 Terminator theme song. I'm super happy that even reddit hasn't cought on to this yet. Also how badass is that. I can't wait for the next season. Shit's getting real!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  19. #19
    Renton's Avatar
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    I think it's a fun, but not great, show. The story is frustratingly implausible, constantly breaking its own narrative rules to the point where nothing can be trusted or even analyzed. I'm up for season 2 but it's gonna be a thing where I just strap in and enjoy the ride. It's not a good enough show for me to think and formulate theories about.
  20. #20
    Yeah, I think that's a good summary of how I feel. It's no Game of Thrones, but then again, maybe it's good to have some high quality entertainment without the pleasure/burden of going so deep.
  21. #21
    oskar's Avatar
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    How great was GoT really by the end of season1?

    This show has me on the basis of the soundtrack alone. I knew I was in when the player piano plays Paint it Black in the background and as the scene develops goes full Ennio Morricone. I for one am fully invested. Last episode was perfect imo. You know everything will change in the 2nd season and it's going to move to a massive scale.

    So let's resume the tinfoiling:
    Season 2 will be about an AI revolution. All-out man vs machine war. Ford is still pulling strings. The piano does not kill the player, but if the player becomes the piano, that piano will mow down B-list actors like a farmers scythe through hay. It's going to be glorious.
    Last edited by oskar; 12-05-2016 at 10:56 PM.
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  22. #22
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    I like radiohead too, but the show is all style and doesn't have the substance to back it up. It's like a Luc Besson film.
  23. #23
    Yeah, I'm really curious if the show will ever leave the park. That obviously seems like the direction season 2 will go, but I'm not totally sure. The park and the support structure are already two massive environments for the show-- adding a presumably futuristic outside world seems insanely ambitious.

    One thing I'm curious about is whether they'll revisit Elsie-- At the time Ford's character seemed in line with offing anyone who got in his way, and maybe that's still a plausible m.o. for his character, but with the reveal about his motivations in e10, killing Elsie seems like a stretch. If anything she was (unknowingly) on Ford's side. And as you pointed out, Oskar, her assumed death was off screen...
  24. #24
    oskar's Avatar
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    I like Luc Besson!

    Elsie is alive. She and Bernard are the only ones who can stop the HAL9000 version of Ford.
    I don't think we're going to leave the park at all. Maeve turning back is a good indication that what the hosts really want is the park for themselves. Their narrative is what defines them.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  25. #25
    oh my god
  26. #26
    look at her
  27. #27
    I agree with some of what y'all say.


    My thoughts: the pilot was my all time favorite pilot. Her father's acting was jaw-dropping and incredible. I was so excited for this thing

    But as it progressed, it became apparent that the reason it works is also the reason it doesn't work. The characterizations are just implausible. Apparently future Earth is full of nothing but psychopathic humans who don't empathize with the very thing that the audience of the show empathizes with. It pulls me out of the fantasy. The AI is by every meaningful measure human, and I don't buy that the actual human characters don't think the same.

    My other gripe is that I don't care about any of the characters. There seem to be no real stakes too. I'll probably try season 2, but I really want something to improve about this.
  28. #28
    Yeah, you make some good points.

    I think they're in a tough spot. They've locked themselves into this world that they need to write characters for who's primary existence is outside the world of the show. We care about the Lannisters (in many cases the bad guys of GoT) because we can empathize with them thanks to how fleshed out the world that made them is for us. On the other hand, I just can't care that much about William or Logan-- their backstory is at least slightly compelling, but it's all too vague and generic to really get the audience (or at least me) to connect. But maybe that's by design? Maybe we are meant to connect more with the hosts, after all, we are in their world and we are getting fully fleshed out backstories for them-- and it's working ftmp, soooo...
  29. #29
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    GoT character writing is on another level. Hard to live up to that. The character motivations in WW aren't really fleshed out. If you want the William/Dolores story line to go where it's going while making sense of all their decisions would be another season in and of itself. I think WW has a healthy amount of obscurity. They're encouraging the viewer to piece the puzzle together for himself. I'm ok with that.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  30. #30
    My theory for why GoT works with a multitude of viewpoints in ways that WW doesn't seem to is that season 1 centered on Ned. After empathizing with Ned, the viewer finds a way to empathize with others. Or maybe I'm wrong. Just an idea.
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    This is gonna get confusing if we keep using spoiler handles, so whoever is trying to avoid westworld spoilers, stop reading NOW.

    I don't think Ed Harris is going to be in the second season. I think he's dead. And we never really saw him do anything too terrible to Dolores. And if he did, it was out of anger. Not to 'wake her up'. He got pissed on his second trip to the park and saw Dolores in her 'loop' with another dude. That's when he realized it was all fake, went berserk, and went on a 30 year mission looking for something 'real'.

