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*** Official Putin Started Shootin' Thread ***

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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Ongtin View Post
    Fun fact - he actually is an actor.

    Not that you'd need to act to show grief when people in your country are dying due to war, but still. He's a pretty good actor, yes.
    You're an idiot.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  2. #302
    So, this Craig guy got found in contempt of court for giving out info on twitter that could have led people to identify victims of sexual assault. Showed up at the police station drinking a bottle of champagne. Seems like not an attention-seeker at all.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...egin-jail-term
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    You're an idiot.
    Says this then goes on to mock Murray for getting stitched up by the state for journalism.

    Here's some homework for you... actually look into that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #304
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    "Independent journalists do not fear their editor firing them and other consequences of truthful journalism."

    You do realize that this is at least equally true:

    "Independent journalists do not fear their editor firing them and other consequences of false journalism."
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by cocco
    "Independent journalists do not fear their editor firing them and other consequences of false journalism."
    Sure, there are obviously tons of "journalists" out there posting dodgy "news". I don't just believe any blogger who claims to be independent. In fact there's very few bloggers, if any, that I hold in the same regard as Murray.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Says this then goes on to mock Murray for getting stitched up by the state for journalism.

    Here's some homework for you... actually look into that story.

    The judge who convicted him was in on the grand conspiracy I see.


    Edit: Five appeals court judges too. Upheld the conviction.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/a...h-b990588.html


    I repeat: you're an idiot.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 04-05-2022 at 06:55 AM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  7. #307
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Dear Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent,

    Oi. Knock it off with the "idiot" talk.
    We're all idiots, here. Hasn't anyone ever told you it's impolite to point out a persons short-comings?

    Disagree respectfully.
    You're actually good at it, which is refreshing.


    -monke
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  8. #308
    I'm quite happy for poop to call me an idiot. It only serves to weaken his position as he attempts to gain any moral or intellectual high ground. Such insults will be one way traffic and will not remotely bother me. Ignore it mojo.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #309
    poop, you're looking at the judgement instead of the circumstance, and drawing conclusions from that. This means you're in a position of ignorance.

    The British legal system is not as perfect as you like to think. This is the same legal system still holding Julian Assange in prison, and the same legal system that prosecutes plebs like you and I for covid breaches while letting Boris off the hook. You know our system is flawed, yet here you are cheerleading the judgement of a court that threw a man in prison for journalism.

    And for no reason other than an attempt to discredit the guy who I trust the most in media. It's personal to you. It's weak as fuck.

    If you're not interested in this case, fine. I don't blame you, you have no interest in the guy. But don't think you can rely on the integrity of our legal system, because it's lacking. Not as much as some places, but we do not treat people equally.

    I can demonstrate this because I read this guy's blog, and nothing, literally nothing that he has said has ever led to me being able to identify any of the women who made complaints (disproven complaints) about Alex Salmond. The BBC, on the other hand, did publish an article that had me think "so that's one of them". Did that journalist get thrown in prison for contempt? Did he fuckity fuck.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #310
    Well in the first instance, I was calling you an idiot for your apparent complete lack of social intelligence by making jokes about Zelensky's reaction to mass murders of his own people by the Russians. I'm not surprised it doesn't bother you though.

    As for Craig, first of all, it's the police who set the fines for covid breaches. The police are idiots and total suckups to the gov't, there's no doubt about that.

    Second, the judiciary is a separate entity than the police. That's why they work in different buildings. Judges tend to be pretty independent. Judges have ruled against the gov't plenty of times. The Good Law project has successfully got a number of decisions against the gov't. But here, the judges ruled for the gov't and now they're suddenly all corrupt toadies of the establishment in your little world.

    Bringing up the Assange case is another example of you being ignorant of how the law works. Is it illegal to reveal classified gov't secrets? Yes. Does it somehow become legal if those secrets are embarrassing to the gov't? No. Judges follow the law, not what you think is right or wrong. The judge can't say "yeah well he broke the law but he was sticking it to the man at the time so let's forget the law and let him go."

    And third, your main argument defending Craig isn't based on any verifiable facts, but on anecdotal evidence: "I read his blog and I couldn't identify his victims, but I read the BBC and I could." Like your biased n=1 sample should hold more weight to me than high court judge's opinions.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Well in the first instance, I was calling you an idiot for your apparent complete lack of social intelligence by making jokes about Zelensky's reaction to mass murders of his own people by the Russians. I'm not surprised it doesn't bother you though.
    YOU made a joke about it, referring to his acting skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #312
    btw, actually reading his blog is relevant, because the accusation was the he used "jigsaw identification" to identify the accusers. Funny how those who read his blog have no idea who the accusers are.

    It's incredible how these accusers can basically be proven in court to have been lying, yet still get the protection of the state. And it's incredible how someone who failed to identify these people goes to prison while "respectable" journalists don't. I'm not aware of a single person who was even able to identify what constituted the "jigsaw identification" he was accused of, let alone who the accuser(s) are. Literally the only thing I know is that at least one of the accusers is a member of the SNP.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #313
    Give it up.

    I made a sarcastic comment in response to your claim that the stills could have been faked. You went on to say "hurr durr he is an actor."
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  14. #314
    Oh and Assange was being held in prison for a charge that Sweden dropped. So yeah, you're the one showing ignorance on this matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Give it up.

    I made a sarcastic comment in response to your claim that the stills could have been faked. You went on to say "hurr durr he is an actor."
    I responded to your comment about him being an actor. You said "hur dur he's an actor" before I did.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #316
    I mean, you're saying it's ok to make jokes about Zelensky being an actor if it's a sarcastic reply, but it's not ok to makes jokes about him being an actor if it's a sarcastic reply to your sarcastic reply.


