Theist or Atheist?

[boost]

journey will you have my babies?

[Fleece]

journey will you have my babies?

aslong as you dont impregnate your jewish girlfriend. The last thing we need is more jews. Especially black ones

[Rockymv]

lol anyone who thinks they know anything for certain hasn't read enough philosophy.

I believe in god via existential choice. And I think the peculiarity of human consciousness and experience supports that choice, though it could never prove it.

Also, I'm pretty sure the idea of the incompatibility of God and evolution became outdated sometime in the late 70's.

[Gareth]

journey075 - never knew the debate was on a simple level of what temp. does water boil at?

Simple minds see more complicated thinking as retarded

[Gareth]

greedo wrote

I actually turn this around on you. Is this not the perfect reason NOT to believe there is a god, but that we just have yet to understand everything about our world, and maybe we never will?

Perfect - No - but what you say could very well be true

your last point - "and maybe we never will" - shows why science, where its proof or nothing, can not be the correct way to think in every situation.

[euphoricism]

the idea of the incompatibility of God and evolution became outdated sometime in the late 70's.

Hrm, sort of. It depends how you define "God" of course. In the judeo/xtian sense of the word, the two are at odds. But as Pascal showed us, "Which God?" is a very valid question. Anyway, it does piggy back on the Epicurean Paradox the two concepts are very much at odds.

Given: God is omnipotent, omniscient, and the least bit benevolent.
Given: Evolution works through extermination - whether it be by predation or starvation.

If God created the process of evolution, then he must know where it is heading. Therefore he knows that if he creates "seed" A, it will lead to species A, B, and C. He also knows species A has no chance of survival, and will all be exterminated either by predation (which hurts) or starvation (which really, really hurts).

The concept of a god that created a species (through evolution) knowing full well that it will die in a very painful way is very anti-God-concept, again in the judeo/xtian sense. If you simply view God as a creator (in which case it would properly be god, lowercase g) then you can manipulate it into however you'd like -- which is convenient.

[pgil]

journey075 - never knew the debate was on a simple level of what temp. does water boil at?

Simple minds see more complicated thinking as retarded

the thing about that is, there is no set temperature for the boiling point of water. the reason being, boiling is a product of both temperature and air pressure. this means that at sea level water may boil at temp. A, but at the top of mount everest, the boiling point of water will be significantly lower.

clearly teaching creationism in schools is wrong, as it is not a theory, because a theory MUST be falsifiable. since creationism is NOT falsifiable, it is not a theory. therefore, teaching it as a theoretical alternative to evolution is wrong on two counts. those counts being separation of church and state, and that it's not a theory.

as you may have guessed, I fall on the atheist side of things. and to all of those atheists who say that they havent closed the door on the existence of god, then I have some news for you, you're not an atheist, you are an agnostic. there is a difference.

being an atheist means that I don't believe in any creator, any god(s), any beings, spirits, or thingy's from another dimension (in this I include anything from the 11 dimensions of string 'theory'. I mean, comeon, 11 dimensions. what the fuck is that about. It seems like someone has let their algebra take them to places that scientific theories shouldn't go. I think that if your equations lead you to posit 11 dimensions then you should take a long hard look at both your methods and your grounding assumptions. ie. which axioms you started with, etc.)

now, I can't prove the nonexistence of all gods, but I can of the new and improved judea-christian god. it goes something like this.

God is perfect.
perfection can only be defined as the absence of flaws. any other definition becomes circular.
a thing is either something, or it is nothing.
a thing is either perfect or imperfect.
if something is perfect then adding anything to it, or removing anything from it will make it imperfect.
nothingness is the absence of everything.
therefore, nothingness is the absence of flaws.
therefore, nothingness is perfection.
since god is perfect, nothingness is god.
and since a thing is either nothing or sonmething, god is nothing
conclusion,
a perfect god is by definition a nonexistent god.

TADA

[Gareth]

the thing about that is, there is no set temperature for the boiling point of water. the reason being, boiling is a product of both temperature and air pressure. this means that at sea level water may boil at temp. A, but at the top of mount everest, the boiling point of water will be significantly lower.

your correct, I remember learning this a long time ago at school - just didn't bother explaining this to that particular person.

[Greedo017]

therefore, nothingness is perfection.
since god is perfect, nothingness is god.

coughcough affirming the consequent coughcough

[dj newman]

Their are billions of religions on the earth...since everyone has their own version on a set of ideals. A person can say they are christian, buddhist, islamic, etc but they all have their own version of the ideals they are taught...the same goes for atheists. Two people who believe in the religion of science can have very different beliefs reguarding what is fact and what is possible. Our differences is what makes mankind continue to explore and constantly change. The only question that really matters is, does religion hold you back...or push you to greater heights....if the answer is the first - find some new ideals....if it is the latter, you are on the right track and your personal religion is constantly changing anyhow. I have met many atheists who are extremely closed people (if they can't put it in a test tube and measure it....it does not exist)...this is a very closed way of looking at life....for can you put love in a test tube....and does anybody deny that it exists.

Note: attrocities have occured in the name of religion...no matter what variation...christian, islam and atheist (Cambodia, China and Russia).

