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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #28726
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    The reason it's leaderless is because black leaders have historically been targeted and vilified if not criminalized over fabricated BS.

    The founders of BLM have stated as much, and have stated why the pure democracy of a leaderless organization has a different kind of power.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  2. #28727
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    I know that's 'your' definition of racism, ong, but it's not 'the' definition of racism. A word means what the person saying means when they say it.

    Effective communication requires us to hear the person speaking as best we can to their intended meaning. If you know what they mean, but you can't get over their choice of words, then you're just being a jerk throwing a tantrum.


    No, it's not racist to say that people of color know better what their communities need than other people who are not members of those communities. Don't be silly.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  3. #28728
    I know that's 'your' definition of racism, ong, but it's not 'the' definition of racism. A word means what the person saying means when they say it.
    I don't define words. I'm not in the habit of making up my own definition of words, I tend to use the wonderful resources at my disposal to ensure I'm using the right word. I mean, if I can define my own words, then racism to me means "enjoys a nice cup of tea".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #28729
    No, it's not racist to say that people of color know better what their communities need than other people who are not members of those communities. Don't be silly.
    I'm not saying it's racist, I'm saying using race as an identity is compounding the problem, not solving it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #28730
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It shouldn't matter what colour someone's skin is, the only thing that matters is their message.
    The facts on the ground are that while it shouldn't matter, it damn well does matter. It's a decades long conspiracy that's been admitted to by just about every bad actor along the way. The simple statistics tell the tale. Look at how black men are having their right to vote systematically stripped away from them by over criminalizing black cultural equivalents to white culture and charging black men with felonies a disproportionate amount, resulting in their loss of the right to vote. Look at the prisons. Who's in there? Predominantly black men who've committed non-violent crimes. This is no accident. It's been constructed to be this way incrementally for decades, and it's been admitted to. It's a conspiracy, but it's not a "wild" conspiracy "theory." It's one of those real ones that's actually worth getting riled up about.



    It's a part of white privilege to say things should be perfect, so it's OK to just ignore that they're not perfect for other people. People who are the objects of the negative consequences of racism don't have the privilege to just shrug it off because it 'should' be fine.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  6. #28731
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    Kyle Kulinski had an interesting theory about Trump refusing to denounce white supremacists and instead telling Proud Boys to "stand by," which is that many republicans don't like it because while they are racist, they don't want to be perceived as racist. They are comfortable with all the dog whistling in the world, but the moment you take it out in the open, they're like: whoa, you're not supposed to say that out loud!

    Since he said that some post debate polls have shown Trump up compared to before the debate, so that might be true for Washington republicans but not necessarily for the bulk of Trump's base.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  7. #28732
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't define words. I'm not in the habit of making up my own definition of words, I tend to use the wonderful resources at my disposal to ensure I'm using the right word. I mean, if I can define my own words, then racism to me means "enjoys a nice cup of tea".
    Every word ever is a made up word that someone made up to mean something.

    The meaning of words changes over time as usage changes. Living languages and all that.

    C'mon, man.

    https://xkcd.com/1576/
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  8. #28733
    The facts on the ground are that while it shouldn't matter, it damn well does matter.
    Yup, and I'm saying this is part of the problem.

    It's a part of white privilege to say things should be perfect, so it's OK to just ignore that they're not perfect for other people. People who are the objects of the negative consequences of racism don't have the privilege to just shrug it off because it 'should' be fine.

    And with the "white privilege" once more. Can I identify as a fucking human being and not a white man please?

    Every word ever is a made up word that someone made up to mean something.

    Angry sausage purple into thingy twenty seventeen moon Saturn?

    The meaning of words changes over time as usage changes. Living languages and all that.

    Indeed, "gay" used to mean "happy". But not all words change. Racism used to mean hatred or intolerance of other races, and still does.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #28734
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The reason it's leaderless is because black leaders have historically been targeted and vilified if not criminalized over fabricated BS.

    The founders of BLM have stated as much, and have stated why the pure democracy of a leaderless organization has a different kind of power.
    So who speaks for them then? They seem to have no voice. That's what I think they need.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  10. #28735
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post

    People who are the objects of the negative consequences of racism don't have the privilege to just shrug it off because it 'should' be fine.
    Yes.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  11. #28736
    Fun fact - all races are subject to racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #28737
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Every word ever is a made up word that someone made up to mean something.

