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Should people spank their kids?

View Poll Results: Should people spank their kids?

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  • Yes

    20 45.45%
  • No

    24 54.55%
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  1. #1
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Default Should people spank their kids?

    I just want to get a discussion going on this. I'm tired of hearing a bunch of shit about how spanking your kids is so fucking terrible, yet all of these little teenage fuckers completely suck at life because they think they should just do whatever the fuck they feel like all of the time and be sorry sacks of shit.
  2. #2
    bikes's Avatar
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  3. #3
    On the forums homepage, I could only read "Shoud people spank their..." and was hoping to see something less predicatable than kids.

    Re: Corporal punishment, meh. I had my fair share growing up in an Asian household. I don't have nightmares about it, or think about it ever even. I grew up to be awesome, so results oriented thinking says beat your kids all you want.
  4. #4
    I was expecting "Should people spank their monkey"
  5. #5
    I was expecting "Should people spank their slaves" given who started the thread.
  6. #6
    bikes's Avatar
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  7. #7
    rong's Avatar
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    Louis ck sums this up pretty well.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  8. #8
    IMO, spanking should be OK when other things are not getting through, but not as a general punishment or a way to vent your frustration on the kid.

    I was spanked as a kid, with a belt, and it worked. I got it a few times and after that I seriously thought about my actions in order to avoid it happening again.

    I always thought "It hurts me more than it hurts you" was a load of shit that my parents were trying to feed me, but now that I'm on the other side of it, I find it to be very true.
  9. #9
    rong's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned, if you get to the point where you need to hit your kid, you've fucked up already. But I imagine most people don't bother to research how to raise a kid, so before making spanking illegal or w/e, they should educate people on how to raise a child in the first place. That said, my eldest sprog is only 3 and I've sure wanted to smack her on several occasions, but I believe that is my failure rather than hers, though this may change as the years go by.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    IMO, spanking should be OK when other things are not getting through, but not as a general punishment or a way to vent your frustration on the kid.

    I was spanked as a kid, with a belt, and it worked. I got it a few times and after that I seriously thought about my actions in order to avoid it happening again.

    I always thought "It hurts me more than it hurts you" was a load of shit that my parents were trying to feed me, but now that I'm on the other side of it, I find it to be very true.
    +1

    As they get older there are much better ways than spanking to get them to behave/mind.

    "No video games for a week" works wonders.

    Better yet is "Give me your keys" but by then they usually get it.
    "Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    ...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
  11. #11
    Galapogos's Avatar
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    Pretty sure teenagers being shitty has almost nothing to do with people being afraid to spank their kids. I'm also not anti-spanking when it's done in moderation fwiw.

    Problem is, I think spanking is such a subjective term that you can't give it a simple yes or no answer. Like where I said "in moderation" above, who's to determine what the appropriate amount is. Or how hard it is, or if it's done more as an outlet for a parent's anger than as a disciplinary tool.

    So while one parent may spank my kid with a quick swat on the ass to get their attention to get them to stop fighting with their sibling; some other parent may take their kid and hit them full force because they left a toy in the living room. That's not even close to the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, if you get to the point where you need to hit your kid, you've fucked up already. But I imagine most people don't bother to research how to raise a kid, so before making spanking illegal or w/e, they should educate people on how to raise a child in the first place. That said, my eldest sprog is only 3 and I've sure wanted to smack her on several occasions, but I believe that is my failure rather than hers, though this may change as the years go by.
    This is pretty much how I feel. And while I'm not a parent, I feel that I have a much better insight on this than most non-parents. I lived in the same house as my nephews from when they were born until they were about 4 and 8. I did spank them, and I really regret it. However I was not raising them, I just got stuck with the task of being the default disciplinarian since I was the only male in the house.

    Even though I generally don't agree with spanking, I think that it's possible that in a perfectly stable household, it could be employed well. However when it's used wrong and the environment is not a good one, then I think it will just do more harm than good long term. Read up on some studies regarding physical punishment of children-- there's as much of a consensus regarding how it negatively impacts the child in the long run as there is about the reality of global warming.
  13. #13
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikes View Post
    That's not spanking, that's just beating the shit out of somebody.

    On that topic though, the girl, who wasn't actually disabled as the description of that video says, on the receiving end only posted that video several (seven, I believe) years later because her dad stopped giving her money hand over fist (and took away a Mercedes she was driving) just to get back at him. He stopped giving her handouts because she dropped out of college very close to graduation.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 11-27-2012 at 04:03 PM.
  14. #14
    Eric's Avatar
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    It is a delicate issue because there is a fine line between discipline and abuse.
  15. #15
    Pretty sure emotional blackmail and other types of psychological warfare are far more damaging than a well-dosed smack on the ass.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by eugmac View Post
    Pretty sure emotional blackmail and other types of psychological warfare are far more damaging than a well-dosed smack on the ass.
    ya, and going deeper into the caveat in my last post-- studies could be skewed by the fact that parents that don't hit their kids are more likely to be more stable, educated individuals who have taken the time to learn about parenting instead of just winging it. So physical punishment could potentially not be the culprit, but just a compounding symptom of bad parenting that would otherwise be benign or even helpful. Of course this isn't an endorsement of physical punishment, but just a objective thought that seems worth putting out there.
  17. #17
    Renton's Avatar
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    I think that it's a clear no. For context, I was spanked often as a child. I think that we've just discovered way too many connections between child abuse and violent behavior to be able to justify spanking anymore.
  18. #18
    rong's Avatar
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    I think what a lot of people fail to understand is that raising a child is hard work. Seriously hard work. Well, if you do it properly anyway. It takes an enormous amount of time and effort. Trying to give a child the amount of time and attention it needs is extremely demanding. Trying to juggle a social life, a career and whatever else as well as raise a child is even more difficult. I think smacking is an easy way of dealing with a situation. I don't think people who smack their children are necessarily bad parents, certainly not those who will slap a kid on the arse for misbehaving (proper beating your child is just plain wrong though). I just think there are better ways of dealing with it. But I can understand how tempting it is.

