Theist or Atheist?

[euphoricism]

I know one thing. I believe in GOD and have faith he exist. We will all find out when we die. If I'm wrong, then I lived a life that was good and one that I treated people right and kind. If I'm right (which I believe I am) then when I die I will be walking streets of gold and be wealthy beyond comprehension.

If the athiest is right then when he dies hopefully he will have lived a good life where he treated people the way he would like to be treated. If the athiest is wrong (which I believe he is) then he will be burning in hell.

To me, walking streets of gold sounds alot more +EV than burning in hell for eternity.

Pascal, meet wager. Wager, meet Pascal. Both, meet logical fallacy. Logical fallacy, take these two outside and beat them.

[JetA_Jockey]

Religion is such a big business now that turns many away.

get an NIV bible, wal-mart has em for 20 bucks.

hmmmmmmm

if you can't find yourself spending money on a Bible, give me your address and I'll send you mine. I'm serious.

this one went rrrright over your head eh? I dont think he wants a bible, the point is that you put organized religion down for being a 'big business' now, and then you tell him to go to walmart (the destroyer of small business) and buy a bible....

i realized that, i just wanted to put forth the aspect that true believers don't want your money.

[boost]

So the bible publishers arent true believers?

[JetA_Jockey]

I never said that, but thanks for implying it :]

It would take true believers to spend the amount of time they took translating and correlating it to make sure it was as accurate as humanly possible. And I think they just recoup their losses on the cost of making such a large book.. Even if they don't, most true christian churches would(should) give you one if you asked.

[boost]

military recruitment offices will happily give you free literature on how great the military is.

[JetA_Jockey]

sure, and atheists will quickly try to pick apart any chance of hope.

[JetA_Jockey]

btw my older brother is an Army recruiter lol <>

[Warpe]

sure, and atheists will quickly try to pick apart any chance of hope.

And therein lies the crux of the matter...

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

Hope, or people's lack thereof, is the reason why.

Atheists are just people that don't require an invisible means of support.

[potdragn]

Ok, this is going to be a stupid analgy here I'm fixing to use. Your free to call me ignorant, I can live with that. Here we go. Do you believe that King Arthur lived? Do you have proof? There are writings he lived and documentation of his exploits. But those were written by scribes, who would follow him around and give their interpretation of his adventures. History books are filled with data that none of us can say actually existed or happened. We have to take the word of those who wrote about them. We have to have faith that the writings are true, even when the only supporting data are words written on paper that were found hundreds of years after the death of whoever it was written about.

But the Bible is not a factual source. It is a story book. Damnit, wasnt Jesus known to speak in parables? Thats what it is, a book of stories. You cant take things from the Bible and interpret them literally.

You said that acting good is not going to get you into heaven. What Im saying is, if I am good my whole life, but never went to Church or even believed in Jesus, youre saying I wouldnt make it into heaven? Like boostnslide said, who wants that to be their god?

And what about Muslims or Jews? You never answered his question. Are they damned to hellfire, even though they worship the same God? Jews believe Christians will burn for worshipping a false Messiah. As boostnslide said, cant you see how counterproductive and silly this all is?

[Rabid Dog]

Ok, this is going to be a stupid analgy here I'm fixing to use.

yah.. that was pretty fucking stupid .. seeing as King Arthur is as real as Robin Hood, or Odyseus, or James Bond.

LOL, I told you it was a stupid analagy. But Im sure you can figure out where I was going with this analagy. How about someone you believe is real then, from an era all we have is paper documentation of his/her being real. How do you know this person is real. Atlantis has never been found has it? Yet it is proclaimed to be real. There are places people say are Atlantis but I dont think it has been proven has it? Im not a history buff, I barely read the news mostly because I could care less about whats in the news. The King Arthur as you said was a stupid analagy. So pick any knight from that era, there were knights and their were scribes that followed folks around documenting their lives. Yet all we actually have are pieces of paper with writing to proove it.

[boost]

yes... but whats written in the bible isnt even a first hand account. You are making a bad comparison. You are trying to compare the bible to written accounts of events that were put on paper as they happened. Even with these events we cant know for sure. The best we can do is verify the story from various accounts, and take maliable evidence into account then form a conclusion. No such thing canbe done with the bible. Also Atlantis is another bad example, there are some things that Plato (sp?) wrote that have been proven to be historical, such as troy. There is however the fact that one of his works is historical does not prove that all are.

Also you are chosing to interprit the thing about non believers going to hell in a fairly harsh way, if you ask me. What constitutes a believer? Wouldnt a person that believes in jesus's teachings of living an honest moral life be a believer? Does god really need to have his e-ego (earth ego hehe) stroked that bad? If you believe in being a good person and try to do so, how are you not a believer?

[Pelion]

Ok, this is going to be a stupid analgy here I'm fixing to use.

yah.. that was pretty fucking stupid .. seeing as Father Christmas is as real as Robin Hood, or Odyseus, or James Bond.

LOL, I told you it was a stupid analogy. But Im sure you can figure out where I was going with this analogy. How about someone you believe is real then, from an era all we have is paper documentation of his/her being real. How do you know this person is real. Father Christmas has never been found has he? Yet it he proclaimed to be real. There are places people say are Father Christmas' grotto but I dont think it has been proven has it? Im not a history buff, I barely read the news mostly because I could care less about whats in the news. The Father Christmas as you said was a stupid analagy. So pick any christmas present deliverer even the average postman from that era, there were knights and their were father christmas' that followed father christmases around documenting their lives. Yet all we actually have are pieces of presents with writing to prove it.

FYP

P.S. Im wasted as a geordie in the snow. You know what im talkin bout miffed

[boost]

that doesnt fix anything.. no sane adult believse in santa claus (the character that lives on the north pole and has a team of umpa lumpas making toys for all the lil kids... cuz we all know that asians make all the cool toys, yes they are short in stature, but not quite elfs.) We do however know of a historical figure that did hand outs toys to kids and put lumps of coal in the stockings of bad ones as a sort of trick. So theres really no mistery here.

[Pelion]

cuz we all know that asians make all the cool toys, yes they are short in stature, but not quite elfs.) We do however know of a historical figure that did hand outs toys to kids and put lumps of coal in the stockings of bad ones as a sort of trick.

Was it the guy who now owns Toys R Us???

[boost]

do I even need to dignify that with a response?

obv yes..

[Rabid Dog]

So Im curious rabbid, what is a true believer? How about a muslim. They believe in god, thier god really isnt THAT different then yours, same with jews.

Ive got a friend who is Jewish. He tells me that everyone has the same GOD. Everyones GOD is the same GOD. It just depends on what origin you are from as to how you interpret GOD and what he means to you. Like I said he is Jewish and so denies Jesus Christ. Well he denies him the way we as christians believe about Jesus. He will tell you however that Jesus was alive and did walk the earth, but he was no more than a mere mortal man. That christians are the ones who built him up into a diety. I cant say he's right or wrong, all I can do is go by the facts I have and believe in them.

