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  1. #1

    Default UK elections thread

    It's election time in the grand old United Kingdom!

    I know there's a few brits on here, and while our elections pale in comparison to the USA's in scale and length they still have a decent effect on our lives.

    Who do you think will win it?

    Why?

    What issues matter to you?

    Will you actually bother voting?

    Poll info.
    http://may2015.com/

    Info on donations.
    http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...y-document.pdf

    Breakdown at end of current parliament.
    http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-a...f-the-parties/
  2. #2
    I doubt I'll vote, which makes me feel guilty given what people have sacrificed in the past to give me that privilege. There just isn't one leader or manifesto that sparks any sort of interest in me, and locally there's almost no point in voting when my constituency is one of the safest Tory seats in the country.

    Pretty sure we'll be back at the polls by the end of the year too. Conservatives will likely win the most seats, but won't be able to find enough coalition partners to give them a majority.
  3. #3
    tory/snp coalition .....scots get another independence vote and a socialist bloc leaves the uk for following elections leaving a more likely tory win later on.

    call me a cynic.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    tory/snp coalition .....scots get another independence vote and a socialist bloc leaves the uk for following elections leaving a more likely tory win later on.

    call me a cynic.
    You a cynic, never.

    I doubt the conservatives and snp could ever really get along. It'll be interesting to see how much of an effect the SNP have on this election.
  5. #5
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    I fucking hate politics. The one-upmanship and point scoring combined with the vote grabbing tactics at odds with what's actually best for the country drive me insane to the point of losing interest.
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  6. #6
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    But I'll probably vote labour because I don't want the Conservative party to win. I'm also in one of the few marginal seats so my vote actually matters to a greater extent that most.

    What I really want is an end to fptp.
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  7. #7
    Yeah, I saw some of my UK friends on Facebook sharing strategic voting sites that let you swap votes between Green and Labour to stop Cons from winning certain seats. I see this as proof of FPTP voting to be broken.
  8. #8
    I'm voting for the first time. I'll probably vote Greens, but my constituency is a Tory / Independant marginal, so I'm thinking of voting for the independant as a fuck you Tories vote.

    Tory/SNP coalition is ludicrous, I can't see how that can work. It'll either be Labour/SNP or Tory/UKIP/LibDems, whichever one can cobble together the biggest coalition.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Didn't we have a referendum about FPTP? Didn't we vote to keep it?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results...ferendum,_2011

    67.9% in favour of keeping the FPTP system.

    Whichever system I prefer is irrelevant. We shouldn't change it without holding another referendum, and for that to happen there needs to be a clear shift in public opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    Tory/SNP coalition is ludicrous, I can't see how that can work. It'll either be Labour/SNP or Tory/UKIP/LibDems, whichever one can cobble together the biggest coalition.
    actually could be made to work really easily , snp get to make the laws for scotland with their own budget etc and tories do the laws for england /wales with each waving through the others policys tied to each country since it wont affect them. Scotland would effectively then become independent within a UK framework and kind of half way step to full independence. then in the last year of the parliament they'd get another independence referendum and might then decide to leave or if the SNP make a complete hash of it stay in the uk.
    .

    it would kinda sidestep the west lothian question and each side can implement their full policy within their own region without having to compromise. Trident could be the only sticking point.
  12. #12
    SNP would be stupid to form a working coalition with the Tories. A huge core of the SNP vote is anti-Tory, and will go back to Labour in droves at the next election if the SNP betray them at this one.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    If Scotland leave the UK, I'll probably move to Scotland. Without the Scottish voters, the Tories will utterly dominate the remainder of the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If Scotland leave the UK, I'll probably move to Scotland. Without the Scottish voters, the Tories will utterly dominate the remainder of the UK.
    lol ....and now you realize whats in it for the tories.
  15. #15
    I'm sure the Tories give a single fuck about me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
    socialists and junkies all bugger off to scotland ....england crime rate drops ....scots crime rate soars etc.... all looks rosy lol
  17. #17
    Do you think that socialism, drug use and crime all go together? Do you read the Daily Mail?

    I'm a socialist stoner. Aside from smoking weed, how many laws do you think I break in an average week?
    Last edited by OngBonga; 04-22-2015 at 04:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  18. #18
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    I think a great improvement to fptp would be to poll everyone a wwwk before the election on who they'd like to vote for, then make each constituencies poll results available to the voters so you could see if your vote made a difference. Then, if say unit is winning with lib dem second, you could realise your labour vote is wasted and instead switch to lib dem to keep ukip out. For example of course.

