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Theist or Atheist?

View Poll Results: Do you believe in god, or any other kind of spiritual being?

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  • Yes

    38 38.38%
  • No

    42 42.42%
  • I don't have strong beliefs either way.

    19 19.19%
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  1. #1
    Lukie's Avatar
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    Default Theist or Atheist?

    Very simple, y/n/idk.
  2. #2
    not sure anymore, ive become a lot less atheist in the past few years. i dont really follow any set religion, but i think ill find a religion that appeals to me sooner or later.
  3. #3
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    Absolute atheist.
  4. #4
    Renton's Avatar
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    Absolute agnostic.

    Grew up in a Southern American Christian society, so I have unfortunately developed a sub-concious hatred of Christians.

    Not anything against any of our posters who are Christian, its just when during your upbringing every Christian you know is a racist/sexist/homophobic hypocrite, it puts an irreparable dent in your psyche. I do have lotsa Christian friends and we have wonderful political/religious debates regularly.
  5. #5
    koolmoe's Avatar
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    I have throughout my life gone through some severe spiritual swings, but I cannot help but believe in a supernatural or spiritual world, and I prefer to encapsulate my lack of understanding of those supernatural things in the guise of a creator.

    I used to go to church religiously (haha), and at one point in my life I could quote chapter and verse on many subjects. After seeing such things used for more harm than good and more separation than unity, I disavowed much of that. What's funny about that situation is the way people treat you once you are out of the fold.

    At any rate, my 34 years have taught me that I know very little about very little. As a result, I have very little respect for anyone who is not willing to consider all available information on either side of this particular coin.
    Poker is freedom
  6. #6
    Renton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfman
    Absolute atheist.
    Hey DMan are you a fan of Bill Hicks? Most Atheists/Agnostics (and particularly the English) are.

    Just curious.
  7. #7
    bigred's Avatar
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    Athiest. Laws of nature are the only ones that apply.
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  8. #8
    I believe in God.
    The artist formerly known as Knish
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  9. #9
    AHiltz's Avatar
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    I cannot stand organized religion. More wars have been started over who's god has a bigger dick than a person can count.

    I do not believe in any gods, but I do not rule out the possibility that they could exist.
  10. #10
    bigred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AHiltz
    I cannot stand organized religion. More wars have been started over who's god has a bigger dick than a person can count.

    I do not believe in any gods, but I do not rule out the possibility that they could exist.
    My lack of gods can beat up your lack of gods.
    LOL OPERATIONS
  11. #11
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    I believe in Shania.
  12. #12
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    himself fucker.
    I bow to no all powerful entity.
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  13. #13
    euphoricism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    I believe in Shania.
    There's like four of us that get that. I feel privledged.
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  14. #14
    Five
  15. #15
    ake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by journey075
    not sure anymore, ive become a lot less atheist in the past few years. i dont really follow any set religion, but i think ill find a religion that appeals to me sooner or later.
    You better stick to atheism if you ever want to marry me, thats for damn sure
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by AHiltz
    I cannot stand organized religion. More wars have been started over who's god has a bigger dick than a person can count.
    I hear this frequently. It is true.
    But I just have to point out the mega-millions killed by non-believers over the last 100 years -- Stalin, Hitler, PolPot. I think I'd prefer a cranky Imam to any of those three.
    But that's beside the point. What the said believers do can't influence the existance of Diety. No more than the history of Stalin can influence the validity of athieism.
    I'm a know-it-all.




    No, really.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by euphoricism
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    I believe in Shania.
    There's like four of us that get that. I feel privledged.
    You're not as special as you think.
    TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
  18. #18
    I think the radicals give other religous types bad images. I believe in God, I attend Church, I pray. To me, being religous isn't about rules and regulations of what you can and can't do, its more about the belief (and relationship) with God.

    I would never force religion down the throats of anyone. If you don't go to church, fine you are no better or worse than anyone that does. I personally believe in a Creator because I can't believe that this entire world and the people on it, with all their intricate details were created by anything else.

    I feel everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe but no one should look at anyone else as better or worse because they believe (or don't believe) in a certain something.
    The artist formerly known as Knish
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  19. #19
    Lukie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Five
    Six

    I've thought about making a new sn on various poker sites with shania, or some other meta-game reference worked into it. Thoughts? Horrible idea Lukie?
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukie
    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Five
    Six
    Seven



    I dont believe in God. Im a scientist so I need something that at least resembles evidence before I can start to believe in something.... Maybe one day ill have a vision or something but until then....
    gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

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  21. #21
    Atheist, God and I never really connected. I don't really spend a whole lot of time dwelling on the subject, however, I just try to live my life as well as I can.
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord
    I believe in Shania.
    Twain?
  23. #23
    Greedo017's Avatar
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    "I personally believe in a Creator because I can't believe that this entire world and the people on it, with all their intricate details were created by anything else."

    the problem that I have with this is to believe it you must deny evolution, and if you deny evolution you probably just haven't learned enough about it
    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  24. #24
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    The creator could have created evolution?
  25. #25
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    Wait...I'm God.
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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukie
    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Five
    Six

    I've thought about making a new sn on various poker sites with shania, or some other meta-game reference worked into it. Thoughts? Horrible idea Lukie?