I don't see the use in debating what is effectively an ultimate question.

No one can know or prove as to whether there is or isn't a God, people can only have belief in a God or not, and mere belief cannot be disputed or argued against.

[Miffed22001]

I don't see the use in debating what is effectively an ultimate question.

No one can know or prove as to whether there is or isn't a God, people can only have belief in a God or not, and mere belief cannot be disputed or argued against.

religion is the root of all that is evil in this world we live in
discuss.

On another note, the question of God is answerable according to the bible wihich historically cannot be proven to be true. Dont ask but the historical data is out there. The only reason that the christian and perhaps muslim religions have not been renounced is because of the significant power they still hold. One third of the world is catholic, even America cant bomb that many people.
Sry j/k

Ill post my views too. Both sides of my family have heavily religious people in them. Both my parents were brought up in religious households. My rejection is simple on three issues.
Firstly, i have never seen or heard of anything that cannot be explained through natural phenomena. Nothing and i will repeat NOTHING cannot be explained through the laws and rules science and other subjects that have been opened up to us. Therefore i find it impossible to comprehend that any 'superior being' is out there.
Secondly, has it never occured to anybody that in times of need we are all in need in hearing hard truths or needing our fears/hopes affirmed through some imaginary being? For many people life itself is simply more than they are either wiling or are able to comprehend. therefore a guiding and uniting force, religion alays these fears. Life and the everyday is given meaning or a reason for existance, based upon a fallacy of religious experience. The base concern of religion is to give meaning to things so that those who cannot comprehend can at least feel they have reason. For those of us who either dont like, trust or simply know about these issues the questions over the usefulness of such conceptions becomes key. We try to demolish the plan for life religion gives rather than comprehending what it does for those people who need guidance in their lives. And it is not just the dumb or weak that need guidance. Members from all walks of society are religious, showing that you may be rich or highly statused but the need to find reason still exists, perhaps more so.
Thirdly i beleive inexoribly in the power of the individual to shape destiny. Many people are lucky to be (sorry for the bad pun) dealt good cards in life. For others, it is not so easy. I have always said that to be positive will always result in correct decisions being made. So if someone has nothing and forever is negative about that fact and thinks they will get nothing, they thus get nothing. For those who try all their lives, to achieve the impossible they live and die with the thought that they tried. It may have been in vain or not be a materialistic success, but striving to do what is right will always result in at least some satisfaction that you tried.
And is it not noticeable that over recent years and throughout history religious differences have torn people apart.
The fundamental issue of religion is that it makes you part of something. But at the smae time it MAKES YOU DIFFERENT FROM OTHER PEOPLE.
Therefore, religion is the most fundamental reason that people differentiate themselves from others because not only do we differentiate between muslim or jew we differnetiate through colour, gender, sex and other issues all born from those values that religion has instilled in people for thousands of years.
Until religion dies, the idea of any utopia for human beings will remain what it still is: a myth
Kthxgg

[dj newman]

My question is....what is natural phenomena, by your definition. You have never seen something that could not be explained scientifically?

I will once again state that non-"religous" groups have served as the biggest killers in recent history (last 100 years).....add the numbers up from China, Russia and Cambodia....and they are way larger than all of the religous conflicts combined in that time span. Organized religion is like most things in life....neither good nor bad...unless you use it to justify a flaw....or use as a crutch. The root of most religions is love....the problem occurs when leaders of the religion hijack the religion and use it to control the masses for their own devices.

[Gareth]

Miffed22001 wrote:

religion is the root of all that is evil in this world we live in

I believe that money is the root of all (more so than any other cause) evil in this world.

[saxdaddy]

I believe you should not anger the poker gods.

Consider this: A big huge exposion in space a long time ago, little particles of the blast go out in all directions. After a while the particles clump together and some collapse and burn as stars, others float around as clouds. The stars eventually burn out or explode after forming heavier particles. Then after a while some of these particles cloaesce and form stars with planets. Some of the particles on the planets grow and become aware that they are from the explosion! What are the odds of that?

[euphoricism]

Sax: Essentially gaurenteed. Given infinite time, every possible combination of possibilities will happen, and eventually one of them did.

So lets say for A and B to make C, you also need D and E to make F, so that F and G can make A. Got all that?

Well, D and E failed in try one. And try two. And try 9992123231948327. But they got it right on the next one, but when it tried with G to make A, it failed again, so the process started over. Another 982309480223243 tries, and D and E work, AND SO DOES F AND A! Holy shit! We're almost There!

But alas, the combination of A and B failed to make C, so we didn't get it. Couple billion, billion, billion more tries, and it finally works.

Infinite time, all combinations played out -- the result is gaurenteed.


The whole "an infinite number of monkeys pounding on an infinite number of keyboards in an infinite amount of time will produce the entire literary works of shakespeare" mind-twister. Yup, they will. Eventually.

[a500lbgorilla]

You smell funny.

[azureXsmurF]

Atheist... The margins of science in which religion lives grows smaller with every new discovery. I believe in finding your own spirituality to keep yourself happy, but that doesn't mean you have to believe in any sort of diety or supreme power.

