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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #30976
    Pure gold. Jungleman vs. Galfond, nosebleed stakes.

    Jungle cracks me up...


    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  2. #30977
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I like that Jungleman is all..."I can have all kinds of shit here"

    cut to Galfond with the math spinning around his head.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  3. #30978
    I'm sorry but I have an instant dislike for anyone who gets massages at the poker table from floozies. Jungle is guilty of this.

    I don't like people who eat at the poker table either. A bag of peanuts is ok, but a meal, sit out and show some respect, you fucking slob. Haven't seen Jungle do this though.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #30979
    My favourite line is Jungleman in his evil villain voice, something like "Ok Mr. Falcons, you make me sick with all of your doing the right thing and being nice to everybody. It's time to bluff you now."

    The level these guys are playing at though just blows my mind. Like "ok I have a five of clubs in my hand so I should bluff." Huh?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  5. #30980
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm sorry but I have an instant dislike for anyone who gets massages at the poker table from floozies. Jungle is guilty of this.
    I'm mostly jealous I can't afford to get floozy massages. Other than that, I have no problem with it. He can get a blowjob at the table for all I care.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't like people who eat at the poker table either. A bag of peanuts is ok, but a meal, sit out and show some respect, you fucking slob. Haven't seen Jungle do this though.
    I mean I get it if they're playing for 15 hours straight or whatever, but on the recent HU matches that Hellmuth was in, the games lasted about an hour and every game he'd pull out a big sarnie and take giant bites out of it. It was funny to watch but if I was at the table I'd be pretty grossed out.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  6. #30981
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Helmuth is a special egg. He's actually amazing at the kinds of poker he plays. His record does speak for itself as to his skill.

    His personality at the table leaves some wanting, but the same people who criticize him harshest over his table behavior will in the same breath tell you he's the nicest guy with the biggest heart away from the tables. So...

    It's part of his whole schtick that does win him lots of tournaments. His blow ups may have been just hot-headed impetuousness at first, but after decades of not only doing it, but being confronted by pros about how they think it's stupid and childish. The guy's not a genius, but he's not stupid, either. Rather a normal intelligence type of guy. He's thought about his shenanigans and the pros and cons of using them by now. And if he's got a punk edge to him that likes the not follow the expected rules, that's fine. If it makes him feel good and it throws other players off their game, it's a huge win for him.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  7. #30982
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    But dear god, please no BJ's at the tables. The cards and chips are filthy enough without adding all that nastiness into the mix.

    Plus, no one wants to see your O-face.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  8. #30983
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    I'm mostly jealous I can't afford to get floozy massages. Other than that, I have no problem with it. He can get a blowjob at the table for all I care.
    If I could afford floozies there would be several on the rail and my massages would happen in my hotel room.

    I'm not jealous, I just think it's classless.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #30984
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm sorry but I have an instant dislike for anyone who gets massages at the poker table from floozies. Jungle is guilty of this.

    I don't like people who eat at the poker table either. A bag of peanuts is ok, but a meal, sit out and show some respect, you fucking slob. Haven't seen Jungle do this though.
    I'm with you on the eating. Not bothered about the massage. The odd time I've played live for hours on consecutive days, I definitely could have done with a massage.

    I'm also a big fan of Jungle. He's world class at poker and also a bit of a character, rather than the silent GTO bots.
  10. #30985
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Helmuth is a special egg. He's actually amazing at the kinds of poker he plays. His record does speak for itself as to his skill.

    His personality at the table leaves some wanting, but the same people who criticize him harshest over his table behavior will in the same breath tell you he's the nicest guy with the biggest heart away from the tables. So...

    It's part of his whole schtick that does win him lots of tournaments. His blow ups may have been just hot-headed impetuousness at first, but after decades of not only doing it, but being confronted by pros about how they think it's stupid and childish. The guy's not a genius, but he's not stupid, either. Rather a normal intelligence type of guy. He's thought about his shenanigans and the pros and cons of using them by now. And if he's got a punk edge to him that likes the not follow the expected rules, that's fine. If it makes him feel good and it throws other players off their game, it's a huge win for him.
    Huge whale at cash, very effective at tournaments, especially when the fields are big and filled with recs.

    His tantrums are always fun to watch.
  11. #30986
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    RIP Doyle

    you legend
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  12. #30987
    Class act and somebody that figured out a ton of things before anybody else. Super System changed the way people played the game amd still able to compete to ahigh standard in his eighties. I'd love to watch a documentary about his life.
  13. #30988
    He was amazing, and seemed like a genuinely nice guy on top of it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  14. #30989
    So my energy company seems to be using RNG to decide when to send me my bills. Sometimes it's after 3 months (the usual, what you'd expect), sometimes longer like 4-5 months, sometimes closer to 2 months, but I always just figured ok, whatever.

    Until today when they sent me a bill for £10, which must be about 3 days worth. I really wonder wtf they're smoking. I'd call them and ask them, but I don't want to sit on hold for an hour over a £10 bill, so I'll just pay it I guess.




    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  15. #30990
    Sounds like you are with NPower, British Gas or EON. In any case, it should be obvious from your bill what period and usage you are paying for. Normally when you get a bill for a few days, it's to reflect an actual meter reading. Easiest way to have all of that taken care of is to install a smart meter.

    On a related note, my energy bills have been crazy this winter. Easily an extra £125 per month compared to 1-2 years ago.
  16. #30991
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    Sounds like you are with NPower, British Gas or EON. In any case, it should be obvious from your bill what period and usage you are paying for. Normally when you get a bill for a few days, it's to reflect an actual meter reading. Easiest way to have all of that taken care of is to install a smart meter.
    It's BG.

    The email says "Your May-May energy bill is now ready, please pay by May 31." My last bill was "Feb-May," so who knows...

    My question for them would be why bother me with it, why not just tack it onto the August bill (or June or July or September depending on when they decide to send another one)? Do they really need the £10 that badly? I mean I could understand if it was a significant amt of money, but a tenner? C'mon.

    And I already have a smart meter so it's not that. I don't know wtf they're doing.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    On a related note, my energy bills have been crazy this winter. Easily an extra £125 per month compared to 1-2 years ago.
    I lucked out with the subsidies as I live alone in a house with good insulation and so don't use that much to begin with. But I still got the same amt back as everyone else. Which obviously I'm paying for with higher taxes, but I suspect I lost less than most people on the deal.

    Would not want to live in a drafty Victorian house with three kids right now though, that's for sure.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  17. #30992
    It's ok, summer's here, those drafty Victorian houses are nice to live in again.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  18. #30993
    BG is notoriously terrible at data and IT. I've twice called them when moving into a new place and been told the account isn't with them, despite there being several bill reminders from them in the mailbox.

    I've got a smart meter but do get bills for short periods when I submit a formal reading every now and then.

