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  1. #2476
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    He stated before the election that he thought people who burn the flag should have their citizenship revoked. More recently he has announced to reform libel laws so he could more easily sue newspapers for defamation.
    I was never a fan of that flag comment. Reforming libel laws is kosher.
  2. #2477
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Nobody has the remotest clue how to design a study that can scratch the surface of examining the issue.
    You don't need to design a study. There are innumerable examples from history and other places in the world where employers are not held accountable for discrimination. You just have to look at what happens. That's why Harvest of Shame is a great example. It's in very recent history of the US and it's very well documented. If workers have no rights, they get exploited. As simple as that.

    Or not even history. The very example I linked works. She's not allowed to work because the fact that she has a wife means she's promoting a "homosexual agenda." Of course there are probably other places she could find work, but possibly not without moving to a different state. This case is a prime example why you need anti-discrimination laws, because if you don't, then minorities get fucked.
    Last edited by oskar; 05-25-2018 at 01:27 AM.
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  3. #2478
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    You don't need to design a study. There are innumerable examples from history and other places in the world where employers are not held accountable for discrimination. You just have to look at what happens. That's why Harvest of Shame is a great example. It's in very recent history of the US and it's very well documented. If workers have no rights, they get exploited. As simple as that.
    The purpose of a study would be to find if this sample represents the population. Nobody knows how to design that sort of study on this topic.

    Always keep in mind that data tells us next to nothing about theories in social "sciences".
  4. #2479
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    So we know for a fact that fewer or no workers rights results in very poor condition for workers in every scenario it has ever been tried in, but you say that you are convinced it would be better because you have a philosophical argument for why it works?
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  5. #2480
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Always keep in mind that data tells us next to nothing about theories in social "sciences".
    That's tantamount to disregarding any and all data which doesn't fit your expectations.

    You can't really call it science, even in quotes, when that's your view.
  6. #2481
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    So we know for a fact that fewer or no workers rights results in very poor condition for workers in every scenario it has ever been tried in, but you say that you are convinced it would be better because you have a philosophical argument for why it works?
    Are you talking about worker's rights? or anti-discrimination policies? If we're talking about worker's rights like safety protections and shit like that, then yeah....the gov't should definitely be enforcing that shit. But if we're talking about anti-discrimination policies.....like policies that seek to ensure that groups of races and genders are proportionally represented then those policies most definitely are bad for everyone. Paraphrasing Sowell here...

    Imagine you have a taxi cab company. You want to hire drivers. You screen applicants by checking their driving records and you find that 4 out of 5 Irish applicants have drunk driving convictions. So you don't hire those 4 out of 5 drivers, but you do hire 1 out of 5. But now your staff is not directly proportional to your pool of applicants. Irish people are under represented.

    Now imagine the government tries to correct that "injustice" by disallowing your ability to check the driving records of applicants. Because, they say, that screening policy disproportionally affects Irish people, therefore it is clearly racist against the Irish.

    So now you go hire drivers again, but this time you have to guess who might have a good driving record and who might not. All you have to rely on is group data that says 4 out of 5 Irishmen have DUI's. So now you just don't hire ANY Irish.

    That's a clear example of how an anti-discrimination policy increases discrimination. And it's not just a hypothetical. Obama signed an executive order making it so government subcontractors couldn't use criminal background checks to screen employees for staffing government projects. The argument was that a disproportional amount of young black men have petty criminal records from their youth, and that shouldn't hinder their advancement as reformed adults.

    What do you think happened??
  7. #2482
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Obama signed an executive order making it so government subcontractors couldn't use criminal background checks to screen employees for staffing government projects. The argument was that a disproportional amount of young black men have petty criminal records from their youth, and that shouldn't hinder their advancement as reformed adults.

    What do you think happened??
    Fact check the shit you read on breitbart or the daily stormer, because this simply isn't true.
    Last edited by oskar; 05-25-2018 at 03:58 PM.
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  8. #2483
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Fact check the shit you read on breitbart or the daily stormer, because this simply isn't true.
    The only error I've found is that the order in fact did not affect contractors, just direct gov't employees. My bad.

