Pre-nuptial Agreements

[BankItDrew]

Opinions please.

A friend of mine and his fiancee broke up over the weekend because of a disagreement with a prenuptial. So I started wondering whether or not it would be right for me.

Advice, opinions, recommendations are all welcome.

[spoonitnow]

I think that anyone who has a problem with a prenuptial agreement actually has problems with 1) being a leeching whore, and/or 2) insecurity. Seriously, why the fuck wouldn't a sensible human being get one?

[chardrian]

Reasons not to get a prenup:
1) it assumes the marriage will fail,
2) it presumes that what one spouse does is more important than what the other one does
3) even if you get one it still might not hold up if you get divorced
4) you don't have any assets to bring into the marriage to begin with (this was my case)

[bode]

unless one of them is incredibly more wealthy than the other and/or they have only been together a very short time then its kinda pointless.

also what char said.

[Fnord]

If either of you are pretty well off, it's reasonable. If both parties are pretty independent it still makes sense to sort out who had what.

Yet another reason I think the way people enter into these things is a set-up for failure.

[flomo]

good luck with the relationship

[meeloche]

I'm kinda surprised by the majority saying no. I'm obviously young and stupid, but you never know what could happen shouldn't you hedge yourself against an unpredictable future?

[salsa4ever]

I wouldn't get married if I thought there was a need for a pre nup

[pgil]

If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.

I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.

[meeloche]

If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.

I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.

Do you live in Utah by any chance?

[chardrian]

Reasons to get a prenup:
1) you both bring lots of assets into the marriage that you want as yours if the marriage were to fall apart
2) it's practical - the majority of marriages end up in divorce, preparing for that doesn't mean you want it to happen, just that you realize it's a possibility
3) if you do get divorce it makes the legal hassle more manageable because you already have figured all or most of it out.
4) wtf - I ain't givin' that ho my shit.

[kingnat]

Reasons to get a prenup:

2) it's practical - the majority of marriages end up in divorce, preparing for that doesn't mean you want it to happen, just that you realize it's a possibility
3) if you do get divorce it makes the legal hassle more manageable because you already have figured all or most of it out.

I'm a big fan of 2 and 3.... the EV for not having to pay excessive lawyer fees makes it worthwhile... it might be unromantic... who cares it's fucking math.

[BankItDrew]

If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.

I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.

Do you live in Utah by any chance?

Lol I thought the exact same thing the first time I read it too... then I read it a second time.
I voted for yes, btw...

I've seen many divorces hit the shitty fan when the cases go to court for the whole asset distribution thing, and shit really did hit the fan. The guy I'm talking about wanted a prenupt because of what his dad went through with his ex-wife, it went really bad.

I can't think of any good reasons to not get one, and I know most of you are wondering wtf because you came up with reasons. "set yourself up for failure" is not a good reason to not get one. That's like saying "don't get the warranty because you won't be careful with it." Or "why wear a seatbelt? if you do, you won't be careful driving." I could go on but I think you get my point.

I think the point made about it just being another legal document, like a will or the marriage agreement, is a good one too.

[kingnat]

I don't NEEED a parachute to jump out of the plane... I got FUCKING LIFE INSURANCE MAN!!!!

[flomo]

i voted yes

[|~|ypermegachi]

it's against my beliefs to get one and i hope i never get asked to get one because that would mean i failed to create a trusting relationship.

[Pelion]

dont get one

the fear will hold you together

[drmcboy]

depends 100 % on the situation, any other answer seems naive. If you're a millionaire on marriage 4, get a pre nup. I would never have considered one with my wife.

[jyms]

don't bother. Most people here don't have the kind of money required to protect anyway. Anything you do while married cannot be placed in the prenup anyway, they are only for pre marriage assets anyway. If you win the WSOP after getting married, she gets half, since she was "at your side" while you were there, and most women without the family background of big money, never understand the reasoning.

[pgil]

If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.

I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.

Do you live in Utah by any chance?

I don't get the confusion. My fiance and I have been living together for about 4 years now, and everything that we have (bills, money, furniture, car) is all stuff that we have both contributed to.

I just saw it now. you must have missed that first 'n' in there.

[ProZachNation]

Option 3. Murder?

[shazbox]

I read a study that said 100% of couples they asked acknowledged that over 50% of marriages fail, yet 90% of them said the chance of their marriage failing was 0%.

People are dumb.

But ya, if you don't have a lot of shit already there is no point.

I could get a prenup, but it would cost more to get it written up by a person capable than I am worth, so no point.

[chardrian]

Anything you do while married cannot be placed in the prenup anyway, they are only for pre marriage assets anyway.

Incorrect. A lot of this will depend on what state you are in, but I am in CA and I will treat this as good bar exam practice.

