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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #28426
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    We all have prejudices
    Not necessarily. The Chinese and Japanese are from the same geographic area and share some visual characteristics. So let's call them "East Asian", or even "Oriental". That's not prejudice, that's an observation based on reality. Of course, they do not look identical, so if you were to say "they all look the same to me" then you're being prejudiced because this statement is not based on reality.
    When we box people in the same category according to one attribute, there's a whole plethora of biases (group attribution, halo effect, outgroup homogeneity bias etc.) that start telling us the people in the box share other attributes also. Putting people in boxes isn't (necessarily) prejudiced or racism, but it can easily lead to it. I think we're all predisposed to being racist, it's inherent in the way we think and see the world. Racism doesn't exist because evil people do evil things, it's because regular people let things happen, because they have infinite empathy and excuses for their own actions/inaction, because they think it's someone else's problem.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  2. #28427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    However, there's a difference between what you might call a hard-wired preference and a lot of the nasty shit that goes on in the world based on race. It's not what you think or feel that makes a difference, it's how you act. And it takes a conscious effort to recognize how you treat people differently based on appearance and another conscious effort to avoid doing it. That's hard, and I think a lot of people just can't be bothered. And there's some proportion of people who are just cunts too, and use race as an excuse to be a cunt to another person.
    Agree completely. Our whole evolutionary baggage tells us we should distrust anyone we don't know or doesn't look familiar, we like to lump people in categories and tend to easily assign negative qualities to them, we feel threatened by anything new and that we perceive as a challenge to our own culture. Treating every person you meet in your life as an individual, giving them the benefit of the doubt, that's massively hard work and I don't think anyone achieves that.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  3. #28428
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Of course, they do not look identical, so if you were to say "they all look the same to me" then you're being prejudiced because this statement is not based on reality.
    No, it's not. This is clearly demonstrable. Here's a funny video, ~8:30 in length which makes the point rather well.

    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  4. #28429
    Round 1 - nailed it. You're not fooling me when it comes to Japan. I was like "C is definitely Japanese, A looks Japanese too, the black girl isn't ethnically Chinese, Japanese or Korean, and the last one looks like a trannie so fuck knows".

    Holy shit. I paused it to make that comment, unpaused it an now it turns out that I'm right about the trannie too. I'm not even lying.

    Round 2 - fuck knows, Africans do all look alike, we're talking about Chinese and Japanese people here, who do not look alike. *upause* haha they're Carribean. I did guess one guy as Kenyan because he looked like he could run for days.

    Round 3 is fucking funny.

    Round 4 - could be any of them, fuck knows. I'm guessing the Japanese guy because I can tell where he's from. Oh, it was a woman. I should have guessed.

    Round 5 - Dunno the formula, I'm gonna guess the white guy who looks a bit like Sid James. Ha, it was the cartoon guy. It crossed my mind but I'll be the first to admit I'm a cartoonist, there's no way I thought a drawing of a person was capable of solving difficult equations.

    Well I nailed round one, and that's the one that mattered. In conclusion, Chinese and Japanese people do not look alike.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #28430
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    I seriously bombed on every one. I could have probably done slightly better in round 1 if I knew it was a trick question, but as for the rest... I just suck at that.

    Also... I want to know the story of how that cartoon solved a problem that was considered unsolvable and what their path through life was that they're now making funny YouTube videos.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  6. #28431
    I thought I failed the first round, I basically thought "well A looks Japanese but C is definitely Japanese so I guess they basically found the most Japanese looking Chinese girl". There was clearly a trick though, I thought "maybe the black one is Korean by birth" but that would be cheating because it's really an ethnicity test, not a nationality test. I settled on A being a Japanese looking Chinese, B being not ethnically East Asian, C definitely Japanese, and D trannie. I'm calling that "nailed".