    This is the state of affairs right now poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    btw, actually reading his blog is relevant, because the accusation was the he used "jigsaw identification" to identify the accusers. Funny how those who read his blog have no idea who the accusers are.
    But he was charged and found guilty of it. The court of appeals upheld his conviction. So either a) they know something you don't; or b) they're all toadies of the establishment. With all due respect to your investigative chops, I'm going with a) above.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's incredible how these accusers can basically be proven in court to have been lying,
    Finding someone not guilty of what you accused them of != proving you to be a liar.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    yet still get the protection of the state. And it's incredible how someone who failed to identify these people goes to prison while "respectable" journalists don't. I'm not aware of a single person who was even able to identify what constituted the "jigsaw identification" he was accused of, let alone who the accuser(s) are. Literally the only thing I know is that at least one of the accusers is a member of the SNP.
    If they're found to be lying in court, they should face perjury charges. Then they can and will be exposed. Until then their anonymity has to be respected. Again, it's not about what you think about the case. The law is the law.


    Damn, the more I learn about this guy the more of an attention-seeking crank he seems to be.

    Seems he got thrown out of the SNP for trying to be in the SNP and run for another party at the same time.

    An insider said Murray would no longer have met the criteria for being an SNP member in March when he said he was a Holyrood election candidate for a rival pro-independence party.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I responded to your comment about him being an actor. You said "hur dur he's an actor" before I did.
    Ok you win. I was making light of massacred Ukranians and you were just tagging along.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Oh and Assange was being held in prison for a charge that Sweden dropped. So yeah, you're the one showing ignorance on this matter.
    Right, I know nothing about why he was in jail. You have all the facts, I have none.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Finding someone not guilty of what you accused them of != proving you to be a liar.
    You probably need to read up on the case before assuming that I was implying that Salmond being found not guilty is the same as proving the women lied. One of the women claimed she was at a party with Salmond, which he denied, and nobody could verify that she was there. Nobody saw her, nobody spoke to her, it was a party and everyone in attendance was interviewed, as you'd expect for such serious accusations. She was lying. Actually lying. Yet we still don't know who she is, and if you find out and print her name, it's you going to prison.

    If they're found to be lying in court, they should face perjury charges.
    Yes. Yes they should.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #321
    Maybe you should.

    here's some things I dug up in 10 minutes that dispute what you just said.


    The first witness was "Woman H", who gave an account of how Salmond allegedly tried to rape her in Bute House after a private dinner in June 2014.[10][11] She had not mentioned this incident when she first talked to police in 2018. The defence suggested that she fabricated the allegations, which the witness rejected.[10] A second witness present at the dinner in question gave evidence stating that "Woman H" was not even present at Bute House on the night in question.
    Sounds like 'he said, she said' to me. One person said she wasn't there. She said she was. There's no mention of an entire crowd of people being interviewed.

    Another report:

    Jurors were shown a recording of a police Skype interview of a guest who had been there on the night in question. When asked who had been at the dinner, he said there were four people – himself, Salmond, a woman involved in Scottish business, and Woman H, he thought. Salmond’s defence argued Woman H had never been at the meal.

    The defence called the Scottish businesswoman as a witness.

    She told the court she was friends with Woman H but had no “recollection” of her being there.

    And yeah, this guy was no saint from the sounds of it.

    Salmond claimed the second complainer had a “legitimate grievance” but there was never any intention to take things further than a “sleepy cuddle”
    What does that mean exactly? He perved on her while she was asleep?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  22. #322
    The law ensuring anonymity is there to protect innocent victims of abuse from having their name dragged through the mud in public. If a woman makes a vexatious complaint, she foregoes that protection and will be named. There's nothing wrong with that system.

    Further, it's not up to Craig to decide the women are all lying and give enough info to allow them to be id'd, as the court ruled he had done. So fuck him, he basically acts like he's above the law this guy.

    Starts to make sense why he's popping a bottle of champagne at the police station now. It's a pattern of very arrogant behaviour.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  23. #323
    I'll come back to this post when I've refreshed myself properly on the details, I'm not going through this now, but based on my memory this is not anywhere near the full story. I'd be interested to know where you're getting this from, the author of these comments presumably was in court.

    Who knows what "sleepy cuddle" means, but there's a heavy implication that this woman was in bed with Salmond by choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #324
    btw, there's a lot of missing context. There's evidence that there was an active plan within the SNP to ruin Salmond's reputation with sleaze claims, and that Nicola Sturgeon herself is very much neck deep in this messy situation. I'll expand on that tomorrow.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  25. #325
    The impression I get is that he routinely crossed the line with women. Whether that was to the point of a "serious" sexual assault or more grabby-assy kind of stuff, it's better to get him out sooner rather than later if that's how he's behaving. Unless he's a Tory who went to Eton of course, in which case sexual misconduct is obligatory.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  26. #326
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Whoa.
    In 2 consecutive votes in the US Senate, they voted 100-0 (unanimously) to
    A) end permanent normal trade relations with Russia and Belarus
    then
    B) ban the import of Russian oil and gas


    The partisan US Senate voted unanimously with all members present.
    Twice.
    Just WTF.


    Apparently "unanimous consent" is a thing in parliamentary democracy, but I've never heard of it happening in the US Senate.
    I couldn't find a list of when / how often it happens, though. So I may just be ignorant on this one.

    When truth is stranger than fiction.