    Also, if you haven't put in the required amount of time and effort in the beginning I wonder if by the time a child is say 5 or so if it's too late to change the dynamic that has been created. I imagine it is possible, but you come back to the time and effort problem again, needing even more of both than you did in the first place.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  19. #19
    rong's Avatar
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    Just to add, I was spanked as a child, not frequently and not badly, just a wallop on the butt or back of the legs and probably no more than say 10 times in my life. I don't think it did me any harm and I don't blame my parents in any way, but I don't think it was necessary either.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  20. #20
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    So you bunch of candy asses think that a seven year old kicking and screaming in the floor of a grocery store is perfectly fine? If I would have done that shit, I would have gotten my ass tore the fuck up because I was taught not to act like a little motherfucking shit. But no! That's child abuse!

    Which is worse between getting your ass whooped when you're a kid for doing stupid shit so that you learn how to fucking act or going to jail before you're 20 for beating the shit out of an old lady and robbing her just because you wanted to buy more Playstation games?
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    I think that it's a clear no. For context, I was spanked often as a child. I think that we've just discovered way too many connections between child abuse and violent behavior to be able to justify spanking anymore.
    It's a fair point, but I wonder how much of this correlation is due to a selection bias.

    For instance, consider that people with abusive or violent tendencies would definitely be the type to spank their children. Naturally, genes being genes and all, often times these tendencies get passed on to their children, and they grow up to be abusive and violent themselves. Is it the spanking, then, that is causing this violent behaviour in their children? I say, maybe, but it's hardly a fait accompli. More research should be done in this area.

    I'll also say here that I agree with Eric in saying that there definitely is a fine line between discipline and abuse, and we should be still prosecuting abusive parents.
  22. #22
    rong's Avatar
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    Spoon, that's my point. That kids parents fucked up long ago, so now they are in a situation where non violent action is less effective. But the point is if they had behaved differently in the beginning, they prob wouldn't have been in that position.
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  23. #23
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    Spoon, that's my point. That kids parents fucked up long ago, so now they are in a situation where non violent action is less effective. But the point is if they had behaved differently in the beginning, they prob wouldn't have been in that position.
    Nobody's perfect. Once they're in that position, it seems wrong to take spanking away as an option.
  24. #24
    rong's Avatar
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    I dunno. How fucked up must a 7 yo be to acting in that way. How is hitting the poor thing gonna help?
    I'm the king of bongo, baby I'm the king of bongo bong.
  25. #25
    I have 2 kids and I never even thought of spanking them, I think there are better ways to educate/disipline your kid then hitting them. It just does not make sense to me to hit a defenseless kid


  26. #26
    Galapogos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rong View Post
    Spoon, that's my point. That kids parents fucked up long ago, so now they are in a situation where non violent action is less effective. But the point is if they had behaved differently in the beginning, they prob wouldn't have been in that position.
    You're falling for it...


    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Nobody's perfect. Once they're in that position, it seems wrong to take spanking away as an option.
    You're straw manning him with a false dichotomy. The options are not "tear that ass up" and "meditate on the current negative situation and then politely ask your child to respect himself, others, and the environment blessed upon him by mother earth." And if the child has progressed to that point, then the parent has failed long ago. If they then chose to spank the kid they are failing further by choosing a short term solution that likely has negative long term repercussions.

    So can we all understand and relate to a parent who is in over their head, didn't realize what it took to be a parent, and now finds themselves with a child who is out of control? Can we understand how these mistakes can compound to the point where spanking seems like a good idea in the moment? Sure. But the question is "Should people spank their kids?" and despite the nuances of the situation, the answer still seems to be a resounding "no."
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Galapogos View Post
    You're falling for it...
    ha, me too I guess.
  29. #29
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You're straw manning him with a false dichotomy. The options are not "tear that ass up" and "meditate on the current negative situation and then politely ask your child to respect himself, others, and the environment blessed upon him by mother earth." And if the child has progressed to that point, then the parent has failed long ago. If they then chose to spank the kid they are failing further by choosing a short term solution that likely has negative long term repercussions.

    So can we all understand and relate to a parent who is in over their head, didn't realize what it took to be a parent, and now finds themselves with a child who is out of control? Can we understand how these mistakes can compound to the point where spanking seems like a good idea in the moment? Sure. But the question is "Should people spank their kids?" and despite the nuances of the situation, the answer still seems to be tied at 5-5.
    Fyp
  30. #30
    I heard a story (probably on Reddit) where a traveling Canadian family encountered a French one and the Canadian kids were unruly brats and the French ones weren't and the Canadian parents eventually asked the French parents how they discipline their kids and the French parents replied that they they don't understand the concept of discipline with kids because they "educate" instead.


    I once worked with a guy whose kids acted very cordial and controlled in public. I'm not sure if he ever spanked them, but I do know that their behavior was a product of their respect for him, not their fear of him.


    A story posted by somebody else on a different forum

    My cousin had triplets in her late thirties. The girls were good kids, but the boy ...

    Let's just say, he had issues.