So are you telling me that most of the people born in the middle east are damned to hell.

I can not answer this because I know nothing about how they believe, and sorry I cant just take the word of someone that they believe one way opposed to another. I know nothing about their writtings so I have nothing to base judgement on, sorry.

Dont you see the foolishness in this?

Goes both directions really.

What about 'believers' who do less then moral things in thier life? Did all the popes go to heaven?

This is a misguided falasy here. Everyone thinks christians are perfect. Some christians even think they are perfect. The true and honest fact is no one is perfect. Whether you are christian or just a person who try's to do right by people, you are going to screw up somewhere along the way. Its just a given. Those who think a person who is christian is sin free or never commits a sin after he has become a christian are just fooling themselves. The difference is GOD has forgiven believers of their sins.

If you know anything about christian history (true christian history.. Im not sure how much of this you can learn at your local church) you would know theres quite a bit of corruption and intrigue in the church.

Unfortunately church is no different than any government. You have corruption in most every form of government. Its sad to say. We in America claim to live in a free society, right? America is more communistic than most tend to believe. Same can be said for lots of churches. But is it fair to group all churches into this catagory? No. Just as its not fair to group all americans or government officials into the communistic type catagory (I wont go any further with this because I dont want to get into it, sorry).

Do these people simply have to repent on thier death bed and they get to walk the gold paved streets?

Some fool themselves into thinking this way. They think well I have my whole life to repent as you say. I'm pretty confident that GOD can sort those folks out. Some think they can confess their belief in GOD and then just go out and live their lives the same way they have and never change. But because they confessed their belief in GOD they are saved and are guaranteed their place in heaven. If this is the case, then my question is, were you really saved to start with? Or was you just thinking its a safety valve to cover yourself either way. Again, Im pretty sure GOD can sort those folks out.

How about the person that is a great upstanding person, lets say princess diana was not a 'believer'... are you telling me she would go to hell?

All I'm telling you is thats what the bible says, not what I say. I am not the one who Princes Diana has to stand before and be judged. Sorry

Yet a corrupt pope that repents would get in?

Again, my faith is that GOD will be able to sort these folks out, it is not for me to judge. But while we are at it, popes are not the only corrupt individuals around. You have corruption in both the secular and the christian world. Probably more in the secular. But because it is a christian that was corrupt it is brought to the fore front more. Thats the way society works.

This is ridiculous, and if this is the way that god works, then I say fuck him.

Your choice, not mine. Im not going to judge you either way. We just dont share the same views on this subject and for me thats ok. Hopefully it is for you also.

Dont you see how much of an obvious 'recruitment' tool this is? Its pretty sick... scaring people into believing, and of course donating... JetA is wrong, religion hasnt become a big business, it always has been.. hah..

And if you read my whole post up there, somewhere I made the statement that religion is a death sentence. To many religions and nationalities take the bible and twist it around to suit their needs. Thats why their are so many different denominations. Simply because at some point someone within the church decided that he/she didnt like the way their denomination was interpreting the bible and decided to branch off and start their own denomination and use some things from this denomination and some things from another denomination and maybe 3 or 4 others and make up their own denomination (wow, talk about a long sentence). Anyhow they pick and choose out of the bible what they want and place that in their guidelines. This is what I'm talking about when I say religion will kill you.

Let me give you an example. My pastor has been on this soapbox about gambling lately (probably because we just got the lottery in our state). Anyhow he's harping on how its sinful and against the word. Yet no where in the bible does it specifically state that gambling is a sin. What it does say though that love of money and waste of money is a sin. So ok, he puts gambling into the waste of money catagory because its a game of chance. Yet where does going out to the movies fall? Or an expensive dinner with your spouse? Or buying a tv. Valentines day, Mothers day, Fathers day? All semi holidays brought about by commercialism so department stores can sell more of a specific product. Hence in reality a waste of money so it should be condemned as a sin (we should not need commercialism to tell us when to show love to our spouse or parents, that should be a daily thing). But why is this not catagorized in with gambling. Simple answer is society.

The best we as christians can do is to find a church which follows as closely to how we believe and interpret the bible and go from their and hopefully not get caught up in the religion aspect of the church. This is basically what I mean by religion will kill you.

I hope I didnt step on any toes or offend anyone. These views are the way I view them, so if I did, sorry. Also sorry for the length.

[Estrop]

Speaking of religion..

[Warpe]

You guys do realize that this is the neverending thread, don't you?

[Pelion]

Rabid Dog


The point is that it IS your place to judge. If your God is one who will let Hitler into heaven just because he repents on his deathbed then show some spine and FUCK HIM!!!

If it turns out that that dont make the darndest bit of difference, then good for God, thats how it ought to be... I still dont believe in him but ur first in the queue.... did you live ur life better?? aparently you did. Well done fella, ill meet you there if it doesnt matter that i didnt think about bad stuff... and if it did then fuck him stil,l cos im not following anyone, all powerfull or not, whos only prerequisite is that you have to pretend to like other people...


I really hope God exists, truley I do. The whole world would be a very much nicer place....which is exactly the point...

[Rabid Dog]

You said that acting good is not going to get you into heaven.

I said that the bible doesnt say if you are good you will get into heaven. It lays out specifically in there how we get to heaven and does not say all you have to be is good. I am not the one who says this, so dont put that on me. Its in the bible, not something I made up. What Im saying is, if I am good my whole life, but never went to Church or even believed in Jesus, youre saying I wouldnt make it into heaven?[/quote]

Going to church does not give you a ticket into heaven and too many folks believe that it does. Church is a place to go and learn more about the Lord and fellowship with other christians. Church is and should be a place to draw strength and renew your faith. Simply going to church every Sunday will not get you into heaven.

Like boostnslide said, who wants that to be their god?

The question is not who wants to be their GOD. It was do you believe in GOD or not? Theist or Atheist. Everyone has a choice, and you just hope and have faith that in the end your choice was the right one. Because in the end its too late to change choices.

And what about Muslims or Jews? You never answered his question. Are they damned to hellfire, even though they worship the same God? Jews believe Christians will burn for worshipping a false Messiah. As boostnslide said, cant you see how counterproductive and silly this all is?