Science - Is similar in that if you don't agree with the consensus or "Respected" peoples views in a certain field then you will be outcasted by the "Respected" scientific world.

This is just wrong. If you disagree with with the majority of the scientific community, give them a testable protocol that follows the scientific method that will allow them to reproduce your results. THAT'S what most people who get "outcasted" don't do.

To be a scientist you have to be open-minded. To be doing a study with the goal of proving a certain point is not going to be scientific without having a partner that has the opposing viewpoint.

Being respected already or not, you have to present sufficient evidence supporting a theory, and also a scientific process to reproduce your results for other scientists to be accepting of a new theory. This is why pseudoscientific theories like Intelligent Design are always shot down... there are no testable hypotheses.

[boost]

yah .. my freind on AIM once told me that Im not all that bad ass cuz Im only half black. I then explained to him that black people are infinately badass, and therefore being half the bad ass they are I am infinately badass myself, a fraction of infinity is infinite itself.

[Greedo017]

This is why religious beliefs like Intelligent Design are always shot down... there are no testable hypotheses.

fyp

[eeeee]

The margins of science in which religion lives grows smaller with every new discovery.

Disagree.

Numbers of theist comologists are increasing -- I hear that multidimentional and string theory fits God rather well, especially those aspects of multiple persons simultaneously being One, eternity, omniprescence, etc.

DNA tracing is showing some species data that don't fit "tree-branch" evolution, but fit "catastroph" evolution rather nicely. (Don't worry, the atheist won't even want to know.)

I'd kind of like to hear of a discovery that reduced God's territory. The threatening discoveries have been threats to ideologs on both sides of the god debate, but not threatening to God. Close mindedness doesn't like new information. A 3 billion year old Earth doesn't bother God at all, I'm sure, but you should see both preacher and evolutionist squirm (apparently, 3 billion ain't that long a time for all the left-handed amino acids to combine into life, come up with cells, cell divisions, sexual reproduction, hair, and philosophy, while all the right-handed amino acid life didn't seem to make it. )

[azureXsmurF]

The number of theist cosmologists is increasing because of the fundamentalists' increasing desire to disprove theories and new discoveries that they find threatening to their beliefs. Many of these so called cosmologists and geologists are simply out to make a buck.

Just by reading a few articles that hit on Google when I search for articles on "catastrophic evolution" I can see it's designed exactly the same way as ID - to find "evidence" directly attacking the opposing theory, and use very little actual experimentation and observation to support it that can't be refuted by people who are experts in that field of study.


Meh wanted to write more but my girlfriend is out of class and I have plans... I'll finish later~_~

[Greedo017]

"DNA tracing is showing some species data that don't fit "tree-branch" evolution, but fit "catastroph" evolution rather nicely."

Like what? and what is catastrophe evolution?

"I'd kind of like to hear of a discovery that reduced God's territory. The threatening discoveries have been threats to ideologs on both sides of the god debate, but not threatening to God. Close mindedness doesn't like new information. A 3 billion year old Earth doesn't bother God at all, I'm sure, but you should see both preacher and evolutionist squirm (apparently, 3 billion ain't that long a time for all the left-handed amino acids to combine into life, come up with cells, cell divisions, sexual reproduction, hair, and philosophy, while all the right-handed amino acid life didn't seem to make it. )"

huh?


You can for sure both believe in god, and believe in evolution and science. However, religion and science conflict, and religion is being crowded out more and more by science every day. god is not though.

[dj newman]

The problem with the religion of science is that everything has to be quantifiable....if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. There are so many things that fall outside this realm. Science is necessary, but does not and will not ever be able to explain everything...it can not measure or explain the very thing that makes us human...the best and most important things in life.

[Warpe]

"Catastophic" evolution is a theory that is not unsupported by science. Stephen Jay Gould called it "punctuated equilibrium". Instead of a slow and steady progression to more complex life forms, there are periods where species seem to suddenly explode on the scene (and others die out). Regardless, there is no incronguity in believing in a "God" while still accepting the overwhelming scientific evidence that evolution is fact, not mere theory. For some, evolution is the means by which "God" creates life.
It's not very efficient but, hey, when you've nothing but infinite time on your hands...

Me, I've seen no evidence that convinces me that God exists, but if he does he's got a really weird sense of humor. I mean, the platypus....come ONNN!

[eeeee]

Catastroph is likely the wrong word. But I'm referring to the puzzle where morphology used to be a great support to slow evolution as an explaination for similar species spread out on different islands or lakes (the usual place to study evolutionary evidences.)

You can find red, yellow, brown cichlid fish in different lakes in Africa. The typical explaination is, red fish were wide spread, but then the water receded, blah, blah, and the same thing for the yellow, etc. But DNA analysis show the species to be more closely related to their morphologically different neighbors from the same lake or island, implying that some fish, whatever color, were isolated in different lakes, and then 'evolved' into red, yellow, and brown species, filling different niches, with the same pattern of speciation occuring the next lake over (as if that were a really great idea or something.) And it's not just fish -- parallel evolution, convergent evolution, "catastophe" evolution is a little hard to explain.