    If Hollywood tried to put some movie out where the Senate shows up all 100 members to vote and they all vote the same, I'd be all... Sorry, but my willing suspension of disbelief just checked out.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  27. #327
    USA are very well placed to ban Russian energy, since USA has plenty of oil and gas of their own. I think it's something like 5% of USA's energy needs imported from Russia, a figure that American energy companies can easily cover. Europe isn't quite so fortunate, there aren't that many gas reserves.

    The UK is instead going to build more nuclear reactors and invest more in solar and wind. Oh and we're also going to dig more oil and gas from the North Sea, which has outraged the Greta Thunberg cult. Still, if it's coming from the North Sea instead of Siberia, that's less transportation, so slightly greener.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    I'll come back to this post when I've refreshed myself properly on the details,
    I lied, I'm too busy this week to be bothering with actual research. It's not like I'm trying to sell anything. Murray is a man of conscience, getting thrown in jail for contempt isn't changing that. He did nothing immoral and I've seen no evidence to show he did anything illegal either. Even if I found something I felt was compelling, you would just argue about it and we'd get drawn into an argument about it.

    You can think what you like about the guy, he's not my Dad. Insult him all you like.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #329
    Sweden and Finland reputed to be fairly certain to be heading into NATO, according to guy on the radio.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  30. #330
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    They officially announced they will be requesting membership this summer, IIRC.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  31. #331
    I think this is really bad, but I hope I'm wrong. Hopefully this won't result in Russia taking preventative measures before it's allowed to happen.

    NATO or not, I don't think the west can tolerate a Russian attack on Finland or Sweden. So if Russia do respond with military actions, then that seriously escalates this conflict.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  32. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    NATO or not, I don't think the west can tolerate a Russian attack on Finland or Sweden. So if Russia do respond with military actions, then that seriously escalates this conflict.
    One might have said that about Ukraine. The Budapest Agreement (Declaration, or w/e tf it was called), guaranteed their sovereignty.

    Being in NATO is a firm commitment.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  33. #333
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    They officially announced they will be requesting membership this summer, IIRC.
    No official decision by either yet, but I'd say 99% certainty both will apply in May.
  34. #334
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Finland and Sweden will certainly look for security guarantees for the application process which probably takes months. Aid and supplies are a given, troops/direct military involvement likely off the table.
  35. #335
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    You mean the way Russia told Ukraine not to join NATO or Russia would invade, then Ukraine didn't join NATO and Russia invaded?

    Given the facts we already know... I can't see why Sweden or Finland would be thinking NOT joining NATO is more protection than joining NATO.

    Putin can see NATO as a threat to his sovereignty, and that may indeed prove true.
    His assertion that The West is anti-Russian culture is total hogwash, though.
    If he played this differently, he could have gelled public sentiment in the West against NATO and in favor of Russia.
    That could still be done by a charismatic politician with the will to do so.

    Instead, Putin chose violence.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  36. #336
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Well joining, or even just applying to join can be seen as a hostile act by Russia, there's sure to be a lot of pressure put on us during the process. Some think this is unnecessary and "we've been doing just fine being neutral". Luckily those people are fewer and fewer.
  37. #337
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    The only way I see this ending is if Putin AND his second in command go down. Usually the second in command is even more fanatical than the guy he's following. See Maduro in Venezuela
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  38. #338
    wtf is Putin gonna do? I don't know a ton about Sweden's defensive abilities, but Finland has Switzerland levels of defensive bonus points. The only lever Putin has against the Nordic states is the same one he pulled on Ukraine. Ukraine was not anywhere near as prepared as Finland, and look how that's going. He's gonna do that again, twice, while the Ukrainian conflict is still simmering, if not raging?
    You-- yes, you-- you're a cunt.
  39. #339
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    So Ukraine can't join NATO else Putin will invade.

    Ukraine doesn't join NATO. Putin Invades.

    So Finland can't join NATO else Putin will invade.

    Finland doesn't join NATO. Putin ???

    So Sweden can't join NATO else Putin will invade.

    Sweden doesn't join NATO. Putin ???
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  40. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    So Ukraine can't join NATO else Putin will invade.

    Ukraine doesn't join NATO. Putin Invades.

    So Finland can't join NATO else Putin will invade.

    Finland doesn't join NATO. Putin ???

    So Sweden can't join NATO else Putin will invade.

    Sweden doesn't join NATO. Putin ???
    Yeah, exactly-- I don't get how there are people out there simping for Putin still, calling the Nordic state's expressed interest in membership a provocation.
    You-- yes, you-- you're a cunt.
  41. #341
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Sweden has a decent airforce and navy, enough to make things tough for Russia. They seriously lack troops though after ending mandatory conscription some years ago. Finland still has conscription, 100k active troops and something like 1M in reserve, though can't probably arm half that. We have a good amount of artillery too, 2nd largest in EU by some metrics.

    Until Russia pulls out of Ukraine, regroups and re-equips they probably have no chance of winning. Not entirely sure that's gonna stop them from trying, but would think that's unlikely. More likely cyber attacks, blackmailing of politicians, fake news campaigns, all kinds of provocations they can come up with.
  42. #342
    It always makes me shiver to think of how many European countries still have mandatory service. If I had had to spend one or two of the best years of my life in the army during peacetime I would have not been a happy bunny.

    I think by the time Putin is done in the Ukraine, SWE/FIN will be in NATO. I don't think he will attack them, but if he did they're both strong enough to fight a delaying action while we mobilize to kick his botox ass.