Hopefully I answered it in reply to boost. Or at least the best I can. I'm not a theologist, just as I'm not a politician or even political minded. This is why I dont get into discussions over who is right and who is wrong. Most of the time these discussions only turn into a war of words. This discussion has not. Its been a civil discussion and is the only reason I decided to participate. I can not answer for other nationalities as to whether their way of thinking is right and mine is wrong, or mine is right and theirs is wrong. I havent read their documentation on the matter and frankly dont care to. All I can do is go by what I have faith in and believe in. Just as the same can be said for you or anyone else. And I would certainly hope that if someone was to tell you one way or the other that you wouldnt take their word for it but go and find out what it says for yourself. Whether that be the bible, the koran or whatever it is your discussing. Dont let your mind be swayed by what someone tells you. Otherwise you'll be believing like the example of the dinosaur bones story was fact. Ive never read anywhere in the bible where that was fact. But if someone told me that and I never checked then I would never know and probably end up taking his word for it. Thats how rumors get started. If someone tells you something, I dont care how much you respect this person or how much integrity this person has. Go to the source and see if thats what it really says. Whether your discussing christian belief, jewish belief, islam, muslim whatever, always go to the source and confirm it.

Take my views whichever way you see fit. Its just the way I choose to believe, like atheist is the way a number of you choose to believe. I dont hold that against you and hopefully you dont hold my belief against me.

No matter which way anyone believes, there is always a side that can say "What about this, or What about that"? Or "If your right then why does or did this happen?" Any question the atheist brings up can be turned around by the christian. And any answer the christian replies with can be turned around by the atheist. Its as simple as that.

[Rabid Dog]

Also you are chosing to interprit the thing about non believers going to hell in a fairly harsh way, if you ask me. What constitutes a believer? Wouldnt a person that believes in jesus's teachings of living an honest moral life be a believer? Does god really need to have his e-ego (earth ego hehe) stroked that bad? If you believe in being a good person and try to do so, how are you not a believer?

Again, all I can say is it doesnt say in the bible that just being a good person will get you into heaven. I cant change that. I only have that to go on. Thats just an answer that we have to wait on to find out I guess.

[Pelion]

Going to church does not give you a ticket into heaven and too many folks believe that it does. Church is a place to go and learn more about the Lord and fellowship with other christians. Church is and should be a place to draw strength and renew your faith. Simply going to church every Sunday will not get you into heaven.

You seem to believe that you will get into heaven if you believe in Jesus+ God and not if you don't. This is also what I interpret the bible to mean but it isnt the point.


Do you believe that someone who is good their entire lives should be punished?

Do you believe someone who is wicked their entire lives but repents in the end should be allowed into heaven in preference to the fellow above? and yes he does of course mean it

If you do then you are not worth arguing with Sir, since whether or not you belive in God you shoud NOT go to heaven (and let us not forget that you shoud judge not lest ye be judged). If you believe you should then I ask why you believe God has decided it is wrong for those who have led perfectly kind lives to go to hell over something as insignificant as belief, when we have otherwise lived our lives as HE intended.

[euphoricism]

I have an invisible, noncorporeal dragon living in my garage.

Do you believe me? Why not? You have no proof he DOESNT exist, therefore, with your reasoning, he must exist and actually be in my garage. Do you see the problem?

[bigred]

I have an invisible, noncorporeal dragon living in my garage.

Do you believe me? Why not? You have no proof he DOESNT exist, therefore, with your reasoning, he must exist and actually be in my garage. Do you see the problem?

You also have a dragon? Mine shoots fire. His name is Firery Fred.

[a500lbgorilla]

I have an invisible, noncorporeal dragon living in my garage.

Do you believe me? Why not? You have no proof he DOESNT exist, therefore, with your reasoning, he must exist and actually be in my garage. Do you see the problem?

What's His name?

[Rabid Dog]

You guys do realize that this is the neverending thread, don't you?

Yes, lol

[Rabid Dog]

Rabid Dog


The point is that it IS your place to judge. If your God is one who will let Hitler into heaven just because he repents on his deathbed then show some spine and FUCK HIM!!!

Show me where it says its my place to judge. You cant honestly think that when someone is on their death bed and they decide well I better get things right now that Im dieing, GOD isnt capable of sorting that out. Pelion, I have nothing to proove to you. Judging someone does not give you a so called spine.

If it turns out that that dont make the darndest bit of difference, then good for God, thats how it ought to be... I still dont believe in him but ur first in the queue.... did you live ur life better?? aparently you did. Well done fella, ill meet you there if it doesnt matter that i didnt think about bad stuff... and if it did then fuck him stil,l cos im not following anyone, all powerfull or not

Totally your choice. And like I've said, Im not going to judge you or anyone else on the choice they make.
[qoute] whos only prerequisite is that you have to pretend to like other people...[/quote]
Dont know where your going here. I dont think anyone on here said the only prerequisite was that you pretend to like other people.

I really hope God exists, truley I do. The whole world would be a very much nicer place....which is exactly the point...

Agreed

[Pelion]

Dont know where your going here. I dont think anyone on here said the only prerequisite was that you pretend to like other people.

That was all down to the " I love God because its +EV" comment which i personally think is wrong in every single possible way and if God exists he should hate it too or i dont want to know him because I have principles.

[Rabid Dog]

You seem to believe that you will get into heaven if you believe in Jesus+ God and not if you don't. This is also what I interpret the bible to mean but it isnt the point.

Exactly what I have been saying. Its what the bible states.

Do you believe that someone who is good their entire lives should be punished?

Obviously as I stated before, its not my position to judge. All I can say is I have not found anywhere in the bible that says if you are good you will go to heaven. Yeah you can say well thats just wrong. And in our way of thinking I guess that it is. But if your going by what the bible says then I just havent found it in there where it says if your good you will go to heaven. I wish it was, and if someone finds it, let me know, I will go and look it up myself.

Do you believe someone who is wicked their entire lives but repents in the end should be allowed into heaven in preference to the fellow above? and yes he does of course mean it

I think that is just a safety valve excuse really. I mean honestly do you believe GOD is so stupid to not be able to sort this out.

If you do then you are not worth arguing with Sir, since whether or not you belive in God you shoud NOT go to heaven (and let us not forget that you shoud judge not lest ye be judged). Hmm, I will have to go see if this is there, I dont ever remember reading it, maybe you could point me to the verse. I do know it states that he who is without sin cast the first stone. And I dont think anyone can honestly cast a stone.

If you believe you should then I ask why you believe God has decided it is wrong for those who have led perfectly kind lives to go to hell over something as insignificant as belief, when we have otherwise lived our lives as HE intended.

Again, Im not a theologist, and I'm certainly not GOD. All I have to go on is what I read in the bible.

Let me say this. If you read the bible and you interpret that all you have to do is be a good person and your ticket is punched and your going to heaven. Then good for you. Hopefully you will be right. Maybe you can point me to where the verse is that states this also. All I can do is go by what I have read in the bible and I just havent found that verse that say being good is all that is required. Sorry if this doesnt answer your question. Im not judging you or anyone else for the way you think or believe. Thats your choice and I totally respect it. All I ask is that you respect my choice on the way I believe. If you cant, then I can live with that. My life and world does not revolve around whether I get anyones approval or not on the way I believe. Just as your world should not revolve around whether I agree with your beliefs.