    But without that info your vote loses lots of value as you don't know how best to use it.
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  19. #19
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    Or maybe allow block voting.
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  20. #20
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    Block voting is s great idea.

    Take the Truro and Falmouth constituency where I live.

    Last year had roughly 20.4k vote for cons, 19.9k vote lib dem, 6k labour, 4k elsewhere.

    So basically 10k people had no effect whatsoever.

    Those 10k, could effectively make a choice of cons or lib dem. They know their own preference can't win but they could chose either cons or lib dem and actually matter.

    People are stupid.
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  21. #21
    Sure, but don't Labour in your example suffer if they get even less of the popular vote in the end? I forget how this works.
  22. #22
    I think the vote swapping idea is that you're merely trading votes with somebody else, so your original vote for the party of your choice will still count, so you can still be principled about the whole thing.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac View Post
    Sure, but don't Labour in your example suffer if they get even less of the popular vote in the end? I forget how this works.
    Yeah they get less votes. It also encourages 'lesser of two evils' thinking imo which isn't good.
  24. #24
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    The amount of votes a party received a cross the country have no baring on who gains control.
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Do you think that socialism, drug use and crime all go together? Do you read the Daily Mail?

    I'm a socialist stoner. Aside from smoking weed, how many laws do you think I break in an average week?
    And here was me thinking you eat smack for breakfast then go out slashing fellow constituency members with a rusty knife.
  26. #26
    Looks like Cameron is trying to appeal to possible UKIP converts by saying English MP's will have some kind of veto over English only issues. Either that or giving 2 fingers to the SNP.
  27. #27
    If you consider a "wasted vote" to be a vote for a loser, or a vote for the winner above the necessary threshold, around 70% of all votes are "wasted" in this context.

    I'm not a huge fan of FPTP, but we decided in a referendum to keep it. There's no discussion on the matter. It's here to stay unless there's another referendum.

    As for tactical voting, well it's an unfortunate aspect of FPTP that in a lot of cases people will basically vote for who they want out, rather than in. I want to vote Greens, but I also want the Tories out and I'm in a Tory-held marginal which could go back to the independant Dr Taylor, so I'm torn between voting with my heart and voting with my head. Greens have no chance of taking this seat, but if they have a good showing, they might fare better next time around. I think I'll still vote Greens because I doubt very much that my one vote will be the difference between Tory or Taylor, and even if it is, I doubt even more that this one seat will be the difference between a Tory and Labour govt.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopy View Post
    Looks like Cameron is trying to appeal to possible UKIP converts by saying English MP's will have some kind of veto over English only issues. Either that or giving 2 fingers to the SNP.
    It's a desperate attempt to win back the UKIP vote, and it will backfire. He's basically saying that he doesn't trust the Scots to make decisions that affect all of Britain. He's insulting the Scottish democratic choice.

    UKIP are a very amusing party, in a sense. They are utterly despised by the left, but many people on the left are failing to realise that thanks to UKIP splitting the right-wing vote in England, the Tories are unable to dominate when they otherwise would be able to. Without Labour's core vote in Scotland, they should be dead and buried, but they're neck and neck with the Tories, thanks to UKIP.

    The left should be happy UKIP exist, because it means it's less likely that the Tories win.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoopy View Post
    Looks like Cameron is trying to appeal to possible UKIP converts by saying English MP's will have some kind of veto over English only issues. Either that or giving 2 fingers to the SNP.
    or getting realistic about a possible snp coalition ....english/welsh/irish MPs on english/welsh/irish matters and support the SNPs plans on scottish matters. keeps the scots voting snp for future elections and gives SNP more powers over scotland and reduces labours numbers of seats and influence in england/wales matters.

    UKIP don't necessarily just take votes off tories either , plenty of labour supporters have switched to UKIP as well.
  30. #30
    UKIP don't necessarily just take votes off tories either , plenty of labour supporters have switched to UKIP as well.
    Of course, but it's very clear that UKIP are taking more Conservative votes than any other party, and the Labour votes they're taking are the soft centrists, rather than the core left wing votes. There's no doubt that UKIP have split the right.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #31
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    There's not a great deal of difference in terms of policy between ukip and conservatives anyway.
    http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
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  32. #32
    soo basically you get to choose between authoritarian right wing or green
  33. #33
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    Pretty much, though lib dem are pretty central.
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  34. #34
    Lib Dem are also a bit bend over and get fucked up the arse by Conservatives.