    I also heard that one of the problems with Russia's armed forces is that despite having a humongous defense budget, so much of it is skimmed off by corruption that it's not all that well-equipped.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  43. #343
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    It always makes me shiver to think of how many European countries still have mandatory service. If I had had to spend one or two of the best years of my life in the army during peacetime I would have not been a happy bunny.

    I think by the time Putin is done in the Ukraine, SWE/FIN will be in NATO. I don't think he will attack them, but if he did they're both strong enough to fight a delaying action while we mobilize to kick his botox ass.

    I also heard that one of the problems with Russia's armed forces is that despite having a humongous defense budget, so much of it is skimmed off by corruption that it's not all that well-equipped.
    I completely understand your aversion to mandatory service, while I also can see that those years end up being the best years for many. That said, I think I'm pro mandatory service.

    1. so long as nation state level armed conflict is a thing, we need militaries
    2. given 1, unless everyone serves, it'll be the poor that serve
    3. given 2, the disproportionately undereducated are pumped full of pro establishment/status quo propaganda in isolation from everyone else
    4. given 1-3, a volunteer armed forces is prone to erode bonds between lower/working class and middle class, leading to polarization.
    5. as a bonus, it's commonly said that one of the most valuable things gained in college is the connections-- imagine the increase in social mobility if everyone was mixing with everyone for 1-2 years in their late teens/early 20's.
    You-- yes, you-- you're a cunt.
  44. #344
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    I, on the other hand, think mandatory service is simply excellent. It is during these years that you need discipline, and the army is there for that. Plus, mandatory service means you have to be paid, so you can get on with studies later with less (OR NONE AT ALL) student loans as you will be making your own good money early. Plus, as you are in the army, they should teach you money literacy as well because you are literally a captive audience.

    Right after high school at 18, everyone should go to army for two years IMO. Then from 20 on up, do whatever you want with your life.

    from Wear Sunscreen

    Don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to do with your life. The most interesting people I know didn't know at 22 what they wanted to do with their lives, some of the most interesting 40 year olds I know still don't.
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  45. #345
    I think it kind of makes sense if your country is potentially under threat from a bigger, unfriendly neighbor, like Finland for example.

    In the US, two year mandatory service would result in a standing army of about 15 million men if I'm doing the maths right. That seems a bit ott for a country whose military is already op.


    1. so long as nation state level armed conflict is a thing, we need militaries
    See above. I think it's pretty unlikely the US is going to be subject to a suprise invasion by Canada eh.



    2. given 1, unless everyone serves, it'll be the poor that serve
    Well, that does seem bad I guess. Though otoh, in a real war with a real draft you'd hopefully avoid that.



    3. given 2, the disproportionately undereducated are pumped full of pro establishment/status quo propaganda in isolation from everyone else
    So it's better to have everyone equally pumped full of nationalist propaganda?


    4. given 1-3, a volunteer armed forces is prone to erode bonds between lower/working class and middle class, leading to polarization.

    5. as a bonus, it's commonly said that one of the most valuable things gained in college is the connections-- imagine the increase in social mobility if everyone was mixing with everyone for 1-2 years in their late teens/early 20's.
    Depends how many people are in it. If it's well under 1% of the population, as I believe is the case in the US, it seems unlikely to be an issue.

    Also, it isn't obvious to me that an armed forces is a place for social mobility and making lots of friends, at least not on the same level of college. Seems much more structured. If it were a meritocracy, you'd have a stronger argument imo. But most armed forces make the advantaged kids the officers and the less advantaged ones the grunts. That would seem to reinforce those divisions, not remove them.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  46. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    I, on the other hand, think mandatory service is simply excellent. It is during these years that you need discipline, and the army is there for that.
    Some 18 yr olds might benefit from that, but not all of them need it, at least not on that level.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Plus, mandatory service means you have to be paid, so you can get on with studies later with less (OR NONE AT ALL) student loans as you will be making your own good money early.
    If they paid you enough in two years to get you thru 4 years of college, that'd be nice. I don't think that happens anywhere though afaik.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Plus, as you are in the army, they should teach you money literacy as well because you are literally a captive audience.
    They could teach you that without all the running, jumping, saluting and shooting. And when are the female 18-20s learning this, or are they made to serve as well?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  47. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I think it kind of makes sense if your country is potentially under threat from a bigger, unfriendly neighbor, like Finland for example.

    In the US, two year mandatory service would result in a standing army of about 15 million men if I'm doing the maths right. That seems a bit ott for a country whose military is already op.




    See above. I think it's pretty unlikely the US is going to be subject to a suprise invasion by Canada eh.





    Well, that does seem bad I guess. Though otoh, in a real war with a real draft you'd hopefully avoid that.





    So it's better to have everyone equally pumped full of nationalist propaganda?




    Depends how many people are in it. If it's well under 1% of the population, as I believe is the case in the US, it seems unlikely to be an issue.

    Also, it isn't obvious to me that an armed forces is a place for social mobility and making lots of friends, at least not on the same level of college. Seems much more structured. If it were a meritocracy, you'd have a stronger argument imo. But most armed forces make the advantaged kids the officers and the less advantaged ones the grunts. That would seem to reinforce those divisions, not remove them.
    You've taken all the worst parts of what is and criticized them as parts of what I've proposed, only I never did propose them.

    For example, the ranks of a mandatory service armed forces will skew far closer to the center as compared to the rightward/nationalistic skew of a volunteer only military. I do concede that it's possible that while the military would be far less right leaning/nationalistic/conservative/whatever, society as a whole may to one degree or another lean moreso. I don't think that this is a given, but if it is the case, I think the more cohesive society is likely a fair trade off.