    You were right to make the point that my comment "they all look the same" isn't necessarily racist, but if the differences are obvious, then it is. Maybe it's not so obvious to most people what the physical difference is between the Chinese and Japanese, I guess I watch more Oriental porn than most.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #28432
    The skin of your elbow and the skin of your ball-sack completely lack pain receptors. You can pinch either one really really hard and you will feel no pain. Fact.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  8. #28433
    Skimmed the last page--

    MMM, I saw a post where you seemed to be saying that under policing was an issue in black communities. The opposite is the case. An example would be that everyone smokes weed, but black people are overrepresented in weed charges. Anyway, I think you do an admirable job of trying to dig down to the root causes, but at the same time I think you stop short, as many do. Violent gangs are a sexy topic, and kicking in doors and rounding them up sounds exciting-- a real carpe diem, heavy metal blaring, american hero type of approach. But the gangs are not the root cause of drug dependence and abuse, the conditions that cause people to feel the need to turn to drugs is the problem. As long as those conditions exist and go untreated, there will be a market for drugs. The more intensely enforced the prohibitions are, the higher the prices will go. The higher the prices, the more those suffering from substance addiction will turn to crime to support their sickness.

    I do agree that criminalizing the users and low tier dealers is absurd and fruitless-- but taking out those at the top can be just as fraught. We saw that happen in Chicago, which caused power vacuums, fractured alliances, and made mediation between the now the more numerous factions far more difficult. The same can be seen in Mexico, Colombia, etc.

    We don't need more policing in black and brown communities, we need more healthcare, social workers, funding for schools, grocery stores (seriously, look into "food deserts"), etc.
  9. #28434
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    I agree with all of that, Boost.

    My use of the word underpolicing was in error. I was trying to get at the heart of what you are saying, but I didn't understand the fullness of the situation (still don't, frankly).
    I've learned a lot in the past week, and will continue to learn more as time goes on.


    I'm not well suited to deal with social problems, and I've let that allow me to ignore them and focus on teaching physics.
    However, I can no longer pretend that this problem can possibly be addressed, let alone solved, unless everyone who believes in justice and equality under the law makes the emotionally difficult move of facing the real issues head on.

    I am brought to tears on a daily basis these past couple of weeks, and while that's a selfish reason, perhaps, to get involved, it's where I am. If this collection of issues is going to tear me apart emotionally whether or not I try to be involved, then I'm damn sure going to be involved.


    To wit, and I don't know how it will go, because I've only signed up to be a part of it, I've enrolled in a program called, "Me and White Supremacy," which makes the following statements about what it's cultivating

    What this space is not:
    It is not a substitute for direct action and engagement in local or national issues.
    It is not a one-time checklist item for being an “ally.”
    It is not a space of proving our “wokeness” or that you are "one of the good ones."
    It is not a space to play intellectual games with the pain and trauma of Black people.

    What this space is:
    It is a space for vulnerability, honest reflection, feedback, and movement into sustainable engagement in anti-racist work.
    It is a space to start where you’re at and welcome others wherever they are starting at.
    It is a space for moving from the theoretical to the practical and concrete.
    It is a space for supporting each other in honestly and authentically unpacking our own white supremacy and anti-Blackness and making changes in our lives.
    I'm not trying to brag about anything, or virtue signal, here. I'm just saying that I'm facing my ignorance and trying to find out what I can do to be involved and to be a part of affecting change. For me, that starts with education, and this group feels like it is offering what I need right now.

    If anyone else feels like they may need this, too, here's a link to sign up.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  10. #28435
    Yeah man, parsing through all this is not easy, but it's a worthwhile journey.

    I too, while not emotionally dead or anything, don't tend to find interest in the parts of social issues that most do. It can be frustrating, because I want to talk about strategy and tactics, and when honestly discussing these facets, you often trigger those whose minds don't spin that way.

    Something always rubbed me wrong about the black history curriculums I've experienced, and this twitter thread really helped me solidify some thoughts on why exactly. In history class, broadly, we learn about people taking up arms and fighting for what's right, yet that whole side of the civil rights movement has been erased from the classroom, and subsumed by a Disney'ified rendering of MLK and Rosa Parks. I don't think it's a grand conspiracy, mostly just a combination of unconscious bias and well meaning editing for the sake of young audiences. But as a boy and young man, the tanks and airplanes, the tactics and strategy of WWII is what animated me-- and the lack of these analogs in the teaching of black history is what made February the least engaging month in history class for me.