    Greens are the only true left wing party, and they get around 5% of the vote or something stupid like that. I fucking hate this goddam country. We're going to vote in yet another bunch of cunts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  35. #35
    Yeah the 2015 update on the same site shows a clear shift to the right. "The Lib Dems are now widely — and correctly — viewed as a party of few fixed principles, and their vote this time may haemorrhage more to the Greens than to Labour. "

    I found the shifts in all parties towards the right looking at the 2010 page, at the bottom. Particularly Labour.

  36. #36
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    Given that most parties have no clear plan or principles and instead focus on vote grabbing headlines, it's a sad statement of our publics preferences that a move to the right is the chosen strategy to increase votes.
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  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    Given that most parties have no clear plan or principles and instead focus on vote grabbing headlines, it's a sad statement of our publics preferences that a move to the right is the chosen strategy to increase votes.
    You can blame the media for that. Anything remotely left wing is seized upon as barmy by the right wing press. Take communism for example. Being a communist during the Cold War was as bad as being a terrorist today. We like to think we have free press, but it's an illusion; the people who control the press have a vested interest in keeping our economic system as it is. Therefore, you'll find it very difficult to find a leading main stream newspaper giving the Greens any positive coverage.

    That political compass eugmac posted is interesting... I'd like to know where Labour fit in there today. I feel like they're lurching back to the left under Miliband, though not nearly enough for me to consider voting for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #38
  39. #39
    Yeah that looks about right. Greens in a world of their own in the bottom left.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #40
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    How's this for Labour moving left: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32468997

    Go dam rent control!
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  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    How's this for Labour moving left: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32468997

    Go dam rent control!
    So three year standard contracts for everyone rather than the usual 6 month shorthold tenancy? I guess there will be tennant only break clauses or similar every 6 months.

    Since inflation is so low rents will stay down for a while, not sure if rent control is a good thing overall though.
  42. #42
    CISTA would get my vote
  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    How's this for Labour moving left: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32468997

    Go dam rent control!
    I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I mean in principle, I feel like rent should be capped because accomodation is essential. But then again the market should be free to set the price. If rent is too high, then people will buy instead of rent. Landlords have a vested interest in ensuring rent prices are not too high. The government can keep a cap on rent by controlling interest rates and thus the cost of mortgages, there's no need to lean further on landlords.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  44. #44
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    It's not like there's a monopoly on the supply of housing. Competition ensures rent doesn't get too high. A rented property is an investment to the owner just like any other. If returns get too high, other investors jump in creating more competition and putting downward pressure in rents.

    If anything the long, expensive and complicated process involved in building, buying and selling property has a bigger effect on reducing competition and therefore maintaining artificially high rents.
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  45. #45
    Tories will be the biggest party but Miliband will be PM, that's my prediction.

    It'll be messy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  46. #46
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    Every time miliband opens his mouth and mutters another stupid policy idea I feel like hitting him.
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  47. #47
    Looks like you guys are voting in more liberals and leftists. You're so screwed.
  48. #48
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    The right wing guys are cunts. We're definitely screwed. All any of them do is make silly policies that grab votes via newspapers. And the majority of people lap it up.
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  49. #49
    Still shoulda voted in the cunts this time around, just to tip the power scales more to the center again. The only thing the socialists/leftists/librals or whatever you want to call them will do when criticized for their failures is curb freedom of speech more and manipulate media and acedemia more.

    Voting the nationalists into power is the best thing to happen to Belgium in a long time. It's trading one type of crook for another but the scales are so far to the left already that you need them now to not have your country completely destroyed.
  50. #50
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    I completely disagree with you about that for the UK. No time to explain why as the new a training course but will do later.
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  51. #51
    Now I'm curious
  52. #52
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    Jv, sorry, super busy.