    Working from home is a lot more expensive now. I get £50 taxable benefit per month from my employer, but that doesn't cover the heating being on an extra hour or two per day during the winter and the cost of running a laptop and extra screen. At least I'm saving about four grand in rail fares...
  19. #30994
    Got flashed by a 20-something at the park today. Good times.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  20. #30995
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Got flashed by a 20-something at the park today. Good times.
    What did you say to them? Did you report it? As we've been reading recently, that kind of thing can be the starting point for other things.
  21. #30996
    Shout out to Monkey for sending me an ornament of the St Louis arch. I like it a lot and it led to a good conversation with Mrs Bean about the famous court cases related to US civil rights. Thank you very much!

    Did you enjoy the rest of your trip?
  22. #30997
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    What did you say to them? Did you report it? As we've been reading recently, that kind of thing can be the starting point for other things.
    It wasn't a blatant in your face thing, more of an "accidentally on purpose" thing.

    I was at a pond, my dog was swimming in it, and between him and me was this girl and her bf. She did a headstand and her shirt fell down and exposed her boobies. I looked away as soon as it happened, but I'd already gotten an eyeful. Just left after that, it was a bit too weird.

    It didn't occur to me that I should mind though, or report her. What do you mean 'starting point for other things?'
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  23. #30998
    Quote Originally Posted by bean
    Shout out to Monkey for sending me an ornament of the St Louis arch.
    I overheard Mojo saying to the lady at the post office "second class will do". It didn't occur to me at the time but that's possibly the most British thing I heard him say, and he even said aluminium properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #30999
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    It wasn't a blatant in your face thing, more of an "accidentally on purpose" thing.

    I was at a pond, my dog was swimming in it, and between him and me was this girl and her bf. She did a headstand and her shirt fell down and exposed her boobies. I looked away as soon as it happened, but I'd already gotten an eyeful. Just left after that, it was a bit too weird.

    It didn't occur to me that I should mind though, or report her. What do you mean 'starting point for other things?'
    Ah, the good kind of flashing. I thought you meant the local weirdo in a trench coat. I was referring to the Sarah Everard killer, whose flashing incidents were not properly dealt with.
  25. #31000
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I overheard Mojo saying to the lady at the post office "second class will do". It didn't occur to me at the time but that's possibly the most British thing I heard him say, and he even said aluminium properly.
    Haha. "That'll do" is right up there on the British approach to life.
  26. #31001
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    Ah, the good kind of flashing. I thought you meant the local weirdo in a trench coat. I was referring to the Sarah Everard killer, whose flashing incidents were not properly dealt with.
    Yeah I wouldn't brush that off if it was a weirdo in a trench coat.

    Do men flash other men? I'd think that'd be a good way to get their ass kicked.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  27. #31002
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    Haha. "That'll do" is right up there on the British approach to life.
    The phrase was perfect but also saving like 10p or whatever to delay postage by a day is a very British thing to do. First class is for when you've left it until the last minute to send a birthday card or your passport application, everything else is second class.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #31003
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Yeah I wouldn't brush that off if it was a weirdo in a trench coat.

    Do men flash other men? I'd think that'd be a good way to get their ass kicked.
    In this day and age it's probably a hate crime to kick the shit out of a flasher. While it's very much illegal to expose yourself in public, naturists and nudists do so all the time without consequence. The difference of course is to those people it's a way of life, while the flasher is deliberately trying to provoke a reaction. It's difficult for law to distinguish between the two.

    Let's put it this way. If you kick shit out of a nudist who offended your eyes, that's definitely going to land you in a lot of trouble. idk about a flasher, just so long as he can't viably use the nudist defence.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #31004
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    In this day and age it's probably a hate crime to kick the shit out of a flasher.
    Goddamn wokey cokeys.

    It's certainly illegal. The shit kicker might get some sympathy from a judge though if it's a clear case of flashing.

    That said, my guess is the average flasher wouldn't be keen on talking to the police. "So let me get this straight Mr. Johnson, you went into the park wearing a trench coat with nothing underneath, and this guy just beat you up for no reason?"



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    While it's very much illegal to expose yourself in public, naturists and nudists do so all the time without consequence. The difference of course is to those people it's a way of life, while the flasher is deliberately trying to provoke a reaction. It's difficult for law to distinguish between the two.
    Don't naturists and nudists have places to go, like nude beaches? I don't think someone can just decide "I'm a nudist so I'm gonna walk around the woods naked," and not face any consequences.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Let's put it this way. If you kick shit out of a nudist who offended your eyes, that's definitely going to land you in a lot of trouble.
    Just for the record, I'm not for kicking the shit out of anyone by default. I wouldn't kick a nudist and a flasher I would just report. Not everyone has my pacific demeanour though, I can easily see a flasher getting his ass kicked.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  30. #31005
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Don't naturists and nudists have places to go, like nude beaches? I don't think someone can just decide "I'm a nudist so I'm gonna walk around the woods naked," and not face any consequences.
    It's not so clear cut. Yes they have places that cater for their lifestyle, but walking around a woods naked isn't going to upset a judge quite like walking the streets of a town within sight of a school. The context of the offence is extremely important. It's still technically illegal to walk naked around woods but if you can demonstrate to a judge that it is indeed a lifestyle, and that should be fairly easy because you'll have a social history, and you can also show that you didn't reasonably anticipate children being present, then you'll at least get leniency (definitely not jail) and might even get away with it altogether because a judge might not see a moral problem. I don't see a moral problem with it. If I see someone naked (with no sexual context or weirdness) and that causes me alarm then I understand that's my problem. Nudity is natural.

    I've seen a big fat naked guy cycling around Brighton before, and I got the impression that wasn't a rare sight in that city.

    Not everyone has my pacific demeanour though, I can easily see a flasher getting his ass kicked.
    It will happen regularly, and I have no sympathy for those who are doing it purely to cause distress for others. If a flasher exposes himself to someone's young daughter, chances are the father will want a word with him. I'd hope the judge shows some leniency, but that would depend on the restraint the father showed while hitting the flasher.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #31006
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Heyo!
    Happy to be home again safe and sound.

    So amazing to finally meet Beans and Ongie in person. London is too big and there's simply too much to see and learn outdoors in 3 days!! We didn't even go into any museums and it was exhausting to try to remember all we'd seen and learned each day.

    A Midsummer Night's Dream at the Globe was fun. It was a modern take on Shakespeare. The jokes were cute. The costumes were great. The acting was ... well I'm no critic, but good enough to entertain me. All in all a great experience.

    The long drives through the countryside were absolutely lovely. Though holy crap I feared for my life a couple times on those skinny fucking roads and the steering wheel is on the wrong side of the car and the car is on the wrong side of me and the traffic is on the wrong side of the road. Harrowing to drive after sundown on the first day of driving. Sorry Ong. Thankfully, there was no additional charge on the rental for that hedge I ... caressed gently. It got easier each day and I could keep to my own lane and navigate roundabouts fair enough by the 3rd day of driving.