    The thread: https://twitter.com/michaelharriot/s...76281040797699
  11. #28436
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    I avoid Twitter. Can you summarize what you've linked, there?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  12. #28437
    I must admit I've been in tears for the World myself a few times over the last few weeks. BLM and covid hit me in the heart.

    Werdly I've also felt more alive, have laughed more too.

    But, 10 weeks so far of lockdown and I'd had enough at two weeks. Boris and Trump - neither seem to have a fucking clue.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  13. #28438
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I avoid Twitter. Can you summarize what you've linked, there?
    There's actually quite quite a few heartwarming stories there - but yeah you gotta know where to click.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  14. #28439
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  15. #28440
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Is this an attempt to compare it to me saying you could always return to Canada if you felt the UK leaving the EU was so bad for you? I'll assume not, because the context is completely different.

    Even still, the guy has a point. I do appreciate that "why don't you leave" is an easy thing to present as racist, but it's not really, because I'd say exactly the same to a French person. If I went to live in France, and din't like a statue of Napoleon, idk if they even celebrate him but he was a cunt, if I have a problem with that, if I have a problem with French culture, and how they celebrate their history, coming back home to England is an option.

    idk if this woman was actually born elsewhere, and if so if that guy knows it. That's kind of relevant. If he's just assuming she has dual nationality because she's black, and making those comments based on that assumption, that's pretty racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #28441
    I mean from what I can gather she was born in the UK. I'm not even that bothered about birth, identity is enough. But identity isn't really a choice, it's a cultural process.

    Given that she is British, it seems pretty racist to me, even if she does have dual nationality.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #28442
    She was born in Norway to a British father, and raised in London. She has every right to consider herself "British".

    If she'd moved from Norway five years ago, I'd say his comments are fair enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  18. #28443
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    It's perfectly possible to love most of the things about a country, but not everything.

    Standing up for human rights shouldn't be tied to a location.

    No matter where you're from and where you are, the right to criticize what you feel is wrong should always be an option.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  19. #28444
    This specific incident is not about human rights, it's about statues. He's not saying "if you don't like racism, leave", he's saying "if you don't like how we celebrate our history, leave". It's racist because she's British. If she wasn't British, it's fair comment. That context is important.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #28445
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    I feel like you picked my one sentence that was off base, but ignored the other 2 which seem to be appropriate.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  21. #28446
    Well that's probably because I don't disagree. I mean sure she has the right to critisise, but if I'm in another country exercising my right to complain, and someone else says "well you can always go back to England", I'm going to consider that as a reasonable thing to say.

    I'm not suggesting where she's from determines her right to complain. I'm arguing that this guy is racist because he was making these comments without knowing if she was actually British or not. If she came here five years ago or whatever, and this guy knows it, she's still got the right to complain, but he is also within his rights to point out she lives here by choice.

    This is actually about him, not her.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #28447
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    I think the exclusionary sentiment is just another form of bigotry.

    It's dismissing the argument with a non-sequitur.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  23. #28448
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    A small meta observation. In a conversation the responses become far less polemic if people on top of saying where they disagree, in some form acknowledge where they do agree. Not aimed at anyone in particular, but everyone in general, especially myself. I realized I don't do it enough.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  24. #28449
    There's a Churchill statue under this. Everyone on Twitter is making the same joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  25. #28450
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    A small meta observation. In a conversation the responses become far less polemic if people on top of saying where they disagree, in some form acknowledge where they do agree. Not aimed at anyone in particular, but everyone in general, especially myself. I realized I don't do it enough.
    Nah people just need to not care if certain parts of their posts go without comment. Poop does it all the time to me, he'll take one sentence form a wall that he can argue against, and leave all the juicy bits where I actually have a point. When he does that, I kinda take it as a win, not least because I ignore parts of his posts that I can't be bothered to respond to because I either agree or it's too hard to refute.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #28451
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I think the exclusionary sentiment is just another form of bigotry.