    The meaning of words changes over time as usage changes. Living languages and all that.

    C'mon, man.

    https://xkcd.com/1576/

    But language only works because we have a shared understanding of what words mean.

    If 100 people read "the fox is red" and 99 think it means what it really means, and one says "racist!" that one person has a problem, not the other 99.

    Granted, "racist" has come to have a broader meaning than it's dictionary definition; it's become a shorthand not only for any form of bigotry, but also for anything that a SJW can link to it through three degrees of separation. But that's a problem if you're trying to fight against real racism, and not just virtue signal on social media.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 10-02-2020 at 03:27 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  13. #28738
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Fun fact - all races are subject to racism.
    Duh.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  14. #28739
    Granted, "racist" has come to have a broader meaning than it's dictionary definition; it's become a shorthand not only for any form of bigotry, but also for anything that a SJW can link to it through three degrees of separation. But that's a problem if you're trying to fight against real racism, and not just virtue signal on social media.

    Exactly. Diluting the meaning of words like "racism" to cast a wider net is not solving a problem, it's exasperating it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  15. #28740
    I feel like poop is finally waking up to the problem of the misuse of the word "racism", and it's taken idiots accusing him of racism on Twitter to get there.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #28741
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And with the "white privilege" once more. Can I identify as a fucking human being and not a white man please?
    Sure you can. The same moment POC can.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  17. #28742
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Sure you can. The same moment POC can.
    Great, so I no longer have white privilege, because I'm not white, I'm human. That was easy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  18. #28743
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I feel like poop is finally waking up to the problem of the misuse of the word "racism", and it's taken idiots accusing him of racism on Twitter to get there.
    If only 27 hours of Brexiters getting set straight on national radio had the same enlightening effect on everyone.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  19. #28744
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Great, so I no longer have white privilege, because I'm not white, I'm human. That was easy.
    Yup, and now POC are no longer disadvantaged too. Oh wait...

    Serious question: Would you rather have the benefits of being white or be a POC who involuntarily contributes to those benefits to their own detriment?

    Are you seriously whining about having an advantage due to your skin colour?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  20. #28745
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    If only 27 hours of Brexiters getting set straight on national radio had the same enlightening effect on everyone.
    Not sure why you still care about "Brexiters". You're talking about voters here, not the negotiators. What possible outcome do you expect from constantly complaining about voters? It's not like we can change our mind, even if we wanted to, which we don't, because to most of us, no deal is still better than being a member state.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #28746
    Serious question: Would you rather have the benefits of being white or be a POC who involuntarily contributes to those benefits to their own detriment?
    I'd rather continue to not give a fuck about my skin colour or that of another person.

    Are you seriously whining about having an advantage due to your skin colour?
    "White privilege" is another way of saying "white guilt". I resent having identity imposed on me by others.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #28747
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    "White privilege" is another way of saying "white guilt". I resent having identity imposed on me by others.
    I've heard of 'white guilt' but I've never heard of POC demanding it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  23. #28748
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Not sure why you still care about "Brexiters". You're talking about voters here, not the negotiators. What possible outcome do you expect from constantly complaining about voters? It's not like we can change our mind, even if we wanted to, which we don't, because to most of us, no deal is still better than being a member state.
    Just a comment on stubbornness and cognitive dissonance, that's all.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  24. #28749
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I've heard of 'white guilt' but I've never heard of POC demanding it.
    "I had a dream. A dream that white people would still be cunts to us, but at least they'd feel bad about it."

    MLK - never.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  25. #28750
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I've heard of 'white guilt' but I've never heard of POC demanding it.
    In fairness, it's usually twat white people who demand it. For example, oskar, when he points to British colonialism in an attempt to slap me down when talking about immigration, as though I don't have the right to complain about immigration because I am white British. I guess that's more "British guilt" than "white guilt" but it's the same bullshit.

    Everything is about identity. Even those trying to do good work to improve the lives of other people, they fall into this trap.