    We absolutely luckboxed on the weather. Wonderful partly cloudy skies the entire week aside from a couple minor drizzles to spot the pavements when we were in London. It was cool by my standards but warm by local's standards, so a lovely temperature, too. For reference it'll be 31 C in St Louis tomorrow.

    Allison loved your little town, Ongie. She even said she wants to go back to see all the shops and stuff, so you must've made a good impression on her. I must say... watching the stars come out on that old bridge, with the sound of the water and the broken castle as a backdrop was certainly a highlight of the vacation. Sharing it with you and chatting like old friends is something I hope to never forget.

    Can confirm that McDonalds Chicken McNuggets in the UK are superior to same in the US. Not even close.

    Scotch egg is great. Maybe I just got one from a fancy place, though. The Blue Boar in London. There were hot towels in the bathroom and an attendant. Heh. Oops. Accidentally posh?

    Cider is amazing. WTF America! Get on it.

    UK vacation fail- Crumpets achieved: 0
    Damn. Must go back for crumpets.

    After we left Ongie-shir, we drove up to Barnoldswick, or Barlick as the locals call it, which was also beautiful. We toured Skipton Castle for a couple hours, then we did a canal boat tour before we walked around the shopping district for a while. We found the cutest little nerdy shops and picked up some gifts for our friends and family at home. Also a nice restaurant that just totally hit all of our desires in that moment on that spot. We even found a street vendor selling desserts afterward and it was just all so fantastic.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  32. #31007
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I even ran into Tom Scott of YouTube fame at the airport / car rental spot.

    I recognized him as he walked casually in front of me while waiting for the shuttle to get us from the airport to the car rental lot. I greeted him and he looked at me with that look that means, "Oh dear god should I remember your name?" so I quickly assured him that I was simply a fan of his work and have been for years and all that. He very graciously and politely apologized for being terribly jet lagged and really couldn't maintain a conversation at the moment.

    So I thanked him and politely turned back to Allison so as not to stare or anything. When the van (lorry?) came to pick us up, Tom was going to the same place, and politely volunteered to be the last to get in so as to be the 1 standing passenger. As I moved in front of him, he complimented my backpack, of which he had the same brand and style, maybe a couple years younger. What a nice chap.

    So we get to the car lot, and everyone's getting their luggage and getting out of the van. I was in the back seat, so was last to leave.

    Now... you see... there's a thing about the van that is rather important to my story from here. You see, this special van was modified for this specific purpose and had, inside the van, along the sliding door, about a 4 inch step down. It wasn't a very wide step, and I certainly noticed it upon entering the van, but alas...

    So I pull my luggage off the rack and step back and there's no floor there. But like... 1/4 of my foot caught the top of the step... so I start slowly falling out of the van, but my hands are completely full... and in my panic I look for a direction to rapidly step down and out of the van before I actually lose my balance entirely and fall down.

    Well to my right is the driver of the van, and to my left is Tom Scott. Obviously my brain said, "Do NOT fall on TOM SCOTT!!" and I simply announced to the driver, "I'm falling ... on you." and proceeded to thoroughly body-check the driver. Thankfully, he caught his balance and helped steady me and not even a scratch was delivered to flesh nor property.

    But my pride took a hit.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 05-29-2023 at 02:03 PM.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  33. #31008
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Heyo!
    Happy to be home again safe and sound.

    So amazing to finally meet Beans and Ongie in person. London is too big and there's simply too much to see and learn outdoors in 3 days!! We didn't even go into any museums and it was exhausting to try to remember all we'd seen and learned each day.

    A Midsummer Night's Dream at the Globe was fun. It was a modern take on Shakespeare. The jokes were cute. The costumes were great. The acting was ... well I'm no critic, but good enough to entertain me. All in all a great experience.

    The long drives through the countryside were absolutely lovely. Though holy crap I feared for my life a couple times on those skinny fucking roads and the steering wheel is on the wrong side of the car and the car is on the wrong side of me and the traffic is on the wrong side of the road. Harrowing to drive after sundown on the first day of driving. Sorry Ong. Thankfully, there was no additional charge on the rental for that hedge I ... caressed gently. It got easier each day and I could keep to my own lane and navigate roundabouts fair enough by the 3rd day of driving.

    We absolutely luckboxed on the weather. Wonderful partly cloudy skies the entire week aside from a couple minor drizzles to spot the pavements when we were in London. It was cool by my standards but warm by local's standards, so a lovely temperature, too. For reference it'll be 31 C in St Louis tomorrow.

    Allison loved your little town, Ongie. She even said she wants to go back to see all the shops and stuff, so you must've made a good impression on her. I must say... watching the stars come out on that old bridge, with the sound of the water and the broken castle as a backdrop was certainly a highlight of the vacation. Sharing it with you and chatting like old friends is something I hope to never forget.

    Can confirm that McDonalds Chicken McNuggets in the UK are superior to same in the US. Not even close.

    Scotch egg is great. Maybe I just got one from a fancy place, though. The Blue Boar in London. There were hot towels in the bathroom and an attendant. Heh. Oops. Accidentally posh?

    Cider is amazing. WTF America! Get on it.

    UK vacation fail- Crumpets achieved: 0
    Damn. Must go back for crumpets.

    After we left Ongie-shir, we drove up to Barnoldswick, or Barlick as the locals call it, which was also beautiful. We toured Skipton Castle for a couple hours, then we did a canal boat tour before we walked around the shopping district for a while. We found the cutest little nerdy shops and picked up some gifts for our friends and family at home. Also a nice restaurant that just totally hit all of our desires in that moment on that spot. We even found a street vendor selling desserts afterward and it was just all so fantastic.

    Glad you had a good time Mojo and sorry I wasn't around to meet you. Next time I will show you poopshire!

    I'm totally with you on the English countryside. So lush and varied, and so much prettier than the brown grassy prairies where I grew up. Also with you on the country roads being much narrower here. I've caressed many a hedge in my day (in fact I lost a side mirror once when I was suddenly confronted with a big truck coming the other way and ended up caressing a tree with my mirror).
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  34. #31009
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    We'll almost certainly return to the UK eventually. No fewer than 4 years, though.

    We really loved just about everything about our week in England.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  35. #31010
    You certainly did luckbox into the weather, spring was dragging on and you pretty much flew into England just as we were beginning to transition into summer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Allison loved your little town, Ongie. She even said she wants to go back to see all the shops and stuff, so you must've made a good impression on her. I must say... watching the stars come out on that old bridge, with the sound of the water and the broken castle as a backdrop was certainly a highlight of the vacation. Sharing it with you and chatting like old friends is something I hope to never forget.

    That place with the bridge and the weir, it's called Dinham (spoken like Dinnum) and was the original name for the castle and apparently an old name for the town of Ludlow, it translates to "the palace of princes" which I literally just discovered. Most tourists don't find that spot because it's down the winding steep roads, but you had the privilege of negotiating those lanes in a car instead.