CA is a community property state. This means that all assets acquired during marriage are presumptively community property and are divided 50/50 upon divorce. Any property or asset owned by either spouse before marriage or acquired during marriage through gift or devise (inheritance) is presumptively separate property and the other spouse gets no part of it upon divorce.

However everything above is simply a presumption. CA has always allowed spouses to opt-out of the statutory presumptions through valid, written agreements that are signed by both spouses. You can change the status of particular property (e.g. I want to make the vacation cottage I own pre-marriage into community property) or you can change the status of all acquisitions (e.g. my salary is going to be my separate property and your salary will be yours).

You can also change the status prior to marriage (a prenup) or during the marriage (a transmutation).

There are only 2 defenses to the enforcement of a prenup: 1) it was not signed voluntarily; and 2) it is unconscionable (i.e. super duper unfair).

To be voluntarily signed the spouse must: 1) have been represented by independent counsel when the prenup was signed or fully informed in writing regarding exactly what rights s/he was giving up by entering the prenup, and 2) have been given a 7 day cooling off period to sign the prenup.

To make a valid transmutation, the agreement needs to be in writing, signed by the spouse who is giving up an interest in the property, and expressly state that a change in ownership is being made (but you don't need independent counsel).

[bigred]

Marriage is an outdated institution anyway. Let's evolve.

[Pelion]

Marriage is an outdated institution anyway. Let's evolve.

Yes thats what I always tell my students.

[jyms]

Anything you do while married cannot be placed in the prenup anyway, they are only for pre marriage assets anyway.

Incorrect. A lot of this will depend on what state you are in, but I am in CA and I will treat this as good bar exam practice.

CA is a community property state. This means that all assets acquired during marriage are presumptively community property and are divided 50/50 upon divorce. Any property or asset owned by either spouse before marriage or acquired during marriage through gift or devise (inheritance) is presumptively separate property and the other spouse gets no part of it upon divorce.

However everything above is simply a presumption. CA has always allowed spouses to opt-out of the statutory presumptions through valid, written agreements that are signed by both spouses. You can change the status of particular property (e.g. I want to make the vacation cottage I own pre-marriage into community property) or you can change the status of all acquisitions (e.g. my salary is going to be my separate property and your salary will be yours).

You can also change the status prior to marriage (a prenup) or during the marriage (a transmutation).

There are only 2 defenses to the enforcement of a prenup: 1) it was not signed voluntarily; and 2) it is unconscionable (i.e. super duper unfair).

To be voluntarily signed the spouse must: 1) have been represented by independent counsel when the prenup was signed or fully informed in writing regarding exactly what rights s/he was giving up by entering the prenup, and 2) have been given a 7 day cooling off period to sign the prenup.

To make a valid transmutation, the agreement needs to be in writing, signed by the spouse who is giving up an interest in the property, and expressly state that a change in ownership is being made (but you don't need independent counsel).

I thought that is basically what I said. All I was saying is, you can't worry about anything you have or earn while married in a prenup because you will be signing the forms before you are married. Not many women, nor men, would sign a prenup stating anything I earn after we get married is mine. Basically we are only concerning ourselves for what we have at this time, and who here has enough to worry about. Even if you have $100K in the bank, what the hell is $50K going to be worth after 20 years of marriage? Anything that happens after would need to be renegotiated, but who in their right mind would renegotiate when there is something to lose?

[chardrian]

Actually I think the major point of most prenups is generally to change the allocation of salary (or at least a percentage of it) from community to separate property.

So the first question to be answered in terms of whether or not one should get a prenup is why do you want one?

[spoonitnow]

I think it's retarded to hell to associate the amount of trust in a relationship to whether or not you should get a pre-nup. 1. If you didn't trust the bitch, there would be no relationship, and 2. Of course you'll trust her UNTIL she tries to take off with half of your shit.

Almost every single person I've ever known that has went through a divorce and didn't have a pre-nup expressed at some point that they wish they'd had one.

[Lukie]

if you have lots of assets, absolutely 100% yes.

I strongly disagree with the notion that if you have a pre-nup, you're going into the relationship/marriage with the expectation that it's going to fail. Instead, you just have the intelligence to realize that there's a possibility (and a strong one at that, judging by the current divorce rate) that things won't go as planned in the future. It happens... there's no reason to destroy a lifetime of hard work and saving because you thought you were so madly in love that nothing could possibly happen. looooool

[Lukie]

errr just read the actual poll.. if you're going into the thing with near equal income and assets, there's really no reason to.

[spoonitnow]

stfu lukie nobody asked you

oh wait they did nm

[Pythonic]

Prenups are only good for the super rich. Unless you have 1 million sitting in a bank account they are most likely not needed. Good luck for those trying to find a fiancee who will sign a prenup, they will laugh their asses off and leave in a jiffy.

[meeloche]

If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.

I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.

Do you live in Utah by any chance?