    Regarding this resulting in a bloated rank (my math lands at 4-8m. The annual births 18 years ago were right around 4m, so depending on 1 or 2 years service..), the mission can expand, everyone can have basic military training, but a large percent of conscripts can serve their mandatory years doing hearts and minds kind of work here at home as well as abroad.

    Anyways, I could go on, but I'm sure if you cared and were open to a change of mind, you could go back to your post and pick your own low hanging fruit.
    Last edited by boost; 04-18-2022 at 12:24 AM.
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  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    If they paid you enough in two years to get you thru 4 years of college, that'd be nice. I don't think that happens anywhere though afaik.
    Yeah that's not gonna happen. Not sure what the allowance is nowadays (I served 20 years ago), but I think it's still a daily allowance equal to a pack of cigarettes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    They could teach you that without all the running, jumping, saluting and shooting. And when are the female 18-20s learning this, or are they made to serve as well?
    Here it's voluntary for women, but yeah imo it should totally be mandatory for all, or no one.
  49. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You've taken all the worst parts of what is and criticized them as parts of what I've proposed, only I never did propose them.
    You made some arguments for why you think mandatory service is a good thing. I gave some counterarguments. I don't see where I'm putting words in your mouth anywhere.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    For example, the ranks of a mandatory service armed forces will skew far closer to the center as compared to the rightward/nationalistic skew of a volunteer only military. I do concede that it's possible that while the military would be far less right leaning/nationalistic/conservative/whatever, society as a whole may to one degree or another lean moreso. I don't think that this is a given, but if it is the case, I think the more cohesive society is likely a fair trade off.
    Yeah maybe. But if creating a more cohesive society is one of the goals, you could make joining the Boy Scouts mandatory and achieve the same thing at a younger age with much less cost.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Regarding this resulting in a bloated rank (my math lands at 4-8m. The annual births 18 years ago were right around 4m, so depending on 1 or 2 years service..),
    You're right; I goofed there. There's about 10m males and 10m females ages 15-19 in 2019. So 20m. If two of those five years are in m.s., that's 8m. If one is, it's 4m. Either still seems high though (to me). Like I said, there's very little chance the US is going to be under threat of imminent invasion and suddenly be happy they have 4-8m people ready to fight and millions more in reserve. You already have the most OP military in the world, why does it need to be even more OP?




    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    the mission can expand, everyone can have basic military training, but a large percent of conscripts can serve their mandatory years doing hearts and minds kind of work here at home as well as abroad.
    I knew a guy who grew up in Germany during the 80s when they had mandatory service. He chose the conscientious objector option instead, which involved helping out in care homes, etc. That seems more beneficial to society than learning how to kill people.



    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Anyways, I could go on, but I'm sure if you cared and were open to a change of mind, you could go back to your post and pick your own low hanging fruit.
    I'm open to a change of mind, but I'm stupid and need the low hanging fruit pointed out to me. Convince me.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Some 18 yr olds might benefit from that, but not all of them need it, at least not on that level.

    Vast majority would. 18 year olds are generally idiots. Even the most bright among them.





    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    If they paid you enough in two years to get you thru 4 years of college, that'd be nice. I don't think that happens anywhere though afaik.
    Whatever you get paid is more than what you would have gotten with a loan, which is just a burden to start your adult life with





    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    They could teach you that without all the running, jumping, saluting and shooting. And when are the female 18-20s learning this, or are they made to serve as well?

    I never thought about separating males and females. Everyone serves.
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  51. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    18 year olds are generally idiots. Even the most bright among them.
    No argument here. All the more reason to keep them away from dangerous weapons imo.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Whatever you get paid is more than what you would have gotten with a loan, which is just a burden to start your adult life with
    Certainly. But if your plan is to go onto uni, then you either need significant savings or be prepared to take a loan then.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  52. #352
    If someone has a clear career path at a young age and can benefit from training and experience, then no, don't force them into national service. By school leaving age, it's obvious if someone has the talent and fitness to be a professional sports player. Sport should be an acceptable exception to national service. Opposition to military is another, you can't force people to back down against their core moral principles. That's just a shit thing for a civilised state to do. It's not civilised. So a humanitarian option, such as search and rescue training, advanced first aid, things like that, or even a community option like litter picking and park maintenance for the stupid and stubborn, so long as you're not forcing people into the army against their will and principle, or holding talented youngsters back from realistic careers, then ok. Just be civilised and modern about it.
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  53. #353
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    You know that only a small percentage of the military is fighters, right?

    It's almost entirely logistics and support groups - clerks and middle management types.

    Sure, they all went though boot camp, and were trained how to properly use a gun or few types of guns. The vast majority of them will never see "front line" action. They will never be put in a position to kill or be killed.


    Frankly, IMO, every human should be trained in self-defense including how to kill another human before they kill you, should that be their goal.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  54. #354
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    AFAIK, you enter the US military as either an officer or an enlisted soldier.

    No enlisted soldier "becomes" an officer. Not as a promotion, at least.

    You have to go to school to be an officer. Most officers enter the military as an officer.
    There are paths to become an officer if you are an enlisted soldier, but they're arguably harder than an 18-yo joining ROTC (Reserved Officer Training Corps - a college/military hybrid program which upon completing college, you enter the military as an officer.)

    Joining ROTC isn't really that hard to do, but moving up from enlisted to officer requires you to be considered exceptional at your job by your commanding officers, and to be recommended for officer school, then to actually go to what amounts to college to become an officer.