I don't give a hot, steamy squat about yellow fish. I don't really care much about evolution. But geographical isolation occured, then speciation occured in a repetitive manner. Is it a proof for God? Nope. But the old theories of evolution don't fit well. Yet more room for religion in science, not less, that was my point. Saying "there's less and less room..." yada yada is retoric and defenseless. Sorry. Too much soapbox, not enough open mind.

[eeeee]

huh?

All the DNA in your body, and every creature on Earth, is made up of Left Handed Amino Acids. When you buy protein products at the healthfood store, it may say L-Taurine, or somesuch. If it doesn't say "L", your body can only use half of that amino acid (assuming it was created artificially.)
When amino acids are produced mechanically (and presumably amino acids found in a amino acid soup struck by lightning), an equal amount of Right Handed and Left Handed amino acid is produced.
Why are there no R-protien creatures? It implies the creation of life was during a very exact and brief combination of near-magical coincidences and conditions in a single location. Or all the R-protien creatures died. All of them. Dead.

BTW, the health food advice is free.

[Warpe]

Completely agree (w/eeeee). I was at a Deepak Chopra lecture recently where he actually makes a point of reconciling quantum physics, string theory and his brand of religion. Very mind-expanding, and completely tenable.

[boost]

huh?

All the DNA in your body, and every creature on Earth, is made up of Left Handed Amino Acids. When you buy protein products at the healthfood store, it may say L-Taurine, or somesuch. If it doesn't say "L", your body can only use half of that amino acid (assuming it was created artificially.)
When amino acids are produced mechanically (and presumably amino acids found in a amino acid soup struck by lightning), an equal amount of Right Handed and Left Handed amino acid is produced.
Why are there no R-protien creatures? It implies the creation of life was during a very exact and brief combination of near-magical coincidences and conditions in a single location. Or all the R-protien creatures died. All of them. Dead.

BTW, the health food advice is free.

what in gods name (hehe) are you fucking talking about? We are carbon based life forms, and that goes for every living thing we know of. Does that mean that all the 'hydrogen based lifeforms' died? Or ::lightbulb:: THERE NEVER WHERE ANY!!!!! Maybe there is more to this 'theory' then you are explaining, but it seems to be packed with holes. I dont see how our DNA only having one type of amino acid proves that we where all made at the same time.

[Greedo017]

"You have never seen something that could not be explained scientifically?"

Have you?

[Warpe]

You can buy toasters licensed by Disney that'll imprint Mickey Mouse on your Eggo waffles. Rumor has it that the Vatican is looking into their own version...but I'll bet that it won't do bagels.

[azureXsmurF]

"You have never seen something that could not be explained scientifically?"

Have you?

sarcasm?

[Greedo017]

eeee, you are describing a false dilemma. convergent evolution is a perfectly reasonable, easy to understand, and intuitively obvious explanation for what you describe. Convergent evolution was not invented after DNA was used to help determine species, it is long established. All convergent evolution says is that if you different species different locations, but with a similar environment and similar demands placed on them, then they will tend to evolve to be similar. How does god making anything fit in at all here, and why does this "old" theory of evolution no longer fit? It fits perfectly with evolution! If god was responsible for giving all creatures everything they needed, why do snakes and whales have pelvic bones? human appendix? etc.?

"But the old theories of evolution don't fit well. Yet more room for religion in science, not less, that was my point. Saying "there's less and less room..." yada yada is retoric and defenseless. Sorry. Too much soapbox, not enough open mind."

This is rhetoric and defenseless, based on a complete lack of understanding of what convergent evolution is, how it came about, and a lack of understanding of how dna has been used to identify species. I am presenting clear and obvious arguments that are based on facts, while yours are based on misinformation and superfluous study, and I have a closed mind?

"Why are there no R-protien creatures? It implies the creation of life was during a very exact and brief combination of near-magical coincidences and conditions in a single location. Or all the R-protien creatures died. All of them. Dead."

boost killed this one. and on top of that, why does "well, i don't think it could've happened, boogie-man in the sky musta done it!" make any sense?


And, oh well, the toast is still funny.

[vqc]

yah .. my freind on AIM once told me that Im not all that bad ass cuz Im only half black. I then explained to him that black people are infinately badass, and therefore being half the bad ass they are I am infinately badass myself, a fraction of infinity is infinite itself.

no this is one of those situations where the only way to have the phenotype is to be homozygous for it.
See this is wat happened
Mom's genotype cc
Dad's genotype CC

ur genotype Cc

Phenotypes
CC = Infinitely cool
Cc = Not Cool
cc = Not cool

Sorry ur theory fails =(

By the by
I find it amusing u have so much faith in string theory.

[boost]

yah .. my freind on AIM once told me that Im not all that bad ass cuz Im only half black. I then explained to him that black people are infinately badass, and therefore being half the bad ass they are I am infinately badass myself, a fraction of infinity is infinite itself.

no this is one of those situations where the only way to have the phenotype is to be homozygous for it.
See this is wat happened
Mom's genotype cc
Dad's genotype CC

ur genotype Cc

Phenotypes
CC = Infinitely cool
Cc = Not Cool
cc = Not cool

Sorry ur theory fails =(

By the by
I find it amusing u have so much faith in string theory.

coolness is not genetical. Its hereditary.