    I'll say it now... there were times I was terrified in the passenger seat of the car. Your spacial awareness on your left was all out of synch, so you were coming real close to parked cars, walls and hedges when getting out of the way of oncoming traffic. Understandable of course, you're used to there being nothing to your left after a few feet. I'm glad that hedge scratch didn't cost you anything, presumably it was just twig residue that came off with a wipe? Anyway I'm sure you're a great driver on American roads and I'd be much less terrified! I'm glad you made it around the country in one piece!

    It was a really nice few days, lovely to meet you after all these years and Allison is lovely too, I'd definitely like to meet up again if you're back in the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  36. #31011
    btw it's grey and cooler now. I just had to close my window, and it's June tomorrow. That window, once I open it for summer it's usually open until late September. So yeah, good timing.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  37. #31012
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'll say it now... there were times I was terrified in the passenger seat of the car. Your spacial awareness on your left was all out of synch, so you were coming real close to parked cars, walls and hedges when getting out of the way of oncoming traffic. Understandable of course, you're used to there being nothing to your left after a few feet.
    That takes guts to rent a car for the whole trip and drive around the country like that. I was pretty discombobulated the first time I drove here. Roundabouts were complete mindfucks. I'd have to stop at the entrance and think 'ok, who am I yielding to, where do I get off, and how am I gonna do that' before I went in just about every time until I got used to them.

    And now when I go home, I get up the first morning and start driving on the left, until I see a car coming the other way, then I'm like 'oh yeah, this is the wrong side of the road here.' lol
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  38. #31013
    Yeah it can't be easy at all. I don't drive but being in France last year there were multiple times I just glanced the wrong way when going to cross a busy intersection, each time I stopped and checked the other way but it was completely unnatural to me. Even if you can flip your mind so you're getting the roads right, remembering that you've got three quarters of a car to your left is still another unnatural thing to have to do. It's not so much that it's a lot to remember, it's more that it takes that split second to remember. It shows how crucial a split second can be when driving. We tickled a bush or two for sure, it's probably down to mojo's good driving rather than sheer luck that we didn't hit a wall or parked car.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #31014
    btw I'd have been a great deal more terrified if I were driving. It was just the occasional moment and it was always getting out of someone's way, a split second decision that requires the conscious mind to overrule the subconscious in order to remember there's much more car on your left than you're used to.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #31015
    Friend of mine came back to the UK from the Middle East a few months back and drove me to the North. I was shit up quite a few times as he drove very close to the left in the middle lane of the motorway. I've had Americans tell me I do the reverse when driving on the right in the US.

    I've just come back from a few days in Paris. Took me a couple of days to adjust to the direction of traffic, then promptly nearly got run over looking the wrong way coming out of St Pancras. Also, fuck every cab driver that doesn't have a child seat (which is all of them). With the train strike yesterday, it was either 200 quid for a hotel or 80 quid for two tickets to my mum and dad's for the night on one of the only train companies operating, which is 80 miles from home.
  41. #31016
    Fortunately I live about as far as it gets in England from a motorway so we didn't have to venture out on one!
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  42. #31017
    Also, fuck every cab driver that doesn't have a child seat (which is all of them).
    On behalf of my best friend who's a taxi driver, may I say fuck every entitled parent with sprogs that need special treatment.

    He does have a child seat in the boot though (he likes to imagine he's getting it out of the boot to make room for the kid, rather than for safety/comfort). Just one though, so if you've got a litter of sprogs you're out of luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #31018
    I turned up for work at 10pm tonight only to find out it's not my shift. So now I'm primed for the night with fuck all to do. Poker it is then.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  44. #31019
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    On behalf of my best friend who's a taxi driver, may I say fuck every entitled parent with sprogs that need special treatment.

    He does have a child seat in the boot though (he likes to imagine he's getting it out of the boot to make room for the kid, rather than for safety/comfort). Just one though, so if you've got a litter of sprogs you're out of luck.
    Your friend is rare for a taxi driver. It would have been an easy 150 quid for any of the taxi drivers sat around doing nothing on Weds (if they just had a child seat). It's pretty standard in Europe for taxis to have a child seat.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I turned up for work at 10pm tonight only to find out it's not my shift. So now I'm primed for the night with fuck all to do. Poker it is then.
    Sky Poker is still soft for anybody based in the UK. £10-£15 per hour is easily doable at 10nl and 20nl. 60% ROI at MTTs up to £11.
  45. #31020
    I've made quite a lot from SkyPoker over the years but it's not easy to get a roll going because it's so wild that variance is huge. It seems to attract British gamblers though, which is great. British people on average are pretty terrible at poker, especially those who bet on football.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  46. #31021
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Awww... I pressed some button and a whole long post just vanished.

    Fuck.

    Everything about driving in the UK was wrong. Where my eye line looks down the road was wrong. All the little things you take for granted that your peripheral vision directs when you glance away from the road were programmed wrong. Every time I wasn't consciously focusing on where my head should be above the road, it would drift off to the left... as my training puts my head on the left of center. That and other trivial things add up to a mentally exhausting experience.

    Thankfully, it got easier each day. Sleeping would do wonders. Resetting the anxiety and allowing some deep learning to happen made each morning of driving feel much better than the prior day.

    I was terrified driving, too. Especially the first day, which is when I first met up with you, Ong. Goddamn, the lanes are so skinny and the speed limits just insanely too high on twisty country roads. Not to mention the fact that in the towns, cars are always parked on the sidewalks on both sides of the streets, leaving barely a lane wide enough for a single car. It was harrowing.

    To your credit, you never showed your fear while I was driving, and I can't thank you enough. I assure you, I was terrified as well, and if you or Allison were expressing your own feelings on it, it would have only added to my anxiety. Love you, man.


    Roundabouts are starting to be a thing in the US, so I was quicker to get on board with them. We don't have multi-lane roundabouts in the US, really, AFAIK, so that was new. My major complaint about roundabouts is that while they are great for cars, they're shit for pedestrians. Trying to cross the street near a roundabout is hard. There's never a stop light to give pedestrians a chance to cross. Eventually, you just pick a time and run, and the cars don't even slow down for you. Sheesh.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  47. #31022
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    To your credit, you never showed your fear while I was driving, and I can't thank you enough. I assure you, I was terrified as well, and if you or Allison were expressing your own feelings on it, it would have only added to my anxiety. Love you, man.
    Well the last thing you want is a panicked passenger, that's just an added stress and distraction. And I had faith that you would get more used to our roads, which you did.

    My major complaint about roundabouts is that while they are great for cars, they're shit for pedestrians.
    Yeah they tend to have pedestrian lights maybe 50 yards down the road. Busy roundabouts are pretty much a no-go area for pedestrians, while single lane ones with not much traffic are much easier to cross when you're naturally checking for cars in the right directions. Cars will slow down if they are forced to, they are legally required to and people in cars don't tend to like hitting people who are walking because it's extremely inconvenient. But sometimes it does kinda feel like you're playing Frogger.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  48. #31023
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    One thing I simply have to share:

    The Olympics museum in Lausanne is worth the entire trip to Switzerland. I don't even really like sports. I'm no good at them, and I don't follow any sports teams or anything. The entire suggestion to go to the Olympic Museum felt like a big WTF to me.