    It's do-able, but it's not the common path.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Vast majority would. 18 year olds are generally idiots. Even the most bright among them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    No argument here. All the more reason to keep them away from dangerous weapons imo.
    My argument is that BECAUSE they are idiots you teach them to become responsible adults in a non predatory way, while also having some national defense in case any neighboring country wants to get cute. It's not due to the fact that they are idiots then we should treat them as idiots and never teach them to become responsible adults, and therefore leaving them to be idiots ad infinitum.

    Not everyone in mil training becomes John Rambo, or is Charlie Sheen in Hot Shots running out of bullets and then shooting people with chickens. You can become radar engineers, mechanics, cooks, etc. You get exposed to these things free of charge and get actual useful skills for the real adult life and get paid instead of being charged for this. Like opening cans, tieing knots, magnetic north, generally useful stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Certainly. But if your plan is to go onto uni, then you either need significant savings or be prepared to take a loan then.
    Yo go serve. You get money for serving. You don't have to get into the loan game, because you understand that you work and get money. Also, ideally, you also saved up by understanding how to deal with money because you had some financial literacy training. Not to mention food and shelter is taken care of free of charge in the military, which is a huge plus as well. Financial literacy should also be something universally taught at a very young age.

    Then you go to the Uni if you want to. Then you go wait tables if you want to. Then you go under the bridge to smoke crack and meth if you want to. You were given a leg up in life and debt free while at it, you decide what to do with it, I can only hope you take correct choices, particularly hen seeing what real hardship looks like, and the fate of other people/places in the world you could come in contact with while serving.

    It's about getting you out of your comfort zone, of parents bubble, of the "safe spaces" LOL , and being thrown into the real world, to see which skills are actually needed/desired, and letting you grow into adulthood without being burdened by instances who would love to have you enslaved. Universities lately have basically become safe spaces, full of fragile bitches who nowadays are trained that if they disagree with someone you have to block them.

    Everything being solved by loans you just pad up those who give loans, and create a modern slave based work force in the process.

    The idea is to get every young adult a leg up in life, without being burdened by the modern vultures who understand the inflection points on when exactly to get them to play ball at their most vulnerable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You know that only a small percentage of the military is fighters, right?

    It's almost entirely logistics and support groups - clerks and middle management types.

    Sure, they all went though boot camp, and were trained how to properly use a gun or few types of guns. The vast majority of them will never see "front line" action. They will never be put in a position to kill or be killed.
    150% correct. This is what the real world looks like.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Frankly, IMO, every human should be trained in self-defense including how to kill another human before they kill you, should that be their goal.
    A bit too extreme but I see where you are coming from. People need to be taught responsibility and consequences of action.
    Last edited by Jack Sawyer; 04-18-2022 at 04:01 PM.
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  56. #356
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    A few thoughts ...

    1) Is nationalism all that bad? If you are going to simp for a country, why not simp for your own? The trick is making sure your country stays within checks and balances, and recognizing and getting rid of corrupt government. I think the trick is that if you are forced into love of country, China-style, then you know something is very wrong and you have to get the fuck out of Dodge.

    2) Which percentage of 18 year olds know exactly, without any shadow of a doubt, what they want to do with their lives? How many of these will take the polar opposite path when they are 25, 32, even 40, with a mountain of accumulated debt, a few kids on the side, and a carful of books they will never even read?
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  57. #357
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    I mean... I know quite a few Chinese people, working in a large, expensive university like I do.

    Their views on their gov't are interesting and very little of what the US media says about China lines up with what actual Chinese people say about their life experiences being from China.

    First and foremost, the US pointing the "human rights violation" finger at China is as laughable as it is absurd.
    Every country has dirty laundry in the human rights dept. The US's prison system is appalling from any perspective, and a travesty of human rights. It has been repeatedly shown that the entire criminal and judicial system in the US has been subtly manicured to disproportionately criminalize, incarcerate and strip the right to vote from specifically blacks, but also many minority groups.

    So, like, perspective helps in understanding why they're so unconcerned about that stuff. Most Americans aren't concerned about the prison system or the fact that many of our laws are designed to persecute US citizens. Grain of salt when judging.


    Also, I work in a university, and I can't exactly speak to student life or life on other campuses, but it's not like the Republican students are being openly persecuted any more than they're also openly persecuting the Democrat students. The faculty tends to be more Dem than Rep, but it's not 1-sided by any means. I don't have any idea what percentage of students are what political affiliation.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  58. #358
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You know that only a small percentage of the military is fighters, right?

    It's almost entirely logistics and support groups - clerks and middle management types.
    Not sure about "almost entirely." I think there's a significant proportion of people actually doing the shooting and getting shot at.

    Not that that's relevant to any other argument here.





    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Sure, they all went though boot camp, and were trained how to properly use a gun or few types of guns. The vast majority of them will never see "front line" action. They will never be put in a position to kill or be killed.
    You're not selling it here....




    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Frankly, IMO, every human should be trained in self-defense including how to kill another human before they kill you, should that be their goal.
    Glad I don't live where you do lol.

    But let's say they should. It doesn't take two years of your life to learn those skills, and the other clerking and middle management skills or whatever else you're being made to do.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  59. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    My argument is that BECAUSE they are idiots you teach them to become responsible adults in a non predatory way, while also having some national defense in case any neighboring country wants to get cute. It's not due to the fact that they are idiots then we should treat them as idiots and never teach them to become responsible adults, and therefore leaving them to be idiots ad infinitum.