    But this pretty much sums up tory and to a lesser extent labour policy and makes their entire approach seem like a joke.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/...erity-delusion

    And as for ukip, they really do come across as a bunch of racist bigoted idiots. I can't imagine a group I'd less like to be representing me.
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  53. #53
    Has anyone seen the Miliband and Brand interview? I can't decide which one I want to punch the most. Just when I think I've decided on one, the other one talks.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  54. #54
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    And to be clear on my rejection of tory economic policy, it's a ruse to reduce the size of the state. Now I'm OK with that being a goal, although I disagree with aspects of it, but to jeopardise the holy grail of growth for it is fucking retarded.
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  55. #55
    I have to disagree that UKIP is racist. For one, you can compare them to other rightwing parties in europe and UKIP is the mildest among them. But mainly, they're a reactionary party. Mass immigration, the Rotherham scandal and other failures of leftwing ideology are what is shifting europe to the right. This issue is very real, a leaked document from the currently ongoing EU summit shows europe is going to be closing its borders:

    EU summit to offer resettlement to only 5,000 refugees:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...aders-to-agree

    http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/eu-leaders-will-say-we-cannot-take-more-migrants-314027


    The diplomat explained that discouraging migrants is “extremely sensitive” politically, that it is a “a challenge to present it”, and that its substance was that Europe is not ready to receive any more mass influxes of refugees, because then everyone who wants to have a better life will come to Europe. “This would destroy Europe at the end,” he said.
    Last edited by jackvance; 05-02-2015 at 05:35 AM.
  56. #56
    Seriously? The fucking idiots in Brussels are actually starting to realise what happens if you have open door immigration?

    I don't think UKIP are racist. I think they're divisive. They promote an "us vs them" mentality when it comes to culture, which is the polar opposite direction we should be heading in. I've no problem with limiting immigration, we're a small island with twice the population of Canada. But those that are legitimately here should be treated as equals, which means they have an equal right to employment, health, education, welfare etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  57. #57
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    The statement "They are racist" when referring to a political party is an odd one. I mean I'm not sure exactly how you would define it. So let me change that statement. Several of their candidates have demonstrated that they individually are racist. Not just one, but several. Where there's smoke there's certainly a reasonable chance of fire.

    Britain is full of thick people who are very easily led and frequently hold somewhat racist ideas, even if they don't realise it. So if someone legitimises these thoughts, such as a racist party being voted in, I'd hate to think where it might end.
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  58. #58
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-who-said-what

    Nigel Farage said he wouldn't want to live next to a Romanian family. How is that even remotely non-racist?
  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac View Post
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-who-said-what

    Nigel Farage said he wouldn't want to live next to a Romanian family. How is that even remotely non-racist?
    Because he has a German wife duh.

    Farage doesn't truly feel like that. He said it because it appeals to the morons who think Romanians are just here to commit crime. This is my problem with UKIP - they appeal to the morons, and they are so divisive. There's probably some truth in the claim that Romanian immigrants are more likely to be criminals than, say, Chinese or Indian immigrants, and it's not easy pointing that out without sounding racist. Still, Farage's choice of phrase was terrible, because it resonates so closely to the days when people would say the same about black people. He certainly could have made this point without sounding like a racist twat.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  60. #60
    ha at the notion that germans more racist than you lot
  61. #61
    Voting day tomorrow dudes, I might even stay up and watch some of the results (nahhhhh).
  62. #62
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    I really hope the tories don't win. But I have a miserable feeling they just might.
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  63. #63
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    I'm also quite surprised at just how biased the British media is. Especially the BBC.
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  64. #64
    why do you like labour and why do you dislike tory?
  65. #65
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    I'm pretty insulated from U.K. politics but I saw a funny story that the labour candidate is promising to institute a ban of islamophobia. He, of course, didn't define what islamophobia is so it will essentially be a blasphemy law.
  66. #66
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    It's not so much that I like Labour as much as I really dislike the Tories.

    Firstly, and most importantly of all, economic policy and an obsession with austerity, and please read the article by Paul Krugman which I linked above for details on this (or alternatively a much easier and quicker, though less detailed read here: http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2015/0...david-cameron/), but effectively the Tories are using fear as an excuse to fly the austerity flag which enables them to reduce the size of the state. Now I understand that many people like yourself are happy with a goal of reducing the size of the state, but saying that's what you believe in, explaining why and spreading belief in a system is not the same as hiding your true motives. This just makes me trust them less and besides I'm not a fan of reducing the size of the state.