And who says I ahve so much faith in it? And I believe it was you yourself that defined faith as something unexplainable. How is it that you can have faith in a scientific theory? I find the string theory (or whatever its being called now) very interesting, and whats even more interesting is the process in which it was formed. And the fact that this process has not finished. So even if I could have faith in this theory, it wouldnt make sense, because its ever evolving. So yes, I am captivated by it, but I think you took my captivation the wrong way.

[vqc]

yah .. my freind on AIM once told me that Im not all that bad ass cuz Im only half black. I then explained to him that black people are infinately badass, and therefore being half the bad ass they are I am infinately badass myself, a fraction of infinity is infinite itself.

no this is one of those situations where the only way to have the phenotype is to be homozygous for it.
See this is wat happened
Mom's genotype cc
Dad's genotype CC

ur genotype Cc

Phenotypes
CC = Infinitely cool
Cc = Not Cool
cc = Not cool

Sorry ur theory fails =(

By the by
I find it amusing u have so much faith in string theory.

coolness is not genetical. Its hereditary.

And who says I ahve so much faith in it? And I believe it was you yourself that defined faith as something unexplainable. How is it that you can have faith in a scientific theory? I find the string theory (or whatever its being called now) very interesting, and whats even more interesting is the process in which it was formed. And the fact that this process has not finished. So even if I could have faith in this theory, it wouldnt make sense, because its ever evolving. So yes, I am captivated by it, but I think you took my captivation the wrong way.

it just seemed to me that u were saying something along the lines of
"God is false, look at string theories way of explaining the beginnings of the universe instead."
Becuase I interpreted it this way I thought it was amusing that u were using something that is completely unproven to try and debunk something else that is completely unproven.

[boost]

no no... just when you get into a discussion about evolution and beyond with a christian you eventually come to the big bang. Then they often say something along hte lines of "well if all that is true, then what came before the big bang, something had to start it!"

Well the string theory goes into what happened before it. Im not saying this is 100%, but they say this line as if its like proof that theres soemthing else. However soon after history began, we have been figuring out what happened in prehistory. And we have gotten farther and farther. Just as we havent reached the end in our evolution, we havent reached the end in our search for what happened in the past. This combined with the concept of the possibility that time is not as we perceive it, the idea of there being a reason for a god is invalid. Thats what I was trying to get at, people often dont understand something and jump to the conclusion that it was an act of god, however Im just showing that I could just as easily explain it in a more logical fact based process that doesnt involve god.

[Fleece]

yah .. my freind on AIM once told me that Im not all that bad ass cuz Im only half black. I then explained to him that black people are infinately badass, and therefore being half the bad ass they are I am infinately badass myself, a fraction of infinity is infinite itself.

infinite is not a number u dumbass, its a limit

god whats with all the uneducated blacks AMIRITE???...... whos got some rope?

[LeFou]

Closed Minds will never find the answer - to me this includes religion and science.

This reminds me of a bit in John Courtney Murray: in a nutshell, theism and atheism are decisions, not conclusions. Most people make a preliminary decision, then select the evidencce that supports it, and pretend they were led by the evidence.

Religion - To follow it properly you have to believe without question what you are being told is correct.

That hasn't been my experience (Catholic)

Religion says ah yes this is God, he is this and he does that - All moulded from a human perspective.

That hasn't been my experience (liberal Catholic)

Religion/Faith = Science/Proof

pretty reductive, that.

[Toe]

Ive decided to become religious

which god would you recommend?

[Lukie]

Ive decided to become religious

which god would you recommend?

I would pick one of the thousands that have a lot of proof to their existance.

[Renton]

Three commandments:

1) Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy Nookie.

2) Thou shalt try Real Hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you do.

3) Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself.

[BIGandRICH]

I dont believe in any form of religion because too much of my life has seen religion in a bad light. There are many individuals within religions that are great people, but religions as a whole group always have a section of them that give the religion a bad name, and flare hatred between each other.

The thing that I dont like mostly is the total lack of acceptance for other religions. The belief that your own religion is right and that all others are wrong, coupled with the need to prove that you're right is way out of line. I read a few days ago an article on religion about the difference between christianity and another religion that i dont remember. The general gist was like this (note, i nearly threw up when reading this)...

"In their religion they kill as a sacrifice to the gods, where as in ours jesus was sacrificed for us. Therefore ours is correct"

Call me stupid if you wish, but i dont understand the reasoning here.

(from a tv news story, so perhaps isnt entirely accurate)a muslim man was confronted with the issue of his son wishing to marry a woman from outside the muslim faith. His descision was that should his son go through with the wedding he would cut off all connections to him and never speak to him again, or allow anyone in the family to speak to or see him again. He may even consider killing his own son.

In both sides (forgive my simplification, i am aware that there are more religions than christianity and islam) there are people who are totally un accepting of the "outsiders" to the point that they will iniciate violence.

