Randomness thread, part two.

[OngBonga]

Interesting viewing that is, it gets philosophical with regards fairness, which is the entire problem with this debate... it's ultimately philosophical. We can apply all the science in the world, but we can't truly define "fair" because it's not an objective concept. We can perhaps agree that fairness is equality in opportunity, but that's undefinable itself, it's again philosophical and not scientific. What does it mean? "Fairness" usually happens at someone's expense.

What this comes down to for me is the impact this has on opportunity for natural females. Sabine talks about how some ciswomen are born with higher natural levels of testosterone than even some men. These women already have an advantage over petite women. If we also allow high-testosterone transwomen to compete with ciswomen, the petite women are even more likely to be outcompeted. Ultimately it removes incentive for petite girls to even bother taking sport seriously as children. So while we create opportunity for transwomen, we remove opportunity for petite ciswomen. This is what I mean what I say "fairness" usually happens at someone else's expense. You can't be fair to everyone, which of course makes a complete mockery out of the concept of fairness.

This debate is more philosophical than scientific for this reason. We're talking about fairness first and foremost.

[OngBonga]

There are six "avian influenza prevention zones" in England. I'm in one of them. Apparently DEFRA officials are going door to door at the village checking if hens are properly housed, and there's a couple of the country roads closed, even to pedestrians. Hope it's not going to go on all summer, there's some pools near me where I like to go for a smoke but it's right in the middle of the exclusion zone, can't walk there.

flu.jpg

[OngBonga]

My housemate says he saw a crow commit suicide earlier while he was gardening. Actually commit suicide. It appeared to have a broken wing and walked into the road, where first it missed a car by inches, yet it stayed in the road and got hit by the next car. Another crow let out a loud caw, seemingly in sorrow. Really weird.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Crows are weird creatures, indeed.

I had one terrorize me for a couple weeks when I was living in Seattle back in '99.

I suppose it had a nest somewhere between my house and the bus stop because it would swoop down and fly right next to my head and caw right next to my ear as I walked in between the evenly spaced trees along the sidewalk.

After a few days, I just waited for the timing and did a 180 jump spin while flinging my arms out and scared it as I almost punched the thing in flight.

Stopped messing with me, though.

[OngBonga]

Magpies are bastards like that too.

Everyone knows crows are smart, but usually that comes with the caveat "for birds". It's not like they're human-level smart. At least, it seems ridiculous to think that are. But suicide? I can't think of a single animal other than humans that would commit suicide. That's a "smart" thing to do, which might seem crazy but it implies a degree of conscious thinking that isn't usually associated with animals, and certainly not birds.

I think lots of animals will sacrifice themselves, take fatal risks to protect their young, or bees protecting the queen, things like that, but that isn't really suicide, that's not what my friend describes. We're talking about a bird walking into the path of traffic to end its suffering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide

Reading this, it says animal suicide is unproven. There's some interesting cases of insects that explode themselves when threatened, but this is to protect the colony.

There's anecdotal cases of dogs that refuse to eat when their owner dies, but it's impossible to know if the dog is attempting to end its life, or just depressed to the point it affects natural processes like hunger.

I can't find anything conclusive, it seems my friend witnessed something that is basically scientifically unproven.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I thought whales would beach themselves... for unknown reasons.

[OngBonga]

Yeah whales and dolphins are in the "maybe" group, and at the very least they're smart enough to know that what they're doing will kill them. But nobody really knows why whales do this. It might not be a deliberate attempt to die, they could just be exhausted or confused. There's no real way of knowing the motivation, which of course is why it's so difficult to prove animal suicide.

In some cases disease plays a role. I don't think self-euthanasia counts as suicide in this context, at least not for the purpose of this conversation. Disease can make animals behave erratically, and if they know their disease puts their colony at risk, then it doesn't seem so strange. It's when animals are depressed or injured and they make a conscious decision to end their life, that's just not something you think an animal is capable of.

Whales and dolphins, these are the pretty much the most intelligent animals after humans, it wouldn't surprise me to discover they are capable of conscious suicide. Certainly I think they are capable of being depressed, or aware they are going to die a horrible death and so choose a less horrid method. There's not many animals I'd expect to have this degree of intelligence and emotional awareness though, maybe elephants and some dogs, maybe cats, the list is small though. I wouldn't have put crows on that list until recently, and if crows make the list, you can probably add magpies, rooks, ravens and jackdaws.

[CoccoBill]

Corvids, just like whales/dolphins, great apes, octopuses and some other critters can do stuff that humans learn at age 2-7.

Recommended reading: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...rt-animals-are

[Poopadoop]

Dunno, intuitively it seems unlikely animals understand the concept of themselves being dead or what that means, which would seem to be a necessary precursor to committing suicide. Maybe some of the more intelligent ones do, but if so not many. My dog doesn't even know that's him in the mirror.

[Poopadoop]

Aaaaah!!!

https://twitter.com/AnneLeppold/stat...65655499669505

[OngBonga]

Imagine stopping right where the rocks keep falling.

My dog doesn't even know that's him in the mirror.

Apparently crows fail the mirror test, the only non-mammals that recognise their own reflection are magpies. It definitely seems weird that an animal that doesn't recognise its own reflection would also have the intelligence to commit suicide, but there you go.

Let me know when you next see a dead crow at the side of the road. It doesn't happen. In the UK, the most common type of crow is the carrion crow. They're called that because they eat roadkill. Yet they don't become roadkill. That's because they're smart enough to know when to get the fuck out of the way of cars. They understand the danger cars pose. So when a crow walks into a road, misses a car by an inch or so, and then doesn't think "fuck me that was close" and get the fuck out of the way of the next car, it does seem like it made a conscious decision to die.

I agree it's unbelievable, but there is definitely a flat dead crow on the road outside the house, and my friend isn't a liar. He certainly thinks it was suicide. I didn't witness it but I accept his account of the event.

[Poopadoop]

I had no idea these were real.

https://twitter.com/BillyM2k/status/1548847054658580480

[Poopadoop]

wtf!?

https://twitter.com/KevinRBrackett/s...79703014305792

[Poopadoop]

In retrospect, maybe robot dogs was not such a good idea.

https://twitter.com/sonicmega/status...51495997476864

[Poopadoop]

This is so good.

https://twitter.com/_figensezgin/sta...80277205946375

[OngBonga]

Just come back from a pub quiz. My moment of glory? How many countries are there in the United Nations?

Just instantly and casually write 193 down, nothing to see here.

Only person in the pub to get it.