    I have two identities... me, and human. I am both unique, and one seven billionth of a species.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #28751
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I resent having identity imposed on me by others.
    How do you think POC feel about having their identity imposed on them by others?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  27. #28752
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    How do you think POC feel about having their identity imposed on them by others?
    Like you just did and have been constantly doing by using the term "POC"?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #28753
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    In fairness, it's usually twat white people who demand it. For example, oskar, when he points to British colonialism in an attempt to slap me down when talking about immigration, as though I don't have the right to complain about immigration because I am white British. I guess that's more "British guilt" than "white guilt" but it's the same bullshit.

    Everything is about identity. Even those trying to do good work to improve the lives of other people, they fall into this trap.

    I have two identities... me, and human. I am both unique, and one seven billionth of a species.

    I think there is a thing where a lot of anti-immigration belief is historically associated with racism and bigotry.

    On another, unrelated to you personally, note: I learned recently that UK education equates colonialism with the great British people bringing great things to those they colonised. Kipling's "The white man's burden" and all that. The truth is colonialism was nearly entirely exploitative.

    Do you think it's a problem that colonialism is whitewashed in schools that way? That to me seems like the kind of systemic racism that could easily be removed.

    Edit: Boris got the phrase "watermelon smiles" as a reference to black people from a textbook he read at Eton. Fact.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 10-02-2020 at 03:48 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  29. #28754
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Like you just did and have been constantly doing by using the term "POC"?
    So I'm the problem by recognising racism is a thing?

    Sorry but your level of reasoning is sinking to SJW levels. I get the feeling you're about to "block" me here.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  30. #28755
    Do you think it's a problem that colonialism is whitewashed in schools that way? That to me seems like the kind of systemic racism that could easily be removed.

    I don't think there's many people in the UK that think colonialism was purely a good thing. I think it's fair to say there were positive and negative consequences. But it's history. We're taught bullshit when it comes to WWII. Every nation in the country whitewashes their history to remove the stuff that makes them look bad. The UK is not alone in doing this. It's not a well known fact in the UK that the Soviets paid the highest human price in WWII, people assume we won the war. In USA, they'll say it was them who won the war. But it was USSR that did the most to defeat Hitler.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #28756
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    So I'm the problem by recognising racism is a thing?

    Sorry but your level of reasoning is sinking to SJW levels. I get the feeling you're about to "block" me here.
    haha I don't block anyone for disagreeing with me.

    The point is though, you are imposing an identity on people, and speaking on their behalf. Your question was "how do POC feel about having identity imposed on them", completely oblivious to the fact you literally imposed an identity on them. I'm obviously going to point that out.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  32. #28757
    I mean really man, you seem more upset by people misusing the word "racism" than you do about actual racism. It just seems a strange, and honestly a bit self-centred, way of prioritising things.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  33. #28758
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    haha I don't block anyone for disagreeing with me.

    The point is though, you are imposing an identity on people, and speaking on their behalf. Your question was "how do POC feel about having identity imposed on them", completely oblivious to the fact you literally imposed an identity on them. I'm obviously going to point that out.
    Not sure where you're trying to go with this, except possibly to distract attention from anything serious, so I'm not going to pursue it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  34. #28759
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't think there's many people in the UK that think colonialism was purely a good thing. I think it's fair to say there were positive and negative consequences.
    Simply put, it was positive for us and negative for them, yes. We got rich off their backs. We gave them Christianity in return. And yes, we built some railroads to help us get rich off their backs, and yes, when we left they got to keep the railroads. Not really expert on this topic, but I dare say they were better off before we came along and worse during and after.

    Edit: What you say here is kind of like saying Native Americans are better off now than they were when they roamed free on the plains chasing buffalo because now they have mobile phones. The point is, whenever they were asked, they said "Leave us alone, let us live the life we've had for thousands of years, we're happy the way we are." And they were promised they could and then those promises were broken. It's pretty hard to see that as in any way ok.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 10-02-2020 at 04:20 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  35. #28760
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    We're taught bullshit when it comes to WWII.
    The difference though is that at least in WWII we were unquestionably on the right side of things overall. We reacted to events in a generally moral way. We declared war on Germany after they attacked Poland, sticking up for a minor country's independence, for example.