    I would babysit them from time to time and my cousin told me to "tear their little asses up if they don't mind."

    Seemed a little drastic as I didn't beat my own child. but ok.

    The girls were fine all day, good as gold; the boy had his "issues"

    I took my little mob over to the mother's and after about 15 minutes, she turned to me and said, "What are going to do with that one? And I'll tell you now, they already beat him and it's just making him tough."

    I decided to let the kids eat outside for snack time. When the boy came for his snack, I gave it to him and as started for the door I said, "Slow your roll Cochise, you get to have your snack in the living room."

    "You can't do that. Kids aren't allowed to sit in the living room."

    "We are making an exception especially for you. We even put a special chair right in the middle of the floor, just for you."

    I escorted him to my mother's living room and in the middle of the room was a stool from the kitchen counter.

    "You sit there. You eat there. And when the other kids finish their snack and are playing, you can watch them from that window."

    I left the room. After getting the kids set up on the front porch, I checked back with the boy. He was crying all over his ice cream sandwich.

    I had no more problems and he had no more "issues."
    I don't have the entirety of a solution, but spanking is a product of adults not understanding children well enough.
  31. #31
    A better question: should people be allowed to have children before the age of 35?

    The answer is no

    Another question: should people be allowed to get married before the age of 30?

    Answer: no

    Third question: does wuf have all the right answers?

    Answer: only when he declares he does
  32. #32
    bikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Hi, I'm Wufwugy
    tbh i think you just bait this post out these days.
  33. #33
    i cant remember the last time that meme was used correctly

    it did happen like once. i was gonna point it out but decided not to

    here's a hint: save it for when i say stupid things, not smart things. bigred's joke that created the meme wasnt that funny (it was slightly clever along the lines of what juveniles retort), but thats the correct context
  34. #34
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Why does the question start with SHOULD? Of course you shouldn't lol.

    However, if you feel like it's a necessary disciplinary method for your child, then by all means go ahead, as long as it's legal in your country. Your kids might not accept at a later age that you punished them with illegal means when they were little. Using a belt or something else seems pretty stupid and unnecessary.

    Here's some thoughts for those of you who don't have kids yet:

    Giving a light spanking as a last resort punishment works pretty well on small kids. I used to spank my first born (Annie) fairly regularly and she responded well. She never thought that I was wrong to hit her, because she always knew what she had done was wrong.

    At some point she started to understand that spanking doesn't really hurt that much (when I do it at least). When she was three, she came to me and said "Daddy, could you give me a spanking, I quite like it actually." I agreed, but just as I was about to hit her, she said that she changed her mind and I of course let her go. After that I never spanked her again.

    I have since found a far superior punishment. I have a sauna at home that's always ready to use - this is our "correctional facility" and it works beautifully. It's of course possible to inflict any amount of pain by simply throwing water on the stove, but the cool thing is that you never need to, it's all completely psychological. You only need to raise the temperature slightly above comfort level and they will start crying out of fear for more heat (because they have no control).

    In fact they fear the sauna so much that only dragging them into the room and on the bench will make them cry so hard that it's punishment enough. If they promise not to do whatever they have done again, I will let them go the first time. If they break their promise they have to face the heat, quite literally. Doesn't happen often though.

    Annie is now five and she has recently started to really like being in the sauna, so it doesn't quite work for her as punishment anymore. I could of course raise the temp really high, but so far she hasn't done anything to deserve that. Serious talks have been enough.

    Always make sure your kids know what they have done is wrong. Never punish your kids unless you're sure they do. A child shouldn't be punished for breaking something by mistake, for instance. Also think about the fact that a child can easily forget the rules in the middle of play, which should have some weight in court.

    Obviously never hit your children because you are mad at them. In fact you should never be mad at your children, being angry is just the frustration of not understanding why your children behave like they do.


  35. #35
    bikes's Avatar
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    i love p4's sauna stories. so great.
  36. #36
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    Can you guys really argue that confronting immature, irrational behavior with the same is going to help the situation?

    A child acting up in public is just an unrefined attempt at getting attention. Probably related to poor nutrition coupled with an irregular sleep schedule and a lack of wholesome, inclusive dialogue with their parents.

    Hitting someone who is struggling to cope with the world isn't helping anything. I mean, one is a small child, one is a large adult... the notion of using coercion is abhorrent to me.

    I was hit a lot as a kid. I saw my brother thrown through a wall once when he was in grade school. I'm not going to get in to it.

    What I will say is this. From the youngest age, I knew... I fucking KNEW that it was brutality. I knew that it was unreasonable and indefensible. I knew that I wasn't trying to "be bad" I was just a precocious kid who needed discipline. I needed to be shown how to think ethically and how to think of other people. I didn't need to be hit by the people who were supposed to protect me and teach me to thrive in a changing world. In no other circumstance in our society is that kind of behavior tolerated.

    Next time you're thinking of hitting a child, just fucking remind yourself that you're an adult, and they're an idiot who has no understanding of the world, and they don't fucking understand what it means to really sacrifice for someone. Include them in your hardships and trust them to understand even the most complex of emotions. Show them what a real man/woman is by having the wisdom to act rationally and compassionately even in the face of outrageous provocation. That will create a child who respects you and your goals.

    Fuck this conversation. I am crying now. Seriously balling. And I am up 6 BI on the day. I need to regroup.

    Hitting kids is WRONG. Don't fucking do it.
  37. #37
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Hitting kids is WRONG. Don't fucking do it.
    There's hitting and then there's hitting. I was spanked a lot as a kid and I haven't got a single bad memory from it. I knew I deserved it every time and I even feel like being spanked was getting off easy for the shit I used to pull.