    The meat of the my point stands though.
  9. #2484
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    No, it's just flat out wrong. They just moved the background checks to later in the application process that's all. Background checks are still done. If you want to argue with me, fact check your shit. I don't care if you're trolling, I don't care if your arguments are dumb, but don't make me fact check your shit.
    Last edited by oskar; 05-25-2018 at 04:26 PM.
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  10. #2485
    Semantics
  11. #2486
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    He stated before the election that he thought people who burn the flag should have their citizenship revoked. More recently he has announced to reform libel laws so he could more easily sue newspapers for defamation.
    Yeah but you don't have to look at what he says, only at what he does.

    And then you have to look only at what he says, not at what he does.

    It's all part of his 3-dimensional chess.
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  12. #2487
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    So we know for a fact that fewer or no workers rights results in very poor condition for workers in every scenario it has ever been tried in,
    The idea that this is known is not true. For every example one can find that suggest one side, at least as many examples can be found that suggest the other side. My point is that each of those are irrelevant because there are too many unknowns, and I know that the examples appeal to confirmation bias.

    Economics is philosophy. It is an argument about resource constraints and math. The empirical work done in economics -- and there is a lot -- is not worth the paper it's written on.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
    That's tantamount to disregarding any and all data which doesn't fit your expectations.
    I disregard data that fits my expectations too. Well, I do that for the most part since I am human and flawed and sometimes accidentally don't. But I try to disregard data as it relates to theory in social "sciences" (because it doesn't relate reliably).

    You can't really call it science, even in quotes, when that's your view.
    I wish they were not called sciences, because they are not sciences. The social sciences being called science has led most of the world astray. The experimental sciences are real science. Things like economics are not science.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-25-2018 at 09:31 PM.
  13. #2488
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Are you talking about worker's rights? or anti-discrimination policies? If we're talking about worker's rights like safety protections and shit like that, then yeah....the gov't should definitely be enforcing that shit. But if we're talking about anti-discrimination policies.....like policies that seek to ensure that groups of races and genders are proportionally represented then those policies most definitely are bad for everyone.
    The principles are not any different for discrimination and safety policies.

    Safety mandates that don't originate out of the employers and employees acting on choice make workers less safe.
  14. #2489
  15. #2490
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Safety mandates that don't originate out of the employers and employees acting on choice make workers less safe.
    Not sure about that.

    If you're working with a highly corrosive acid, then it might not be bad for anyone if there were some kind of rule that requires your employer to maintain an up-to-date library of MSDS's and keep it prominently located in the shop.

    I've worked in some places with some pretty nasty stuff. They all had eye-wash stations. However, in my 20+ year career, I've never actually seen anyone use an eye wash station. So it seems plausible that some corner-cutting company might just skip that purchase. It's highly plausible that a prospective employee would never think to ask about that. It only becomes a problem when there's a real fucking problem. An ounce of gov't regulation can save 100 lbs of eyeballs. So I'm not seeing how you can say that people would be more safe without that gov't regulation.

    Also, it's not just employees and employers that have to be considered. Imagine a truck driver sitting behind the wheel for 90 hours a week. Maybe he likes the overtime, and maybe the employer is willing to pay it because the freight just has to get delivered. But if you're driving with your family, do you wanna be on the same road as that 90hr trucker?
  16. #2491
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If you're working with a highly corrosive acid, then it might not be bad for anyone if there were some kind of rule that requires your employer to maintain an up-to-date library of MSDS's and keep it prominently located in the shop.
    At what dollar cost and what opportunity cost? Each of government and employers/employees/consumers care about safety and they each try to get as much *safety-value as they can. Using the price system and allowing employers/employees/consumers to choose makes the most amount of safety-value.

    Do you propose that bureaucracy is more effective at creating safety-value for employers/employees/consumers than employers/employees/consumers are?

    Also, it's not just employees and employers that have to be considered. Imagine a truck driver sitting behind the wheel for 90 hours a week. Maybe he likes the overtime, and maybe the employer is willing to pay it because the freight just has to get delivered. But if you're driving with your family, do you wanna be on the same road as that 90hr trucker?
    You're right that I should have mentioned the choice of consumers as well.