    And on to the specifics of austerity. The NHS is worse than it's been for years with longer waiting times and all sorts of crises of hospital beds and the Tory plan is to gradually privatise more and more of it which I don't agree with. The same can be said for social care in general and my opinion of this comes mainly from people I know who work for the local government in various offices, lots of aspects of what it does was outsources to private companies which has proved disastrous and the cuts are making it pretty much impossible for people to do their jobs and at the end of this griping line of civil servants and social workers are (typically poor) people genuinely suffering. I mean Jesus just look at the amount of people using food banks! And I quite simple blame austerity for this more than anything else as it has cut growth, given tax cuts to the wealthy and reduced benefits to the poor as well as reducing the amount of resources allocated to helping people.

    £12bn will be cut from the benefits system under a Tory government (and let me add at this point that I don't receive any kind of tax credit or benefit) and the prime minister refuses to explain where it will come from. There's already been massive cuts in disability support for example, and that kind of ties in with the state of fear they create where it seems we should somehow blame the most vulnerable in society for everything that went wrong.

    EU referendom - why on earth would we have a referendum on this, leaving the EU is a stupid idea, especially given that the prime minister actually states that he believes we should be in it. Surely if you strongly believe in something like this it should not be something you guarantee a referendum on.

    The constantly blaming Labour for the recession. It was a worldwide recession based on a global financial crisis yet the Tories and their media chums have some how spun it so the majority of people actually think labour were responsible for this. They say also say labour spent too much and almost busted the country, yet their spending as a percentage of gdp was within normal perameters and broadly similar to the tory party in the 90s. They also keep claiming they've saved us from ending up like Greece, which is just a ridiculous concept in itself. And worse still, they've been so good at spreading this message that labour can't even deny it without looking like they are irresponsible and likely to lead the country to ruin again, despite the fact that the main thing that has restricted growth over the last 5 year is tory economic policy, which they never acknowledge, obv.

    I've got bored and tired now so I'm just going to give up. But I'll be voting labour because they are the only other option and a considerably better one.
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  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    I'm pretty insulated from U.K. politics but I saw a funny story that the labour candidate is promising to institute a ban of islamophobia. He, of course, didn't define what islamophobia is so it will essentially be a blasphemy law.
    He did indeed say this. Like I said above, it's more I don't want the other guy.
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  68. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    It's not so much that I like Labour as much as I really dislike the Tories.

    Firstly, and most importantly of all, economic policy and an obsession with austerity, and please read the article by Paul Krugman which I linked above for details on this (or alternatively a much easier and quicker, though less detailed read here: http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2015/0...david-cameron/), but effectively the Tories are using fear as an excuse to fly the austerity flag which enables them to reduce the size of the state. Now I understand that many people like yourself are happy with a goal of reducing the size of the state, but saying that's what you believe in, explaining why and spreading belief in a system is not the same as hiding your true motives. This just makes me trust them less and besides I'm not a fan of reducing the size of the state.

    And on to the specifics of austerity. The NHS is worse than it's been for years with longer waiting times and all sorts of crises of hospital beds and the Tory plan is to gradually privatise more and more of it which I don't agree with. The same can be said for social care in general and my opinion of this comes mainly from people I know who work for the local government in various offices, lots of aspects of what it does was outsources to private companies which has proved disastrous and the cuts are making it pretty much impossible for people to do their jobs and at the end of this griping line of civil servants and social workers are (typically poor) people genuinely suffering. I mean Jesus just look at the amount of people using food banks! And I quite simple blame austerity for this more than anything else as it has cut growth, given tax cuts to the wealthy and reduced benefits to the poor as well as reducing the amount of resources allocated to helping people.

    £12bn will be cut from the benefits system under a Tory government (and let me add at this point that I don't receive any kind of tax credit or benefit) and the prime minister refuses to explain where it will come from. There's already been massive cuts in disability support for example, and that kind of ties in with the state of fear they create where it seems we should somehow blame the most vulnerable in society for everything that went wrong.

    EU referendom - why on earth would we have a referendum on this, leaving the EU is a stupid idea, especially given that the prime minister actually states that he believes we should be in it. Surely if you strongly believe in something like this it should not be something you guarantee a referendum on.

    The constantly blaming Labour for the recession. It was a worldwide recession based on a global financial crisis yet the Tories and their media chums have some how spun it so the majority of people actually think labour were responsible for this. They say also say labour spent too much and almost busted the country, yet their spending as a percentage of gdp was within normal perameters and broadly similar to the tory party in the 90s. They also keep claiming they've saved us from ending up like Greece, which is just a ridiculous concept in itself. And worse still, they've been so good at spreading this message that labour can't even deny it without looking like they are irresponsible and likely to lead the country to ruin again, despite the fact that the main thing that has restricted growth over the last 5 year is tory economic policy, which they never acknowledge, obv.