[dj newman]

I will wade into the neverending thread once more,

There is actually more proof that a man called Jesus lived...not just from the bible, but from outside sources. He has been documented by a Roman scribe....can't remember the scribes name offhand. In fact, there is more documentation about Jesus than most other people in history (excluding current history).

The god of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, is the same god...if you trace it back far enough (God of Abraham). In fact, back 1000 years ago, the islams believed that christians were the same as them...and would not try and convert them from their religion. The differences now have more to do with the leaders of the religions.

You should see the bible as more of a guide...

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled....was convincing the world he didn't exist.

Keaton once said "I don't believe in god....but I am afraid of him." Well Agent Kujan, "I believe in god....but I am afraid of Kaiser Soze"

[Pelion]

Rabid Dog

I believe I am a good person but I also belive that I have made some mistakes and am certainly not without sin. Remember Jesus seemed disapprove of gambling when he got angry for that one and only time and turned a table upside down.

You seem to have altered one of my quotes which im sure Jesus would have disapproved of (although i dont presume to guess his thinking on such matters).

You are agreeeing with me on all but the suttle matter of whether or not God exists.

If we agree that God exists (for examples sake) and we agree that whether or not you are good does not affect whether or not you take a place in heaven (only whether or not you truly believe in God/jesus does) then all we disagree on is whether or not God is good. I argue that if he does not allow those who have led good lives into heaven because they did not believe in him, then he is not worth siding with, whether he exists or not. I have not been struck by lightning since this thought occured, and nor do I intend to be. If he does indeed exist I will find out when I die and It will quite possibly be the most embarresssing moment of my death if he does... " excuse me sire i am very sorry but the whole thing seemed kind of silly at the time...."

If he does not then I wont be around to even think about gloating. That does not, in my opinion change whether or not I should believe in hin, since it does not change any of the facts. Obviosly you are not in the mood to try and convince me of His existance as i am not in the mood to convince you of his disexistance but just tell me this.

Assuming he does exist, and he does condemn otherwise good people to hell for not beliveing in him. Do you still believe God is good? It is not anymore a question of whether or not you believe in him as it is obvious that you do... but do you belive that he is good?

[Rabid Dog]

Rabid Dog

I believe I am a good person but I also belive that I have made some mistakes and am certainly not without sin. Remember Jesus seemed disapprove of gambling when he got angry for that one and only time and turned a table upside down.

If I remember correctly it was because of where the gambling was taking place. In his fathers house.

You seem to have altered one of my quotes which im sure Jesus would have disapproved of (although i dont presume to guess his thinking on such matters).

I did not alter your post. I simply posed a question and statement within your post and put it in BOLD so you could see it. I didnt change anything you said.

You are agreeeing with me on all but the suttle matter of whether or not God exists.

Im sorry, I thought I made it clear that I believe GOD does indeed exist.

If we agree that God exists (for examples sake) and we agree that whether or not you are good does not affect whether or not you take a place in heaven

Im sorry but I dont agree that just being a good person gets you into heaven. I think this is the sticking point on you and I. But I dont have a problem with how you believe. Like I said thats your choice and I respect that.

(only whether or not you truly believe in God/jesus does) then all we disagree on is whether or not God is good. I argue that if he does not allow those who have led good lives into heaven because they did not believe in him, then he is not worth siding with, whether he exists or not.

And I have stated many times thats yours or anyone elses choice to make. We are individuals and we make our choices by ourselves and for ourselves. I cannot make any choice for you just like you cannot make any choice for me. If you prefer to not believe, I can live with that. It doesnt change my choice. Just as my choosing to believe shouldnt change your choice.

If he does indeed exist I will find out when I die and It will quite possibly be the most embarresssing moment of my death if he does... " excuse me sire i am very sorry but the whole thing seemed kind of silly at the time...."

See thats funny. We can laugh at ourselves.

If he does not then I wont be around to even think about gloating. That does not, in my opinion change whether or not I should believe in hin, since it does not change any of the facts. Obviosly you are not in the mood to try and convince me of His existance as i am not in the mood to convince you of his disexistance but just tell me this.

Exactly why I try not to get into these type discussions. Because lets face it. No one wins in these. I prefer to leave it with just letting the individuals make the choice they wish to make. All I can go with is what is written in the bible and thats what I try and follow. I dont hold it against anyone who chooses not to believe the way I do. Just because I dont agree with you or you dont agree with me on this subject, doesnt mean latter in life we wont agree on a totally different subject. Thats just life.

Assuming he does exist, and he does condemn otherwise good people to hell for not beliveing in him. Do you still believe God is good? It is not anymore a question of whether or not you believe in him as it is obvious that you do... but do you belive that he is good?

Absolutely without question. I dont hold it against him because it clearly states in the bible that "That GOD so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life". Im sorry it just doesnt say "That GOD so loved the earth that all good people will go to heaven". The only thing he ask is that you truly believe in him, not falsely state it because you think it will get you there, or your dieing and think its time to make amends, but truley believe it. I think he's smart enough to realize if your confessing it on your death bed that you probably dont actually mean it but are just trying to cover your butt.

Thats all I can stand on. Sorry it doesnt say differently. And if this means you dislike him for it, then thats your choice to make. I dont judge you for it and it is not my position to judge you for it. Its your life, not mine.

I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this discussion because it seems to be turning towards the reason I dont get into these discussions and Im just not a debating type person.

Continue on people and have a great day.

Edit: I edited out "That may not be word for word, but is what it says." on the quote I made referering to the qoute I made from the bible starting "For GOD so loved. Because I did post the verse word for word but left this phrase in by accident. So I have come back and edited it so as not to confuse.

[boost]

rabid, all I can say is you are dodging questions and being sketchy. I did not ask you all that. I really dispise christians that tell me that if you dont except jesus christ as your savior you are going to hell, then when you present them with an inteligent question they go on babling about this and that and how its written in the bible and not thier words but gods. I really dont want to get mean here, but grow some fucking balls and own up to your beliefs.

[boost]

Also you are chosing to interprit the thing about non believers going to hell in a fairly harsh way, if you ask me. What constitutes a believer? Wouldnt a person that believes in jesus's teachings of living an honest moral life be a believer? Does god really need to have his e-ego (earth ego hehe) stroked that bad? If you believe in being a good person and try to do so, how are you not a believer?

Again, all I can say is it doesnt say in the bible that just being a good person will get you into heaven. I cant change that. I only have that to go on. Thats just an answer that we have to wait on to find out I guess.

again youre dodging the question, I did not ask you what you can and cant say, I asked an intelligent question and you threw an automated response at me. I believe you quoted the passage that talks about how you get accepted into heaven. If that wasnt quoted directly from the bible, I would like it if you could give me the quote. Please stop tell me that you are uncomfortable discussing this with me, or stop dodging my questions with these silly hollow responses. Its really insulting.

