Meaning?
11-09-2014 09:56 PM
#301
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Meaning? |
11-09-2014 09:58 PM
#302
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also since they cut vic my dreams of ray stevenson as vic and kevin mckidd as jon conn are dead! | |
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11-09-2014 09:59 PM
#303
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oh wait nvm you probably havent read TWOW chapters. ignore what i said pls. | |
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11-09-2014 10:05 PM
#304
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you mean cut vic from the show? im assuming that as well. |
11-09-2014 10:30 PM
#305
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that all of GRRM's women are idiots who need to be saved by men. I started to notice this in AFFC, where all the lead females, particularly Cersei and Brienne, are just dummies. I adore Cersei's arc for the pseudo-dramatic irony in that the reader strongly suspects she's making all the wrong moves, and Brienne has absolutely no ability to keep herself from having to be saved by men. |
11-10-2014 12:05 AM
#306
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11-10-2014 12:32 AM
#307
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Wuf, what about all the dumb fucks on the wall? Im sure theres a million other examples of men being dumb too. | |
11-10-2014 12:52 AM
#308
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The men certainly aren't devoid of idiocy. I mean, Robb is probably the best example, but I think the mens' poor decision making is a little subdued. The theme I'm getting at is specifically twofold: (1) women creating their own downfall from bad decisions, and (2) men having to bail them out. Brienne, Cersei, and Arianne are fantastic examples of this. I'm not referring to the existence of men who have made bad decisions, like all those on the wall did at some point, but to the storytelling process where we see that the women are constantly getting themselves into trouble and getting bailed out by men in ways that the men are not |
11-10-2014 03:47 AM
#309
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Asha and Arianne are reasonably well-rounded. Arianne made some mistakes but they were honest ones. It's likely that the Myrcella debacle was impossible to prevent and her motives were reasonable. Brienne is dumb but not because she's a female, she's simply incredibly young and naive. Arya is amazing, she hasn't needed any of her saviors really except perhaps Syrio. In fact, she's playing the kindly man currently. | |
11-10-2014 03:52 AM
#310
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Arent Margery and the Queen of thrones pretty epic female leads? Sure you can point to shenanigans due to Cersei nonsense, but I feel like that shit wasnt their fault. There may be a larger theme going on too where characters cant survive on their own and have to lean on someone. It just so happens that there are more male characters than female ones, so statistically there arent as many female ones to lean on. Im not sure Ygritte did anything wrong either, nor Osha. Meanwhile you have lots of male leads getting owned for being retards too. (Theon, Ned Stark, and Joffrey obv). But then also Jaime Lannister's early problems all stem from foolishly deciding to throw a young kid out a window (he flew out a windowwwww), and you cant tell me Jorah was being bright during his whole "shit, ya i was totally a spy love". | |
11-10-2014 03:37 PM
#311
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The pattern breaks down with the less scene time the women get. Olenna, for example, doesn't fit, but she also doesn't get much time and is more of a foil than a central character. I only see the pattern when GRRM has had to put more effort into their stories. Even Ygritte could be said to fall into this, since, um, what was her arc? Having faith in a man and dying because of it? |
11-10-2014 04:44 PM
#312
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BTW, why do you think Arya is playing the Kindly Man? If you're referring to something in the TWOW chapters then just ignore me. But so far I am pretty unsure what's going on with Arya. This story is extremely non-standard |
11-10-2014 04:57 PM
#313
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I honestly do not know how to feel about the show now. The s5 changes look to be so huge. The only arcs that look like will be similar are Cersei and Jon. I was honestly really looking forward to seeing Barristan taking over Meereen, but from the looks of it that won't happen. They're just destroying his character. He could be so cool. We needed to see him beat the piss out of Nero. But no, he's basically just a cardboard cutout |
11-10-2014 06:50 PM
#314
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She's warging into cats and having wolf dreams. | |
11-10-2014 06:53 PM
#315
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I guess I still don't get it. |
11-10-2014 06:54 PM
#316
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We don't know what the Kindly Man knows. In fact we are given some reason to suspect he might even be able to read her thoughts. He probably can't, but it's not ruled out |
11-10-2014 07:11 PM
#317
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I'm just saying she's got her own objectives, mainly survival, and she's quite likely to ditch the faceless men as soon as their goals aren't aligned anymore. You should check out her TWOW chapter, it's pretty cool. Very vignette-y and not that connected to the main story, so it's fun to read on its own. | |
11-10-2014 07:12 PM
#318
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You should also read dunk and egg. | |
11-11-2014 03:27 PM
#319
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i mean when you have your opinions of women doing dumb things you have to remember arya is like 10, sansa is like 12, margery is wrecking cersei. arienne comes around to fold eventually and even she is very young. dany is also like 14 or something iirc. and the only truly stupid thing dany has done is wreck qyn martell. | |
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11-11-2014 03:27 PM
#320
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also no one is allowed to talk shit about davos. | |
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11-11-2014 05:11 PM
#321
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Stannis certainly has done stuff worth disagreeing with, but not the kind of stupid that 15 yr old girl does, which is the kind of stupid I'm talking about. Stannis is stuck between a rock and hard place. I think that's different. |
11-11-2014 05:27 PM
#322
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BTW I'm not saying the portrayals aren't realistic. It is totally reasonable for a naive person to act naively. I just think I've noticed a trend in almost all the major storylines where there is a woman who needs a man to help her make the right decisions |