    I've got bored and tired now so I'm just going to give up. But I'll be voting labour because they are the only other option and a considerably better one.
    Thanks for posting this. I'm more interested in hearing your thoughts than having a debate, so don't worry.

    I think the one truly important thing is to come to positions based on reasoning. Even though I have very strong opinions on economics and social dynamics, I still do not know which realistic policies are better for immigration and foreign engagements.

    FWIW, I think Krugman is a political pundit first, economist second. Most economists claim he is brilliant, but also that since 2007, he has cared more about a political agenda and subsequently diverged from consensus economics.
  69. #69
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    Wuf, read that Krugman article I posted and let me know your thoughts. I'd be interested.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    Jv, sorry, super busy.

    But this pretty much sums up tory and to a lesser extent labour policy and makes their entire approach seem like a joke.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/...erity-delusion

    And as for ukip, they really do come across as a bunch of racist bigoted idiots. I can't imagine a group I'd less like to be representing me.
    That's this link btw wuf.
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  71. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    Wuf, read that Krugman article I posted and let me know your thoughts. I'd be interested.
    It's a long one, but I read it.

    Krugman has diagnosed the main problem with Europe being its monetary policy, and counters Europe's policies by pushing fiscal matters. Wait. What? Indeed Krugman has correctly identified the ECB's shit ass monetary policies, but prescribing fiscal solutions is, um, like drinking water by taking a nap. It's apples and oranges. It's like treating cancer with AIDS medication. It's like Britain counter-attacking Germany in WW2 by invading a shoal of fish in the middle of the North Sea.

    If it was that simple, you'd think Krugman would see his mistake, and you'd probably be right. But his real mistake is a little deeper. It's his focus on the zero bound. Through his unwavering position on monetary policy being ineffective at the zero bound, he has provided himself the legroom to salve the Euro monetary problems with fiscal policy. His zero bound stance has some backing, but among the many reasons it is untenable, there are two I know best:

    1) His own words. He supports central banking monetary policy so aggressive that it amounts to 4-5% inflation. This is absolutely contradictory to his stance that monetary policy has failed. It really just blows my mind that he has held this contradictory stance for a good five years now. My only explanation for why he can do it is that he rarely discusses inflation, so his inflation suggestions are just meager side notes in his mind. But I really don't know. The economists I currently read think it's because he has endorsed a political stance over his previous economic stance.

    2) The monetary offset. What makes central banks central banks is that they hold autonomy over the currency and thus the nominal economy since, numerically, the economy is expressed in terms of that currency. Central banks across the globe have long understood that if they so desire to put the nominal economy at a certain number, they can do so with known policy tools. This means, and has been used numerous times, as an offset to fiscal policy. For example, when a parliament or congress passes a $1T stimulus, it only stimulates as much as the currency controller determines. Fiscal policy is powerless to alter the nominal economy. Historical examples of fiscal policy affecting the nominal economy have only come when the currency controller does not manage expectation with monetary policy.

    A recent example of the monetary offset in action can be found in 2013. Krugman was adamant in claiming the across-the-board cuts enacted by the US government would create another recession and about 600k jobs lost. He even went so far as to say it was a test of the power of monetary policy. Well, he lost that test when there was no evidence of his projected job losses and the economy actually improved upon the previous several years, and the only other reasonable correlation was that the Federal Reserve had boosted its monetary stimulus to enough of a point that the fiscal austerity would be more than accounted for. Krugman has since backed away and imagined he never said this was a test.

    An even deeper analysis of the fiscal policy position has us scratching our heads, since there is nothing in economics that claims spending increases prosperity. Prosperity is a product of resources moving from or transforming a lower value utility to a higher value utility. Spending doesn't do this and economic metrics even treat savings as the same thing as future spending, so if spending did it, not spending also would.

    All in all, Krugman is right in his initial diagnosis of the Europe problem of refractory currency practices. But for some reason his prescriptions are non-sequitur.


    It's hard to say much more, because I think the monetary policy of Europe vastly overshadows any fiscal policies. Krugman claims that Europe's monetary policy is in the dumps, but then focuses his energy on a narrative of the real culprit being fiscal policy. I just don't get it.