    So it's no light comment coming from me that this museum is the best I've ever seen. It could have been about the history of bread and I'd be this excited about it. The museum itself was perfect. The layout, the pace, the visuals, the interactivity, every bit flowed perfectly into the next. I didn't realize at the time how much about the museum was just perfectly intuitive until a couple days later when I was reflecting on the experience and comparing notes with my partner.

    She noticed a lot of little things I'd missed... like the fact that there were appropriately located seating locations that were themselves interactive exhibits. They literally gave you reasons and excuses to sit down for a bit and rest your feet... all so subtly that it didn't feel like a rest, but just a continuous part of the exploration.

    And it did feel like an exploration... the rooms were just big enough to spend a good 15 - 20 minutes in to explore all the things... but the rooms were also arranged in a linear manner such that you, as if by accident, did all the things in the museum without ever having to backtrack to choose a different branching path. There was only 1 real path through the museum, but it was meandering and casual while fully informative and often inspiring stories were there to be taken in.

    Truly a masterpiece and prime example of how a museum should be organized and built. It was definitely an experience to have that thrilled me in many unexpected ways.

    Def. put this on your bucket list, IMO. The local area in walking distance of the museum is lovely. Lakeside walks with the Alps in the background with restaurants and shops along the street facing the lake. People and families were out everywhere, with picnic blankets and little picnic games going on. Boats out on the lake showing people enjoying themselves out there as well. All in all a lovely place to spend a half day or more.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  49. #31024
    Damn. I just watch these and think "why would you go that?" I get that whole 'some is good so lots is better' logic, but really you just have to be a retard to go OTT like this.


    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  50. #31025
    I'm going to Chicago Cubs against St Louis Cardinals in London on Saturday. Apparently there will be Chicago- and St Louis-style food available. @Monkey - what is that likely to be please? Just figuring out if I should eat that or get some street food somewhere else
  51. #31026
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Heh. I heard about that.

    St Louis style pizza is not good. The crust is a thin cracker, and the cheese is fake processed cheese that tastes like processed cheese. Thankfully, it's cut in small squares instead normal pie wedges, so if you have the chance to try just one slice for the experience, maybe go for it.

    Chicago style pizza is good. Chicago pizza is a very deep dish pizza that's going to be a few cm tall and plenty of sauce and toppings. It's a lot more food than your average pizza. Like 2 slices is a full meal. Worth trying.


    Actually good St Louis foods:

    Toasted Ravioli is breaded ravioli, either baked or fried. Served with marinara dipping sauce. It's great. Try it unless you hate ravioli.

    St Louis style ribs are dry rubbed for seasoning, and served dry. You're expected to add BBQ sauce, but to each their own. The meat should be so tender and juicy it slides right off the bones and just melts in your mouth. If you like pork, try these.

    Gooey Butter Cake absolutely lives up to its name. It's a soft gooey cake that is very sweet with a strong buttery flavor.

    Frozen Custard is like a cross between ice cream and crème brûlée. Delicious and very popular on a hot summer day. Served in any way you'd serve ice cream.


    Typical stadium foods include nachos, hot dogs, hamburgers, beer, soda, water, ice cream, candies.
    Stadium food is expected to be unhealthy and overpriced and if it tastes good, that's more a perk than the expectation.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  52. #31027
    Wow, that's way more than I was expecting and it definitely had me salivating. Thanks!
  53. #31028
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  54. #31029
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  55. #31030
    I could do that problem but why would I?

    Replace the cats with dogs and I'd consider it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  56. #31031
    It all cancels out, the answer is zero.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  57. #31032
    They're saying warmest June on record for UK, which really doesn't do much to quell my skepticism. It's been nice but record breaking? Really? That seemed like a slightly above average June to me. And that comes off the back of a cool spring, so it should feel warmer than it is. It's also pretty fresh out there right now, certainly not high summer.

    1995 was hotter, I'm sure of it. That was a relentless summer, May to September, pretty much constant blue skies. Maybe that felt warmer than it was because it was constantly sunny but that summer still sets the bar for me, save for the 4-day heatwaves we occasionally get giving us brutal heat.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  58. #31033
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    They're saying warmest June on record for UK, which really doesn't do much to quell my skepticism.
    Yeah, why trust experts with things they're experts on? Someone on facebook said the ice sheets are actually getting bigger, I'm going with that.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's also pretty fresh out there right now, certainly not high summer.
    Checks calendar.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    1995 was hotter, I'm sure of it.
    I guess you could look it up but that would require giving credence to scientific data rather than an Ongometer.

    I wasn't here in 1995, but I don't remember too many 30+ degree days in June in past years. Usually it's July or August before it gets that hot.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  59. #31034
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    I wasn't here in 1995, but I don't remember too many 30+ degree days in June in past years. Usually it's July or August before it gets that hot.
    I've know 30 degrees in May, though it's very unusual. It's not so unusual in June to be jaw dropping though. And did we even have any 30 degree days this June? Feels like we maxed out at around 30, which is completely normal for a nice June. The UK record temperature for June is 35.6 degrees, we were definitely nowhere near that last month.

    The record that we've apparently broken is the overall day/night average, at 15.6, up from 14.9. I'm going to suggest one possible explanation for that is urban heat islands. Cities and towns are bigger now than they used to be, with many more people and cars. I really don't know how much this could impact nationwide averages, that's going to depend on where the averages are taken from. I mean, if we have ten night time urban measurements for every one rural, that's going to skew the numbers isn't it? More so if we had 5:1 in the past. I'm pulling number out of my arse here obviously but it's something to consider.

    btw, 1995 is the third hottest summer (daily average) on record for the UK, behind 1976 and 1826. August '95 was the hottest on record. June 28-30th that year was very hot, at 33.8 max. The summer max that year was 35.2 in August. It was a significant enough summer to warrant its own Wikipedia page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_B...sles_heat_wave
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  60. #31035
    Also the idea that the nights are so much warmer than average as to make the day/night average record breaking is weird, seeing as I've had my window closed most of the month. Usually I open it in May and leave it open until September. Not this year.

    I'm out in the countryside, in the coldest county in England/Wales by record. So maybe that is also clouding my judgement. Maybe it actually has been cooler here by night than it has been elsewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  61. #31036
    It is worth noting that not all averages are equal. There are many different ways to get an "average" and they can be wildly different from one another. One way to get a really bad average is the way I described... take ten urban measurements for one rural measurement and take the mean. If the urban measurement is the lowest of them all, then this really is stretching what we understand when we think of an "average". Most people assume the mean is the "best" average but that isn't necessarily the case.