    Problem is if someone knows what Shania or metagame is, then they automatically have a step on you, if they know that all you're doing is for metagame.
  27. #27
    Lukie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukie
    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Five
    Six

    I've thought about making a new sn on various poker sites with shania, or some other meta-game reference worked into it. Thoughts? Horrible idea Lukie?

    Problem is if someone knows what Shania or metagame is, then they automatically have a step on you, if they know that all you're doing is for metagame.
    good point
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Les_Worm
    I think the radicals give other religous types bad images. I believe in God, I attend Church, I pray. To me, being religous isn't about rules and regulations of what you can and can't do, its more about the belief (and relationship) with God.

    I would never force religion down the throats of anyone. If you don't go to church, fine you are no better or worse than anyone that does. I personally believe in a Creator because I can't believe that this entire world and the people on it, with all their intricate details were created by anything else.

    I feel everyone has the right to believe whatever they want to believe but no one should look at anyone else as better or worse because they believe (or don't believe) in a certain something.
    Im in no way trying to change your mind, but you should read up on the string theory, and all that stuff involving 11 dimensions. Part of it explains how (I could be wrong, this is just waht I remember) the big bang came to happen. And if this is true, big bangs are happening all the time and infinite big bangs have happened, each one spawning a universe. So therefore there are infinite universes, each one being different (since there are infinite ones, possibly there would be repeats?). So a fraction of these universes would have life (as we know it), because instead of remaining as dust clouds, they formed stars, then planets, some of which could harbor life. The thing is, a fraction of infinity, is in fact an infinite amount. So as you can see there would be infinite universes that bear(sp?) life. So as you can see, life is not such a unique thing. We could also go into the fact that the scientific community agrees that mathematically its not only possible but very highly probable that other intelligent life exists within our own universe.

    Getting back to the 11 dimensions, we as humans only perceive 3 of those 11. So seeing as we obviously dont not percieve our world in its entirety, we might be lacking in other ways too. For example time, we percieve it as something linear, something that is ordered, something that follows rules. However there is no proof of this, this could quite possibly be only a false perception of ours. The idea that soemthing or someone had to start this all, and give a guiding hand through it all, is just a fabrication of our minds. When the idea was originally concieved, we did not have the capacity to conceptualize the truth. I am not looking to offend anyone, and there is nothing wrong in believe what you believe. However people almost exclusively turn to religion in times of weakness. They use it as a crutch. They use it to explain things that they are not capable of figuring out themselves, or things they are afraid to admit are true.

    Ontop of me believing in science and logic, rather then (what seem to be) fantastical explainations (to me), theres the corruption. The holy books of organized religions are so packed with political agendas. For example, most westerners view Islam as a violent relgion. The truth is far from this belief though, it is infact a peaceful religion, but in some cases it has been twisted into something else. This is an example, but is not exclusive to Islam, every religion has been altered and skewed. Certain points being over exagerated, or just straight up added.

    All that being said, I respect everyones beliefs. If you need to or want to believe in something and it helps you, more power to yah. I am only explaining my point of view, and why I have that point of view. Even though I chose not to follow any religion, and do not beleive in supernatural things (yes, by all standards god, or gods, are supernatural things), I do recognize the redeeming qualities of religion. At most of thier roots, they are just teaching good moral lessons, and all.

    *Yes, I have denoucned your gods, but do not be hypocrites and take offense. By following any religion, you yourself are saying that your god is the right one and everyone else is wrong (your god, or lack of gods or whatever.)

    **I believe in science. I beleive there is an explanation for everything. One which comes from science. However I am not saying its not possible for a god or gods to exist. It is almost impossible in most cases to prove a negative. So it is definately possible for there to be a god or whatever it is you believe in. I dont believe in ghosts, but what proof do I have that they dont exist? Nahwahimean?
  29. #29
    btw, I was just thinking about it, and just as time is something that we could possibly only perceieve to be the way it is, however it could be something totally abstarct... I was just thinking about how logic could be the same. Maybe logic is my crutch? Its my religion, when I am feeling down or am having a hard time, I fall back on logic. While you pray for strength or what-have-you, I try to think things through, in a logical manner.

    So dont take what I say wrong... I dont think Im better then religious people.
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  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Greedo017
    "I personally believe in a Creator because I can't believe that this entire world and the people on it, with all their intricate details were created by anything else."

    the problem that I have with this is to believe it you must deny evolution, and if you deny evolution you probably just haven't learned enough about it
    I don't believe in evolution in the broad sense of the word. I mean I believe that we as people are adapting and changing but I in no way believe that we started as some microorganism and kept changing into other species until we finally reached human status.

    I also believe that this entire world is less than 20,000 years old. I know most of you will take that as a ridiculous statement but I'm not really here to argue that because really whats the point?
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  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Les_Worm
    Quote Originally Posted by Greedo017
    "I personally believe in a Creator because I can't believe that this entire world and the people on it, with all their intricate details were created by anything else."

    the problem that I have with this is to believe it you must deny evolution, and if you deny evolution you probably just haven't learned enough about it
    I don't believe in evolution in the broad sense of the word. I mean I believe that we as people are adapting and changing but I in no way believe that we started as some microorganism and kept changing into other species until we finally reached human status.

    I also believe that this entire world is less than 20,000 years old. I know most of you will take that as a ridiculous statement but I'm not really here to argue that because really whats the point?
    BWAHAHHAHAH!... ok sorry.. I found it funny, so sue me..