    I think maybe the takeaway is that the theory that fiscal stimulus enhances prosperity is unsound. Most economists are pretty firm on this, but they're losing the battle against populist sentiments and the handful of avowed pundits like Krugman (The Conscience of a Liberal, what a way to stay academically neutral :rollseyes).

    FWIW, it does not help us that central banks do not want to boast their role. The Fed, for example, talks out of both sides of its mouth, saying it has lots of policy tools in one breath then saying in the next breath that it would prefer Congress to enact fiscal stimulus. The word is that the Fed doesn't want to own the economy. The populace does not think it owns the economy, so it can get away with putting the responsibility on legislators in order to keep itself in the shadows and off the hook for any problems. Pretty standard boardroom policy IMO.

    I'll stop now since this is already too long.
  72. #72
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    How can stimulus, let's say government spending in the form of direct investment in say house building, not enhance prosperity? It creates jobs all along the supply chain from mining to brick laying. So it not only creates value in terms of production, but also in terms of the velocity of money and taxation.

    I narrowed down the main point of the argument put forward to be that monetary policy is always the go to element when facing a downturn, ie lower interest rate and increase money supply which broadly everyone agrees with. However should that prove ineffective, or perhaps insufficient, that fiscal policy should be used as a secondary tool, mainly an increase in government spending, to further stimulate the economy with am overall effect of an increase in growth and am increase in inflation which has the secondary value of reducing debt.

    Effectively saying the bit that the government is responsible for has been fucked up by focusing on austerity instead.
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  73. #73
    i didn't know you could bet on election outcomes. if you bet on a party, then vote for them, isn't that fraud? worse still, can't a bookmaker encourage people to vote one way or another by offering great odds for a certain outcome?
  74. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    How can stimulus, let's say government spending in the form of direct investment in say house building, not enhance prosperity? It creates jobs all along the supply chain from mining to brick laying. So it not only creates value in terms of production, but also in terms of the velocity of money and taxation.
    If it did indeed increase production and productivity, then it would enhance prosperity. But the reason it doesn't is because the funds used to do so are subtracted from other sectors of the economy. If government was more efficient at allocating resources than private markets, then this would be wonderful and we should probably be taxed at 100%, but because government isn't as efficient as the market, it extracting money from the market to reinvest just creates lower ROI at best.

    There's a lot more to go into here, but we can leave it at that.

    I narrowed down the main point of the argument put forward to be that monetary policy is always the go to element when facing a downturn, ie lower interest rate and increase money supply which broadly everyone agrees with. However should that prove ineffective, or perhaps insufficient, that fiscal policy should be used as a secondary tool, mainly an increase in government spending, to further stimulate the economy with am overall effect of an increase in growth and am increase in inflation which has the secondary value of reducing debt.
    It's a little tough to narrow it down since there is a little schizophrenia going on. I'll say that the theory is that monetary policy is highly effective and the data demonstrates this. The one weird thing that happened is Krugman and a couple people changed their tune in 2007 and started saying the zero bound changes things. The irony is that the zero bound is a product of ineffective monetary policy. The schizophrenia is in that pretty much all economists agree with the power of monetary policy but several don't really want to admit it anymore. It's quite strange to me.

    Effectively saying the bit that the government is responsible for has been fucked up by focusing on austerity instead.
    I couldn't find it again because I don't log data, but I've seen several economists post convincing data showing that the last 8 years has shown no correlation whatsoever with austerity and economic slowdown. On the contrary, the slowdown has mostly occurred in regions with the most deficit expansion and lowest monetary stimulus.

    The bottom line to all this, the most important factor IMO, is that the monetary offset is real. Central banks have absolute control over their nominal economies. Governments could pass $20T stimulus packages and they would do absolutely nothing if the central banks offset them with standard policy tools. Which is what happens all the time. The most recent big offset in the US came during the massive decline in gas prices for US consumers. Fiscally, this was a huge tax cut to consumers, but it effected into nothing of the sort because the Fed offset it by engaging extra contraction. Pundits who don't understand money were saying that the price drop would help the US economy, but those who were watching the Fed said the offset was in the works and there would be no boost to the economy.
  75. #75
    Well, for a nation that is supposedly leading the world when it comes to free elections, I just made my vote by placing a cross in a box using a pencil.

    A fucking pencil.
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    ongies gonna ong

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