    I don't know what average they're using for June, nor do I know that it's the same average used for previous Junes. I don't see how it can be precisely the same average, seeing as measurements are taken from a large (and probably growing) number of locations, most of which don't remain fixed over long periods of time. And measurements likely become more accurate over time. So how can we reply on it to actually tell us anything factual?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  62. #31037
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It is worth noting that not all averages are equal. There are many different ways to get an "average" and they can be wildly different from one another. One way to get a really bad average is the way I described... take ten urban measurements for one rural measurement and take the mean. If the urban measurement is the lowest of them all, then this really is stretching what we understand when we think of an "average". Most people assume the mean is the "best" average but that isn't necessarily the case.

    I don't know what average they're using for June, nor do I know that it's the same average used for previous Junes. I don't see how it can be precisely the same average, seeing as measurements are taken from a large (and probably growing) number of locations, most of which don't remain fixed over long periods of time. And measurements likely become more accurate over time. So how can we reply on it to actually tell us anything factual?

    It's like you think the meteorologists, the trained scientists who do this for a living, never thought of these things.

    I'm pretty sure they take a range of temperatures from literally hundreds of weather stations around the country. None of these are sitting in a place that would obviously be affected by human activity, like the top of a chimney. They are surely balanced between urban and rural locations, for any measurements across years to be valid.

    The idea that there's noise in the measurements also seems off to me. They're pretty precise instruments, thermometers. You have some mercury in a tube - when it gets hotter it expands and goes up the tube. Been around a very long time. It's not like in 1985 they measured temperature by having some guy sticking his finger in the air and then writing down how hot it felt.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  63. #31038
    My point is, they just say "average" and everyone thinks that we're talking about directly comparable values. We're not.

    If we take the extremes, let's say I take 100 measurements on some random day in June 2022... 9 in Antarctica and 1 in the Sahara desert, and conclude the average global temperature is -35 degrees for that day. Then same date next year I take 9 in the Sahara and 1 in Antarctica and conclude the average global temperature is 40 degrees. There's some serious global warming. Obviously this is nonsense but it's a fair use of the word "average" given the information. So how do we improve? More measurements in more locations. But we can't measure everywhere all the time.

    Measuring the average temperature is rather like measuring a coastline. There's a fractal nature, and it's constantly changing.


    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    ...like the top of a chimney.
    This is an excellent way of saying you don't understand what an urban heat island is.

    The idea that there's noise in the measurements also seems off to me. They're pretty precise instruments, thermometers.
    Do you think the thermometers of 1850 had the same accuracy as the ones we have today? They're pretty damn accurate now, certainly the top grade equipment, but can you say that the records of the 1800s and 1900s are as reliable as today's? If you don't have the same confidence in the accuracy of historical records, then how can you make direct comparisons and draw apocalyptic conclusions from them?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  64. #31039
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    My point is, they just say "average" and I can imagine scenarios where an average is misleading. I have no evidence the scientists in charge have ever done anything like this, but because I can imagine it, therefore I suspect it's true.
    fyp



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If we take the extremes, let's say I take 100 measurements on some random day in June 2022... 9 in Antarctica and 1 in the Sahara desert, and conclude the average global temperature is -35 degrees for that day. Then same date next year I take 9 in the Sahara and 1 in Antarctica and conclude the average global temperature is 40 degrees. There's some serious global warming. Obviously this is nonsense but it's a fair use of the word "average" given the information. So how do we improve? More measurements in more locations. But we can't measure everywhere all the time.
    Yeah, that's not what they do though is it. They're perfectly aware of this problem and actively take steps to avoid it.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is an excellent way of saying you don't understand what an urban heat island is.
    I do know what an urban heat island is. I just give scientists credit for knowing it too, and factoring that into their calculations of average temperature. You, OTOH, seem to think they're too stupid to do that. Or maybe you think every meteorologist and climate scientist in the world is in the pocket of Big Wind.

    When 99% of experts agree on something, it's probably true.

    If you don't believe that, ask the 1% of economic experts who were advising Liz Truss to lower taxes and have unfunded spending how that worked out.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Do you think the thermometers of 1850 had the same accuracy as the ones we have today?
    The proper question to ask is whether they had a systematic bias one way or the other (either to overestimate or underestimate temperature). This is why people who don't understand measurement error and statistics shouldn't be deciding what matters in measurement and what doesn't.

    I don't doubt they have gotten more accurate over 150 years, my point is that:

    1) that improvement in accuracy is miniscule; and

    2) any noise in measurement was random and did not affect average temp calculations.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If you don't have the same confidence in the accuracy of historical records, then how can you make direct comparisons and draw apocalyptic conclusions from them?
    I have confidence that the millions of measurements made between 1850 and now, on average, show an increase in global temperature, and that this increase is real, yes.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  65. #31040
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    There's no simple way to measure the averages, and no single party doing the measurements. For the UK there's the Met Office, but also NASA, NOAA and I'm sure a bunch of others using their own measuring stations and methods. All of these tend to align nicely. I' m sure all of them even say exactly where the measurements are made, by whst methods and how the averages are calculated. But I admit googling those'd be far less fun than assuming global conspiracies.
  66. #31041
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    My point is, they just say "average" and I can imagine scenarios where an average is misleading. I have no evidence the scientists in charge have ever done anything like this, but because I can imagine it, therefore I suspect it's true.

    Fair. Apart from the fact you're slamming down the word "scientists" like that's who I'm suspicious of.

    The scientists takes the measurements, and analyses the data. The scientist doesn't choose how to interpret that data in the public domain. That's the realm of media and those who influence them. We're stepping away from the world of science and into politics. That's where my distrust is. I don't doubt that the vast majority of scientists go about their business with the utmost integrity. But it's not them writing articles that people read. The scientists write papers, which are presumably unbiased, with perhaps presumed or proven conclusions, with a proper approach to caveats and limitations in the approach. Nobody reads papers, people read media articles.

    So at the very least, please don't assume I'm taking a massive shit on scientists when I show political skepticism.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #31042
    The problem you seem to have poop is that "science" is basically an authority to you. Science can be wrong, and the data can be massaged by those who have an agenda, without a single scientist ever doing anything willfully deceptive. So science is not an authority. Mathematics is an authority. You can present maths to stupid people in an attempt to massage the data, but it's like computer code, the information is there. Science isn't code. Science is attempting to understand the code.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  68. #31043
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The problem you seem to have poop is that "science" is basically an authority to you. Science can be wrong, and the data can be massaged by those who have an agenda, without a single scientist ever doing anything willfully deceptive. So science is not an authority. Mathematics is an authority. You can present maths to stupid people in an attempt to massage the data, but it's like computer code, the information is there. Science isn't code. Science is attempting to understand the code.

    Ok, so you've gone from "I don't believe in global warming because the measurements are suspect," to "I don't believe it because the political interpretation of the measurements are suspect."