I don't get the confusion. My fiance and I have been living together for about 4 years now, and everything that we have (bills, money, furniture, car) is all stuff that we have both contributed to.

I just saw it now. you must have missed that first 'n' in there.

lol my bad

[Jack Sawyer]

Marriage

He married Cynthia Scurtis, a psychology professor, on November 2, 2002. The couple's first child, Natasha Alexander, was born on November 18, 2004. On April 21, 2008, Cynthia gave birth to their second child, Ella Alexander,[44] in Miami, Florida.

On May 27, 2007, Rodriguez was spotted at a Toronto strip club with a blonde woman, later identified as Joslyn Noel Morse, an exotic dancer with Scores Las Vegas who was featured in Playboy's 2001 magazine "Playboy's Casting Calls."[45] The New York Post ran a picture on May 30, 2007.

Divorce

On July 2, 2008, the New York Daily News reported that Rodriguez and his wife had separated, after having "problems" for the past three months, since the birth of their second daughter.[46] This comes together with rumors published in Us Weekly magazine, about a possible affair between Rodriguez and pop singer Madonna,[47] claims Madonna later denied.[48]

ESPN reported that Cynthia Rodriguez filed for divorce on July 7, 2008, citing "emotional abandonment" and marital infidelity by her husband. Even though Mrs. Rodriguez signed a prenuptial agreement, the validity of any such agreement is subject to the normal challenges of a contract action, in addition to any limitation to private contracting imposed by New York State family law. She sought alimony, distribution of assets, child support including private school tuition, life and health insurance, and retention of the couple's $12-million marital home in Coral Gables, Florida.

Wat, poor A-Rod



Nothing lasts forever, it seems...

[wufwugy]

interesting bump

many important reasons people get married are pretty much non-existent several years down the road.

since marriage is a legal issue why not hire legal counsel so you will have proper guidance and understanding?

[kiwiMark]

Baby, if you truly love me and know we're gonna be together forever, sign this saying I get allllllllllll your shit if we break up. If you don't sign it, it's like saying you think we're gonna get a divorce and you have no faith in our relationship or trust in me.

[kiwiMark]

dont get one

the fear will hold you together

needs more love imo

[d0zer]

Sweet bump kiwi.

I strongly disagree with the notion that if you have a pre-nup, you're going into the relationship/marriage with the expectation that it's going to fail.

The problem is that emotional romantics can't make the distinction, and to them -- acknowledging that it could fail is barely if at all removed from expecting it to fail.

[flomo]

So how much did you lose?

[bikes]

if you aint no punk, holla we want prenup.

we want prenup! YEAH!

[kiwiMark]

oic

[Sasquach991]

If you think you need a pre nup, then you are marrying the wrong person.

[BankItDrew]

I don't think anyone should ever get married. We're all much better off doing all of the married stuff without the paperwork.

[boost]

I don't think anyone should ever get married. We're all much better off doing all of the married stuff without the paperwork.

tax break incentives.

[boost]

If you think you need a pre nup, then you are marrying the wrong person.

lolidealism.jpg

[Lukie]

Sweet bump kiwi.



The problem is that emotional romantics can't make the distinction, and to them -- acknowledging that it could fail is barely if at all removed from expecting it to fail.

Then you have a decision to make.

I would add that if you have enough money to make a prenup worthwhile, a steady stream of hot, young, eager and willing women tends to follow, and the one you're currently 'with' isn't going to be in a hurry to leave either.

[Lukie]

Ok there might be a little gap between 'enough money to make a prenup worthwhile' and 'rich' where the above apples, but you get the idea.

[d0zer]

Then you have a decision to make.

The obvious decision is to practice mate selection more carefully. I don't think I could ever be with someone who didn't acknowledge the transient nature of love or future unknowns.

I wasn't disagreeing with what you said at all, it just seems like your words would be lost on a lot of people raised on fairy-tale romance stories that produce absurd expectations for relationships.

[Lukie]

agree on everything

[d0zer]

it's settled then. When we get married, we're getting a prenup.

[Micro2Macro]

people change. finances change and can change people for better or worse.

most women are all gold digging whores and some can do a very good job at covering it up. if i ever get married im getting a prenup to cover my ass but thats just my opinion.

one of my uncles got screwed REAL bad in a divorce so im probably biased from seeing it happen to someone fairly close to me. if your relationship ever goes to shit for whatever reason ur gonna wish u had one.

[wufwugy]

[Sasquach991]

lolidealism.jpg

Maybe, but I've been married for over 20 year.

[Roid_Rage]

Ive never.understood the point of alimony.

[BennyLaRue]

Because you only understand acrimony?

[Roid_Rage]

I am boorish american. I understand none of your made up words sir.

[rpm]

Marriage is an outdated institution anyway. Let's evolve.

thankyou sir