[Rabid Dog]

rabid, all I can say is you are dodging questions and being sketchy. I did not ask you all that. I really dispise christians that tell me that if you dont except jesus christ as your savior you are going to hell, then when you present them with an inteligent question they go on babling about this and that and how its written in the bible and not thier words but gods. I really dont want to get mean here, but grow some fucking balls and own up to your beliefs.

Im sorry. Go ahead and pose your question again and I will try and answer it for you to your standards. I thought I answered you but apparently I didnt. I may not be giving you the answer you want to hear, but it will be the answer I believe is right going by what the bible says.

Shoot boost. Your going to have to re post your question though because I dont want to go look it up.

[Pelion]

rabid, all I can say is you are dodging questions and being sketchy. I did not ask you all that. I really dispise christians that tell me that if you dont except jesus christ as your savior you are going to hell, then when you present them with an inteligent question they go on babling about this and that and how its written in the bible and not thier words but gods. I really dont want to get mean here, but grow some fucking balls and own up to your beliefs.

But that really is quite an important part of the christian belief. It isnt about being good. its about believing in him. Thats what makes God evil, and if God is Satan then Satan must be like.... Michael Jackson or something :/

[boost]

dude.. seriously quit blaming me, thats also insulting. Its like I asked "whats 2+2?" and you start off with "well you see.. the thing is.."

I dont need to re-ask or rephrase my questions, they are just above, take a look and actually try to answer this time.

[Rabid Dog]

rabid, all I can say is you are dodging questions and being sketchy. I did not ask you all that. I really dispise christians that tell me that if you dont except jesus christ as your savior you are going to hell, then when you present them with an inteligent question they go on babling about this and that and how its written in the bible and not thier words but gods. I really dont want to get mean here, but grow some fucking balls and own up to your beliefs.

Im going to assume these are the questions you are talking about. They can all be answered by one verse in the bible John 3:16. It was quoted word for word from our NIV bible. I do realize that at the end of that quote I stated it may not be word for word, thats because when I actually quoted the verse I was going by memory. Then thought I better not go by memory but by actual verse. So I went and pulled it from the bible. Unfortunately I didnt delete the phrase where I stated it may not be word for word. I will go back and fix that so as not to confuse.

I hope this has answered your question. If not then point me in the direction you are trying to go and I will do my best. Like I said, Im not a theologian and I really dont desire to get into debates over theory whether biblical or mathimatical or scientific.

[Pelion]

Boost. Im gunna answer for him as best as I know how. Im not 100% sure of your question and I dont even believe in God but here it goes.


If you do not believe in God + Jesus at the moment of your death, and im talking truly believe not just the kind of "oh shit that bullet went pretty deep, better pray just incase sorta way", then you WILL go to hell. If you do believe and feel kinda sorry about all the girls you raped then you will go to heaven.


This is the way I understand it and its just fucked up. Please will some christian correct me if im wrong... and I really do hope im wrong because there is nothing just about this.

[Estrop]

Ok let me fill you guys in. There is a God, but not the way in which most people think. Religions were created to try and answer the question, "What is the purpose of life?" Without the answer to this question being that a supreme being created life and watches over us, humans find that they cannot function properly as the only other answer is that we are alive only by chance; it was luck that created us.

Yes, there is a "God". Someone created the first of everything and it developed, maybe intentionally, to what life is today. The belief that there is a heaven and hell is to make life easier and to give people meaning, otherwise their actions would be meaningless.

You can't argue whenever this is true or not, but if the answer was as simple as one of the religions, we would know about it.

[Rabid Dog]

dude.. seriously quit blaming me, thats also insulting. Its like I asked "whats 2+2?" and you start off with "well you see.. the thing is.."

I dont need to re-ask or rephrase my questions, they are just above, take a look and actually try to answer this time.

I dont think I have been blaming you for anything. When I posted that I obviously had missed your question. I thought you were refering to something asked on another page or further back in the post. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[boost]

rabbid, wheres the bible quote? sorry Im lost..? Is the passage baout how you get into heaven John 3:16? (tried to think up a stone cold joke to put in here... but Im runnin low on material..) I dont exactly have a bible handy.. could you quote it for me by chance? Id appreciate it.

[Pelion]

...humans find that they cannot function properly as the only other answer is that we are alive only by chance; it was luck that created us.

I believe that we are alive only by chance, yet somehow I still manage to function.

[Estrop]

...humans find that they cannot function properly as the only other answer is that we are alive only by chance; it was luck that created us.

I believe that we are alive only by chance, yet somehow I still manage to function.

The fact that you think you can function tells me that you cannot function.

[Pelion]

...humans find that they cannot function properly as the only other answer is that we are alive only by chance; it was luck that created us.

I believe that we are alive only by chance, yet somehow I still manage to function.

The fact that you think you can function tells me that you cannot function.

The fact that you think I cannot function after reading a few internet messageboard posts tells me that you dont know the first fucking thing about me.... so tell me.... what doesnt function about me?

[Rabid Dog]

rabbid, wheres the bible quote? sorry Im lost..? Is the passage baout how you get into heaven John 3:16? (tried to think up a stone cold joke to put in here... but Im runnin low on material..) I dont exactly have a bible handy.. could you quote it for me by chance? Id appreciate it.

I'm sorry. My misunderstanding. Yes the quote I made was from John 3:16 "That GOD so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".

That is word for word quote from the NIV bible. It is your choice to interpret it however you see fit. To me its pretty clear. I'm not going to judge you either way.

Again though. I do not wish to get into a theoligy debate. It just has never been my thing. Hope that is what you were looking for.

[bigred]

Proof Jesus exists!!!!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1&q=family+guy

[|~|ypermegachi]

If you do not believe in God + Jesus at the moment of your death, and im talking truly believe not just the kind of "oh shit that bullet went pretty deep, better pray just incase sorta way", then you WILL go to hell. If you do believe and feel kinda sorry about all the girls you raped then you will go to heaven.


This is the way I understand it and its just fucked up. Please will some christian correct me if im wrong... and I really do hope im wrong because there is nothing just about this.

you're wrong.
you must believe in Christ.
you must repent for your sins.

btw, you can't fake your repentance. God will know.

also, i'm agnostic. some of you may recalled a couple months back when i stated that i was becoming Christian and there was a thread about ethics about taking money from others.

anyways, as far as religion goes, i will only respect someone who discovered God for themselves, not the other way around. i find it highly disrespectful for themselves, as well as for the organization they represent, if they declare themselves as something, without knowing what it means to be that.

i know some people who call themselves Catholics, and don't know what transubstantiation is, or even heard of it. complete ignorance. makes themselves look like fools and makes Catholicism look bad.

anyways, personally for me that made me go back agnostic (i'm a firm believer that we cannot prove/disprove the existence of God, so logically i'm required to be agnostic, not atheist), was looking at the history of Christianity. there are many religions that existed before Christianity that had strikingly similar themes....ie Son of God born from a virgin, crucified, comes back in 3 days, will sit at the right hand of God, and come back at final judgement.