    It's one thing to glorify that; it's actually something to be proud of. It's quite another thing to teach our children that we were doing India a favour by colonising those poor stupid POC.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  36. #28761
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And with the "white privilege" once more. Can I identify as a fucking human being and not a white man please?
    Yes, but only due to your white privilege. A person of color can't just choose to be a human and have that be an end to their being the object of racism. Ergo, it is a white privilege to identify as you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Angry sausage purple into thingy twenty seventeen moon Saturn?
    I can draw from context that you had no intent other than to appear random, and so I probably understood what you were intending to communicate to me and I don't need to throw a tantrum that you didn't say it in the way I expected to hear it.

    I seriously don't understand your angle on this one. Listening means trying to understand someone.
    Just listen; you don't have to agree to listen.

    I know when you say "pants" you mean "underwear." I'm quite certain that if I said something about "underwear," you'd know I was talking about "pants."
    We don't need to insist that one of us translate pants to underwear or vise versa just to communicate.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Indeed, "gay" used to mean "happy". But not all words change. Racism used to mean hatred or intolerance of other races, and still does.
    It's like you're looking for any excuse to not understand this issue. So much so that you can't get past semantics.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  37. #28762
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I mean really man, you seem more upset by people misusing the word "racism" than you do about actual racism. It just seems a strange, and honestly a bit self-centred, way of prioritising things.
    You'd probably see it differently if there was someone in this discussion actually saying racist things.

    Not sure where you're trying to go with this, except possibly to distract attention from anything serious, so I'm not going to pursue it.
    It comes back to my point that I believe racial identity is a huge part of the problem. It's ingrained in us all, even myself. I try not to do it, but it's inevitable when talking about race.

    Simply put, it was positive for us and negative for them, yes.
    It's not that simple. We didn't just give them Christianity, we also gave them industry.

    Not really expert on this topic, but I dare say they were better off before we came along and worse during and after.
    I doubt this is true in all cases, and it will depend on who you're asking. I mean, one Indian might say British colonialism was the worst thing that happened to India, another might say it was the best. Personally, I'm not qualified to say either way. But it's history. I don't hold a grudge against Iceland or Norway because of the Vikings.

    Edit: What you say here is kind of like saying Native Americans are better off now than they were when they roamed free on the plains chasing buffalo because now they have mobile phones.
    Yeah, but it's subjective, and it's not necessarily something I agree with. I'd rather a simple life, but that doesn't mean it's best for humanity. In 100 years, maybe this process we're going through will be seen as essential to create the kind of civilisation that will exist then, with great medical care, science, art, all the things that separate us from the monkeys.

    If you'd rather be a monkey than a human, that's fine, but you can't impose that will on everyone. Not everyone sees it that way.

    The difference though is that at least in WWII we were unquestionably on the right side of things overall.
    Were we though? How can you be sure this isn't just indoctrination? I mean, where did all the Nazi scientists end up? How can you know that what we're taught is the truth? You appreciate we teach bullshit when it comes to colonialism, but you assume we're the good guys in WWII because we weren't gassing Jews. Well we knew it was happening, and we waiting until they threatened the rest of Europe before acting. At least, that's my understanding of how it panned out. Perhaps that's me being indoctrinated, too. We believe what we're taught.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  38. #28763
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'd rather continue to not give a fuck about my skin colour or that of another person.
    Which is something you have the privilege to do because you are not a person of color.

    A person of color can't just not give a fuck that they are held to a different standard as though that makes the standards change.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    "White privilege" is another way of saying "white guilt". I resent having identity imposed on me by others.
    Your choice to feel guilt has nothing to do with white privilege.

    White privilege affects all white people as being members of a society that treats us normally while it does not treat people of color like it treats us. It doesn't mean we have advantages by and large, except that it means we lack a shit ton of disadvantages, and oops that's actually a huge advantage when you think about it.


    Also - "white guilt" is something that racist people have, so if you're feeling guilty for things done by white people, then it's because you identify as a white person. Your guilt is neither appropriate nor helpful. Snap out of it and realize that there are active systems of oppression that need to be taken down, and you and I on the street level aren't part of the problem unless we ignore it and pretend it'll go away.