    And the thing about us finally becoming humans... who said anything about that? You seem to be under the impression that the theory of evolution is saying that we have arrived at something. We are not done evolving in any sense. Hell, we think of napolean as a short lil french guy. In his day he was of average european height. So even in that short of a time things have changed considerably. However to see huge changes you would have to go to prehistorical times. And since our history feels like it goes back a long time, it seems like we dont change anymore. However in the grand scheme of things our history covers so very very very little. It is possible that we as a species will evolve less and less the more we rely on technology, because we adapt without biological evolution. But we have definately not finished evolving.

    Anyways, I apologize for being an ass, but I truly found that funny, I laughed at one of my freinds when he tried to explain to me that dinasour bones where planted here by god to test our fate. I dont mean to be an ass.. in all honesty, I just find it funny. You have every right to your beliefs though, but you have to understand that with such 'radical' beliefs people are going to find it humorous.
  32. #32
    Les_Worm - you don't believe in carbon dating? The half-life of carbon-14 is about 5730 years, thats a verifiable fact. Granted the range of carbon dating is maybe 50,000 years or so max before the accuracy starts to break down, but that's still pretty compelling...

    Unless of course God spends his time planting excess carbon-14 everywhere just to test our faith.
    AWOL.
  33. #33
    I appreciate everyones points of views and beliefs but like I said I am not here to debate anything because rarely are minds changed on subjects like this when most people are so stubborn (myself included). I probably have some stuff that would really make some of you think and if you wanna chat about it sometime hit me up on IM and if I'm not busy we could bounce questions (that neither of us really have the answers to) at each other.
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  34. #34
    euphoricism's Avatar
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    So my guess of four was off, it was actually seven.

    I am just as special as I think. My mommy said so.
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  35. #35
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    i'm a biology major and know enough about evolution and creationism to destroy most creationist arguments. the way i see things is the best way to approach the world is to believe what i understand. Sure, its pretty hard to argue against a lot of things, I could say everything was created just 1 second ago and god made you with your memories, and you can never prove me wrong, but rather than insist something is true because it can't be proven right or wrong in any way, why not go with what I know to be true and work my way from there?

    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  36. #36
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    "The idea that soemthing or someone had to start this all, and give a guiding hand through it all, is just a fabrication of our minds."

    I was raised catholic, dropped it a while ago though. i always teetered between theist and atheist. maybe 2 years ago i was talking with a friend, and the only real reason i was still theist was because I wondered, how did everything start? had to come from somewhere, god right? big bang seemed pretty retarded. But then he mentioned, why is it more rational to believe a god created everything, than to believe it either always existed, or the big bang or whatever.

    I kinda got to thinking about it: the people that mock me for believing in the big bang, and then that we all formed through evolution, mock me from the platform that a big mystery man in the sky that we can't see hear or interact with in any way poofed everything into existance right as rain? this is obvious compared to the big bang? huh?
    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Greedo017
    i'm a biology major and know enough about evolution and creationism to destroy most creationist arguments. the way i see things is the best way to approach the world is to believe what i understand. Sure, its pretty hard to argue against a lot of things, I could say everything was created just 1 second ago and god made you with your memories, and you can never prove me wrong, but rather than insist something is true because it can't be proven right or wrong in any way, why not go with what I know to be true and work my way from there?

    very well put sir, well worth a quote.

    btw, les, how do you feel about me seeing humor in your beliefs? I know it sounds so mean and stuff, but do you see how someone who tries to break things down in logical scientific ways as much as possible would find your views funny? I know I sound like an ass, but I cant help finding something funny, and Im just curious if you can see where Im coming from. (if you feel like Im being an ass, just sya "shut up boost" and Ill shut up)
  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Greedo017
    I kinda got to thinking about it: the people that mock me for believing in the big bang, and then that we all formed through evolution, mock me from the platform that a big mystery man in the sky that we can't see hear or interact with in any way poofed everything into existance right as rain? this is obvious compared to the big bang? huh?
    again, very well put. you should read about string theory, ask vqc he can give you some stuff to read, and heres a link to a miniseries that came on tv a while back, you can download it in full for free.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html
    I am curious though why you do/did find it so hard to believe the big bang. What is so fantastical about it? When a star dies, in some cases, it will super compact, then explode, making a nebula. From this nebula a new star will be born, 1 particle atracts another iwth gravity then the gravity of the 2 particles has more gravitational pull, and so on and so forth. Eventually the pressure of the gravity creates enough friction to ignite the star. Sometimes enough matter is left around the star to form planets that form in the same way as the star. We know this happens, this isnt far different from the idea of the big bang. Lots and lots and lots of really compact matter, then boom. If you want to understand what makes it go boom, check out the link about the string theory.
  39. #39
    Agnostic, and lean towards the atheist side, but one can't really know.
  40. #40
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  41. #41
    I prefer science because it constantly questions itself and constantly changes as we uncover new information. No scientist has ever said that what we believe now is 100% how things work and now we understand it all but we have got closer and closer to understanding all the time.

    Religion always resists these changes. They write a book that says this is 100% definately how everything happened, and then as society evolves they begin to take things slightly less literally so that it still fits in with science. Religion claims that it knows 100% how everything happened and how everything worked but if that is the case, why are there so many different (and huge) religions.
    Compare islam and christianity. If they cant even agree on whether Jesus was the son of God (a pretty important part of the story IMO) then why should I believe either. One has to be wrong, and if one of them is wrong then there is no reason why they cant all be wrong.