[Estrop]

...humans find that they cannot function properly as the only other answer is that we are alive only by chance; it was luck that created us.

I believe that we are alive only by chance, yet somehow I still manage to function.

The fact that you think you can function tells me that you cannot function.

The fact that you think I cannot function after reading a few internet messageboard posts tells me that you dont know the first fucking thing about me.... so tell me.... what doesnt function about me?

The fact that you're getting angry that after reading a few Internet messageboard posts tells me that you can't function.

[vqc]

Boost is jujst really angry that u believe in something that condemns a bunch of people becuase u interpret John 3:16 in one way rather than another.

[Pelion]

...humans find that they cannot function properly as the only other answer is that we are alive only by chance; it was luck that created us.

I believe that we are alive only by chance, yet somehow I still manage to function.

The fact that you think you can function tells me that you cannot function.

The fact that you think I cannot function after reading a few internet messageboard posts tells me that you dont know the first fucking thing about me.... so tell me.... what doesnt function about me?

The fact that you're getting angry that after reading a few Internet messageboard posts tells me that you can't function.

who said i was angry??

Tell me, what do you know about me? Or was that whole question dodging line indicative of a big fat nothing?

[Pelion]

you're wrong.
you must believe in Christ.
you must repent for your sins.

ya isnt that what i said? Ok i didnt explicitly say repent, but it was very much implied... and its still fucked up if the whole repent on your deathbed thing skips the heaven queue while the unbeliever who has led a life of helping old ladies cross the street is condemned to hell

[boost]

thank you sir...

John 3:16 "That GOD so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".


now explain to me where in this it says, by not accepting jesus christ as your savior, you will not be alowed into heaven? Because I sure as hell dont see it. I believe in myself, I believe in vqc, I believe in my freinds and family, I believe in my girlfriend. However I dont accept these people as the son of god, or as my savior. I even believe in jesus christ, I believe in his existence, I believe in the morals of his teachings, I dont not accept him as the son of god, nor do I accept him as my savior.

Youve chosen to interprit this passage in a way that suits you, or you are just following a common interpritation and never stopped to think about it. Either way though, it says nowhere in the bible that by not accepting jesus christ as your savior that you will be barred from heaven. So no, you are not just saying what the bible says, you are putting a spin on it, conciously or unconciously? I dont know, but you are none the less.

[Pelion]

thanks you sir...

John 3:16 "That GOD so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".


now explain to me where in this it says, by not accepting jesus christ as your savior, you will not be alowed into heaven? Because I sure as hell dont see it. I believe in myself, I believe in vqc, I believe in my freinds and family, I believe in my girlfriend. However I dont accept these people as the son of god, or as my savior. I even believe in jesus christ, I believe in his existence, I believe in the morals of his teachings, I dont not accept him as the son of god, nor do I accept him as my savior.

Youve chosen to interprit this passage in a way that suits you, or you are just following a common interpritation and never stopped to think about it. Either way though, it says nowhere in the bible that by not accepting jesus christ as your savior that you will be barred from heaven. So no, you are not just saying what the bible says, you are putting a spin on it, conciously or unconciously? I dont know, but you are none the less.

doesnt seem to mention hell either...though thats the way i remembered it

[boost]

right... the way you remember it, as in the way you interprited it as you read it. Im not saying your interpritation is wrong, however its not the word of the bible, no matter what way you spin it.

[Rabid Dog]

thank you sir...

John 3:16 "That GOD so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".


now explain to me where in this it says, by not accepting jesus christ as your savior, you will not be alowed into heaven? Because I sure as hell dont see it. I believe in myself, I believe in vqc, I believe in my freinds and family, I believe in my girlfriend. However I dont accept these people as the son of god, or as my savior. I even believe in jesus christ, I believe in his existence, I believe in the morals of his teachings, I dont not accept him as the son of god, nor do I accept him as my savior.

Youve chosen to interprit this passage in a way that suits you, or you are just following a common interpritation and never stopped to think about it. Either way though, it says nowhere in the bible that by not accepting jesus christ as your savior that you will be barred from heaven. So no, you are not just saying what the bible says, you are putting a spin on it, conciously or unconciously? I dont know, but you are none the less.

I bolded it to help you out. Look up there ^

Here is a little more help.

No One Goes To the Father except By Me

John 14:1-14

“Do not be worried and upset,” Jesus told them. “Believe in God and believe also in me. There are many rooms in my Father’s house, and I am going to prepare a place for you. I would not tell you this if it were not so. And after I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to it myself, so that you will be where I am. You know the way that leads to the place where I am going.”



Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; so how can we know the way to get there?”



Jesus answered him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me. Now that you have know me,” he said the them, “you will know my Father also, and from now on you do know him and you have seen him.”



Philip said to him, “Lord show us the Father; that is all we need.”



Jesus answered, “For a long time I have been with you all; yet you do not know me. Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. Why, then, do you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ Do you not believe that the Father is in me? The words that I have spoken to you,” Jesus said to his disciples, “do not come from me. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. If not, believe of the things I do. I am telling you the truth: whoever believes in me will do what I do – yes, he will do even greater things, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask for in my name, so that the Father’s glory will be shown through the Son. If you ask for anything in my name, I will do it.”

[Rabid Dog]

But now we are getting totally off what the topic was all about. Do you believe in GOD or not.

Theoligy is not my thing, but I can copy and paste whatever passage you wish to try and rebuke. Just let me know which ones. I would rather not though, because its basically just a waste of my time and yours. The whole issue only goes back and forth and as someone stated above makes this an endless thread. It is the sole reason I do not wish to get into a discussion on this. It doesnt matter what I say, you will interpret however you wish. It doesnt matter what the bible says, you will interpret it how you wish also. Same goes for me. Or any other christian non christian debating this. Its just a stale mate and we have to live with that.

[Rabid Dog]

Truthfully, probably 90% or better on here dont want to see scripture quoted. And I dont blame them, because then they fill christianity is being forced down their throat. And it shouldnt be that way. Christianity is a way of life that is taken by choice of your own. And the last thing I want or would want is for someone to think I or any one else is trying to shove their beliefs off on anyone. Whether that belief is in GOD or not in GOD.

[boost]

yes, those passages are all great, but still does not list accepting jesus christ as ones savior as a prerequisite into heaven.

[vqc]

thank you sir...