    Later on my dad used to punish me by taking away money I had saved. That left far worse scars and traumas. I really wish he had hit me instead.


  38. #38
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Can you guys really argue that confronting immature, irrational behavior with the same is going to help the situation?

    A child acting up in public is just an unrefined attempt at getting attention. Probably related to poor nutrition coupled with an irregular sleep schedule and a lack of wholesome, inclusive dialogue with their parents.

    Hitting someone who is struggling to cope with the world isn't helping anything. I mean, one is a small child, one is a large adult... the notion of using coercion is abhorrent to me.

    I was hit a lot as a kid. I saw my brother thrown through a wall once when he was in grade school. I'm not going to get in to it.

    What I will say is this. From the youngest age, I knew... I fucking KNEW that it was brutality. I knew that it was unreasonable and indefensible. I knew that I wasn't trying to "be bad" I was just a precocious kid who needed discipline. I needed to be shown how to think ethically and how to think of other people. I didn't need to be hit by the people who were supposed to protect me and teach me to thrive in a changing world. In no other circumstance in our society is that kind of behavior tolerated.

    Next time you're thinking of hitting a child, just fucking remind yourself that you're an adult, and they're an idiot who has no understanding of the world, and they don't fucking understand what it means to really sacrifice for someone. Include them in your hardships and trust them to understand even the most complex of emotions. Show them what a real man/woman is by having the wisdom to act rationally and compassionately even in the face of outrageous provocation. That will create a child who respects you and your goals.

    Fuck this conversation. I am crying now. Seriously balling. And I am up 6 BI on the day. I need to regroup.

    Hitting kids is WRONG. Don't fucking do it.
    The hitting kids thread is down the hall, and there are several abusing kids threads in the BC. If you ask a mod, they can probably move your post there.
  39. #39
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    Punishments that involve physical harm, or fear of physical harm, are clearly immoral and unethical. I include spanking in here, and also p4's sauna story. To me it is immaterial that no pain actually occurred. You shouldnt be teaching children a "do this, or fear injury" way of living.

    Yes, it is important that children understand that their actions have consequences. It is also important that they understand how to behave properly. But nowhere in parenting should punishments involve what would normally be considered assault elsewhere.

    (Yes this is very general, and im also sure P4 is an excellent parent and that im misinterpreting something in his story. But the point is still that people, even children, should feel safe)
  40. #40
    Keep in mind that there is a huge difference betwween hitting children and giving a small smack on the ass to a toddler for doing things that are endangering them or others. I spanked my child (one smack on a clothed ass) twice. Once for climbing onto the TV stand when he was less than 2 (could have killed him if it tipped) and once in Walmart when he thought it was funny to hide in a clothing rack while we paniked looking for him ( he had been told to stop several times) I've never had to do it again, he's now 8. He still remembers it and if I ask him if he wants a spanking when he starts to misbehaves he straightens up right away.
  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I don't have the entirety of a solution, but spanking is a product of adults not understanding children well enough.
    I don't agree. Spanking can be a good and safe way of creating necessary boundaries for your children. Unfortunately a lot of parents abuse spanking as a way of coping with their own frustration.

    "You sit there. You eat there. And when the other kids finish their snack and are playing, you can watch them from that window."

    I left the room. After getting the kids set up on the front porch, I checked back with the boy. He was crying all over his ice cream sandwich.
    This actually sounds pretty cruel to me. I don't think you should make a child associate certain behavior with the fear of being embarassed and left alone.

    The fact that a single punishment (supposedly) corrected the behavior of the child also indicates that the punishment was likely too extreme.

    What most people don't consider is that inflicting (very mild) pain is a natural way to teach correct behavior to a child. That's how kids learn how to do things safely. They learn how to cope with hot materials such as food or candles by experiencing the pain caused by it. They learn that you need to be careful when climbing because falling hurts. They learn that hitting your sister isn't smart because she hits back.


  42. #42
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Punishments that involve physical harm, or fear of physical harm, are clearly immoral and unethical. I include spanking in here, and also p4's sauna story. To me it is immaterial that no pain actually occurred. You shouldnt be teaching children a "do this, or fear injury" way of living.
    What exactly is it that you want your kid to fear?

    Intelligent children will try to test their boundaries and some form of punishment is almost always necessary. The deterrent is the fear for the punishment you decide to give. What makes you think that any other form of fear is psychologically better than the fear of physical pain?

    Dealing with physical pain is something humans are naturally equipped for and it's easy to dose correctly, when compared with most other forms of punishment.

    Maybe you think it's right to lock the child in her room? Why is the fear of forced isolation and solitude better than the fear of pain?

    Another big problem with alternative forms of punishment is that the child will get very confused while you fuck up testing different methods that just won't work as well.


  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Always make sure your kids know what they have done is wrong. Never punish your kids unless you're sure they do. A child shouldn't be punished for breaking something by mistake, for instance. Also think about the fact that a child can easily forget the rules in the middle of play, which should have some weight in court.
    A lot of lol and a little bit of wtf in this post (I mean that in a good way), but this part is excellent. From what I read into most of the studies on the effects of spanking isn't so much that it's brutal and the kid is psychologically scarred, etc. It's that kids fundamentally learn about morality in a different way. A couple of examples:

    1) They show that it polarizes responses to authority and authoritarianism (either thinking that it's the end all be all and don't know how to think for themselves or they think that all authority is bad and just out to get them and squash them, both of which I think are bad results).