    I also find the idea that the Earth is only 6000 or 10000 years old laughable. If you want to believe that God put fossils on the Earth just to give palaeontologists something to do then thats ok with me but I really cant take it seriously.

    It would be like if someone dug up the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe in a few thousand years time and decided Aslan created the world in 15 minutes, and in the beggining there were talking animals until Humans wiped them out.

    I need evidence to believe in something. Religion relies on faith instead of evidence. As a question to our churchgoers here i ask "how strongly did you belive in Santa Claus as a kid, and do you still belive in him now?"
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  42. #42
    I said Atheist, but I suppose I'm really an agnostic that is fed up with religion and therefore identify with Atheists more.

    The thing that pushes me towards Atheism is a combination of the stupid things religious people do in the name of their religion (and even other religions in the case of American Zionism) and the stupid things people say in the name of their religion.

    Easy example that I always use:

    When I was 13 or so I was in Sunday School, and I consider this the day I stopped believing, the "teacher" was talking about Noah's Ark. I piped up at some point saying "Do you believe this actually happened as written?"

    The teacher said "Of course, all of the things in the Bible happened"

    I kind of sat back, incredulous, and let her keep talking about how he gathered EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL on Earth (and presumably food for every animal) and put them on a boat, etc. etc.

    I started laughing, almost hysterically, and everyone was looking at me like I was crazy. I was made to leave the room, which I did without a fight. My grandmother asked me what was going on and I told her what had happened and (this causes a rift between us even now) added "I just can't take seriously anyone that thinks that actually happened" and went and sat in the car for an hour and a half waiting for them to get out. I never went back.

    Since then I've read up on all sorts of religions and beliefs as well as writings and musings by Atheists, and I've found only that my intentional hunch was correct.

    Modern Christianity is a form of brainwashing and is basically a socially accepted cult.
    You should never wave at people you don't know, cause what if they don't have a hand. They'll think you're cocky. "Look what I got motherfucker, this thing is useful, I'ma go pick somethin up."
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  43. #43
    Here's a podcast some of you atheists might like:


    http://www.davehitt.com/podcasts/QH_Oh_God.mp3
    You should never wave at people you don't know, cause what if they don't have a hand. They'll think you're cocky. "Look what I got motherfucker, this thing is useful, I'ma go pick somethin up."
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  44. #44
    Renton's Avatar
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    To all of my fellow agnostics and atheists posting here:

    Stop trying to ridicule what Christians believe. You are being exactly what you tried to break away from. I know I stopped being a Christian because I hated how most Christians were always ramming Christianity down everyones throats. And you guys are trying to ram Athiesm down Les_Worm's throat.
  45. #45
    You agnositcs and atheists should check out this book.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156...lance&n=283155
    You might find it interesting.
  46. #46
    I imagine the main thing keeping athiests from critically considering the Creator behind strings, life, evolution, carbon14, and man, is that if there is one great being behind it all, critics might have to change their lives. It's much easier to pretend someone else's viewpoint is laughable; God makes them uncomfortable.
    I'm a know-it-all.




    No, really.
  47. #47
    "God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e., everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time." ~Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, Good Omens, 1991
  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by eeeee
    I imagine the main thing keeping athiests from critically considering the Creator behind strings, life, evolution, carbon14, and man, is that if there is one great being behind it all, critics might have to change their lives. It's much easier to pretend someone else's viewpoint is laughable; God makes them uncomfortable.
    This may apply to some, but is far from the truth for me. Im a good person, I feel I live a good life. I am not evil, I try and do good things and help people out. If there is a god, and he(Im using he.. if you dont like it fuck off) doesnt let me in heaven(assuming if theres a god theres a heaven..) because I did not follow his specific religion, then fuck him. Seriously if Im going to hell because Im a good person that tries to live a moral life, but dont believe in some silly hypocritical corrupted book, then so be it. Ill have fun being as good of a person as I can be on this earth. If there is a god, Im confident we would get along, and he would understand why I believe what I believe. If he didnt, then what kind of god is he?

    Also I never tried to shove anything down anyones throat(ok.. I lied .. but I havent in this context atleast..) I explained the way I see things, and why. I never said that I think anyone else has to see it that way. At times it can be very hard for me to understand how a rational individual can believe in adam and eve, and noahs arch and so on, but if they do, thats cool.
  49. #49
    hahaha @ the world is 20k years old.

    i know passive christians dont deserve much of the heat they bring on themselves, but with statements like this how can they avoid it?
  50. #50
    oh, I would like to say that I do believe in karma. Maybe its just a very simple form of what most religions originally are / should be. It keeps people in check... it keeps them from being selfish greedy assholes. And then theres the fact that karma sounds almost like carmel, and carmel is really tasty...
    You-- yes, you-- you're a cunt.
  51. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by eeeee
    I imagine the main thing keeping athiests from critically considering the Creator behind strings, life, evolution, carbon14, and man, is that if there is one great being behind it all, critics might have to change their lives. It's much easier to pretend someone else's viewpoint is laughable; God makes them uncomfortable.
    This may apply to some, but is far from the truth for me. Im a good person, I feel I live a good life. I am not evil, I try and do good things and help people out. If there is a god, and he(Im using he.. if you dont like it fuck off) doesnt let me in heaven(assuming if theres a god theres a heaven..) because I did not follow his specific religion, then fuck him. Seriously if Im going to hell because Im a good person that tries to live a moral life, but dont believe in some silly hypocritical corrupted book, then so be it. Ill have fun being as good of a person as I can be on this earth. If there is a god, Im confident we would get along, and he would understand why I believe what I believe. If he didnt, then what kind of god is he?