John 3:16 "That GOD so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".

now explain to me where in this it says, by not accepting jesus christ as your savior, you will not be alowed into heaven? Because I sure as hell dont see it. I believe in myself, I believe in vqc, I believe in my freinds and family, I believe in my girlfriend. However I dont accept these people as the son of god, or as my savior. I even believe in jesus christ, I believe in his existence, I believe in the morals of his teachings, I dont not accept him as the son of god, nor do I accept him as my savior.

Youve chosen to interprit this passage in a way that suits you, or you are just following a common interpritation and never stopped to think about it. Either way though, it says nowhere in the bible that by not accepting jesus christ as your savior that you will be barred from heaven. So no, you are not just saying what the bible says, you are putting a spin on it, conciously or unconciously? I dont know, but you are none the less.

Bible says Something
Rabid Dog says that this is wat ti tmeans
Boost says that this is wat it means

Boost is angry becuase the bible doesnt explicitly state anything

But that doenst make a difference becase if the church interprets the work in one way, then thats wat it believes. Period. I dont see why this is so hard to see that u guys are just arguing over the interepretations of a sentence.

Even when boost is saying that the bible doesnt say anyhting on face value, for someone who probably hanst tried to study the bible to any degree wont take it at face value as someoen who has studied the bible in any way.

You guys are taking the meaning of the prhase differently becuase u guys have different degrees of understanding to the phrase. Boost, u might say that the bible doesnt say anything, but to Rabid dog, it does explicitly say something becuase he understands the prhase in a different way.

[boost]

rabid, I understand how you feel about quoting scripture, and I agree. But if anyone gets on you about it, they can come talk to me instead. I asked for it and it pertains to our discussion. You are not openly quoting random scripture or trying to force it on everyone, we know this.

[boost]

thank you sir...

John 3:16 "That GOD so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".

now explain to me where in this it says, by not accepting jesus christ as your savior, you will not be alowed into heaven? Because I sure as hell dont see it. I believe in myself, I believe in vqc, I believe in my freinds and family, I believe in my girlfriend. However I dont accept these people as the son of god, or as my savior. I even believe in jesus christ, I believe in his existence, I believe in the morals of his teachings, I dont not accept him as the son of god, nor do I accept him as my savior.

Youve chosen to interprit this passage in a way that suits you, or you are just following a common interpritation and never stopped to think about it. Either way though, it says nowhere in the bible that by not accepting jesus christ as your savior that you will be barred from heaven. So no, you are not just saying what the bible says, you are putting a spin on it, conciously or unconciously? I dont know, but you are none the less.

Bible says Something
Rabid Dog says that this is wat ti tmeans
Boost says that this is wat it means

Boost is angry becuase the bible doesnt explicitly state anything

But that doenst make a difference becase if the church interprets the work in one way, then thats wat it believes. Period. I dont see why this is so hard to see that u guys are just arguing over the interepretations of a sentence.

Even when boost is saying that the bible doesnt say anyhting on face value, for someone who probably hanst tried to study the bible to any degree wont take it at face value as someoen who has studied the bible in any way.

You guys are taking the meaning of the prhase differently becuase u guys have different degrees of understanding to the phrase. Boost, u might say that the bible doesnt say anything, but to Rabid dog, it does explicitly say something becuase he understands the prhase in a different way.

First off I was mad. And not for that reason, I was angry because of the way rabid handled my questions, I felt insulted. Second I dont believe any intepretation of the bible, I dont believe in the bible, its a book of good moral stories to me. I believe that people interpret the bible, then go around babbling about thes facts that are not only not facts, but not even true quotes of the bible.

Rabid said A is true because of B. I explained that B does not explicitly (as you would say) say A, and therefore he should not be going around saying A is a quote of the bible. I did not set out to prove that people that are good and lead moral lives will be let into heaven no matter what thier faith. I set out to prove what I proved and because the second 'prove' in this sentence is in past tense I succeeded in my goals.

[Rabid Dog]

Boost, I did not mean to insult you, that was not my intention. I in fact think you are a wise individual. Not only from post I've read of yours but also from our past pm discussion we had. I in no way ment to be insulting towards you. I probably just misunderstood what you were asking. Sometimes you just have to draw a picture for me.

That said, you are a wise individual and can look all these answers up for yourself on the internet. Maybe Romans 6:23 or Romans 10:19 will give you what you were looking for. Just type it in the search engine and bring it up. Also you can read this if you feal so inclined. Its alittle long though but shouldnt take but maybe 5 minutes to read.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/2_heaven.htm

Again, I wasnt trying to insult you and if I did please accept my appology. Again, every person or origin (if thats the word Im looking for) is going to interpret their views differently. Like I said before I have a friend who is Jewish, and he tells me that although they believe that Jesus lived and walked the earth, they do not believe him to be the son of GOD as christians do. The Jewish sector feels Jesus was elevated to that stature by christians, and not by GOD. At least thats how I understood him to put it. I in no way know the beliefs of the Jewish communtiy though for I did not go check and find out if what he said was true by their beliefs. Same can be said about any other sector of religion, I know nothing about other beliefs.

[bigred]

I AM GOD

praise me now bitches

[Warpe]

I AM GOD

praise me now bitches

Dad!

[JetA_Jockey]

I will wade into the neverending thread once more,

There is actually more proof that a man called Jesus lived...not just from the bible, but from outside sources. He has been documented by a Roman scribe....can't remember the scribes name offhand. In fact, there is more documentation about Jesus than most other people in history (excluding current history).

It was Josephus, and he was actually a Jew, who joined the romans, and the book is called Antiquities.

[JetA_Jockey]

Rabid, for your reading pleasure. http://www.truthsthattransform.org/t...pe=Apologetics

[boost]

Boost, I did not mean to insult you, that was not my intention. I in fact think you are a wise individual. Not only from post I've read of yours but also from our past pm discussion we had. I in no way ment to be insulting towards you. I probably just misunderstood what you were asking. Sometimes you just have to draw a picture for me.

That said, you are a wise individual and can look all these answers up for yourself on the internet. Maybe Romans 6:23 or Romans 10:19 will give you what you were looking for. Just type it in the search engine and bring it up. Also you can read this if you feal so inclined. Its alittle long though but shouldnt take but maybe 5 minutes to read.
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/2_heaven.htm

Again, I wasnt trying to insult you and if I did please accept my appology. Again, every person or origin (if thats the word Im looking for) is going to interpret their views differently. Like I said before I have a friend who is Jewish, and he tells me that although they believe that Jesus lived and walked the earth, they do not believe him to be the son of GOD as christians do. The Jewish sector feels Jesus was elevated to that stature by christians, and not by GOD. At least thats how I understood him to put it. I in no way know the beliefs of the Jewish communtiy though for I did not go check and find out if what he said was true by their beliefs. Same can be said about any other sector of religion, I know nothing about other beliefs.

hey its all good, I just felt a bit slighted. Like I said, I was mad. Really the anger stemmed from how I feel this arguement goes so often. Im told that because I dont believe in thier god I am not going to heaven. I then ask them about a specific group, preferably a people of god, such as muslims. Suddenly they freeze up and refuse to say "yes, they dont believe in jesus christ as thier savior, so they are not going to heaven." If this is what you beleive I think its kinda silly, but its your belief and you have a right to it. I am not angered by the belief itself, but the fact that people dont own up to it. Yes its a tough thing to accept that your beliefs damn millions of people to eternity in hell, and if not hell atleast something lesser then heaven. But if this is your belief own up to it, dont dodge the question.