    If you had just started with the latter, I'd say fine. Except for the fact that politicians have been very reluctant to do anything meaningful about climate change, so it's more like they're resisting the claims of scientists than anything. There might be a few climate-change deniers among politicians, but more typically they accept it's happening but either make excuses for why we can't do more about it, or pretend they are doing something about it, but it's for some reason taking a century instead of a decade or two.

    For example, electric cars have been around for a long time, we could easily all be driving them by now, but we're still mostly driving around in petrol cars belching noxious fumes into the atmosphere. We could all easily be heating our homes with solar, wind, thermal, hydro, etc.. energy but instead we're mostly using gas. Who benefits from this?

    So it's hard to follow your argument because I'm not sure where you're going with it, or where it ends up.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  69. #31044
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Ok, so you've gone from "I don't believe in global warming because the measurements are suspect," to "I don't believe it because the political interpretation of the measurements are suspect."
    No, this is simply your interpretation. Skepticism and denial are synonyms to you.

    I'm showing doubt. That's not the same as saying I believe it's a hoax.

    Except for the fact that politicians have been very reluctant to do anything meaningful about climate change
    They do a lot of talking.

    Let's assume it's real, that we're in a man made warming phase. And for clarity I can see how humans can have the influence, not just with emissions but with deforestation. The idea we're having this effect is not as ludicrous as the idea that a massive building will fall at near freefall speed when hit from the top by a single plane. I digress.

    To actually take action against climate change is to nerf the economy. It's really that simple. That's a huge political problem. You don't want to be seen to be not doing anything, nor do you want to be the person initiating policy that will cause the standard of living for people to decline. So they do a lot of talking without doing anything. They can easily blame China and India while making nominal cuts to emissions, and hope to still get votes. Democracy is a bitch sometimes, it can have the effect of politicians becoming spineless and bowing to misinformed public pressure.

    For example, electric cars have been around for a long time
    Maybe they're too expensive for people to readily invest in. And they're not as green as they like us to think. For a start, mining and processing those rare earth materials is intensive.

    We could all easily be heating our homes with solar, wind, thermal, hydro, etc.. energy but instead we're mostly using gas. Who benefits from this?
    Could we though? We get nearly 20% of our total energy from wind, but when it's not windy enough we use gas. Solar technology isn't where we hoped it would be by now. The UK is not particularly geothermically active, and hydro is a huge engineering project that turns large parts of the countryside into lakes and disrupts nature, and isn't particularly appropriate for a small island with generally small rivers. Hydro currently accounts for 2.8%, I'd be surprised if we can significantly improve on that.

    Wind is probably the most promising, but it's not reliable enough to solve our dependency on alternatives. Nuclear isn't very popular for obvious reasons, and is potentially more environmentally harmful than gas.

    And all this is all very well and good but like I mentioned earlier, there's China and India, who are the two nations on the planet capable of actually making a difference. We can't influence their policies. A convenient scapegoat for the politicians.

    On top of all this, oil and gas is huge business and the people with a vested interest in these sectors are wealthy and powerful enough to influence global geopolitical policy.

    There are too many factors working against a fully renewable future, at least in the immediate future.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  70. #31045
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Skepticism and denial are synonyms to you.
    Reductio ad Ongo.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm showing doubt. That's not the same as saying I believe it's a hoax.
    The problem is all the reasons you provide for your skepticism. None of them are valid so far (which was the point of my previous post), mostly revolving around non-issues like measurement error and some imaginary morally corrupt tree-huggers spinning the facts, but let's see how it develops...




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    To actually take action against climate change is to nerf the economy. It's really that simple.
    And yet they have no problem with nerfing the economy as long as banks and other investors can make a huge profit from it. Or damaging it for some pointless war.

    Not addressing climate change is likely going to nerf the economy a lot more in the long term than building some electric cars and substituting clean energy for oil.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    That's a huge political problem. You don't want to be seen to be not doing anything, nor do you want to be the person initiating policy that will cause the standard of living for people to decline. So they do a lot of talking without doing anything. They can easily blame China and India while making nominal cuts to emissions, and hope to still get votes. Democracy is a bitch sometimes, it can have the effect of politicians becoming spineless and bowing to misinformed public pressure.
    The problem as I see it is short-termism. There is almost certainly a long-term gain to be had by saving the environment, but if it causes short-term pain, then it's harder to do if you're trying to win elections.

    If you want a fun read try Jared Diamond's "Collapse." He explains how overexploitation of natural resources and not adapting to changing conditions has caused several societies over the years to implode. The implication is we're not immune to the same thing happening on a global scale.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And they're not as green as they like us to think.
    As who likes us to think?




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    For a start, mining and processing those rare earth materials is intensive.
    Maybe, but mining and processing oil and gas is also a dirty operation, never mind the damage that happens when you oxidize them.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Could we though? We get nearly 20% of our total energy from wind, but when it's not windy enough we use gas. Solar technology isn't where we hoped it would be by now. The UK is not particularly geothermically active, and hydro is a huge engineering project that turns large parts of the countryside into lakes and disrupts nature, and isn't particularly appropriate for a small island with generally small rivers. Hydro currently accounts for 2.8%, I'd be surprised if we can significantly improve on that.

    Wind is probably the most promising, but it's not reliable enough to solve our dependency on alternatives. Nuclear isn't very popular for obvious reasons, and is potentially more environmentally harmful than gas.
    Every one of these problems could be solved if countries invested money and ingenuity in it. Wind is largely an issue of storage, for example. Solve that and wind alone could run the world.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And all this is all very well and good but like I mentioned earlier, there's China and India, who are the two nations on the planet capable of actually making a difference. We can't influence their policies. A convenient scapegoat for the politicians.
    There's ways to pressure rogue countries to get on board. Economic sanctions, for example. Diplomatic pressure. Of course, it assumes the countries doing the pressuring are themselves on board.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    On top of all this, oil and gas is huge business and the people with a vested interest in these sectors are wealthy and powerful enough to influence global geopolitical policy.
    Well yeah, ldo.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    There are too many factors working against a fully renewable future, at least in the immediate future.
    That's the kind of fatalism that inspires people.

    I believe it was Churchill who said "We could try to fight them on the beaches, but then we'd also have to fight them on the landing grounds, in the skies, and on the seas. I mean mates, it would really be a bitch. Also, we left a lot of our war stuff at Dunkirk and would need to make some more. And we haven't trained that many troops so would need to do that, and shit they got submarines that are going to attack our shipping. So screw that everyone, we'll forever surrender!"


    Basically I see you've gone from skepticism based on nothing, to just saying well even if it is real we can't do anything about it, so it doesn't matter what I believe.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 07-05-2023 at 06:29 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  71. #31046
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    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...uction-per-twh

    If by obvious reasons against nuclear you mean scaremongering and misunderstandings, yes. Nuclear is the way.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  72. #31047
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Reductio ad Ongo.
    You most certainly give the impression that you can't see a distinction between skepticism and denial. Maybe skepticism to you is to just think "that's weird" but not say anything. Is the act of speaking out what makes it denial?