    *Since economic status depends on the perceived value of those who perceive it, every status, like safety, is thought of in terms of the value it brings. In obvious terms: if it costs $1,000,000,000 to implement a system that saves one life yet other systems would save more lives for cheaper, opting for the former system is reducing total safety even as it is increasing safety in isolated terms. Further, since nothing has an infinite value, not even safety, people can be better off when less safe if that safety costs too much since they would rather have other things instead of that costly safety.
  17. #2492
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    At what dollar cost and what opportunity cost? Each of government and employers/employees/consumers care about safety and they each try to get as much *safety-value as they can. Using the price system and allowing employers/employees/consumers to choose makes the most amount of safety-value.
    You're giving people too much credit for having the information necessary to make informed choices. Would you check to see if a company's MSDS's are up to date before you consider a job there? Are you verifying the adequacy of ventilation and lighting? Are you doing an asbestos inspection?

    We know for a fact that safer workplaces are more productive and prosperous for everyone involved. We know this because we've acted it out for decades and it's pretty much proven to be true. however cutting corners on safety can sometimes prove more prosperous for just one party, the employer. You might say that a free market would prevent that guy from getting good employees and his business would suffer and die because of it. But the fact is, too many people just don't know any better.

    I see it as the government's job to ensure that the marketplace is fair and accessible for everyone. And that means preventing exploitable people from being exploited.
  18. #2493
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    You're giving people too much credit for having the information necessary to make informed choices.
    We are both giving people credit for having said information. You are saying bureaucrats have better information. I am saying that the marketplace, making up the people acting in the marketplace, does.

    We know for a fact that safer workplaces are more productive and prosperous for everyone involved.
    Depends on what it costs.
  19. #2494
    Question for Brits, what has the Malpractice Media said about the latest event with Tommy Robinson?
  20. #2495
  21. #2496
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Question for Brits, what has the Malpractice Media said about the latest event with Tommy Robinson?
    Nothing. They ignore him. Last article the BBC had on him was when he got banned from Twitter.

    If it wasn't for the fact I follow Katie Hopkins, I'd have no idea what you were talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #2497
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Question for Brits, what has the Malpractice Media said about the latest event with Tommy Robinson?
    Never heard of her.
  23. #2498
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Nothing. They ignore him. Last article the BBC had on him was when he got banned from Twitter.

    If it wasn't for the fact I follow Katie Hopkins, I'd have no idea what you were talking about.
    Did he really get thrown in prison for speaking about rape gangs?
  24. #2499
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Did he really get thrown in prison for speaking about rape gangs?
    Seriously what news do you read? What is your source for this?

    In fact before you like that what do you think he got arrested for?
  25. #2500
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    It looks like this is just a complete non-story for anyone outside white-nationalist circles. It doesn't get reported because nobody cares.
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  26. #2501
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    That's a good example of why one should never give details to somebody who is looking for a disagreement. Just state your position and leave it at that.
    I'm not really looking for an argument, however you claimed that "since WW2, the 2nd Amendment protects the rest of the world because of the US military's position"

    It would be nice for you to understand (Or at the very least, know) what is going on in the world around you before claiming this. Because, after all, gun manufacturers are going to gun manufacture, right?
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  27. #2502
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Seriously what news do you read? What is your source for this?

    In fact before you like that what do you think he got arrested for?
    I'm asking you specifically because I don't seek out journalism since it all sucks.

    I merely hear about stuff from non-news sources (that are obviously biased but that's okay since they don't masquerade as "journalism"). So I don't know if it's true.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-26-2018 at 09:42 PM.
  28. #2503
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    "since WW2, the 2nd Amendment protects the rest of the world because of the US military's position"
    That was my opinion, not statement of fact.
  29. #2504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    I'm not really looking for an argument, however you claimed that "since WW2, the 2nd Amendment protects the rest of the world because of the US military's position"

    It would be nice for you to understand (Or at the very least, know) what is going on in the world around you before claiming this. Because, after all, gun manufacturers are going to gun manufacture, right?