    It's dismissing the argument with a non-sequitur.
    The problem is, he appears to assume she has the option of living elsewhere purely because she's black. He may know enough about her to know she was born in Norway, without knowing it was to a British man, and that she grew up in London, in which case he's not being racist, just ignorant. But if the bigotry arises because of a racial assumption, well I don't see what other word there is other than racism.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #28452
    They're coming after Fawlty Towers now! I can't wait until they find out what all the hip hop artists rap about.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #28453
    Quote Originally Posted by twitter
    The reason people resist "black lives matter", the phrase, is because it's a strawman argument that implies that most people think they don't.


    The reason people resist "Black Lives Matter", the organization, is because they're far left neo-Marxists and domestic terrorists.
    Yeah, basically.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #28454
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    I've always read it as "black lives matter too", rather than "only black lives matter". Assuming that the people who support it mean the latter is just weird.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  30. #28455
    It's like you're responding to a different point.

    The reason people resist "black lives matter", the phrase, is because it's a strawman argument that implies that most people think they don't.
    Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #28456
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    No I explicitly meant to refer to that. It never even crossed my mind that people who came up with the slogan meant only black lives mattered.

    I see it to be a bona fide/mala fide situation, do you expect the people in question to be reasonable. "Black lives matter too" is perfectly reasonable, in fact should be the default for any reasonable person, whereas "only black lives matter" is simply inexcusable. I have no reason to think people behind BLM are not reasonable.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  32. #28457
    I think the driving force behind BLM is radical, it's not a battle for equality but supremacy. That's not to say the support for BLM is fighting for supremacy, to most it is about equality, this comes back to my earlier comments about the left (and right) being used as pawns. BLM are basically the radical feminists of race, and the bulk of their supporters are normal feminists.

    But you have missed the point above. This isn't a case of "black lives matter too" vs "only black lives matter", the author of the quoted comment is making the point that the slogan "black lives matter" implies that most people don't already think black lives matter. All reasonable people are already in agreement that black lives matter. The slogan comes across as a message to white people in general rather than a message to the powers that be.

    The problem for me is that it looks like they are fighting racism with racism. That isn't a winning strategy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #28458
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    I disagree, ong. I see no evidence of BLM being a black supremacy movement, certainly not by the founders of BLM.

    I'm curious what you are seeing from the "driving force" behind the BLM movement and organizers that indicates this.

    Please share.


    ***
    [sarcasm]
    Besides, ong. If you're not an American, then your thoughts and criticisms are a waste of your time, by your own analysis.
    You didn't even bother to come to America so we can tell you to go back where you came from before criticizing an American movement.

    Look at you criticizing my culture without even being an American. How inconsiderate of you.
    [/sarcasm]

    See what I mean... your argument that someone can only criticize a country if they are a citizen from birth just doesn't hold up.
    So long as your criticism is made in good faith, then discounting it based on nonsense isn't responding in good faith.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  34. #28459
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    the author of the quoted comment is making the point that the slogan "black lives matter" implies that most people don't already think black lives matter.
    That author has a good imagination because that's not what it makes me think. It makes me think black people are tired of getting killed by the police over trivialities, and nothing happening to the offenders - as if their lives didn't matter.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  35. #28460
    Ong, society, the majority of the time on a local level, almost always on a national level, and most certainly on a global level treat black lives as less valuable than white lives. Either collectively, and therefore in aggregate individually, don't think black lives matter (as much as other lives), or there is some grand conspiracy with a handful of omnipotent racist Illuminati.

    For it to be the former, it doesn't require clan hoods in the the closet of the aggregate person, it simply means that in aggregate, people are ok with the status quo. There are neo nazis and klan members, but that's not the indictment being made against the average person (and I purposely am not saying average white person, because the status quo is supported by people of all colors. It's all they know. They're fish with no concept of water.)
  36. #28461
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I avoid Twitter. Can you summarize what you've linked, there?