I think far too many religious people are very closed minded, as an atheist I am still accepting of other peoples beliefs and dont mind them having them. I am also willing to consider becoming a religious person should i be presented with a good enough arguement for being a believer. Too many religious people wouldnt even consider changing religion or becoming an unbeliever. Though from writing this i'm starting to feel as though its much more of an individual person thing than a religion thing. As i'm sure there many fantasic people in all the various religions, just as there are surely extremists aswell.

in answer to the original question, as some of you may have picked up, no, i dont believe in god.

[midas06]

"You have never seen something that could not be explained scientifically?"

Have you?

.......wtf is that?

[DaNutsInYoEye]

"You have never seen something that could not be explained scientifically?"

Have you?

.......wtf is that?

Uhh... Isn't it obvious? It's Mary on the side of a piece of grilled cheese.

[a500lbgorilla]

Can I have a bite?

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Closed Minds will never find the answer - to me this includes religion and science.

Religion - To follow it properly you have to believe without question what you are being told is correct.

Science - Is similar in that if you don't agree with the consensus or "Respected" peoples views in a certain field then you will be outcasted by the "Respected" scientific world.

I am not religious but I do feel there is some form of Creator (or creators) -

Religion says ah yes this is God, he is this and he does that - All moulded from a human perspective.

Religion/Faith = Science/Proof

thats retarded. theories in science have been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. religion is speculation and nobody can disagree with that.

if you dont believe the boiling point of water is 100C then yeah, you deserve to be outcasted because youre a fucking moron.

im not entirely atheist but this post is seriously so dumb it hurts.

By definition, scientific theories are never proven true. They can be proven false though. Water boiling at 100C is not a theory. Kinetic Thoery, which helps explain why water boils at 100C, is.

This post is so seriously dumb it hurts...

I've seen the word "theory" thrown around so much and it's been used incorrectly in the scientific sense numerous times. You seriously take away the credibility of a scientific argument when you apply it incorrectly.

If you're going to play the role of a genius, make sure you can at least sound like one.

[Miffed22001]

wtf
where is mary?
I just see tea

Religion sucks
period

[sykotik489]

I see a woman, don't know how you narrow it down to one specific woman that no one has a picture of.

[Greedo017]

I see a woman, don't know how you narrow it down to one specific woman that no one has a picture of.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6511148/

[boost]

"You have never seen something that could not be explained scientifically?"

Have you?

.......wtf is that?

Uhh... Isn't it obvious? It's Mary on the side of a piece of grilled cheese.

hah..

Theres a clear explanation for so called sightings of the virgin mary. Our brains try to see something that we recognize. Our brains work to make sense of things, and sometimes over complicate simple things. For example there is some sort of geological formation on mars, from space it resembles a human face. Our brains go into over drive, "OH MY GOD, THERE IS OR WAS INTELLIGENT LIFE ON MARS, AND THEY ARE SIMILAR TO HUMANS! THIS MONUMENT IS PROOF!!" ... Or its just some rock that resembles a human face.

There have probably been millions and millions of grilled cheeses made, each one is going to have a unique look to it, one sort of resembles a cloaked person, Im sure some of resembled a dogs penis, but you dont see people worshiping that, do you? This reminds me of the episode of hte simpsons where they join a cult, and homer is collecting lima beans that resemble The Leader.

[potdragn]

I see someone posted a pic of the flying spaghetti monster, the one and only true god. If anyone has seen the main page of Spaghetti Monsterism, it is clearly explained how pirates, global warming and the Spaghetti Monster are all interlocking paths.

[a500lbgorilla]

Why do people have so little faith in me?

[azureXsmurF]

I see someone posted a pic of the flying spaghetti monster, the one and only true god. If anyone has seen the main page of Spaghetti Monsterism, it is clearly explained how pirates, global warming and the Spaghetti Monster are all interlocking paths.

I have one of the shirts off his old cafepress shop~_~

[boost]

I see someone posted a pic of the flying spaghetti monster, the one and only true god. If anyone has seen the main page of Spaghetti Monsterism, it is clearly explained how pirates, global warming and the Spaghetti Monster are all interlocking paths.

I have one of the shirts off his old cafepress shop~_~

no shit!? ^_^!

[Warpe]

Why do people have so little faith in me?

Working a miracle or two might help your cause.

[potdragn]

Does the miracle of him not letting this forum degrade into open warfare count? :P

[Phantaroth]

More imporantly.

Do you believe in Ghosts?!

[JetA_Jockey]

I'm with ya Les, there will always be atheists ridiculing our faith, and I'm sorry that they feel that way.
Its hard for me to believe that the very short time period in which we call life, is the beginning and the end for me.
I've read The Bible in its entirety but I still dont think that the creation days were meant to be taken literally, or another angle is that it was written that way because it was being soaked into 2500+ year old minds at the time. Ever since I got back into religion, steered away from the Catholic church, and decided to study the faith on my own, the pieces have come together for me. Either way, no one has to prove to me that God exists, the occurrences and strange acts of randomness in my life have been enough of a testimony to myself.
dave

[Rabid Dog]

I know one thing. I believe in GOD and have faith he exist. We will all find out when we die. If I'm wrong, then I lived a life that was good and one that I treated people right and kind. If I'm right (which I believe I am) then when I die I will be walking streets of gold and be wealthy beyond comprehension.