11-11-2014 06:15 PM
#323
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Isnt the last scene with Dany meant to show her rejection of exactly this trope? She essentially says "fuck the patriarchy", gets on her dragon, and flys off. She abandons her 'im a mother to you all" role, and it seems like shes gonna start beating the drums of war again (or so i hope). | |
11-11-2014 06:20 PM
#324
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Idk. It seems to me that you're handwaving away any stupid decision a male character makes, and harshly criticizing even the most trivial decision a woman makes. | |
11-11-2014 09:44 PM
#325
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Wuf I think you have something of a point but are probably taking it too far. | |
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11-11-2014 11:45 PM
#326
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I haven't discounted Olenna. She is a small side character. We haven't even gotten a POV of anybody close to her. Also I'm not talking about the show. Pretty sure Brienne never even met the Hound in the books, and Olenna has a bigger role in the show. Her role is basically the same, but relative to everything else being bigger, she's much smaller in the books. |
11-12-2014 02:10 AM
#327
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I have to admit at this point I can't even remember the books. I know there were stark (no pun intended) differences in the show this season but a lot of details about relationships escape me. | |
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11-12-2014 02:35 PM
#328
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11-12-2014 02:37 PM
#329
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11-12-2014 02:53 PM
#330
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No, mountain is dead. It aint happening. | |
11-12-2014 04:04 PM
#331
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NONE SHALL DERAIL THE CLEGANEBOWL HYPE TRAIN! | |
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11-12-2014 05:07 PM
#332
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Ok fine, its probably him in the armor. But Sandor just wants to chill | |
11-12-2014 05:38 PM
#333
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For the purposes of my claim, Varys also is a side character. I only see the dynamic when a bunch of words have gone into explaining and developing the character, so that almost entirely means when they're POV |
11-12-2014 11:44 PM
#334
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Wuf, if you want us to just drop this ok but, I feel like you've moved the goal posts. | |
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11-13-2014 02:33 AM
#335
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As bad as the Sansa chapters are generally, and as bad as Dany's have gotten, I like that they were in the story as they were. I like that one stark child is a wuss. I like that shes slowly catching up to everyone else too. I also like that Dany is having difficulties in deciding what to do, when all she is getting advice from are two knights and ppl that eat horse hearts. Given that Dany got all this pressure to be 'mother', I like that she succumbed to it (even though it was a bad decision, and left her sitting in merreen for 1000 pages). | |
11-13-2014 03:10 AM
#336
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I am well behind you guys, and this may seem too simplistic an idea to even entertain, or it's too obvious, but is there a way for the end game to not involve widescale massacre and toppling of all existing power struggles? | |
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11-13-2014 01:11 PM
#337
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The others are coming. And they are about to fuck shit up | |
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11-13-2014 02:43 PM
#338
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ikr | |
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11-13-2014 03:58 PM
#339
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if jon dany and tyrion all live to the end im'a be slightly perturbed. | |
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11-13-2014 06:05 PM
#340
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They are the definition of side characters. The amount we understand Olenna is 100x less than the amount we understand Cersei. |
11-13-2014 06:09 PM
#341
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being a "side character" or "foil" doesn't make Olenna a non-woman. yes you worded it poorly to start. | |
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11-13-2014 06:16 PM
#342
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I also don't think Cersei is dumb or non-independent. I think most of her development is centered around her becoming free of associations with various men (Robert, Jamie, Tywin) . She's not the most skilled player on the board but she's not without chops. | |
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11-13-2014 06:18 PM
#343
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That was hardly a poor wording choice since the most obvious thing in the world was that I wasn't talking about literally all. Nobody would suggest such an idiotic thing. Every other part of my posts on the subject were about central, big roles. |
11-13-2014 06:20 PM
#344
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11-13-2014 06:22 PM
#345
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FFS wuf | |
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11-13-2014 06:23 PM
#346
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AFFC might actually be my favorite book because of all the Cersei chapters where she gloats about being the smartest person in the world. Meanwhile it's obvious to the reader that she's a fool, constructing her inevitable downfall |
11-13-2014 06:25 PM
#347
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Barristan needs Dany far more than vice versa. | |
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11-13-2014 06:26 PM
#348
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11-13-2014 06:30 PM
#349
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No to the former. Without any of her men, Dany is doomed. In fact, her doom hastened when she kicked her main man to the curb. Barristan would be just dandy without her. I'm sure we're going to find out in b6 how Barristan saved her shit while she was out playing with her dragon |
11-13-2014 06:45 PM
#350
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Barristan is a knight looking for a ruler, a hero looking for a cause. I'm not sure where he is without one. | |
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11-13-2014 06:57 PM
#351