    The reason I'm skeptical is because climate change is so politically driven, it's presented in the media as "you must think this" and "you're stupid if you disagree", "99% of scientists agree", "you're a right wing nutter if you don't agree", it's a massive appeal to the authority of science without there appearing to be a proper scientific approach to this mater, at least in the public domain. I mean, stuff like "heatwaves are twice as likely due to climate change", that's not science, that's someone pulling a number out of their arse and using it in media articles to influence the way people think. It's politics.


    And yet they have no problem with nerfing the economy as long as banks and other investors can make a huge profit from it. Or damaging it for some pointless war.
    Yeah well the economy might not be as strong as it could be if it weren't for political incompetence and/or corruption, that's a whole different story, but I'm not talking about nerfing in the sense of making people a little bit poorer but still managing to keep the country at a relatively high standard. I'm talking about a serious decline in the standard of living. That's what happens if we completely abandon oil and gas too soon. Unfortunately oil is the prime reason we have a high standard of living.

    Not addressing climate change is likely going to nerf the economy a lot more in the long term than building some electric cars and substituting clean energy for oil.
    That's a matter of opinion. The single most important thing in an economy is energy. It's not like cars are the biggest energy demand humans have. Nowhere near. So even if we went fully electric, it's a drop in the ocean and might not even be reducing our carbon footprint because making a car uses a great deal more energy than running it, and electric cars use rarer materials.

    There is almost certainly a long-term gain to be had by saving the environment...
    Nobody has the power to "save the environment". No political party does either. You can be seen to be on the right side of history, that's a powerful motivator for some, but politicians are generally mostly motivated by votes. And if people won't vote for a politician who will actually screw over businesses and people in order to "save the environment", then is it really fair to blame the politician for inaction? Blame the people for not wanting to live in the third world. It's not even important if that's what really happens, people just need to think it happens, to be afraid of a much lower standard of living, and they'll vote for people who will keep that standard of living acceptable.

    As who likes us to think?
    Those who sell them, and those who want to present them as a cure to our carbon problems.

    Trading your car in for another one that uses a different fuel isn't that great of a solution. Better would be to use public transport. If you're going to push for massive social change, why not just go for a modern public transport system that is significantly cheaper for the commuter than using a car, and ban all cars from the roads in the cities? Replacing cars with more cars seems wasteful.

    Maybe, but mining and processing oil and gas is also a dirty operation, never mind the damage that happens when you oxidize them.
    True, both industries are filthy as fuck. But it's important to be aware of the carbon footprint of production. How much of an impact do we actually have by not using petrol at the very end of the process?

    One figure I found which is interesting is electric cars are thought be to 25% cleaner than petrol/diesel in Poland, which uses a lot of coal for its energy, so that's assumed to be the poorest western performer. Up to 75% in the UK, since we use so much wind. That's great. But how does that compare to not replacing your car and just keeping your old one? By changing car you're increasing the demand for more cars.

    Every one of these problems could be solved if countries invested money and ingenuity in it. Wind is largely an issue of storage, for example. Solve that and wind alone could run the world.
    Maybe, but if all of our energy comes from wind, won't this have an impact on the climate? We're literally taking energy directly out of the atmosphere.

    Direct solar energy seems the most promising, from an environmental pov. You're using energy that would either be absorbed by the ground or reflected back into space.

    There's ways to pressure rogue countries to get on board. Economic sanctions, for example.
    This only works if the country issuing the sanctions is a powerful global financial player. The USA very much is, and has been for a century or so, which is why sanctions have had an impact on policy making around the world, but that tide is turning I'm afraid. USA is no longer the dominant financial power it was. USA sanctioning China will have around the same impact as China sanctioning USA. So there's not really any point in USA doing it other than for show.

    Basically I see you've gone from skepticism based on nothing, to just saying well even if it is real we can't do anything about it, so it doesn't matter what I believe.
    So not only do you have an issue with skepticism, you don't like realism either? You prefer deluded optimism and angry outrage at those who don't get on board?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  73. #31048
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d...uction-per-twh

    If by obvious reasons against nuclear you mean scaremongering and misunderstandings, yes. Nuclear is the way.
    I mean I agree with terms like "scaremongering" but nuclear isn't the future, and the reason is it's not renewable. You need uranium or plutonium, or some other scarce material that needs to be mined and intensively processed.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  74. #31049
    Oh and hydro is hugely problematic and not a solution I see as viable, not for the planet in general. Not only is the terraforming a problem, with the potential for dam breaches (deliberate or accidental), but it's a geopolitical issue too. Egypt and Ethiopia will likely soon go to war over the latter's hydro projects that is affecting agriculture in Egypt. China have numerous dams on rivers that flow into other countries, giving them massive geopolitical leverage.

    It might work for small countries like Iceland that don't have such geopolitical concerns, but even there you get Bjork's mum (true story) protesting at the environmental damage these projects cause.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  75. #31050
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    The reason I'm skeptical is because climate change is so politically driven, it's presented in the media as "you must think this" and "you're stupid if you disagree", "99% of scientists agree", "you're a right wing nutter if you don't agree", it's a massive appeal to the authority of science without there appearing to be a proper scientific approach to this mater, at least in the public domain. I mean, stuff like "heatwaves are twice as likely due to climate change", that's not science, that's someone pulling a number out of their arse and using it in media articles to influence the way people think. It's politics.
    What's annoying about this is that instead of going to the trouble of finding out even some portion of the truth yourself, you're just taking the lazy option of being a "skeptic", remaining agnostic, and expecting us to respect that as an equally credible position to people who've spent a lifetime researching the topic.

    It would be different if you'd read the peer-reviewed papers in scientific journals, then listened to the media reports, and only then come to the conclusion that the facts are being misrepresented.

    There are climate scientists all over the world saying the same thing. There's literally tens of thousands of scientific papers written on it, by qualified scientists, in respected journals. Objective temperature data confirms it. I don't know what else you want.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=global+warming




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Maybe, but if all of our energy comes from wind, won't this have an impact on the climate? We're literally taking energy directly out of the atmosphere.
    notsureifsrs.jpg

    You're into physics, right? Do you understand how much energy exists on this planet just in the form of wind alone? Do you understand how hugely this dwarfs human consumption?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Direct solar energy seems the most promising, from an environmental pov. You're using energy that would either be absorbed by the ground or reflected back into space.
    Now taking energy out of the environment is ok. Glad you turned around on that.







    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So not only do you have an issue with skepticism, you don't like realism either? You prefer deluded optimism and angry outrage at those who don't get on board?
    See above. My issue is with using skepticism to justify not having a willingness to learn anything on your own.

    You sound like the guy who sees a sign saying "weak bridge, limit 12t," ponders whether the engineers are being politically manipulated by Big Bridge, and so figures ergo, we should drive a 16t truck over it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.

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