    2) They show that they end up emphasizing not getting caught doing bad things instead of not doing bad things.

    That's just a couple of examples. Anyway, I think that this is mostly a problem of not having a conversation with a kid and just using spanking as an easy out. I mean, I'm not a parent, and I admit complete ignorance on this, but it seems like a very obvious logical extension to go from the dad in that video whose only dialog on morality are "you don't listen! you're disobedient!" and "see what happens with that damn computer?!" and see how you get the results of these studies of kids having poor understandings of morality.

    I wasn't spanked growing up, but I probably had just as much of an incomplete development of understanding just from constantly getting detention for misbehaving at school but 99.99% of the time not feeling bad about it or really understanding what I did wrong. I'm not trying to play the victim card or anything, I'm just saying that it would have helped if someone sat me down and made me feel bad about what I was doing by explaining "A teacher's gotta get through his lesson and if you keep shouting out every single thing that comes to your hyperactive brain, then it doesn't just hurt your own education, it hurts everyone in the class's, and education's important because . . . blah blah blah." But the emphasis was so much on just doing what I was told that I didn't really get why I should care. Then again, maybe this was explained to me, and I don't at all doubt that I was hopeless, I was just sharing how I think that much of the problem of spanking is that it's used in lieu of bringing the kid to an understanding.

    Of course, once you've gone through all that heavy lifting of bringing the kid to that level of understanding as you sincerely claim that you do, it seems like it's easy from there and the spanking would no longer be necessary. Just make them feel bad for it, have them think on it without being allowed to play outside for the next x amount of time, and they've learned their lesson, but at this point we're going WELL into my area of admitted ignorance.
  44. #44
    Sticky subject. I was spanked as a kid but definitely not abused, I turned out ok...in general, I say no, but I had to vote yes, but only under two conditions:

    1) Child is in danger, or becoming a danger to himself/herself or others
    2) Child is outright defying his/her parents

    The first one is very situation dependent. Like if the child is going to hurt and/or kill themselves or others, it's time to step in and spank the shit out of them to let them know that will never be tolerated.

    Second one is for what spoon mentioned, a kid just outright defying their parents (oftentimes in public). Definitely worked on me, as I will never forget the fateful day that I realized my mom was boss in a JC Penney's. I knew we were out in public, knew that she couldn't do anything to me, so I was being the biggest shithead in the world. I think I uttered the words, "What are you going to do about it, MOM?" And with a swiftness never seen before, I got the back of my mom's hand to the teeth. She didn't hit me as hard as she could, she didn't follow-through with the backhand, it was more/less a quick pop to the mouth saying, "Shut the fuck up goddammit you're being an asshole and that is unacceptable and you know it." I knew it, and I stopped, and I'm a better man for it.


    Just my two cents, my kid isn't even two yet (next week)....but everything I've read that I agree with, is what's above.


  45. #45
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    Do you agree that positive reinforcement is an effective teaching tool? If so, why should any punishments you administer outside of this involve fear of injury or actual injury (minor or not)?

    I am not arguing that pain isnt effective motivation in the short run. Certainly, touching a hot stove will give you pause when you go to touch it again. However, I find it hard to believe that everyone, on even just this forum, learned that concept by actually touching the stove. Pain is not the only way to learn, and fear of it is not the only effective behavior modifier.

    Ill analogize to the "lost in the store" example Jyms just gave. When I was 8ish, I got pissed off at my cousin and decided to run off in a macy's or something. My mom found me about an hour later hysterical. I got lectured by a sobbing parent for about an hour and immediately understood why what it was I did was wrong. Like in Jyms's story, I didnt run off again. The biggest difference though is one involved an additional booty smack on top of the grieving parent.

    Back to your argument, it is clear that other methods of parenting that dont involve fearing the parent have had some success. One point you bring up is that these methods dont work as well, and I have to disagree on that point. If you fuck up using a method alternative to having the child fear you, you just try again. If you fuck up using the fear/pain method though, you've succeeded in harming your child.

    Also, Surviva's points 1) and 2) are also great examples. Though instead of authority in general in 1), id change it to be about people that use fear (bowing down to future bullies, for instance).

    It is also possible im completely misinterpreting you, and we're only talking about the extreme defiance examples here where all other methods fail. I honestly dont know what id do in that situation, but im hard pressed to resort to this method which, though it can be effective, will not always be effective.
  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    This actually sounds pretty cruel to me. I don't think you should make a child associate certain behavior with the fear of being embarassed and left alone.
    Not sure that's what it is. All she really did was treat him like he is a person. The parents' rules on why he cant eat in the living room are simply confusing him. He thinks he should be able to be a part of the family, to be like his parents; he wants to try to do what he should, but his parents don't realize that when they make a blanket rule that causes more problems than it solves. So when she put him in the room with food, she told him that she cares about HIM, not about dumb rules he doesn't understand that keep him from being what he wants. It also showed him that not only does he not need to make trouble with her, but he actually doesn't want to because he doesn't want to give her a reason to treat him poorly, and he knows she knows he's considered a trouble child because she had him watch the others play for a while.

    She basically made him see that she's not going to hurt him and she treats him with care and reason but also demonstrates that he needs to reciprocate

    Children are not hard to handle. Irrational and uneducated parents are incorrigible

    The fact that a single punishment (supposedly) corrected the behavior of the child also indicates that the punishment was likely too extreme.
    The fact that he didn't simply ignore her says it's not too extreme.