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Melisandre isn't playing Stannis. She believes he is Azor. My only point with her was that she is an example, not of a woman needing a man, but of a woman's problems being created by her own dumbness. Perhaps those will change in the future, but all we know now is that she has pretty irrational reasons for thinking Azor is Stannis. If instead of ignoring what the fires show her, she listened, she'd be backing the real Azor. Or something. Her arc isn't nearly complete, and the theme often isn't there while an arc is adolescent. At first I thought Mel was an exception and my thesis was wrong, but then we got Mel chapters and got to see that the most important thing about her hinges on her saying "that's totally not what i thought, but oh well i will continue thinking what i thought" |
11-13-2014 07:09 PM
#352
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I don't think Arya recognizes authority figures, I think there are countless examples of this. For examples, she's unmoved by Beric's resurrection and the power of the Lord of Light and the BwoB in general; she hides Needle for later use. | |
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11-13-2014 07:14 PM
#353
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Barristan is a knight who wants a ruler. Dany needs Barristan to keep her from destroying herself. I think wants and needs are important distinctions here. |
11-13-2014 07:20 PM
#354
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it's definitely a theme | |
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11-13-2014 07:26 PM
#355
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They're classical authority figures for Arya. Her listening or lack thereof doesn't make them not authority figures. Most interesting dynamics with an authority figure includes rejection of that figure anyways. |
11-13-2014 07:39 PM
#356
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yeah for sure, like I thought the Amy parts in "Gone Girl" were better than the husband parts. | |
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11-13-2014 07:45 PM
#357
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Yes part of me wants LF to sit upon the ashes |
11-13-2014 08:55 PM
#358
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Dany eventually figures it out though, and adverts her death though right? Without any male bitches to help her. And Cersei, for all her arrogance, was being heavily manipulated by Varys into making all those follies. | |
11-13-2014 09:35 PM
#359
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Dany didn't figure it out. She just rode off with her dragon. Maybe she retrospectively put it together in her last ADWD chapter, I don't remember, but that wouldn't change anything since it's retro |
11-13-2014 09:44 PM
#360
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GRRM is a fat troll who probably had to pay for sex most of his life. it's not surprising he doesn't have a good feel for women. | |
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11-14-2014 03:59 AM
#361
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barristan would be abso fucked if he didnt have dany. maybe you missed the part where he told her that he has failed his duty and now must find a true king and die in their service. | |
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11-14-2014 03:07 PM
#362
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That's what he wants, not what he needs. Now, if Dany was abandoning things and it was wrecking Barristan, then you could say he needs her. For all we know, without Dany he would just go "aw schucks" then live his life like any old man. But if Dany lost him, or more like if she lost the calm, reasoned, powerful men around her, she'd be dead |
11-14-2014 03:27 PM
#363
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I think we're at an impasse on this topic, although it's been interesting. Because we're thoroughly bogged down in semantics. | |
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11-14-2014 03:28 PM
#364
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my list of good decision making adults includes | |
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11-14-2014 03:29 PM
#365
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Davos is a good one | |
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11-14-2014 03:36 PM
#366
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Reading AGOT last night and I was reminded of how much I always loathed Catelyn. I don't want somebody else's kid, but you can bet your balls that if it was my responsibility, I wouldn't be cruel like she is with Jon. She's a disgusting person. Just selfish and thoughtless |
11-15-2014 12:41 AM
#367
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For book 6, i will be incredibly upset if Dany doesnt burninate all of Khal Jhaqo's group. Dany hated them for raping a girl, so I fully expect hellfire to come down. | |
11-15-2014 01:49 AM
#368
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the saddest moments of the entire series is when ygritte dies in jon's arms and she says how they should have never left the cave and she dies with jon wondering if it was his arrow that killed her. | |
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11-15-2014 01:49 AM
#369
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fuck the show for massacring that moment with the boy archer bro nod. | |
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11-15-2014 09:19 PM
#370
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I am going to be very upset if s5 doesn't include Jon lobbing off Janos' head and the whole Commander choosing. Both of those scenes are better for Jon's character than any other. But if I laid money on it I would bet that the show will do neither. It appears they've already given Jon the Commandership by default, and they would probably decide that they don't want to tempt compromising Jon's status as a pure hero to the audience by having him cut off Janos' head. |
11-15-2014 10:07 PM
#371
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I don't hate that post. Bringing back Jaqen would be awesome but book readers will RAGE. | |
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11-15-2014 10:07 PM
#372
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I want nothing more than to see Tyrion helping dany and riding one of her dragons. | |
11-15-2014 10:13 PM
#373
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I suspect the show will ignore so much of the prophecy |
11-15-2014 11:06 PM
#374
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Strong Belwas shouldn't have let HBO cut him obv. | |
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11-17-2014 01:51 AM
#375
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why did they cut Nymeria from the show? Wouldn't have taken that much to add a few scenes. | |
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