    It's not going away, it's only growing in more subtle and insidious ways. They never openly took away black men's right to vote, rather, they criminalized black people with negative imagery on the news. Then they passed laws to put harsher punishments on the clearly criminal elements of black culture - no not black people, just these clearly criminal elements, mind. Then here we are with a generation of black men in prisons having committed non-violent crimes and with their right to vote stripped from them.

    THIS is what happens when good people think being "color blind" is all that it takes to end racism. Being "color blind" is just another white privilege, and that doesn't mean you should feel guilty, it means you should open your eyes to what's going on and try to understand why people of color do not have the luxury to ignore racism, and the suggestion that they should is both callous and cruel.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  39. #28764
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Yes, but only due to your white privilege. A person of color can't just choose to be a human and have that be an end to their being the object of racism. Ergo, it is a white privilege to identify as you suggest.
    Nonsense. You just proved it by continuing to identify me as white, which means to you, I am not merely a human. So I can't identify as I choose. People like you won't let me. Some privilege.

    I know when you say "pants" you mean "underwear." I'm quite certain that if I said something about "underwear," you'd know I was talking about "pants."
    This isn't about using different words to describe the same thing. Racism means the same to us both. At least, it should.

    It's like you're looking for any excuse to not understand this issue. So much so that you can't get past semantics.
    My problem is that I simply refuse to dilute the meaning of the word "racism". It's far too powerful a word, and should be used with extreme caution.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #28765
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Yes, but only due to your white privilege. A person of color can't just choose to be a human and have that be an end to their being the object of racism. Ergo, it is a white privilege to identify as you suggest.
    Said much better than I did, but yeah exactly.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  41. #28766
    Which is something you have the privilege to do because you are not a person of color.

    So you're saying black people have no choice but to identify as black? How do you not see a problem with this mentality?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  42. #28767
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Said much better than I did, but yeah exactly.
    It's a flawed argument. I can choose to identify as I choose, but others still impose an identity on me that I did not choose.

    How can I have white privilege if I do not identify as white?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #28768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    But language only works because we have a shared understanding of what words mean.

    If 100 people read "the fox is red" and 99 think it means what it really means, and one says "racist!" that one person has a problem, not the other 99.
    If that 1 person insists their interpretation is valid, and then goes on to behave like an adult and explain their interpretation, then the 99 have the choice to also behave like adults and listen, or not.

    If the 1 is behaving like a child and simply saying they're right and not explaining anything, then I guess the adult thing would be to just walk away, 'cause I don't have time for people who don't have time for themselves.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 10-02-2020 at 04:50 PM.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  44. #28769
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    At least, that's my understanding of how it panned out. Perhaps that's me being indoctrinated, too. We believe what we're taught.
    A lot of b.s. to work with in that post, but I agree with this endnote of humility and suggest we all try to question what we think we know and try to learn more independently.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  45. #28770
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    My problem is that I simply refuse to dilute the meaning of the word "racism". It's far too powerful a word, and should be used with extreme caution.
    You don't have to change what the words means to you in order to listen to someone use the word in a way that means something differently than you do.
    This argument still makes no sense to me. Your mind and your beliefs do not need to change in order to listen to someone with different beliefs. You do not have to agree to listen, as indicated by this conversation we're having.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So you're saying black people have no choice but to identify as black? How do you not see a problem with this mentality?
    I'm saying that society is going to treat a person of color differently than it treats me, and it doesn't matter in the slightest how we internally identify ourselves.

    I'm saying it's a huge problem. I'm saying the assertion that it shouldn't be a problem is true, but does not accurately describe the world we live in. We can dicker and argue all day about what the world should be, but at the end of the day, we have to work with the world we live in.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's a flawed argument. I can choose to identify as I choose, but others still impose an identity on me that I did not choose.

    How can I have white privilege if I do not identify as white?
    Because society identifies you as white whether you like it or not.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  46. #28771
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    How can I have white privilege if I do not identify as white?
    Because others identify you as white. You're not the one doleing out the privelege, you're the one benefitting from it. You have no say in the matter, just like POC have no say in how others identify and treat them.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  47. #28772
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    If that 1 person insists their interpretation is valid, and then goes on to behave like an adult and explain their interpretation, then the 99 have the choice to also behave like adults and listen, or not.