    It's an example of appealing to the child's mind and emotions, which is good. Children who need discipline develop that need due to other factors like being confused by how they're treated.

    My sister and her husband's story about their 11 year old niece is that they have to spank her and it does nothing because it just makes her more angry and fight even more. But the truth is that she's a very emotionally stable kid whose parents confuse her too much with their bad parenting.

    Their are only two reasons my 6 year old niece has been unruly: 1) confusion and emotional destruction due to things like her parents fighting and her being yelled at, and 2) being taught that if she protests, she gets her way.

    I have no problem whatsoever with my nieces because I treat them fairly, reasonably, with care, and like people who deserve respect but also must earn respect.

    What most people don't consider is that inflicting (very mild) pain is a natural way to teach correct behavior to a child. That's how kids learn how to do things safely.
    That's not spanking. That could be some kinds of swatting. Emotions reign supreme in humans, and being hurt by another human, especially a close one, is way different than something like a stove. Also, the human brain is wired in such a way that the reasons emotions can provide pleasure or pain is that abstractions are cross-wired with primitive sensations. That's why verbal abuse is just as bad as physical abuse and why simple ideas can cause the same problems as physical stimuli
  47. #47
    Kids are like little human dogs. Sometimes they need a fucking smack. Not a punch in the face or a kick in the shins, a smack on the arse. That's how you teach someone you can't reason with that their behaviour is unacceptable. When they're old enough to understand "no sweets", then fine, stop smacking them and punish them by not giving them treats. But smacking a child should be in every parent's arsenal, in my opinion, because if a child does not fear his parents, why should he respect them? A misbehaving child does not respect someone for taking the moral high ground and behaving in a calm and collected manner, a child respects fear. Whether that's fear of getting a smack, or fear of not getting sweets, whatever it takes to teach the child the difference between right and wrong.

    Of course, smacking a child for disturbing you while you try to watch TV, shit like that is unacceptable. But shoplifting, bullying his brother, hurting the cat, throwing food on the floor... when a child is naughty, not annoying.

    Let me ask those who voted no here...

    Do you smack the dog when it shits on the carpet?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  48. #48
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    @Ong: Dogs and most other animals actually have a large amount of difficulty in understanding how pain relates to their actions. This is in sharp contrast with their relative ease in understanding positive correlations like dinner noises = food.

    Dog Discipline – Hit, Spank, Slap!

    I imagine its similar to how young children learn. I know that harsh examples of pain/fear are known to result in adulthood trauma/psychological issues...but as far as i know there arent studies showing links to minor cases.
    Last edited by JKDS; 11-27-2012 at 11:30 PM.
  49. #49
    Any human who has reached "spanking age" has achieved substantially greater cognitive function than any dog that has ever existed

    If you train your dog by using pain, it causes other problems with the dog. If you train your child by using pain, it causes exponentially more problems than it does with the dog
  50. #50
    Dogs know they're being punished. You smack a dog for shitting on the carpet, sooner or later he starts to understand why you're smacking him. The learning curve will be even quicker if you reward the dog for shitting outside.

    It's not about pain. I was looking after a rottweiler a couple of years back, I had to give him a smack because he was howling all fucking night and disturbing the neighbours. Do I think I actually caused the dog pain when I smacked it? He was a big fucking dog. No, it didn't hurt. But he was afraid. I was rather glad he was afraid, because if he turned on me I'd have been afraid.

    Fear is more effective than pain.

    Can't remember the film, but it had Steven Seagal in it, and it was awful. But there was this quote, which I remember well...
    "anticipation of death is worse than death itself".

    Even as a kid I thought that was true.
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  51. #51
    If you train your child by using pain, it causes exponentially more problems than it does with the dog
    Honestly wuf, I think this is hippy bollocks. I got smacked when I was naughty, and I am 33 now and haven't had a fight since I was 16. Smacking a child teaches him to behave, not to be a violent little shit. I can't think that any single one of my problems in my life stems back to me getting smacked.
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  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    Of course, once you've gone through all that heavy lifting of bringing the kid to that level of understanding as you sincerely claim that you do, it seems like it's easy from there and the spanking would no longer be necessary.
    Do you ever exceed the legal speed limit while driving? Ever ran a red light? Maybe downplayed your income on tax forms?

    We adults know what's right and wrong but we don't always follow guidelines, do we? Same goes for kids and they sure don't feel bad as a rule when they knowingly break the rules, even when they are fully aware of the reasons why they are set.

    But you are right, I don't remember the last time I had to physically punish any of my kids. The threat is still there and they know it, just like we adults know about fines, courtrooms and prisons.


  53. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Also, Surviva's points 1) and 2) are also great examples. Though instead of authority in general in 1), id change it to be about people that use fear (bowing down to future bullies, for instance).
    I was paraphrasing what the studies say, and it seems to revolve around the logic of how kids develop morally. Authoritarian parenting is a specific terminology in psychology that I was referring to, and a key aspect of it is the "because I said so." I don't know if I did a good job of fleshing out how it's the logic of the spank that is arguably the most damaging (you shouldn't do something because it will result in a larger person spanking you; this isn't a very useful nugget of information in the real world).

    So I was saying that people who are spanked often either latch onto this "because {so and so authority} said so" and are at risk of being the next Hitler youth, or they find out that the internet isn't the devil, so (shocker) daddy wasn't always right so F THE POLICE! Regardless, the problem seems to be fundamental moral development. It has nothing to do with the actual logic and real-world repercussions of actions and shit. It's either because people are saying to do it and people are either always right or they are always wrong.