    Click the link, read the succession of tweets by the author, don't read any replies or retweets. I'm not on twitter either, but we're both big boys-- not gonna hold your hand here.
  37. #28462
    See what I mean... your argument that someone can only criticize a country if they are a citizen from birth just doesn't hold up.
    I have not said people can't criticise. You keep insisting this is what I'm saying, but it's not.

    People can criticise, and others can oppose such criticism. If you make public comments, you expose yourself to a public debate.

    I have in the past before expressed bemusement at why someone who holds British culture in contempt would move to the UK. The reason of course is economics, which is fair enough, but it's somewhat lacking in principle. I wouldn't think I had any moral high ground to stand on when I'm supporting the economy by choice. I'd just keep my thoughts to myself and get on with my work. If I decided to publicly voice my opinion, I'd do so expecting a negative reaction from locals.

    So long as your criticism is made in good faith, then discounting it based on nonsense isn't responding in good faith.

    The problem here is that "nonsense" is subjective. I don't think it's a nonsense to point out to an individual that he or she lives here by choice, so long as that is actually true. In the case of this example, that doesn't appear to be the case. This guy is wrong to dismiss her comments in the way he did, because he is assuming she is not British. You really want it to not be important what her nationality is, but unfortunately it is important. An extreme example is if I move to Germany today, and immediately start complaining about streets named after people linked to Nazis, that's gonna get on a few peoples' nerves. I mean I don't even speak German. They would rightly argue "what right has this guy got to turn up and start complaining", even though my complaints would actually have some moral merit.

    Now if I'd worked in Germany for five years maybe, spoke the language, considered myself to be settled, maybe I'm better placed to start taking moral positions in public debate. But until then, I'm a guest. This is what I mean about national "identity" being a cultural process rather than a choice.

    I'm curious what you are seeing from the "driving force" behind the BLM movement and organizers that indicates this.
    Maybe I'm being unfair and the "driving force" is actually the infiltration, but by driving force I mean the radicalism that we're seeing going on right now. I don't think what we're seeing is spontaneous, I think there is a level of organisation, and I'm questioning the motives of the organisers.

    See what I mean... your argument that someone can only criticize a country if they are a citizen from birth just doesn't hold up.
    One more point about this. I have also not said this is about place of birth, more about identity. I don't care where people were physically born. I've made it clear that the video we're talking about, that I completely accept that this woman is British, despite her not being born here. My point is that if she was a Norwegian who recently moved here, then someone refuting her complaints with "you can return home if you don't like it" is not a racist slur, it's not even unreasonable. You don't seem to like this because it places an emphasis on nationality, something you would prefer wasn't a relevant factor. But it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #28463
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Maybe I'm being unfair and the "driving force" is actually the infiltration, but by driving force I mean the radicalism that we're seeing going on right now. I don't think what we're seeing is spontaneous, I think there is a level of organisation, and I'm questioning the motives of the organisers.
    What radicalism? To my knowledge the majority of protests have been peaceful throughout, and the rioting and looting has mostly ended for a while now. There's some indications that at least some of those had been organized by radical right groups and criminal gangs. I haven't seen any actions made by any of the peaceful protests that seem pre-planned or organized any more than someone saying "fucking hell, let's go protest".
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  39. #28464
    The radicalism has shifted from looting to defacing monuments. And yes, as I've acknowledged in this discussion previously, infiltration of these protests is coming from many different angles.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #28465
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    Well yeah but man, there's been protests in 550+ cities in the US, in how many have you heard there have been problems, 10?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  41. #28466
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I have not said people can't criticise. You keep insisting this is what I'm saying, but it's not.
    I misunderstood what you were saying. I apologize.

    I didn't mean to insist, I just misunderstood.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    People can criticise, and others can oppose such criticism. If you make public comments, you expose yourself to a public debate.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The problem here is that "nonsense" is subjective.
    I mean nonsense in the sense of changing the subject to something that does not remotely respond to the issue.
    Whether it's ad hominen, non-sequitur, or whatever. Changing the subject from the complaint to the complainant is not arguing in good faith, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Germany
    I can agree with degrees of skepticism about your true intent, but it doesn't change my opinion that if you're informed of the history and your grievance is made in good faith, then that should count more than any other factors in discussing that grievance.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Maybe I'm being unfair and the "driving force" is actually the infiltration, but by driving force I mean the radicalism that we're seeing going on right now. I don't think what we're seeing is spontaneous, I think there is a level of organisation, and I'm questioning the motives of the organisers.
    Who do you think are these infiltrators?