    Quite the Freudian slip as "a disagreement" was the word used
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  30. #2505
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    That was my opinion, not statement of fact.
    That unquestionably had to be your opinion, which is actually what fascinates me, the how you can reach that opinion while having all the facts which paint a different picture a google search away

    Please do not take it as a personal attack on you or whatever, as you are not the only individual in the world which holds such beliefs. So, that "you" is more of a collective "you" rather than individual "you". Also, you are allowed to have any opinion you want and express it however you wish, as you guys have the 1st amendment specifically for that amirite
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  31. #2506
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    That unquestionably had to be your opinion, which is actually what fascinates me, the how you can reach that opinion while having all the facts which paint a different picture a google search away
    My opinion is not one that the evidence does much confirmation for or against.

    The opinion derives from a few pieces of well established logic and facts. Mainly the logic that empowered citizens deter government totalitarianism and the fact that the US is the world superpower.
  32. #2507
    In just one tweet, Trump shows that he is improving the world where the Malpractice Media has been making it worse for decades:

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...87893427351553

    Hint: uplift the hero instead of uplifting the villain like Malpractice Media does.
  33. #2508
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Did he really get thrown in prison for speaking about rape gangs?
    Depends who you ask. If you ask one of his supporters, yes. If you ask the police, no.

    He was filming people going into court, and the police came and nicked him for "breach of the peace" and "incitement". That'd be ok if they put him in a cell overnight and then released him the next day. But he was currently serving a suspended sentence for reporting on rape gang cases, and they appear to be activating it.

    Whether you like him or not, he's trying to do his job. Standing there filming people going into court, that is not "breach of the peace" or "incitement", it's "journalism".

    I'm not going to lose any sleep over it though.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  34. #2509
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Depends who you ask. If you ask one of his supporters, yes. If you ask the police, no.

    He was filming people going into court, and the police came and nicked him for "breach of the peace" and "incitement". That'd be ok if they put him in a cell overnight and then released him the next day. But he was currently serving a suspended sentence for reporting on rape gang cases, and they appear to be activating it.

    Whether you like him or not, he's trying to do his job. Standing there filming people going into court, that is not "breach of the peace" or "incitement", it's "journalism".

    I'm not going to lose any sleep over it though.
    What do you think about the UK law that you can't report on events/issues currently at trial?
  35. #2510
    It should go without saying that journalists have a responsibility to report these cases responsibly... ie, treating the accused as innocent until proven guilty, stick to facts, and respecting privacy. idk what Tommy was doing, what he planned to do with any footage, what footage he has published, if he's published names, It's important that any journalism doesn't compromise the trial, and if it does, well that's a pretty serious offence.

    The problem with Tommy is that while he's speaking truth that the powers that be don't want you to hear, he's also a class A wanker. He's a former football thug, he's been done for mortgage fraud, he's been involved with some pretty racist groups, I can't say I really have much time for the guy. I did follow him on twitter though because he's interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  36. #2511
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    What do you think about the UK law that you can't report on events/issues currently at trial?
    I think George Zimmerman would have liked that policy
  37. #2512
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    What do you think about the UK law that you can't report on events/issues currently at trial?
    This isn't true. He got arrested for disturbing the peace. What he does is he takes his little groups to events like this, causes it to kick off as he brings idiots with him and then makes out he's the most innocent person and it's everything against him because he gets in trouble.
  38. #2513
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I'm asking you specifically because I don't seek out journalism since it all sucks.

    I merely hear about stuff from non-news sources (that are obviously biased but that's okay since they don't masquerade as "journalism"). So I don't know if it's true.
    Lol that's funny you don't get your news from news therefore it can never be bias because that's not where you get your news from except it is.
  39. #2514
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Lol that's funny you don't get your news from news therefore it can never be bias because that's not where you get your news from except it is.
    I consume resources that are about as biased as it gets.

    I don't consume much journalism because that medium's air of legitimacy more easily leads astray when its bias manifests (very often).