    This isn't mutually exclusive with your point, but just clarifying why I was specifically pointing out authoritarians. I haven't seen much on the fear and response to brutality and all that stuff (at least not in cases where it's just a spank on the bum), but then again it's been many many moons since I dropped out of the Psychology department.
  54. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Dogs know they're being punished. You smack a dog for shitting on the carpet, sooner or later he starts to understand why you're smacking him. The learning curve will be even quicker if you reward the dog for shitting outside.

    It's not about pain. I was looking after a rottweiler a couple of years back, I had to give him a smack because he was howling all fucking night and disturbing the neighbours. Do I think I actually caused the dog pain when I smacked it? He was a big fucking dog. No, it didn't hurt. But he was afraid. I was rather glad he was afraid, because if he turned on me I'd have been afraid.

    Fear is more effective than pain.

    Can't remember the film, but it had Steven Seagal in it, and it was awful. But there was this quote, which I remember well...
    "anticipation of death is worse than death itself".

    Even as a kid I thought that was true.
    When I was young, we trained our dachshund to not shit inside by grinding her nose in it and yelling at her. None of us realized that she also never came when we called because of this. Hell, for all we know, the problems of loyalty we had with her the last several years of her life may have been related to the weird ways the brain connects neurons by seemingly unrelated things. Maybe there was a part of her that always knew we hurt her and that part aided her subconsciously when she decided to spend more time at other peoples houses than ours

    So yeah, use pain and fear to train somebody and you will find unintended consequences




    Here, I'll end the thread now: religious fanatics believe in spanking.

    According to the Rules of Logic 101, if you agree with fanatics on controversial issues, you're wrong. It kinda is that simple, even if you still can't make sense of why. Honestly there is no better argument than this. Without this logic, I would be somewhat on the fence with the issue. But the logic never ever ever fails. It is not possible to find any controversial issue fanatics support that isn't false. Go ahead and try to find one
  55. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Honestly wuf, I think this is hippy bollocks. I got smacked when I was naughty, and I am 33 now and haven't had a fight since I was 16. Smacking a child teaches him to behave, not to be a violent little shit. I can't think that any single one of my problems in my life stems back to me getting smacked.
    I didn't say smacked. There is a huge difference between repetitive and ritualized spanking with some kinds of momentary smacking. The former is actually somewhat sociopathic and is never seen in the wild. Given that humans are not really much different than other mammals....

    A smack can tell a kid "don't do that", but spankings tell a kid all sorts of crazy things like "you will now be methodically beaten because of what you've done". It actually makes the parents seem stupid because instead of a momentary correction with a clear signal, it's a reasoned and controlled response of extended and extreme punishment to a problem. It can cause the simplest of problems like "my dad thought about it and decided that hitting was best, so I can too"
  56. #56
    lol what a dumb argument. Fanatics think it's right, therefore it's wrong.

    Some religious fanatics believe organic food is healthier than processed food. Are they wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  57. #57
    A smack and a spank are the same thing here.

    Sure, sustained smacking is going to do more harm than good, I'm not arguing that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  58. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    lol what a dumb argument. Fanatics think it's right, therefore it's wrong.

    Some religious fanatics believe organic food is healthier than processed food. Are they wrong?
    You did not read what I said. Note the word "controversial"
  59. #59
    I'm grunching a bit here, but how do you all feel about physical punishment that doesn't involve directly inflicting the pain. For example, making the kid do push-ups, or a wall sit, etc?
  60. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    A smack and a spank are the same thing here.
    The connotation is entirely different. When you use the word "spank" with kids it means a deliberate and repeated process.
  61. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You did not read what I said. Note the word "controversial"
    Ok fair enough, but you can't just apply a blanket statement like that to a controversial topic and expect it to just "end the thread". It's bollocks. I'm sure some religious fanatic somewhere believes one thing and another religious fanatic somewhere believes the opposite. Pick any controversial subject. There will be conflicting opinions. And of course it assumes you can just define "fanatic" like you can define "liquid".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  62. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I'm grunching a bit here, but how do you all feel about physical punishment that doesn't involve directly inflicting the pain. For example, making the kid do push-ups, or a wall sit, etc?
    No idea. Could be anywhere from benign to fantastic as long as it isn't to too much of a strain point. There are several reasons it could be of benefit. I would probably not do it though. The type of thing I'd do is change the milieu by making a game out of it or something. It's kinda like how you don't tell your gf she's fat and needs to go to the gym, you set an example by going to the gym yourself and making sure she's aware of how awesome it is and how much you'd like her to join you.

    It's curious that when we think of misbehaving children we think they should be punished instead of examining ourselves and how we have taught them to misbehave. A child isn't cognitively that far removed from a grown adult, and we all know that the behavior we have isn't based in fear and pain.

