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*** The Official MAGAposting thread ***

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  1. #7951
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Fun fact - this is a conspiracy theory.
    Yeah, that's why it's so insidious-- I cant remember the details to find a source, but from what I can remember, people are generally only capable of thinking a few levels deep without mapping things out on paper. Which makes sense, it becomes increasingly hard to keep track of the motivations of someone who is conspiring to create conspiracy theories to safeguard their conspiracies.

    Further, it leads to endless rabbit holes of thought, like "maybe it's western intelligence agencies that have floated the conspiracy theory that the Russians have been fabricating conspiracy theories to give cover to their conspiracies, to give cover to their (western agency's) conspiracies." Pretty much an infinite regress that ends in "nothing is true and everything is possible."
  2. #7952
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Some may regard it as one, but it isn't. There's extensive information about Russian disinformation campaigns going back to the 80s.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_INFEKTION
    https://secondaryinfektion.org/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_web_brigades
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN21518F
    https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...rt_Volume2.pdf

    I know you're not gonna read any of those, but the more links I have, the more gravitas my argument has. That's another fact.
    I mean, look, as I said, I think the most obvious distinction is to use "conspiracy theory" to refer to something that isn't yet proven or widely accepted and "conspiracy" for those that have been, but I think it's pretty clear that you're arguing against a meaning that Ong did not intend.

    And again, this is why it's so insidious, because I think the way Ong is using "conspiracy theory" here might be novel to this conversation-- the phrase can describe a conspiracy that at a glances looks outlandish, far fetched, implicative of shadowy organizations pulling the strings, etc. As Ong pointed out, proven conspiracies often are lumped in with unproven conspiracies, making the set, "conspiracy theories," for aesthetic reasons, or by conspiracy theorists to bolster their unproven claims.

    This honestly is a tough subject to talk about for these reasons, and so if we are going to it's pretty important to take MMM's advice and try your best to take the meaning intended by the speaker, and clarify when unsure.
  3. #7953
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Yeah, that's why it's so insidious-- I cant remember the details to find a source, but from what I can remember, people are generally only capable of thinking a few levels deep without mapping things out on paper. Which makes sense, it becomes increasingly hard to keep track of the motivations of someone who is conspiring to create conspiracy theories to safeguard their conspiracies.

    Further, it leads to endless rabbit holes of thought, like "maybe it's western intelligence agencies that have floated the conspiracy theory that the Russians have been fabricating conspiracy theories to give cover to their conspiracies, to give cover to their (western agency's) conspiracies." Pretty much an infinite regress that ends in "nothing is true and everything is possible."
    I was never really on board with the whole Russia thing. There was always some doubt, until that Novichok incident in England. That was so obviously (to me at least) a crock of shit that I could only conclude that the whole Russiaphobia thing was propaganda on our part.

    I'm also in no doubt that Russia are assholes, they've got their agenda too. In fact I kinda lean towards them being allies, and the whole "enemy" thing is to present to the public a strong reason for continued and massive military investment. We don't need nuclear weapons, nobody is ever going to use them. In fact I wouldn't at all be surprised if our nuclear arsenals are massively overstated, with the funding ending up elsewhere. We all know corruption happens, I think it's naive to think it's not happening on a truly massive scale.

    So "conspiracy theory" to me doesn't mean crazy. As for the election, I do think it is a stretch to imagine they can pull off such a massive fraud without anyone being able to prove it. But it's not flat earth nonsense. It's a stretch, but not out of the question.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #7954
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    But bear in mind that the level of actual fraud claims that have been made and pressed by lawyers are stupid.

    One was a charge that when vote-counters were counting Trump votes, they rolled their eyes. Not remotely a crime.

    One was that a vote counter (not polling agent) made a joke that was derisive of Trump. Also not a crime.

    One was that a specific representative of the Trump campaign wasn't allowed to be an "observer in the room" and the judge simply asked, "Was there a representative of the Trump campaign in the room?" The lawyer said, "Yeah." and the judge was like, "You're not entitled to pick who is in the room. If your side was represented, and you're not arguing that representative was compromised in any way, then this case is dismissed."
    (Obv. paraphrasing)

    One was about a 3rd-hand account that someone saw a box of votes that they didn't know whether or not had been counted start being counted. The judge asked, "How is this not hearsay." and the lawyer replied some nonsense, and the judge asked again, and reminded him he was in a court of law, and he said it is hearsay. The judge asked if he had any direct evidence of fraud and he said no.