    The difference here is that when I hear things I know to take them with a grain of salt. Contrast this to the many people who think they are getting credible information because it's from a journalistic new source, when actually they're not.
  40. #2515
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I think George Zimmerman would have liked that policy
    It strikes me as a dangerous law.
  41. #2516
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I consume resources that are about as biased as it gets.

    I don't consume much journalism because that medium's air of legitimacy more easily leads astray when its bias manifests (very often).

    The difference here is that when I hear things I know to take them with a grain of salt. Contrast this to the many people who think they are getting credible information because it's from a journalistic new source, when actually they're not.
    You are outsmarting yourself here
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  42. #2517
    It's always good to acknowledge bias even if the biased doesn't.
  43. #2518
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    There are many types of journalism. I don't mind opinion pieces. My favorite articles in recent times have mostly been Vanity Fair and The New Yorker. Some of the best columns I've ever read were published in Playboy Magazine. I do read it for the articles! You just have to know what you're looking at. If you want your news to be as straight up as they can be, I recommend The Smoking Gun and court docs from .gov sites. Cspan has been more entertaining to me lately than any infotainment show.

    Just because something is biased doesn't mean you can't use it to form an opinion, you just have to do some legwork yourself. Hunter S Thompsons reporting on the Nixon campaign was sublime. So was the political reporting of Christopher Hitchens. Both men showed no shame in their open and unfiltered hatred for the people they wrote about. They did however show a great deal of integrity when it came to reporting the facts, and they were not interested in painting a false picture.
    This is in stark contrast to the reporting of outlets like Breitbart or Fox News. They have a clear agenda. Where Fox would never dare say a bad word about president Trump, Hitchens emphatically denounced Obama's stance on Israel, and Thompson painted Gore as a sheep being torn apart by wolves in his campaign against Bush Jr, who he thought to be the dumbest conceivable president. Time, of course, proved him wrong.

    There is a massive difference in biased reporting and distortion of facts. The $500M loan from the chinese government to a Trump development while the Trump administration is in the midst of trade negotiations with china should be cause for grave concern to anyone. To immediately wave it off as fake news is grossly disingenuous. It is not fake news. Nor are the millions of dollars of undocumented foreign money that were paid into Coen's account, or the fact that the Trump administration repeatedly denied having any contacts with russian representatives during the campaign, denied it in front of congress, and only after pictures of those meetings have surfaced, seems to remember.
    The reporting may be biased, but the facts are not biased, and the facts are cause for concern. To say otherwise is at best massively ignorant.
    Last edited by oskar; 05-28-2018 at 05:19 AM.
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  44. #2519
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    The $500M loan from the chinese government to a Trump development while the Trump administration is in the midst of trade negotiations with china should be cause for grave concern to anyone.
    I think the issue many people have is that reporting on everything has gotten so bad that even stories that look one way on the surface often are not that way in truth.

    I know of zero journalists with any credibility.

    I said this to your Trump quote because, sure, I would like to read about something like that. Yet because my experience is that every time I can think of, the reporter got it wrong, I'm better off by just assuming the next one in the long line of wrong is also wrong.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-28-2018 at 11:46 AM.
  45. #2520
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It's always good to acknowledge bias even if the biased doesn't.
    Speaking of biases

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  46. #2521
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It strikes me as a dangerous law.
    Agreed. But it's addressing the right problem.

    There is a non-negligible percentage of the population that believes Michael Brown had his hands up, begging for his life, and then was shot in the back execution style by a racist cop who got out of bed that day intending to kill a black kid.

    As a result, you had "the Ferguson Effect" where cops wouldn't bother to do policing because they were afraid of a scandal. Murder rates went up.

    Is that really what we consider an acceptable consequence of a free press?

    When NBC doctored Zimmerman's 911 tapes....is that free press? Or is that a deliberate attempt to deceive?

    Should there be consequences for the latter?
  47. #2522
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I think the issue many people have is that reporting on everything has gotten so bad that even stories that look one way on the surface often are not that way in truth.

    I know of zero journalists with any credibility.