    If the 1 is behaving like a child and simply saying they're right and not explaining anything, then I guess the adult thing would be to just walk away, 'cause I don't have time for people who don't have time for themselves.
    Dunno. I get what you're saying about listening and trying to understand others, but at the same the social contract of language requires reciprocity. If the other person has an idiosyncratic definition of a particular word, I have a hard time thinking it's on me to learn that definition and agree to it when conversing with them. I think they need to be aware they're using language differently than most people, and be clear they're doing so. This is a lot to ask maybe, but it's more to ask that I and others read ther mind.

    E.g., I suppose I could try to garner that someone is using the "Karen" definition of racism, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, of that it leads to the same conclusions as a more (imo) reasonable definition).
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 10-02-2020 at 04:59 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  48. #28773
    Because society identifies you as white whether you like it or not.

    So I don't have the privilege to identify as I please, any more than anyone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  49. #28774
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So I don't have the privilege to identify as I please, any more than anyone else.
    If you were a person of color, and you pretend that you will not be the target of oppression based on your race, and you do not dress and act accordingly in public spaces, then you have a higher risk of oppression.

    Your choice to not identify as white bears no increased risk of anything.

    That's the privilege.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  50. #28775
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You'd probably see it differently if there was someone in this discussion actually saying racist things.
    My point was more general than about today's discussion.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  51. #28776
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So I don't have the privilege to identify as I please, any more than anyone else.
    To quote a wise man "you're not this dumb."

    The word 'privelege' refers to how society as a whole treats you, in the balance, due to your skin colour. Nothing more. Nothing less.

    Now, if you want to argue that there's no advantage to the average person in (say) the UK if their skin is a pinkish hue and their features are European than if their skin is darker and their face is not European, then please go ahead.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  52. #28777
    Now, if you want to argue that there's no advantage to the average person in (say) the UK if their skin is a pinkish hue and their features are European than if their skin is darker and their face is not European, then please go ahead.
    Why do you suppose this could be? Haven't we talked about this extensively? The average white person in this country is a great deal more socially settled than the average non-white. I'm a bad example of "privilege" because I'm not exactly "advantaged". I came from a poor family and have remained poor my entire life. But I also understand I am a great deal wealthier than poor people in most other countries, and for that I do consider myself fortunate. I can at least afford to eat, pay rent, and even smoke weed for half the month. But there are a great many non-white people in the UK better off than me, and better off than lots of people living in mainly white estates around the country. There are lots and lots of disadvantaged white people in the UK. And I know you said "average". Well, when we import tons of migrants from third world countries, that will affect the average. Those who've been settled here for generations, they enjoy a greater average advantage than those who have not. The opportunities exist for all, we do not live in a country where opportunity is reserved for people of a certain colour. Rather, class is a greater obstacle than race. And, of course, language. Those who speak English well will obviously do better than those who do not. This isn't a conspiracy, it's inevitable in a wealthy nation that accepts migrants from all parts of the world.

    You're doing what you criticise people on Twitter for... looking for racism where it doesn't exist. The UK is extremely progressive when it comes to race. And that is why people from all over the world want to come here, to the point of risking their lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  53. #28778
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    If you were a person of color, and you pretend that you will not be the target of oppression based on your race, and you do not dress and act accordingly in public spaces, then you have a higher risk of oppression.

    Your choice to not identify as white bears no increased risk of anything.

    That's the privilege.
    Oppression is not something that happens in the UK, not in any systematic way. Racism happens, but oppression is not something one person does to another. Oppression is something that people in power do to those who have no power. There is no higher risk of oppression here. This is not an oppressive country. Maybe in USA it's different, and that would go a long way to explain why we're so far apart on this matter.