    Also I never tried to shove anything down anyones throat(ok.. I lied .. but I havent in this context atleast..) I explained the way I see things, and why. I never said that I think anyone else has to see it that way. At times it can be very hard for me to understand how a rational individual can believe in adam and eve, and noahs arch and so on, but if they do, thats cool.
    Agreed one hundred percent.

    The fact is I am certainly not trying to change any christians mind. It has been tried before and has been proved to be futile because whatever you can prove about the Earth can always be followed up with "ahhah but thats where faith comes in....you see.... God could have made it that way".

    The fact is they are absolutely right.... He could have made it that way and we wouldnt be able to tell the difference. This is where it crosses from science to conjecture. The point is that everybody is entitled to their own point of view in a democracy... but everyone is also entitled to make fun of those points of view which seem slightly ridiculous.
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  52. #52
    organized religion is more of a good thing than a bad thing.

    if u would look past the crazy fundamentalists, like boost has pointed out and look at the moderates which make up the majority of religion, and look at those who use it as a guide to living a good life, organized religions are very good. Sure we might disagree with how long the earth has been around, but seriously, who cares? Living a good (yes broad, yes whose definition of good blah blah blah) life is largely more important than the merits of religion.

    Religions are based on faith, therefore you cant disprove them. Its that simple. Becuase of this you will never be able to prove to boost that u are correct and God exists, and Boost, it will always be impossible for u to prove with science or logic that God doesnt exist. People who believe in God have something that transcends logic, faith. Regardless of how many times u are swallowed by a whale, if you believe that God is good, you believe. Maybe people folllow it blindly, but thats wat faith is.

    I find it funny how u believe in string theory boost.
    I mean comeon its ridiculous to believe in 11 dimentions. how can u really believe in it if its not even scientifically possible to prove that strings exist. So far strings are just a creation of a few physicists that are attempting to combine gravity and quantum physics. As far as I undersatnd it (very little mind u) string theories are about as concrete as God. =). They have yet to be proven, no one has seen strings (we might never see them), and they are just an attempt to give an explanation as to how the world works. Funny, sounds like religion.
  53. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    and Boost, it will always be impossible for u to prove with science or logic that God doesnt exist.
    this is not completely true. One can theorize that it could be possible to prove the lack of a higher beings existence. Im not saying it will ever happen, and definatley not in our life times, but it is theorectically possible. Proving a negative is VERY hard, not impossible.
  54. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    organized religion is more of a good thing than a bad thing.
    it has its good sides yes, but Im not so sure that they out weigh the bad sides. Politics are constantly slowed down by religion. And this isnt just about fanatics. People often chose who they vote for based on religious reasons. Hell.. look at education in america. There are battles being fought back and forth about whether evolution will be taught in schools or not. This is a huge example of religion doing very negative things. Next thing you know the KKK will get schools to stop teaching about the holocaust, because they dont believe it exists. I mean come the fuck on... Then theres the instances where people blindly side with one group just because they share the same religious orientation. For example jews in america, Im not saying all jews, but from what Ive seen a large amount of them support isreal. And they do so blindly. Both sides are fucked up in that situation, yet instead of trying to help support peace efforts, and being proactive, they send money to support israel over palestine.

    Then there are the countless times that religion has been twisted on a MASS scale to appease the ambitions of a less then moral character...

    I want to make clear that Im not saying for a fact that religion as a whole is a negative thing, maybe it is more positive then negative, but figuring that out would take a panel of judges of some sort. And it would take years comparing positive thigns to negative things, and als oremember that the negative things are often shrouded in mystery, like the nights templar... we dont really know to what extent they where good or bad. So it is possible that overall its more good then bad, but theres really no way of saying either way without a doubt.
  55. #55
    Fleece Guest
    god doesnt create man. man creates god

    Marxism is the only answer people. Throw away your religous beliefs, they are tools of the capitalists to exploit you. Religon is the opium of the poeple.

    WORKERS OF ALL COUNTRIES UNITE!
  56. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    and Boost, it will always be impossible for u to prove with science or logic that God doesnt exist.
    this is not completely true. One can theorize that it could be possible to prove the lack of a higher beings existence. Im not saying it will ever happen, and definatley not in our life times, but it is theorectically possible. Proving a negative is VERY hard, not impossible.
    The point of calling something faith based is that its not something that is based on something that u can see or prove. People who believe in God can't physically prove that God exists. They cant prove by any method that God exists. They can give reasons as to theoretically why God exists. The barrier of death that sepereates people from God is wat also prevents you from proving that God doesnt exist. Thats why its called FAITH based. You cant say it doesnt exist, becuase in order to prove it with any validity you have to do something that is impossible.