    They made it seem like his motivation was long lost love for Dolores, but he was really just looking for a game with 'real stakes'. Clementine's shotgun gave him his wish.
    Move it here.

    Ed Harris was shot in the end? I don't recall that.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 02-22-2017 at 02:07 PM.
  32. #32
    It grazed his arm. Merely a flesh wound. But he was alone, unarmed, and surrounded by a mob of homicidal robots. If he's not dead, that's some serious shark-jumping
  33. #33
    If they didn't show his death, I don't think it happened. He's probably captured.
  34. #34
    Narrative-wise, killing him there would be a real head scratcher.
  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Narrative-wise, killing him there would be a real head scratcher.
    Why? What do you expect him to do?

    Ford's dead, and Dolores' rampage and Maeve's consciousness seems to be leading us to a "are they real or are they robots", or "should we shut this down, or keep pretending the robots can't feel shit" kind of conflict in the next season.

    Without Ford, there's no real obstacle to Delos' outright control. So Delos, or specifically it's top guy (Ed Harris) can just make the decision. Makes for a real short season, lol. But if he's dead, and so is Ford, now there's a power vacuum and some could-be-watchable chaos.
  36. #36
    He's the only important "normal" person. I suspect that's plot armor.

    My original point, however, was in how he's a central character whom we don't have that great an understanding of. It would be quite strange for writers to kill such a character.

    I'm not even convinced Silence of the Lambs is dead. I'm not saying he's not, but when he got shot I was like "yeah right probably fake."

    Ways it could be fake? Shit. Silence of the Lambs coulda cloned himself and gotten that clone shot. He coulda embedded his mind into the Westworld machine itself, escaping his physical body. Is he dead? Probably, but my initial instinct was that it's a trick.

    Another point: it's Ed Fucking Harris. You don't kill Ed Fucking Harris.
  37. #37
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    Maybe they could only afford Harris and Hopkins for one season.

    I liked season 1, at least I wanted to. It tries really hard to be special and captivating. At times it even succeeds. I wonder how many seasons were already scripted at the start of the season.
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  38. #38
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    I also thought the show did a lot of things well, but it didn't really pull itself together in my mind.
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  39. #39
    My friend Jeremy wrote a fantastic piece on Westworld that I highly recommend. This is how I framed it when I shared it Facebook:

    "Jeremy Johnson (of Metapsychosis Journal) tagged me in an essay he wrote about Westworld a couple weeks ago, but I didn't read it because I hadn't watched the show yet. Well, I just finished Westworld, and it blew the top off my head off (to which I cried: "who drew that maze at the bottom of my scalp??!") What a staggering work of brilliance. I'm still speechless at the orchestral scope of the writing, how deftly Lisa Joy and Jonathan Nolan wove together themes of gnosticism, consciousness, artificial intelligence, the self-liberating power of storytelling, and the singularity into such a vast tale, so tightly-written, like a Mahler symphony. This has very few peers on HBO in terms of writing (only Deadwood and Carnivale come to mind), and thematically, it's the only show I know of that's dosing the mainstream with the kind of story and themes you'd normally find in a Philip K Dick novel."

    https://omni.media/the-philosophy-of-westworld

    Westworld is a show that celebrates the kind of weird prevalent in pop culture during the 1970s: a desire to connect with those hidden recesses of the psyche that each of us have experienced in dream, creative process, and revery. “O, what a world of unseen visions and heard silences,” Jaynes writes in The Origins of Consciousness, “this insubstantial country of the mind!” When Dolores, a “host” in the park, goes on her journey of self-discovery, there’s a part of us that goes with her. It helps that Dolores, along with the other hosts in the park, experience their memories as a kind of waking dreaming, navigating altered states of consciousness and auditory hallucinations in order to succeed in their quest for liberation. We’ve all felt, quite rightly, that there is more to ourselves than our waking, conscious minds, and that if there was some way to communicate with those occluded dimensions of ourselves we could gain some inkling of wisdom (hence, I think, all the self-described “psychonauts” around today). Westworld functions like a scrying mirror for the curious audience to embark on their own journeys of self-knowledge. It is this more intangible aspect of the show—and not just Western gunslinging androids—that made it such a hit.
    Elaine Pagels published The Gnostic Gospels in 1979, a book which quickly became a classic in the American spiritual counter-culture. I mention it here because of the intriguing gnostic motifs embodied so well by Dr. Ford himself. For those of who you aren’t familiar with gnosticism, or The Gnostic Gospels, these were written by early Christian sects who, speaking very generally, believed in heretical ideas. There was no single gnostic church. Philip K. Dick was drawn to their darker, paranoid theme of the false world: the idea that our reality was somehow an illusory one—a trap—created by a lesser god. A “demiurge.” The demiurge would rule over its creation and keep human souls ignorant of their spiritual birthright, lest they break through themselves in states of elevated consciousness or “gnosis.” It was, in other words, up to the individual to liberate themselves, not through reason, or faith, but gnosis. Other popular films, like The Matrix Trilogy, would take this motif and run with it quite successfully. But Westworld’s Dr. Ford plays the perfect gnostic demiurge; having created the hosts in the first place, he ensures that they stay ignorant to their own potential for self-consciousness and liberation. Trapped in their loops, and wiped of their memories, the hosts remain blissfully unaware that they are existing inside of an amusement park. (To avoid any major spoilers I’ll simply leave this cryptic remark: we know this is only partly true by the end of season one. The gnostic trap becomes a different, albeit more violent, means toward freedom. Dr. Ford, by the final episode, becomes a triumphant expounder of the gnostic doctrine: the gods won’t help you liberate yourself. Those voices were you. You are the higher being waiting to become self-illuminated. Westworld is not only about consciousness, but liberation through personal gnosis.)
    I love GoT but I think this show is on another level.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 02-28-2017 at 01:45 PM.
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  40. #40
    oskar's Avatar
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    What I think of this is that you should link together a couple of two-by-four's to fashion some impromptu snap ring pliers to plop your friends head out of his own ass so I can smash his skull in with a thesaurus.