    Why has their radical agenda not been found out by the FBI?
    How are they communicating with each other, and managing to organize hundreds of people in each of a dozen or more cities without any known internet presence or phone records connecting those hundreds of people in each city?

    Is it the same group responsible for the taking down of public statues / monuments in the US as in the UK? Around the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You don't seem to like this because it places an emphasis on nationality, something you would prefer wasn't a relevant factor. But it is.
    I have no issues with national pride. I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud to be a world citizen, to have seen other countries, and other cultures. Nationality has pros and cons.

    If nationality is being used as an excuse to disregard knowledge based criticism made in good faith, then that's a con, IMO.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  42. #28467
    I mean nonsense in the sense of changing the subject to something that does not remotely respond to the issue.Whether it's ad hominen, non-sequitur, or whatever. Changing the subject from the complaint to the complainant is not arguing in good faith, IMO.
    Ok I get that. It's not so much changing the subject, more a case of answering a question with a question. It's a deflection tactic in debate, almost to the point of instinctive. He's probably waiting to find the right time to slip this comment into his airtime. I agree that's not arguing in good faith, but then again that's identity politics plus television. It's how live political debate tends to work on tv, so it's not really his fault. And it's not like his comments are irrelevant.

    Let's not forget I find his comments distasteful, because he assumes she is not British. I'm basically arguing about a hypothetical situation where this woman is not British.

    I can agree with degrees of skepticism about your true intent, but it doesn't change my opinion that if you're informed of the history and your grievance is made in good faith, then that should count more than any other factors in discussing that grievance.
    Ok, but if you come from a different civilised country, and culturally relate to that country, then even if you're educated and on solid moral ground, it's still not a surprise to be asked "well what keeps you here?". I can only speak for myself, but when I ask that question, it's because I wouldn't stay in a country if I held their culture in contempt. Not unless I was being paid a lot of money, and in that event I'd keep a low profile until I was back home. So it's more a sense of bemusement than any kind of bigotry.

    Who do you think are these infiltrators?
    Like I said to cocco, it's coming from all sides. Antifa, patriots, white supremacists, I'm sure black supremacists do exist and are active in some capacity, there's anarchists, basically people at the extremes whose agenda is not equality.

    Why has their radical agenda not been found out by the FBI?
    idk, maybe it was, or maybe they slip through the net, or maybe the feds didn't uncover any illegal activity, I can't possibly know the answer to this question.

    Is it the same group responsible for the taking down of public statues / monuments in the US as in the UK? Around the world?
    Here in the UK, a Robert the Bruce statue have been vandalised. He fought against Edward 1 alongside William Wallace at the end of the 13th century, he might not have seen a black man in his entire life. Yet his statue is daubed with "racist" and "BLM" graffiti. I can't imagine anyone from BLM actually did that, it's much more likely to be Scottish politics at play here,

    Lots of different people have different agendas, some of them have absolutely nothing to do with BLM.

    If nationality is being used as an excuse to disregard knowledge based criticism made in good faith, then that's a con, IMO.
    I don't think it's "disregarding" criticism. In this case she's talking about the status of Churchill and Nelson statues, two huge figures in British history. If you're going to go publicly gunning for people like that, you're going to entice some emotional responses. To respond to such criticism with words to the effect of "you choose to live here" is fair game, provided of course that the person does indeed choose to live here. That's why nationality is relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #28468
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Well yeah but man, there's been protests in 550+ cities in the US, in how many have you heard there have been problems, 10?
    idk, there's been lots of problems, a great deal more than 10, but I have no idea if they originate from the same protests or different ones. And I'm arguing that the BLM movement has been infiltrated by radicals. They can't be everywhere, so I'd expect the majority of protests to be largely uneventful.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  44. #28469
    I misunderstood what you were saying. I apologize.