    Now maybe you can say that well its theoretically possible for someone to die, go into watever afterlife there is (if it does exist) and not see a supreme being, come back to life and then tell everyone that they didnt see God. But even then, did you die? It really does become a paradox when ur trying to "prove" something like this. For now I dont really know how to verbalize wat im trying to say about something liek Faith, other than the fact that its not something to be proven or disproven.
  57. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    organized religion is more of a good thing than a bad thing.
    Politics are constantly slowed down by religion. And this isnt just about fanatics. People often chose who they vote for based on religious reasons. Hell.. look at education in america. There are battles being fought back and forth about whether evolution will be taught in schools or not. This is a huge example of religion doing very negative things. Next thing you know the KKK will get schools to stop teaching about the holocaust, because they dont believe it exists. I mean come the fuck on... Then theres the instances where people blindly side with one group just because they share the same religious orientation. For example jews in america, Im not saying all jews, but from what Ive seen a large amount of them support isreal. And they do so blindly. Both sides are fucked up in that situation, yet instead of trying to help support peace efforts, and being proactive, they send money to support israel over palestine.

    Then there are the countless times that religion has been twisted on a MASS scale to appease the ambitions of a less then moral character...
    read about what Rawls has to say about censorship and maybe u might agree with me about how taking an enternity to argue about these things might not be a bad thing.
  58. #58
    Fleece Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    and Boost, it will always be impossible for u to prove with science or logic that God doesnt exist.
    this is not completely true. One can theorize that it could be possible to prove the lack of a higher beings existence. Im not saying it will ever happen, and definatley not in our life times, but it is theorectically possible. Proving a negative is VERY hard, not impossible.
    The point of calling something faith based is that its not something that is based on something that u can see or prove. People who believe in God can't physically prove that God exists. They cant prove by any method that God exists. They can give reasons as to theoretically why God exists. The barrier of death that sepereates people from God is wat also prevents you from proving that God doesnt exist. Thats why its called FAITH based. You cant say it doesnt exist, becuase in order to prove it with any validity you have to do something that is impossible.

    Now maybe you can say that well its theoretically possible for someone to die, go into watever afterlife there is (if it does exist) and not see a supreme being, come back to life and then tell everyone that they didnt see God. But even then, did you die? It really does become a paradox when ur trying to "prove" something like this. For now I dont really know how to verbalize wat im trying to say about something liek Faith, other than the fact that its not something to be proven or disproven.
    faith is believing in what isnt there. Its like somone looks at a rock and belives its a cat and when u tell them its a rock they say "how do u KNOW its not a cat?" "Because its a rock." "but how do u REALLY KNOW its a rock??" Basically its all bullshit. the question isnt "does god exist?" its "why are we asking if god exists?"

    read DIRK GENTLYS HOLISTIC DETECTIVE AGENCY and read the bit about the electric monk and its faith.
  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    and Boost, it will always be impossible for u to prove with science or logic that God doesnt exist.
    this is not completely true. One can theorize that it could be possible to prove the lack of a higher beings existence. Im not saying it will ever happen, and definatley not in our life times, but it is theorectically possible. Proving a negative is VERY hard, not impossible.
    The point of calling something faith based is that its not something that is based on something that u can see or prove. People who believe in God can't physically prove that God exists. They cant prove by any method that God exists. They can give reasons as to theoretically why God exists. The barrier of death that sepereates people from God is wat also prevents you from proving that God doesnt exist. Thats why its called FAITH based. You cant say it doesnt exist, becuase in order to prove it with any validity you have to do something that is impossible.

    Now maybe you can say that well its theoretically possible for someone to die, go into watever afterlife there is (if it does exist) and not see a supreme being, come back to life and then tell everyone that they didnt see God. But even then, did you die? It really does become a paradox when ur trying to "prove" something like this. For now I dont really know how to verbalize wat im trying to say about something liek Faith, other than the fact that its not something to be proven or disproven.
    lots of things where thought to be impossible, hell you believe in a christian god, therefore you believe in jesus, therefore you are contradicting youself in saying that this is impossible. Seeing as he died, then rose from the dead.

    Also by your definition faith is relative to scientific fact. Before it was a scientific fact that bacteria and viruses are what cause illness, people had all sorts of wild and crazy explanations. In the case of the black plague, it was a common conception that it was a punishment from god. There where people that would go on pilgrimages across europe, self flogging the entire way. They thought this self punishment would make up for the sins that are causing the punishment. This was a matter of faith. Now we know how and why illness happens in most cases. So as you can see, something that seemed beyond our understanding and an act of god, later is explained by science and no longer has to do with faith. People back then would not believe that little microscopic 'animals' where the cause of their ailments. So I guess I cant expect believers to believe its possible to scientifically disprove thier faith.

    Im not saying 100% god doesnt exist, it is possible, but its also possible that at some point in the future an existence of a god could be disproven. How? I dont know.. its something that is nearly impossible to do, and if its ever done only people competent enough to understand the intense math and science behind it would believe anyways. So I guess it doesnt really matter.
  60. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    organized religion is more of a good thing than a bad thing.
    Politics are constantly slowed down by religion. And this isnt just about fanatics. People often chose who they vote for based on religious reasons. Hell.. look at education in america. There are battles being fought back and forth about whether evolution will be taught in schools or not. This is a huge example of religion doing very negative things. Next thing you know the KKK will get schools to stop teaching about the holocaust, because they dont believe it exists. I mean come the fuck on... Then theres the instances where people blindly side with one group just because they share the same religious orientation. For example jews in america, Im not saying all jews, but from what Ive seen a large amount of them support isreal. And they do so blindly. Both sides are fucked up in that situation, yet instead of trying to help support peace efforts, and being proactive, they send money to support israel over palestine.