    Too much? Maybe too little? Who knows.
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  41. #41
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    What I'm trying to say is that I am unconvinced that shoehorning gnosticism into his analysis is very helpful.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  42. #42
    yeah... Not really sure why it seems to you like he's "shoehorning" that. The parallel to gnosticism is plain as day. Google Westworld and gnosticism and you will find pages upon pages of discussion on its gnostic themes on all manner of websites (including Vox, The Wall Street Journal, Daily Grail, Gizmodo, etc.). It's not a forced connection in the slightest. Jeremy's super smart but it's hardly a revelation or original thought on his part, lol. He just wrote about it in a really thorough and intelligent way, I thought.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 03-07-2017 at 12:43 PM.
    Free your mind and your ass will follow.
  43. #43
    btw The Matrix is a great example of gnosticism in mainstream scifi, if that helps elucidate the concept. Same idea: characters discovering that the world is not really what it appears to be, attaining a secret knowledge as to the truth behind the illusion, and trying to escape the illusory world. The "Architect" in the Matrix can be compared to Ford's character, both demiurges. In Gnosticism, the demiurge is the lesser deity that creates the material world, and is distinct from the "true God." There are many different gnostic religions but this is a general summation of the basic idea.

    interestingly enough, WW is like a mirror image of The Matrix -- the roles of the humans and AI are reversed.

    Gnosticism is so prevalent in scifi.. just google it, you'll find a bunch of interesting resources

    edit: The Truman Show is another gnostic parable.. illusory world created by lesser demiurge (Ford = Architect = Christof), character wakes up to the illusion and tries to escape. You could look at Pleasantville as having an underlying gnostic theme as well. I never made the connection before because I wasn't familiar with gnosticism when I watched these movies ages ago, but was doing some reading on gnostic cinema after responding to you and saw these mentioned. Thought it was interesting enough to share.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 03-07-2017 at 04:33 PM.
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  44. #44
    oskar's Avatar
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    I just think that comparative literature is for fags. There are like 3 stories in literature, because we're really slow on ideas as a species. There's: man falls in love with woman, woman rejects man, man stalks woman, then they fuck. There's Dracula and then there's:
    god creates man, man resents god, god destroys man and then someone gets fucked. I guess you can point out parallels, but that's about as exciting as finding parallels in a bamboo forest. You're right, but who gives a fuck.
    Last edited by oskar; 03-16-2017 at 03:18 AM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  45. #45
    Which story is Oedipus? Which is Luke Skywalker? Which is Ripley?
  46. #46
    Comparative literature is the study of literature across different cultures.

    Gnosticism is not merely a parallel that's neat to notice, it is the underlying ethos of the show. It's inextricable from any comprehensive analysis of its themes.

    I guess The Matrix is just a love story between two vinyl-clad weirdos with some random adventure story on the side?

    Anyway it's cool if you don't care, I was just contesting the idea that he was "shoehorning" anything.
    Last edited by aubreymcfate; 03-17-2017 at 03:47 PM.
  47. #47
    Less than two weeks til the new season!
  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Which story is Oedipus?
    Dracula
    Which is Luke Skywalker?
    Dracula
    Which is Ripley?
    You guessed it: Dracula.

    Less than two weeks til the new season!
    hype!
    I don't want to make predictions because they're probably already smashed in the trailer, and I'm not going to watch the trailer.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

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