    I didn't mean to insist, I just misunderstood.
    It's all good, no need to be sorry. I just had to ram home the point that I don't think people do not have the right to be critical just because they are foreign. I just recognise nationality is an important factor in this discussion. People who are British do not choose to live here, and I extend that to people who have culturally settled here. But if you do choose to live here, it's not unreasonable for people to ask what keeps you here if you seem unhappy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  45. #28470
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    idk, there's been lots of problems, a great deal more than 10, but I have no idea if they originate from the same protests or different ones. And I'm arguing that the BLM movement has been infiltrated by radicals. They can't be everywhere, so I'd expect the majority of protests to be largely uneventful.
    10, 20, maybe 50, still a small minority. I wouldn't call that the driving force is what I'm saying. Also infiltrated sounds like they've somehow sneaked in and diverted the core of the moment, where I'd just say they've taken over parts of the protests, and at least partly specifically to delegitimize them. Just a matter of perspective, and small biases can completely turn around what's being perceived.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  46. #28471
    Yeah that's fair comment, but we'll all capable of small biases. I obviously don't know what the fuck is going on, neither does anyone else. This year just gets crazier, I don't think I'd be that surprised if it turned out aliens were doing this.

    Protests in Lebanon, their pound was 1500 to the dollar in Jan, it's now 5000 and they can barely afford to eat. As best I can tell, no looting yet, but they did set fire to the central bank.

    Meanwhile, in my home town, twats are protesting about the name of a hotel.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  47. #28472
    Meanwhile other twats are going out to lend their support to the cause of preserving our national shame in the form of statues.

    https://twitter.com/OliDugmore/statu...45768026787846
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  48. #28473
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  49. #28474
    The far right is out to pledge it's respect to the statue of Churchill today - by giving it the Nazi salute.

    "We shall fight on the beaches, on the landing grounds, and...oh fuck it. Sieg heil!"



    https://twitter.com/dansabbagh/statu...55011777794048

    Say what Ong wants about the lefties, but these guys are giving stupid a bad name.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  50. #28475
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    You do realise you're posting fake news here, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  51. #28476
    Say what Ong wants about the lefties, but these guys are giving stupid a bad name.
    These guys look like bored football fans. Let's not forget Euro 2020 should be happening, and all these twats should be in the pub watching us lose against the first decent team we face.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  52. #28477
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You do realise you're posting fake news here, right?
    You're right! It was a different group of racists that they took the audio from.

    https://twitter.com/FIintIock/status...87708881481733
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  53. #28478
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Meanwhile other twats are going out to lend their support to the cause of preserving our national shame in the form of statues.

    https://twitter.com/OliDugmore/statu...45768026787846
    The Cenotaph is a source of shame? This is a war memorial dating back to WWI. It stands there today because the people demanded it in 1920. One hundred years later, and people are having to defend it from the baying mob.

    That's a source of fucking shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  54. #28479
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    You're right! It was a different group of racists that they took the audio from.

    https://twitter.com/FIintIock/status...87708881481733
    Indeed. So someone somewhere faked that footage of people singing it in London.

    Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  55. #28480
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    These guys look like bored football fans. Let's not forget Euro 2020 should be happening, and all these twats should be in the pub watching us lose against the first decent team we face.
    "Pubs are closed, and I miss footie. What should we do?"

    "Let's go to London and seig heil the Churchill statue."

    "I'm in!"
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  56. #28481
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Indeed. So someone somewhere faked that footage of people singing it in London.

    Why?
    Clickbait?

    Or do you think anyone needed real convicing the far right is full of racists?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  57. #28482
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Clickbait?
    Propaganda.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  58. #28483
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The Cenotaph is a source of shame? This is a war memorial dating back to WWI. It stands there today because the people demanded it in 1920. One hundred years later, and people are having to defend it from the baying mob.