If the athiest is right then when he dies hopefully he will have lived a good life where he treated people the way he would like to be treated. If the athiest is wrong (which I believe he is) then he will be burning in hell.

To me, walking streets of gold sounds alot more +EV than burning in hell for eternity.

Two things I dont dont do, thats argue politics and argue religion with anyone, theres never a winner, and most times ends in some sort of argument or frustration. Or in the case of countries, War. I know what I believe and thats my choice. If you choose to be athiest, thats your choice. I've got friends who are athiest and we co-exist peacefully.

[potdragn]

Here is the question that I pose to you:

If, at the end of my life, living a good life in which i was kind to others and tried not to lie, cheat or steal, but not believing in the existence of the god of the Bible or Torah or Koran any more than believing in the Babylonian or Norse gods, but respecting and perhaps even worshipping nature, I died, and was confronted by the one God, dont you think that God would be merciful? As a Christian, dont you have to? Isnt that what Jesus died for?

The God of the Bible (or Torah or Koran) does not exist. These are 2000+ year old documents written by man, not by God, handed down from oral tradition. Not only that, they have been translated and changed multiple times. How can that God exist?

There may be a more powerful being, a universal current that flows through all of us and nature, but I dont think its all-powerful, although it may be omniscient and ever present. Wiccans and druids worship nature, but the church would burn them as witches and pagans: which do you think is closer to God's path?

[Pelion]

To me, walking streets of gold sounds alot more +EV than burning in hell for eternity.

So your belief comes from which is +EV? Sounds alot like greed to me. Those streets of gold have a long firey drop beneath them. Tread carefully.

[JetA_Jockey]

Here is the question that I pose to you:

If, at the end of my life, living a good life in which i was kind to others and tried not to lie, cheat or steal, but not believing in the existence of the god of the Bible or Torah or Koran any more than believing in the Babylonian or Norse gods, but respecting and perhaps even worshipping nature, I died, and was confronted by the one God, dont you think that God would be merciful? As a Christian, dont you have to? Isnt that what Jesus died for?

The God of the Bible (or Torah or Koran) does not exist. These are 2000+ year old documents written by man, not by God, handed down from oral tradition. Not only that, they have been translated and changed multiple times. How can that God exist?

There may be a more powerful being, a universal current that flows through all of us and nature, but I dont think its all-powerful, although it may be omniscient and ever present. Wiccans and druids worship nature, but the church would burn them as witches and pagans: which do you think is closer to God's path?

God is merciful. Jesus died for our sins, giving His sin-free life for our atonement, if we accept it.
About the Bible, I don't know which version you've read but the NIV translates directly from the Hebrew and Greek languages in which it was written. We can start a dead sea scrolls debate but I'm in a losing battle in that since I am not referenced very well in that subject.

I know God works in my life because I let Him, and I take notice to the things that He does, because I know in my past without him I was lost. We have free will to do as we please, but I personally like to know that I am involved with something that is blessed by Him.

I'm not really into organized religions (churches of today) , the most i ever do is spend time in Bible discussion with small groups of friends. Religion is such a big business now that turns many away.
Situational ethics due to a God-Free society has led to the legalization of abortion, which has led to infanticide /partial birth abortions, and eventually cases like Terri Schiavo's. Where does it stop?

If anyone is remotely curious of God's Word, get an NIV bible, wal-mart has em for 20 bucks. It's written in plain day english, very easy to understand, and you'll see how "coincidental" it is in a 2000+ year old book with its relation to modern day society.

sorry my grammar is horrid
-Dave

[bigred]

If the athiest is wrong (which I believe he is) then he will be burning in hell.

If you choose to be athiest, thats your choice. I've got friends who are athiest and we co-exist peacefully.

Is this before our after they're burning in hell?

YAY GOD

[Warpe]

...If I'm right (which I believe I am) then when I die I will be walking streets of gold and be wealthy beyond comprehension...

You'd have to be to function in an economy that uses gold as paving material.

[Pelion]

Religion is such a big business now that turns many away.

get an NIV bible, wal-mart has em for 20 bucks.

hmmmmmmm

[Rabid Dog]

Here is the question that I pose to you:

If, at the end of my life, living a good life in which i was kind to others and tried not to lie, cheat or steal, but not believing in the existence of the god of the Bible or Torah or Koran any more than believing in the Babylonian or Norse gods, but respecting and perhaps even worshipping nature, I died, and was confronted by the one God, dont you think that God would be merciful? As a Christian, dont you have to? Isnt that what Jesus died for?

I can only speak for the bible. I have never read the Torah or Koran. No where in the bible does it say "If you are a good person you will go to heaven", No where. It does specifically state "That who so ever believeth in him (GOD) shall have eternal everlasting life". Thats what I believe and what I hold to. Thats my choice. Your choice is to make the choice you feel is right for you. Too many people use the excuse that if GOD is a just and forgiving GOD then he will let me into heaven simply because I was good and treated people right. But unfortunately thats not what the bible says he said. GOD lets us make our own choices. You either choose to believe in him, which is your ticket into heaven. Or you choose not to believe in him, which means ticket was revoked. Even if you were good. But thats your choice to make, GOD doesnt make it for you.