    Kids want to be good, just gotta give them what it takes.
  63. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Ok fair enough, but you can't just apply a blanket statement like that to a controversial topic and expect it to just "end the thread". It's bollocks. I'm sure some religious fanatic somewhere believes one thing and another religious fanatic somewhere believes the opposite. Pick any controversial subject. There will be conflicting opinions. And of course it assumes you can just define "fanatic" like you can define "liquid".
    Find me a controversial subject that swaths of fanatics support that has any basis in science and logic

    Also fanatic isn't that hard to define. Maybe fundamentalist works better. It's all the same
  64. #64
    It's curious that when we think of misbehaving children we think they should be punished instead of examining ourselves and how we have taught them to misbehave.
    I don't think this is true. I think balance is the key. It's not just about punishing bad behaviour, you also reward good behaviour. And I can't imagine smacking a child without reflecting upon what I might have done wrong that brought it to this stage.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  65. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    That's how you teach someone you can't reason with that their behaviour is unacceptable. When they're old enough to understand "no sweets", then fine, stop smacking them and punish them by not giving them treats. But smacking a child should be in every parent's arsenal, in my opinion, because if a child does not fear his parents, why should he respect them? A misbehaving child does not respect someone for taking the moral high ground and behaving in a calm and collected manner, a child respects fear. Whether that's fear of getting a smack, or fear of not getting sweets, whatever it takes to teach the child the difference between right and wrong.
    Do you have any way of demonstrating any of this? Even if I granted you that this is basic logic that bears out in theory (which I don't), then there is the problem that this doesn't bear out in the real world. Children tend to respect their parents just fine when they find other ways of disciplining them; children show signs of being more receptive to reasoning than traditionalists give them credit for; fear doesn't seem to have positive long term effects on conceptions of right and wrong because being afraid of being punished isn't a moral compass.

    These are all observed realities. Even if the observance is arguably flawed, it CERTAINLY doesn't seem to be bearing out all the claims you're making.
  66. #66
    Find me a controversial subject that swaths of fanatics support that has any basis in science and logic
    I can't be bothered. It's a ridiculous point.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Do you agree that positive reinforcement is an effective teaching tool? If so, why should any punishments you administer outside of this involve fear of injury or actual injury (minor or not)?
    Fear of injury, what are you talking about?


    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    I am not arguing that pain isnt effective motivation in the short run. Certainly, touching a hot stove will give you pause when you go to touch it again. However, I find it hard to believe that everyone, on even just this forum, learned that concept by actually touching the stove.
    We did learn to fear heat by touching something hot, not by listening to someone tell us that our skin tissue can't receive the kinetic energy of rapidly moving molecules in hot material without suffering damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Back to your argument, it is clear that other methods of parenting that dont involve fearing the parent have had some success. One point you bring up is that these methods dont work as well, and I have to disagree on that point. If you fuck up using a method alternative to having the child fear you, you just try again. If you fuck up using the fear/pain method though, you've succeeded in harming your child..
    Alternative punishments can harm your child as well. Being inconsistent with punishments might not set clear boundaries and could lead to confusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    It is also possible im completely misinterpreting you, and we're only talking about the extreme defiance examples here where all other methods fail. I honestly dont know what id do in that situation, but im hard pressed to resort to this method which, though it can be effective, will not always be effective.
    When your kids know that the ultimate punishment can be painful they won't break the important rules (for instance: don't throw down objects from the second floor, don't sit on your little sisters head, don't run away in the store etc.). If they do, it's very likely that they didn't understand that they broke the rules and hence don't deserve to be punished. It's def not something you need to do many times per year.

    Everything totally depends on the personality of your child.


  68. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Do you ever exceed the legal speed limit while driving? Ever ran a red light? Maybe downplayed your income on tax forms?

    We adults know what's right and wrong but we don't always follow guidelines, do we? Same goes for kids and they sure don't feel bad as a rule when they knowingly break the rules, even when they are fully aware of the reasons why they are set.

    But you are right, I don't remember the last time I had to physically punish any of my kids. The threat is still there and they know it, just like we adults know about fines, courtrooms and prisons.
    In my point, I just meant that it SEEMS that it would be easy to go from understanding of having done something wrong to non-physical disciplining. I didn't mean that understanding that they did something wrong was sufficient in itself, only that it easily leant to more disciplining. But it's a point I'm not gonna spend much time defending because I'm well into the realm of having no fucking clue what I'm talking about at that point.
  69. #69
    Is it relevant that every single thing I've seen my nieces do has been a nothing other than mimicry of their mother, grandmothers, and mother's best friend
  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I'm grunching a bit here, but how do you all feel about physical punishment that doesn't involve directly inflicting the pain. For example, making the kid do push-ups, or a wall sit, etc?
    I'm curious, how do you make your child do push-ups? You will need to threaten with something else for sure.


  71. #71
    surviva... it's my opinion, based on my experience. Maybe I respect fear because it was what I was taught when I was naughty. Maybe I could've learned respect another way. But I didn't. So maybe my opinion is flawed. But it's based on my reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  72. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I can't be bothered. It's a ridiculous point.
    On the contrary, your assertion that you can't disprove it demonstrates it's not a ridiculous point.

    Find one example. Just one. You can't do it because when fundamentalists believe controversial things it is ALWAYS in contrast to the non-fundamentalist stance which is definitively based in the known data and logic
  73. #73
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    Ong is older than 16??


    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
  74. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Galapogos View Post
    Ong is older than 16??
    he's still 16 in girl years
  75. #75
    I've given my children a smack on the butt for being naughty several times over the years. My general thoughts are that there's nearly always a better way to deal with a situation than physical punishment, so I usually feel terrible for even a mild smack. I much prefer the naughty step as it works so ridiculously well, especially if you do it how supernanny says to.

    Also, the other day there was a lady behind us at the supermarket who's kid was bawling because she wasn't allowed sweets. Not throwing herself on the floor or anything, just crying really loud. I heard the mother affirm to the child that she still would not be getting sweets and I thought to myself 'good for you', but within minutes she had relented and the child was allowed to get sweets. It looks like the lesson for the child was 'if you bawl loud enough, you will get what you want'. Bad mummy.
    Congratulations, you've won your dick's weight in sweets! Decode the message in the above post to find out how to claim your tic-tac

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