    That's a source of fucking shame.
    Stop talking shit. No-one has threatened the cenotaph. And they're not 'defending' it, they're using it as an excuse to go out and stir up shit.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  59. #28484
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Propaganda.
    Why lie when the truth is already compelling enough?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  60. #28485
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    "Pubs are closed, and I miss footie. What should we do?"

    "Let's go to London and seig heil the Churchill statue."

    "I'm in!"
    Wait, do you think they are seig heiling? Putting one arm in the air does not make it a seig heil. Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  61. #28486
    And how is it anything but abhorrent to being doing the Nazi salute in front of the cenotaph? Defending it - fuck off.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  62. #28487
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Why lie when the truth is already compelling enough?
    This is a very good question. Mull it over for a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  63. #28488
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Stop talking shit. No-one has threatened the cenotaph. And they're not 'defending' it, they're using it as an excuse to go out and stir up shit.
    You just posted a link showing me people singing God Save the Queen at the Cenotaph, suggesting they are twats protecting our national shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  64. #28489
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Wait, do you think they are seig heiling? Putting one arm in the air does not make it a seig heil. Jesus.
    Tell that to these people.



    Maybe they should have a disclaimer on their next rally "Any resemblance to a mass of nazis saluting the sieg heil is purely coincidental."
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  65. #28490
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You just posted a link showing me people singing God Save the Queen at the Cenotaph, suggesting they are twats protecting our national shame.
    Sorry, but aren't they also against taking down any the statues of racists?

    And you've yet to explain to me why they're really there. Who was threatening the cenotaph?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  66. #28491
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is a very good question. Mull it over for a bit.
    You tell me, you seem to have it all figured out.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  67. #28492
    I can't believe we're at the point where putting an arm in the air triggers the left into "Nazi" claims.

    I used to celebrate scoring a goal by putting one arm in the air and running. I think Shearer did too, he copied my celebration...

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  68. #28493
    I can't believe we're at the point where the right tries to claim there's no difference between a man pointing a finger in the air and the men holding their palms up in the air.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  69. #28494
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Sorry, but aren't they also against taking down any the statues of racists?

    And you've yet to explain to me why they're really there. Who was threatening the cenotaph?
    Do you think everyone there is exactly the same? Do you think they are the same thoughts with different faces?

    The Cenotaph has been defaced, has it not? And you're trying to say there's no threat to it? It offends people who want to shit on British culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  70. #28495
    Lol I love the tough guy at the end rolling up on the smallest cop he can find. What a fukcing loser.

    https://twitter.com/AyoCaesar/status...83411087220736
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  71. #28496
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I can't believe we're at the point where the right tries to claim there's no difference between a man pointing a finger in the air and the men holding their palms up in the air.
    I'm sorry but I think this is a massive overreach here, those people are not seig heiling. I've seen that a million times in pubs during England matches when people are singing "Ing-er-land". It's not a fucking seig heil, and anyone who thinks it is, they are either stupid or massively disingenuous.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  72. #28497
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Do you think everyone there is exactly the same? Do you think they are the same thoughts with different faces?
    Clearly not. Some are more sympathetic to nazis than others.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The Cenotaph has been defaced, has it not? And you're trying to say there's no threat to it? It offends people who want to shit on British culture.
    Someone wrote BLM on the bottom. Hardly counts as defacing it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  73. #28498
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm sorry but I think this is a massive overreach here, those people are not seig heiling. I've seen that a million times in pubs during England matches when people are singing "Ing-er-land". It's not a fucking seig heil, and anyone who thinks it is, they are either stupid or massively disingenuous.
    Maybe Ingerland needs a new gesture that doesnt bear such a close resemblance to the seig heil. Maybe that's the problem.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  74. #28499
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Someone wrote BLM on the bottom. Hardly counts as defacing it.
    ffs let's play semantics.

    Ok, try graffiti. Vandalism. Whatever you like. People see that as a threat. You might not, but some people do. At the very least it's an insult to those who consider it to be an important part of our history.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  75. #28500
    I like how when it's the left protesting for racial justice they're all pawns of the establishment, but when it's the right it's just a few bored football fans.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.

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