    Then there are the countless times that religion has been twisted on a MASS scale to appease the ambitions of a less then moral character...
    read about what Rawls has to say about censorship and maybe u might agree with me about how taking an enternity to argue about these things might not be a bad thing.
    I dont understand what youre saying. Are you saying that we should value the fact that we are free to argue about this subject? Yes it is nice to not be deamed a heretic and burned at the stake.
  61. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    Quote Originally Posted by boostNslide
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    organized religion is more of a good thing than a bad thing.
    Politics are constantly slowed down by religion. And this isnt just about fanatics. People often chose who they vote for based on religious reasons. Hell.. look at education in america. There are battles being fought back and forth about whether evolution will be taught in schools or not. This is a huge example of religion doing very negative things. Next thing you know the KKK will get schools to stop teaching about the holocaust, because they dont believe it exists. I mean come the fuck on... Then theres the instances where people blindly side with one group just because they share the same religious orientation. For example jews in america, Im not saying all jews, but from what Ive seen a large amount of them support isreal. And they do so blindly. Both sides are fucked up in that situation, yet instead of trying to help support peace efforts, and being proactive, they send money to support israel over palestine.

    Then there are the countless times that religion has been twisted on a MASS scale to appease the ambitions of a less then moral character...
    read about what Rawls has to say about censorship and maybe u might agree with me about how taking an enternity to argue about these things might not be a bad thing.
    I dont understand what youre saying. Are you saying that we should value the fact that we are free to argue about this subject? Yes it is nice to not be deamed a heretic and burned at the stake.
    nope it has nothing to do with the freedom of.

    it has more to do with the value of having the discourse.
  62. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleece
    Its like somone looks at a rock and belives its a cat and when u tell them its a rock they say "how do u KNOW its not a cat?" "Because its a rock." "but how do u REALLY KNOW its a rock??"
    That really isn't a good example. That is not what faith is.
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  63. #63
    Greedo017's Avatar
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    Here is a better example of faith for you fleece:

    Two people looking at a very blurry picture.
    Person one: That is a cat.
    Person two: Hmm, i'm not sure what it is. Maybe it is a rock.
    Person one: IT IS A FUCKING CAT! DO YOU WANNA DIE?
    Person two: Oh, I was wrong, it is a cat.
    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  64. #64
    the arguement of theism vs atheism is pretty much unsolvable, so i don't bother with it. I mean you've basically just got two equally crazy groups. Group A has never seen god, rely's on only what they can see with their senses and decides there is no god simply because they can't see it. Group B Insists there is a god, and can explain away any arguement against god because of faith, and the fact that god is all-powerful, all-knowing, ulimately merciful and ultimately just (we'll ignore the contradiction there). Neither group has any reasonable evidence, so both are equally wrong imo.

    The only reason i tend to lean towards atheism is the fact that there are alot of reasons other than the fact that a god might exist that religions pop up. Ie. explain away unknowns, political tool, money maker and it gives alot of people hope.
  65. #65
    Greedo017's Avatar
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    I personally am agnostic. sounds like you are too. I don't really like people who have shut the door either way, because its impossible to believe/not believe in god for any good reason.

    But, I do think religions are all a bunch of crap. And, I do think its ridiculous to even entertain the idea of teaching creationism in schools.
    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  66. #66
    Atheist doesnt mean youve shut the door.

    If God came and spoke to me at a time when I wasnt wasted id probably decide he did exist.

    At the moment though Ive never met him, never spoken to him never seen him and hes never done anything that I cant explain in some other way.
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  67. #67
    If god ever came and spoke to me i would think i had developed paranoid schizophrenia and go see a doctor.

    all "moderate" christians say they never force their religion down people's throats.. but that's bullshit.... as soon as you have a kid you will be forcing it down their throat before they can even understand the words you're saying.

    faith/religion/whatever is a virus started by scared ignorant cavemen who didn't know what volcanoes and lightning and the sun was... the fact that it has survived this long is a testament to mankind's stupidity.

    oh yeah i voted atheist by the way.

    anyone heard of Richard Dawkins, otherwise known as "Darwin's Rottweiler"? He knows his shit.
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  68. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Greedo017
    But, I do think religions are all a bunch of crap. And, I do think its ridiculous to even entertain the idea of teaching creationism in schools.
    I think Creation should be taught in schools but I believe that evolution deserves to be taught as well. Sure, I believe in Creation, but I cannot prove it to be fact. I don't think there should be some huge curriculum teaching Creation or whatever but since Evolution is Theory and not proven fact, I think they should both be at least touched on when the subject arises.
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  69. #69
    Gareth's Avatar
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    Closed Minds will never find the answer - to me this includes religion and science.

    Religion - To follow it properly you have to believe without question what you are being told is correct.

    Science - Is similar in that if you don't agree with the consensus or "Respected" peoples views in a certain field then you will be outcasted by the "Respected" scientific world.

    I am not religious but I do feel there is some form of Creator (or creators) -

    Religion says ah yes this is God, he is this and he does that - All moulded from a human perspective.