I still feel that you dodge the question, maybe not intentionally. And for that reason I feel I had a right to be mad. However you did not intend to offend me and I know this, and therefore I really dont think an apology is necessary. I just hope that you can see that its really easy to make interpretations without even realising it. Also I was just trying to pose the questions "When you could interpret something in multiple ways, one of which would damn millions and millions of good people, and the otehr of which would reward all good people not matter thier beliefs; Why would you chose to follow the prior interpretation? "

Also that question that I just wrote brought something to mind. You say that it is not for you to judge, it is up to god. Now if you truly believe this, arent you doubling back on your beliefs by chosing to interpret words of the bible in a way that would indeed cast judgement on people? If you chose to look at it as those who believe in the moral lessons of jesus and live thier lifes by them, or try thier best to, will be welcomed into heaven, you are casting no judgement. However if you look at it as anyone not accepting jesus christ as the son of god and thier savior, it seems to me that you are indeed judging people. And that goes back to the thing about owning up to your beliefs. If you do believe this, then you are judging people, but then you go and say you arent.

Also I want to make clear that when I speak of hte teachings and moral lessons of jesus christ Im speaking of the more or less general lessons. Lessons that transcend the boundaries of different religions. So yes jesus taught them, but they are not his teachings, or atleast not his alone. Im sure all these things have been taught before him. (and I dont see how you can deny this... because then what of all the souls prior to jesus? What became of these? Did they have to sit in the lobby of heaven reading magazines, waiting for jesus to live?)

[bigred]

I AM GOD

praise me now bitches

Dad!

JESUS CHRIST!!!1 GET THE ESCALADE!!!!!

[euphoricism]

The word used in word in the the old hebreew texts which was translated into "hell" (which I believe was Shaol, but I could be slightly off.. its been a while..) is thought to be misinterpreted and should actually be something closer to "grave" or "pit".

[Renton]

I love how atheists made up the overwhelming majority of the votes in the beginning, and now the people who believe in god have over taken the majority by one point.

The three token christian members probably got all their friends to open FTR accounts so they could swing the voting.

Heh heh. J/K I don't want to start another jihad.

[pgil]

I really enjoy all of this 'who's going to heaven' talk, because, the funny thing about that is, it's sure as hell not the christians (outside of those select "chosen" few). the reason. if you were to read the book of revelation, it clearly states that 144000 people, 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of israel will be chosen, and will have the lords name inscribed on their heads. and all those who do not have the sign of the lord on their heads will be beset with 7 plagues. they will enter into heaven. so most of you christians, not going. it also said that they were virgins, so good luck to all of you who went out to try and 'be fruitful and multiply', suckers.

now, if you want to talk about more interesting things, such as the ever changing nature of this judeo-christian god. for instance, god is now love and peace and all that bull. whereas, the jewish god was a god of wrath and vengeance. not to mention pride and envy. thou shalt have no other god before me, for i am a vengeful god. or something like that. notice it doesnt claim that there are no other gods, just that you cant worship them. the 'one true god' stuff was added later.

whats really interesting about the whole 'jesus' thing is that according to the stories in the bible, he knew all about the messianic prophecies (he was a precocious youngster after all) and made certain that he followed them. that sounds a little dodgy dont you think. there was one passage, i dont recall exactly where, but it had something to do with jesus getting a mule to ride into town on. the reason he got this mule was because the prophecies required the mesiah to enter town riding a mule. i am not reading into things here, the passage clearly states that he got the mule for the specific reason of fulfilling the conditions of the prophecy. sounds a little like a false messiah to me.

[dj newman]

Thank you Jeta...been a while since I read about Josephus.

The old saying used to go...Talk about anything except sex, politics and religion....I don't think the first one applies anymore, and the second does a little, but the third is still a major hurdle in discussion...since it reaches down to our very core.

[boost]

I love how atheists made up the overwhelming majority of the votes in the beginning, and now the people who believe in god have over taken the majority by one point.

The three token christian members probably got all their friends to open FTR accounts so they could swing the voting.

Heh heh. J/K I don't want to start another jihad.

WRONG! These decenters dont want thier fellow jesus freaks to know they gamb00l ..

[JetA_Jockey]

I really enjoy all of this 'who's going to heaven' talk, because, the funny thing about that is, it's sure as hell not the christians (outside of those select "chosen" few). the reason. if you were to read the book of revelation, it clearly states that 144000 people, 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of israel will be chosen, and will have the lords name inscribed on their heads. and all those who do not have the sign of the lord on their heads will be beset with 7 plagues. they will enter into heaven. so most of you christians, not going. it also said that they were virgins, so good luck to all of you who went out to try and 'be fruitful and multiply', suckers.

way to take the jehovahs witness approach there, are we handing out pamphlets also ?

now, if you want to talk about more interesting things, such as the ever changing nature of this judeo-christian god. for instance, god is now love and peace and all that bull. whereas, the jewish god was a god of wrath and vengeance. not to mention pride and envy. thou shalt have no other god before me, for i am a vengeful god. or something like that. notice it doesnt claim that there are no other gods, just that you cant worship them. the 'one true god' stuff was added later.

God doesn't change, never has and never will. It does state that their is only one true God (Deut. 6:4,Is. 43:10,Is. 43:10). He does speak of other "gods" but they are all creations of man (i.e. idols,). The book of Jeremiah is a great resource on that.

whats really interesting about the whole 'jesus' thing is that according to the stories in the bible, he knew all about the messianic prophecies (he was a precocious youngster after all) and made certain that he followed them. that sounds a little dodgy dont you think. there was one passage, i dont recall exactly where, but it had something to do with jesus getting a mule to ride into town on. the reason he got this mule was because the prophecies required the mesiah to enter town riding a mule. i am not reading into things here, the passage clearly states that he got the mule for the specific reason of fulfilling the conditions of the prophecy. sounds a little like a false messiah to me.

If this were true, then He did a heck of a job making his mother give birth to him, as a virgin(Isaiah 7:14 ), in the exact town quoted in Micah 5:2 , oh yeah and also part of the Davidic bloodline (Jeremiah 23:5-6, Isaiah 11:10 ). Riding into town was predicted by Daniel, not only accurately but he pinpointed the exact day it was to be done.(Daniel 9:25 / also Zech9:9)

ok im done :]