    Not everyone in mil training becomes John Rambo, or is Charlie Sheen in Hot Shots running out of bullets and then shooting people with chickens. You can become radar engineers, mechanics, cooks, etc. You get exposed to these things free of charge and get actual useful skills for the real adult life and get paid instead of being charged for this. Like opening cans, tieing knots, magnetic north, generally useful stuff.
    Seems easier just to keep them away from guns altogether. I appreciate that's not possible in every country though.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Then you go to the Uni if you want to. Then you go wait tables if you want to. Then you go under the bridge to smoke crack and meth if you want to. You were given a leg up in life and debt free while at it, you decide what to do with it, I can only hope you take correct choices, particularly hen seeing what real hardship looks like, and the fate of other people/places in the world you could come in contact with while serving.

    It's about getting you out of your comfort zone, of parents bubble, of the "safe spaces" LOL , and being thrown into the real world, to see which skills are actually needed/desired, and letting you grow into adulthood without being burdened by instances who would love to have you enslaved. Universities lately have basically become safe spaces, full of fragile bitches who nowadays are trained that if they disagree with someone you have to block them.

    Everything being solved by loans you just pad up those who give loans, and create a modern slave based work force in the process.

    The idea is to get every young adult a leg up in life, without being burdened by the modern vultures who understand the inflection points on when exactly to get them to play ball at their most vulnerable.
    Spending two years of my life in the army sounds more like getting held back than getting a leg up to me.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  60. #360
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    Yeah, we should stop babying our teens. Whole generations are FUBAR'd because of that shit.
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  61. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Glad I don't live where you do lol.
    Oh?
    So what planet are you on?
    and with what species do you commune?

    Earth and humans?
    Yeah... you live in the same place I do.

    smartass.
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    But let's say they should. It doesn't take two years of your life to learn those skills, and the other clerking and middle management skills or whatever else you're being made to do.
    It takes more than 2 years to learn any martial art I know of.
    Learning to defend yourself from violent humans isn't something you can accomplish in a 2-week crash course.

    I wish we lived in a world without violent humans who want to hurt and/or kill others.
    As long as we do live in that world, let's be frank about it, and practical about it.
    If trusting the police and other state agencies to protect you provides you with a sense of security to be happy and productive, then great.
    For many people, that is not enough. They want a sense of personal security that comes from not relying on outside agencies to provide and maintain that security. That's fine and great, too, IMO.

    Being trained in self defense, up to and including how to defend yourself against murder, including how to kill before being killed if that's what it comes to, is a practical life skill.

    Just look at Ukraine. You can only rely on the state to protect you until you can't anymore. Then you must act to protect yourself.

    It's a harsh world, but ignoring the harshness doesn't make it go away.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  62. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Just look at Ukraine. You can only rely on the state to protect you until you can't anymore. Then you must act to protect yourself.
    While I agree with the sentiment, the pedant in me feels the need to point out that kung fu just isn't going to cut it against armed invaders.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  63. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Either still seems high though (to me). Like I said, there's very little chance the US is going to be under threat of imminent invasion and suddenly be happy they have 4-8m people ready to fight and millions more in reserve. You already have the most OP military in the world, why does it need to be even more OP?
    I'm making a leap here, but I feel like this position stems from "we've reached the end of history" thinking.

    *Current events have entered the chat*

    Following wartimes it is super common to be lulled into complacency. An over powered military can be a bully, and unfortunately that is sometimes how the US armed forces are used, but it can also be a guarantee of peace. Nonetheless, you're right, the US armed forces are already so far ahead of every other nation-- that said, our achilles heal is social cohesion, ergo my complimentary points.

    I knew a guy who grew up in Germany during the 80s when they had mandatory service. He chose the conscientious objector option instead, which involved helping out in care homes, etc. That seems more beneficial to society than learning how to kill people.
    Pacifism is a bankrupt ideology. Not everyone has to be a grunt on the front lines, hell, that would make for a weaker armed forces. However, no matter how much we wish it to not be the case, there are aggressors on the nation state level, and there is a societal prerogative to counter these aggressors. Conscientiously objecting to a specific conflict/mission is a legitimate stance. Objecting to learning the basics, rendering you useless in all potential conflicts does not hold water.

    That said, I think after a basic training and aside from occasional additional training to brush up on and reinforce this basic skillset, yeah, most of the mandatory service members should be doing things like your friend, which further build social cohesion.



    I'm open to a change of mind, but I'm stupid and need the low hanging fruit pointed out to me. Convince me.
    Thanks for this. That line spilled out of my head, then I almost deleted it cuz it's a pretty pithy note to end on-- but the line made me grin and I just couldn't relegate it to my mental dustbin.

    Thanks for letting that one slide and taking my overall message in the much less pithy tone I intended
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  64. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Not sure about "almost entirely." I think there's a significant proportion of people actually doing the shooting and getting shot at.

    Not that that's relevant to any other argument here.

    I think it's quite relevant. A common misconception that shapes people's opinions when this topic comes up is that everyone or most people in the armed forces are front line grunts. It isn't the easiest thing to calculate, because there are plenty of roles that are edge cases. That said, if you look around, you'll see ratios ranging from 7:1 to 12:1, support to combat roles in a modern military. "Almost entirely" is a bit of a stretch, but not downright hyperbolic at 7:1, but it's at home, comfortable and cozy at 12:1
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  65. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I think it's quite relevant. A common misconception that shapes people's opinions when this topic comes up is that everyone or most people in the armed forces are front line grunts. It isn't the easiest thing to calculate, because there are plenty of roles that are edge cases. That said, if you look around, you'll see ratios ranging from 7:1 to 12:1, support to combat roles in a modern military. "Almost entirely" is a bit of a stretch, but not downright hyperbolic at 7:1, but it's at home, comfortable and cozy at 12:1
    I don't think it is relevant if the idea is to train everyone to be a "armed forces personnel", be they a rifleman, pilot, medic, clerk, drive a supply truck, guard a latrine, mechanic, cook, etc.. My point is it's a huge drain on state resources to have large numbers of people learn a bunch of skills they haven't chosen themselves and likely won't ever use again once they leave the military (again, with the caveat that I'm speaking of mandatory service in a country with secure defenses here, of which I'd probably include most if not all of the Western Hemisphere, and large asian countries like India, Japan, China, who nobody in their right mind would try to invade.