    Science they ask for the proof - this might be possible for us to achieve, but it might just be a wee bit beyond us to achieve this.

    Religion/Faith = Science/Proof
    "To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle." - Confucius
  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les_Worm
    I think Creation should be taught in schools but I believe that evolution deserves to be taught as well. Sure, I believe in Creation, but I cannot prove it to be fact. I don't think there should be some huge curriculum teaching Creation or whatever but since Evolution is Theory and not proven fact, I think they should both be at least touched on when the subject arises.
    Creationism and Evolution: It's the American Way.
    Cell, Volume 124, Issue 3, Pages 449-451
    E. Scott

    "Another important reason that has enabled antievolutionism to take root is that America has a tradition of free speech, fairness, and letting everyone have their say. This admirable cultural quality is a great advantage when making political and social decisions about which opinion should be considered. It is, however, irrelevant in science. Whether the earth goes around the sun or the sun goes around the earth is not a matter of opinion. Whether living things descended with modification from common ancestors or were specially created at one time is not a matter of opinion, though some Americans would like to think so. Scientific knowledge grows as we make inferences from empirical evidence and test explanations: the scientific community has inferred from an overwhelming amount of evidence that, indeed, living things have descended with modification from common ancestors. Like all scientific explanations, evolutionary theory changes with new information and new ways of looking at data, but the big idea of evolution—common ancestry—remains solid."

    "The “theory” of ID is pretty thin stuff. The main claim is that evolution is an inadequate scientific theory; therefore, it is necessary to explain certain biological phenomena by resorting to the direct actions of an “intelligent agent,” whom no one doubts is God. Accordingly, ID's proponents offer a list of long-refuted creationist arguments about the supposed inadequacy of evolution: gaps in the fossil record, the impossibility of building complex organisms through natural selection, and so on.

    Because the religious underpinnings of ID were so clearly exposed in the Dover trial, ID is no longer a viable creationist strategy. The fallback creationist position will be to argue for “balancing” the teaching of evolution with alleged “evidence against evolution,” keeping the content of ID but avoiding the legally problematic intelligent agent. The leading ID think-tank, the Discovery Institute, is already promoting this view, which they call “teach the controversy.” Relying on the public's attraction to the fairness argument, they propose that students should be given “all the evidence” and be able to “decide for themselves.” Of course, the “evidence” is erroneous science, and few would argue that students' critical thinking skills are improved by teaching them incorrect information."
    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  71. #71
    Greedo017's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    Science - Is similar in that if you don't agree with the consensus or "Respected" peoples views in a certain field then you will be outcasted by the "Respected" scientific world.

    Science they ask for the proof - this might be possible for us to achieve, but it might just be a wee bit beyond us to achieve this.
    1. People disagree with other people's views all the time in science. It is not frowned upon. Nobody is "outcasted", except for maybe the doctor's on the infomercials who tell you to stop your chemotherapy and eat some japanese spicy salt and your cancer will go away.
    If, after something has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, you maintain it is not true and continue to provide poor arguments as to why it isn't, you will gradually be ignored. However, scrutiny and dissent are fundamental to science.

    2. Religion is 100% faith. Something believed by faith can by definition not be proven. Your line of logic can be used to say that every single thing that anyone wants to say might be proven correct sometime in the future, so long as some mystical magic event occurs at an undetermined time in an undetermined way to prove it so.
    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  72. #72
    Gareth's Avatar
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    Greedo wrote:
    Your line of logic can be used to say that every single thing that anyone wants to say might be proven correct sometime in the future, so long as some mystical magic event occurs at an undetermined time in an undetermined way to prove it so.
    I meant - who is to say that we as humans can prove everything we set our minds at trying to prove.
    "To see what is right, and not to do it, is want of courage or of principle." - Confucius
  73. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    Closed Minds will never find the answer - to me this includes religion and science.
    agree
    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    Religion - To follow it properly you have to believe without question what you are being told is correct.
    disagree
    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    Science - Is similar in that if you don't agree with the consensus or "Respected" peoples views in a certain field then you will be outcasted by the "Respected" scientific world.
    agree
    I'm a know-it-all.




    No, really.
  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    I meant - who is to say that we as humans can prove everything we set our minds at trying to prove.
    I don't see how this changes my point. We are looking at something that basically can never ever be proven true. There is a difference between this and science. We may not understand how to go 2 million mph and teleport to the moon, but that doesn't mean we say it can never be done. God does not exist in the world as we know it, therefore we say it can never be proven he exists anywhere at all.

    I actually turn this around on you. Is this not the perfect reason NOT to believe there is a god, but that we just have yet to understand everything about our world, and maybe we never will?
    i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
  75. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    Closed Minds will never find the answer - to me this includes religion and science.

    Religion - To follow it properly you have to believe without question what you are being told is correct.

    Science - Is similar in that if you don't agree with the consensus or "Respected" peoples views in a certain field then you will be outcasted by the "Respected" scientific world.

    I am not religious but I do feel there is some form of Creator (or creators) -

    Religion says ah yes this is God, he is this and he does that - All moulded from a human perspective.

    Religion/Faith = Science/Proof
    thats retarded. theories in science have been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. religion is speculation and nobody can disagree with that.

    if you dont believe the boiling point of water is 100C then yeah, you deserve to be outcasted because youre a fucking moron.

    im not entirely atheist but this post is seriously so dumb it hurts.

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