    These are the level of cases being brought to court. Nothing even suggesting widespread fraud in the specific instances claimed, let alone a state-wide or nation-wide effort.

    An effort at the state or nation scale would require thousands of conspirators in on the act. What's that "law" about the more people in on a secret the shorter the time it takes for the secret to be revealed?

    There were people with cell phone cameras at every polling and vote counting place in the US and there's no flood of hundreds or thousands of videos showing obvious wrong-doing.


    At a certain point it IS the moon landing level of conspiracy. So many people had to be in on it. So many with good reasons to call BS had to keep quiet. At a certain point it's just about the scale. This is tiny, but the claims are huge. It doesn't add up.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  5. #7955
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I was never really on board with the whole Russia thing. There was always some doubt, until that Novichok incident in England. That was so obviously (to me at least) a crock of shit that I could only conclude that the whole Russiaphobia thing was propaganda on our part.

    I'm also in no doubt that Russia are assholes, they've got their agenda too. In fact I kinda lean towards them being allies, and the whole "enemy" thing is to present to the public a strong reason for continued and massive military investment. We don't need nuclear weapons, nobody is ever going to use them. In fact I wouldn't at all be surprised if our nuclear arsenals are massively overstated, with the funding ending up elsewhere. We all know corruption happens, I think it's naive to think it's not happening on a truly massive scale.

    So "conspiracy theory" to me doesn't mean crazy. As for the election, I do think it is a stretch to imagine they can pull off such a massive fraud without anyone being able to prove it. But it's not flat earth nonsense. It's a stretch, but not out of the question.
    Wait, so you were using "conspiracy theory" to mean "unproven and likely not true?"

    Now you've lost me.
  6. #7956
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    But bear in mind that the level of actual fraud claims that have been made and pressed by lawyers are stupid.

    One was a charge that when vote-counters were counting Trump votes, they rolled their eyes. Not remotely a crime.

    One was that a vote counter (not polling agent) made a joke that was derisive of Trump. Also not a crime.

    One was that a specific representative of the Trump campaign wasn't allowed to be an "observer in the room" and the judge simply asked, "Was there a representative of the Trump campaign in the room?" The lawyer said, "Yeah." and the judge was like, "You're not entitled to pick who is in the room. If your side was represented, and you're not arguing that representative was compromised in any way, then this case is dismissed."
    (Obv. paraphrasing)

    One was about a 3rd-hand account that someone saw a box of votes that they didn't know whether or not had been counted start being counted. The judge asked, "How is this not hearsay." and the lawyer replied some nonsense, and the judge asked again, and reminded him he was in a court of law, and he said it is hearsay. The judge asked if he had any direct evidence of fraud and he said no.


    These are the level of cases being brought to court. Nothing even suggesting widespread fraud in the specific instances claimed, let alone a state-wide or nation-wide effort.

    An effort at the state or nation scale would require thousands of conspirators in on the act. What's that "law" about the more people in on a secret the shorter the time it takes for the secret to be revealed?

    There were people with cell phone cameras at every polling and vote counting place in the US and there's no flood of hundreds or thousands of videos showing obvious wrong-doing.


    Most of which we already explained to Ong but apparently the facts are biased too just like we are.

    If large numbers of vote counters start ending up dead in "accidents" I'll sit up and take notice. But the cases they've brought to court have all just been lolbad, like firing a shitgun at a wall and hoping something sticks.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  7. #7957
  8. #7958
    Rudy's star witness in Michigan seems pretty reasonable.

    https://twitter.com/Col_Hardstone/st...95418223390726
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  9. #7959
    oskar's Avatar
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    She's awesome!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  10. #7960
    She was REALLY piissed when they asked her to remove her tinfoil hat while in court.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  11. #7961
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  12. #7962
    oskar's Avatar
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    I wonder if the resident trumpists are still hoping for a miraculous win, or if they died from covid.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

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