The God of the Bible (or Torah or Koran) does not exist. These are 2000+ year old documents written by man, not by God, handed down from oral tradition. Not only that, they have been translated and changed multiple times. How can that God exist?

Ok, this is going to be a stupid analgy here I'm fixing to use. Your free to call me ignorant, I can live with that. Here we go. Do you believe that King Arthur lived? Do you have proof? There are writings he lived and documentation of his exploits. But those were written by scribes, who would follow him around and give their interpretation of his adventures. History books are filled with data that none of us can say actually existed or happened. We have to take the word of those who wrote about them. We have to have faith that the writings are true, even when the only supporting data are words written on paper that were found hundreds of years after the death of whoever it was written about.

This is pulled from the Brittania: King Arthur, His name is synonymous with wisdom and fairness. The names of his wife, magician and knights are household words. His sword symbolizes righteous power. His capitol city is an icon for earthly perfection, but with all this name recognition, we still aren't sure that he ever actually lived. http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html

Yet we take the word of historians that he actually did exist. Historians are human and humans are not perfect. Whether you choose to believe their is or isnt a GOD is your choice. And its a choice that GOD allows you to make. Or if you dont believe in GOD, then its a choice that society allows you to make.

I am not highly educated in evolution and no I cant quote the bible word for word. I can simply state that my choice is I believe in GOD and the Bible and there is just nothing that can or will sway me differently. I am not a debatist so my explanations are on the simple side. And as stated in my last post I do not get into arguments over who's right and who's wrong concerning religion or politics.

I will say this though and I firmly believe it. If you believe in Religion then its a death sentence. Too many religions re write the bible to fit their personal needs. To be a christian to me means I believe what the bible says. Not how one denomination interprets it differently than another, to me thats when your getting into religion and I stay out of that. Also, every person is different. One may read the bible and interpret it one way and another will read it and interpret it another. Its just how it speaks to them. We all comprehend at different levels. And it is a faith thing.

Like I basically said, Im simple minded. So for you college guys and gals my interpretation may be on the stupid side. But I hope it made sense on how I view it.

[Rabid Dog]

To me, walking streets of gold sounds alot more +EV than burning in hell for eternity.

So your belief comes from which is +EV? Sounds alot like greed to me. Those streets of gold have a long firey drop beneath them. Tread carefully.

If greed is living eternity in a Paradise then I'm guilty. Thats the choice I made and the choice that was afforded to me.

[JetA_Jockey]

Religion is such a big business now that turns many away.

get an NIV bible, wal-mart has em for 20 bucks.

hmmmmmmm

if you can't find yourself spending money on a Bible, give me your address and I'll send you mine. I'm serious.

[Rabid Dog]

If the athiest is wrong (which I believe he is) then he will be burning in hell.

If you choose to be athiest, thats your choice. I've got friends who are athiest and we co-exist peacefully.

Is this before our after they're burning in hell?

YAY GOD

Before of course. But as an atheist then I guess since you dont believe in GOD you wouldnt believe in hell either. So the point is moot.

[Rabid Dog]

...If I'm right (which I believe I am) then when I die I will be walking streets of gold and be wealthy beyond comprehension...

You'd have to be to function in an economy that uses gold as paving material.

Now that is funny

[boost]

Ok, this is going to be a stupid analgy here I'm fixing to use.

yah.. that was pretty fucking stupid .. seeing as King Arthur is as real as Robin Hood, or Odyseus, or James Bond.

[boost]

Religion is such a big business now that turns many away.

get an NIV bible, wal-mart has em for 20 bucks.

hmmmmmmm

if you can't find yourself spending money on a Bible, give me your address and I'll send you mine. I'm serious.

this one went rrrright over your head eh? I dont think he wants a bible, the point is that you put organized religion down for being a 'big business' now, and then you tell him to go to walmart (the destroyer of small business) and buy a bible....

[jdubs]

this is the best thread I have seen on FTR....

[boost]

So Im curious rabbid, what is a true believer? How about a muslim. They believe in god, thier god really isnt THAT different then yours, same with jews. The teachings are all basically the same, they are telling you to be a good person, ect ect. Like if youre born in almsot anywhere in the middle east, you are going to be born into islam. People who do have access to christianity problably wont get it until later in life, and by that time islam is firmly engrained in thier brain. So are you telling me that most of the people born in the middle east are damned to hell. Dont you see the foolishness in this? What about 'believers' who do less then moral things in thier life? Did all the popes go to heaven? If you know anything about christian history (true christian history.. Im not sure how much of this you can learn at your local church) you would know theres quite a bit of corruption and intrigue in the church. Do these people simply have to repent on thier death bed and they get to walk the gold paved streets? How about the person that is a great upstanding person, lets say princess diana was not a 'believer'... are you telling me she would go to hell? Yet a corrupt pope that repents would get in? This is ridiculous, and if this is the way that god works, then I say fuck him.

Dont you see how much of an obvious 'recruitment' tool this is? Its pretty sick... scaring people into believing, and of course donating... JetA is wrong, religion hasnt become a big business, it always has been.. hah..