    I said this to your Trump quote because, sure, I would like to read about something like that. Yet because my experience is that every time I can think of, the reporter got it wrong, I'm better off by just assuming the next one in the long line of wrong is also wrong.
    Let me rephrase in a language you find more persuasive:

    Journalists are just people. Okay? They're people. Like you and me. We're people. There are good people and bad people. But how many journalists do you know? Me, I know so many journalists, you wouldn't even believe. Many of them are good people. They show their sources. You can contact them on twitter. If you don't believe them, ask them for their sources. They have very good sources. Very, very good sources. Fantastic sources! Just because someone might look at sources differently, doesn't mean the sources are fake news. Okay? Like, you know, projections can be fake news. Doesn't mean the statistics are fake.

    What is happening, folks. And it's sad. It's sad that this is happening. But it is happening. The Trump administration is manufacturing disinformation. We know this. But they're being so vague. They will say things like: Obama founded ISIS, Obama put a spy in our campaign, Democrats are responsible for whats happening to children at our border, Obama was born in Kenya, global warming is a total hoax, the bowling green massacre was covered up by the fake news media.
    By doing this, and by accusing your opposition of the very crimes you are being investigated for, they aim to spread confusion. Right now they need confusion more than ever, because if they cant maintain senate majority until the investigation is finished, there will be noone left to bail them out.
    Yeah I was done half way through. You have no idea how hard this is until you try. Sad.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  48. #2523
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    The $500M loan from the chinese government to a Trump development while the Trump administration is in the midst of trade negotiations with china should be cause for grave concern to anyone.
    "Grave" concern?? Really??? Like this is life and death shit? This alleged conflict of interest is so massive that it could potentially start an armed conflict leading to human casualties???

    If this is what opinions you're forming based on the news you're consuming then your news is clearly coming from a source with a debilitating case of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

    Why is this even a concern at all? What's the worst that could happen. China calls the loan? According to his FEC financial disclosures, $500M is only about 5% of Trump's net worth. I hope China has change for a billion.

    I don't even care about facts right now. I want you to brainstorm and hypothesize to your heart's content and then illustrate for me a scenario whereby the Chinese could use the terms of a relatively small business loan to influence international diplomacy against America's national interst. Tell me how that could possibly happen.
  49. #2524
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Where Fox would never dare say a bad word about president Trump....
    Be careful about presenting stereotypes as facts.
  50. #2525
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Be careful about presenting stereotypes as facts.
    I am unaware of the last time Fox criticized the president in any way, shape or form. Perhaps you could enlighten us on this occurrence if it ever happened, Banana?

    Or is he as immaculate as Jesus himself, therefore undeserving of any criticism whatsoever?
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  51. #2526
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    It wouldn't be a big deal if he disclosed it to congress, which he did not. Since he didn't, it could violate the nobility clause. Lobbying is also legal... which baffles the mind. If done by registered lobbyists, and disclosed, which the Michael Cohen payments were not. If those were honest mistakes through incompetence, then why the memory lapses of everyone involved?
    I've already said a year ago that I'd bet my roll that Trump doesn't finish his term, and atm I'm not concerned about losing all my hypothetical money in a hypothetical bet.

    How many guilty pleas in the Trump camp are we up to by now? Do you even know about those. I have a feeling the news you MAGA guys read doesn't cover all this fake stuff. That's probably a fair cause for concern as well. There's a substential number of people in the US that stand behind Trump... which... ok let me say: I am not proud of my local eurotrash politics. There are so many fucking idiots doing fuck all. If there's one thing about the US that I have huge respect for, it's the people in congress. And I love the fuck out of C-Span because of some of them... however, somehow you got people who rallied behind one of the dumbest public figures ever to become head of state of anything. And those people will clearly not be swayed by facts. There is no amount evidence that could convince them that the person who talks to them like a mall mascot talks to preschoolers, is not the messiah, but someone who never considered anyone's interest but his own. So it will be really hard, and there will be some who snap. You had your taste of that in Charleston.
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  52. #2527
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    Also where the fuck were you guys when Trump was screaming PAY FOR PLAY like a demented donkey over and over again, referring to fully disclosed payments into Hilary Clintons charity that had no financial ties to her campaign. But somehow when Trump directly benefits from much larger payments into projects that are directly tied to his personal or campaign finances, somehow this is now fine?
    Last edited by oskar; 05-29-2018 at 08:18 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  53. #2528
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    I am unaware of the last time Fox criticized the president in any way, shape or form. Perhaps you could enlighten us on this occurrence if it ever happened, Banana?