    If I were a dress, I am at higher risk of discrimination. Does that mean putting a dress on removes my privilege?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  54. #28779
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Why do you suppose this could be? Haven't we talked about this extensively? The average white person in this country is a great deal more socially settled than the average non-white. I'm a bad example of "privilege" because I'm not exactly "advantaged". I came from a poor family and have remained poor my entire life. But I also understand I am a great deal wealthier than poor people in most other countries, and for that I do consider myself fortunate. I can at least afford to eat, pay rent, and even smoke weed for half the month. But there are a great many non-white people in the UK better off than me, and better off than lots of people living in mainly white estates around the country. There are lots and lots of disadvantaged white people in the UK. And I know you said "average". Well, when we import tons of migrants from third world countries, that will affect the average. Those who've been settled here for generations, they enjoy a greater average advantage than those who have not. The opportunities exist for all, we do not live in a country where opportunity is reserved for people of a certain colour. Rather, class is a greater obstacle than race. And, of course, language. Those who speak English well will obviously do better than those who do not. This isn't a conspiracy, it's inevitable in a wealthy nation that accepts migrants from all parts of the world.

    You're doing what you criticise people on Twitter for... looking for racism where it doesn't exist. The UK is extremely progressive when it comes to race. And that is why people from all over the world want to come here, to the point of risking their lives.
    Half the problem here is that you talk about yourself and your own life as if that is in any way representative of whites in the UK as a whole.

    Ong n = 1 does not in any meaningful way reflect White British n = 55,000,000 or 60m or whatever the number is.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  55. #28780
    Half the problem here is that you think Karen is the average Brit.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  56. #28781
    I mean, I was quite clear that I wasn't just talking about myself. I don't know what else you could think I mean when I talk about "lots and lots of people in mainly white estates". I'm not talking about just me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  57. #28782
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Ong you're confusing how your personal circumstances affect you vs how your race affects you. If you were yourself in every other way but your skin was black, would you be worse or better off?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  58. #28783
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Ong you're confusing how your personal circumstances affect you vs how your race affects you. If you were yourself in every other way but your skin was black, would you be worse or better off?
    In the UK? Probably better off. I didn't get the job I applied for (and actually wanted) at Oxfam, I reckon I'd have had better chance if I had different skin, because, y'know, quotas.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  59. #28784
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Probably better off.
    lol. Show us the numbers to prove that please.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  60. #28785
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Half the problem here is that you think Karen is the average Brit.
    I'm talking to you mate. You are in no way the "average Brit".
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  61. #28786
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    lol. Show us the numbers to prove that please.
    I mean as opposed to telling us what you've gleaned from what it's like for you personally as n=1 white person in the UK.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  62. #28787
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I'm talking to you mate. You are in no way the "average Brit".
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  63. #28788
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    lol. Show us the numbers to prove that please.
    This is pretty dumb, by the way. I was clearly being tongue in cheek, and you ask for "numbers" to "prove" something that is obviously unprovable.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  64. #28789
    I don't think I'd be any better or worse off if I were black, assuming all else equal, and that's because, with all else being equal, my ancestors have lived here for centuries and established a social base for me. Maybe I'd have been picked on at school a bit more.

    When I was at school, there were lots of Asians, and one German lad. Guess who got bullied?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #28790
    I can even remember his name. Christopher Hassle. We called him Cristophe or Germ. He fucking hated both those names.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  66. #28791
    We still let him play football and cricket with us. I remember him getting out for 99 in one game, he was so pissed off. He was always angry. Not sure if it was because he was German, or because we picked on him. A bit of both, I suspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #28792
    Oh man, Little England is alive and well.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  68. #28793
    Because bullying only happens in Little England.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  69. #28794
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    I miss Little Britain. Is there a comedy sketch with Matt Lucas playing Boris? If not how has that not happened?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  70. #28795
    Little Britain was the least funny comedy of a generation. It was like the Fast Show, except it wasn't even funny the first time.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  71. #28796
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Am I dreaming or is there a running trend of you getting fairly defensive whenever anything criticizing Britain is mentioned?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  72. #28797
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    I miss Little Britain. Is there a comedy sketch with Matt Lucas playing Boris? If not how has that not happened?
    Naturally.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  73. #28798
    One more from back in March.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  74. #28799
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Heh that's pretty good. Uncanny similarities.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  75. #28800
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Am I dreaming or is there a running trend of you getting fairly defensive whenever anything criticizing Britain is mentioned?
    lol what? How is me slagging off Little Britain being "defensive"? And I think you're taking me a bit seriously when we talk about weather and cuisine.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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