    There's other countries where it would also be silly because even if everyone was trained to the teeth, they'd have no chance if a larger neighbor decided to take them over (e.g., Mongolia is not going to stop a Russian or Chinese invasion on their own no matter how much training their population has).

    So if it's a question of security it depends very much on which country you are in. America is certainly very very very very very unlikely to need to quickly field 30 million (or w/e) men and women at short notice. In fact, the list of countries with mandatory service is very small.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service


    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Pacifism is a bankrupt ideology.
    Absolutely. But excessive militarism is a huge economic burden, even if it's done for "good reasons" (and I'll accept that the idea of promoting social cohesion is a good motivation, even if I think there's more efficient ways to achieve it).

    It costs $100,000 to train one single US infantryman. It costs more to train specialists like tankers and pilots. They also need equipment to train in. Unless you want an army that trains in cardboard tanks with toy rifles, you're going to need more guns, more planes, more tanks, more ships (and more pencils, PCs, etc. for the clerks). So what you're suggesting is going to cost well above $400bn a year imo. Are you prepared to spend over $1k in taxes a year for this project?
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 04-19-2022 at 04:17 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  66. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    While I agree with the sentiment, the pedant in me feels the need to point out that kung fu just isn't going to cut it against armed invaders.
    If Ukraine has taught us one thing, it's that tractor > tank, when the tank has no gas.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  67. #367
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    While I agree with the sentiment, the pedant in me feels the need to point out that kung fu just isn't going to cut it against armed invaders.
    You clearly underestimate my monkey-style.


    My point wasn't that basic training amounts to martial arts practice. Only that skills take time to develop.


    It's not like all of the 2 year stint is boot camp, either. Basic training is like 3 months.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  68. #368
    So you want state-mandated compulsory self-defense training?

    I don't actually think that would be bad, but it should prioritise training women in fighting off rapey men. Not joking.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  69. #369
    In less important news than what everyone ITT thinks about mandatory service, Russia has just launched an attack on a 300 mile front in Eastern Ukraine. I really hope this stalls badly.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  70. #370
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Zelenskey claimed that if Ukraine had equal armaments to Russia, they'd have already won this war. That the Ukrainian forces have proven superior in training and effectiveness.

    And since, Canada is sending in heavy artillery and the UK is sending more anti-ship missiles.


    This is so messed up. The entire world allowing Ukrainians to die on our behalf in a fight we clearly all have vested interest in.
    Zelenskey was an unexpected hero, but damn if it's not easy to respect him in all this.

    Don't get me wrong... world war is not what I want, but goddamn... it's like the asshole down the street started killing the neighbors and the rest of the block is all... "I don't want to get involved. He's scary."
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  71. #371
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    If the numbers are remotely to be believed, Russia is losing troops and equipment at rates unseen in modern warfare. Russia is losing troops at rates not seen since WWII.

    The numbers are clearly based on a lot of guesswork and extrapolation by all who chime in with an opinion. I just couldn't figure out the context why I saw a number of different sources making the guesses today.

    Apparently, 15k dead and 35k wounded was the toll of the Soviet's 9-years war in Afghanistan. Some historians say this defeat marks the beginning of the fall of the Soviet Union. It's considered a devastating loss by any account.

    Russia has (allegedly) lost as many units already in Ukraine... in less than 90 days.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  72. #372
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Then there's this absolute gem.
    It clearly says "Signature Unclear" instead of an unclear signature.

    https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1518624438358626304
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  73. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Then there's this absolute gem.
    It clearly says "Signature Unclear" instead of an unclear signature.

    https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1518624438358626304
    Either that or a clever Nazi double-bluff.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  74. #374
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    A Russian poster on a discord I'm on actually spent hours tracking down what that was.

    Turns out the book was recently published by sus publisher and is ghost written under the name Signature Unclear or smth.


    Well, "Signature Unclear" is nom de plume of a small-time neo-nazi writer.
    And the inscription in question was presented as an autograph inside the book by the said writer.


    So not what it was reported as at all.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  75. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    If the numbers are remotely to be believed, Russia is losing troops and equipment at rates unseen in modern warfare. Russia is losing troops at rates not seen since WWII.

    The numbers are clearly based on a lot of guesswork and extrapolation by all who chime in with an opinion. I just couldn't figure out the context why I saw a number of different sources making the guesses today.

    Apparently, 15k dead and 35k wounded was the toll of the Soviet's 9-years war in Afghanistan. Some historians say this defeat marks the beginning of the fall of the Soviet Union. It's considered a devastating loss by any account.

    Russia has (allegedly) lost as many units already in Ukraine... in less than 90 days.
    I'm not sure on personnel loses, but I think "guesswork" undersells the estimates on equipment losses. Equipment losses are being tallied by OSINT nerds whose methodology is there for anyone to double check. Personnel loses are probably going to be hard to gauge so long as the war is being fought, but if equipment loses are reasonably described as "stunning", then it seems reasonable to lean towards the disinfo that claims stunning personnel losses.
    You-- yes, you-- you're a cunt.

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