    Or is he as immaculate as Jesus himself, therefore undeserving of any criticism whatsoever?
    Do you ever watch Fox News?? If not, I'd say that's probably affecting your awareness of what Fox News says.

    Be honest now Jack. How much Fox News do you actually watch. And I mean, you tune your TV to Fox News, and you consume the programming as intended. Watching Trevor Noah narrate clips doesn't count.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/fox-n...s-media-2017-6
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8066646.html
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7817831.html
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuOrgmjibQs
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XcXjoIsZrY
  54. #2529
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Let me rephrase in a language you find more persuasive:

    Journalists are just people. Okay? They're people. Like you and me. We're people. There are good people and bad people. But how many journalists do you know? Me, I know so many journalists, you wouldn't even believe. Many of them are good people. They show their sources. You can contact them on twitter. If you don't believe them, ask them for their sources. They have very good sources. Very, very good sources. Fantastic sources! Just because someone might look at sources differently, doesn't mean the sources are fake news. Okay? Like, you know, projections can be fake news. Doesn't mean the statistics are fake.

    What is happening, folks. And it's sad. It's sad that this is happening. But it is happening. The Trump administration is manufacturing disinformation. We know this. But they're being so vague. They will say things like: Obama founded ISIS, Obama put a spy in our campaign, Democrats are responsible for whats happening to children at our border, Obama was born in Kenya, global warming is a total hoax, the bowling green massacre was covered up by the fake news media.
    By doing this, and by accusing your opposition of the very crimes you are being investigated for, they aim to spread confusion. Right now they need confusion more than ever, because if they cant maintain senate majority until the investigation is finished, there will be noone left to bail them out.
    Yeah I was done half way through. You have no idea how hard this is until you try. Sad.
    I love this. Well done.
  55. #2530
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I've already said a year ago that I'd bet my roll that Trump doesn't finish his term, and atm I'm not concerned about losing all my hypothetical money in a hypothetical bet.
    I propose a 3 month long avatar bet. If Trump doesn't finish his term, you choose my avatar for 3 months. If he does, I choose yours for 3 months.

    You game?
    Last edited by wufwugy; 05-29-2018 at 09:00 PM.
  56. #2531
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Also where the fuck were you guys when Trump was screaming PAY FOR PLAY like a demented donkey over and over again, referring to fully disclosed payments into Hilary Clintons charity that had no financial ties to her campaign. But somehow when Trump directly benefits from much larger payments into projects that are directly tied to his personal or campaign finances, somehow this is now fine?
    You really wanna play this game bro?

    Seriously, for every one of these, I've got four "But somehow it was ok when Obama did it?"
  57. #2532
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    How many guilty pleas in the Trump camp are we up to by now?
    What are they?
  58. #2533
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    one of the dumbest public figures ever to become head of state of anything
    Probable highest IQ since, I dunno, 1789?
  59. #2534
  60. #2535
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    When NBC doctored Zimmerman's 911 tapes....is that free press? Or is that a deliberate attempt to deceive?

    Should there be consequences for the latter?
    This is an issue I'd like to hear viewpoints on from people smarter than me. I have no clue if I think the "deliberate attempt to deceive" should be illegal or not. I don't like it, but I don't have a handle on the most important elements of the topic so I can't say whether or not it's better for it to be legal or illegal.
  61. #2536
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    This is an issue I'd like to hear viewpoints on from people smarter than me. I have no clue if I think the "deliberate attempt to deceive" should be illegal or not. I don't like it, but I don't have a handle on the most important elements of the topic so I can't say whether or not it's better for it to be legal or illegal.

    On one hand, free and independent press is awesome. On the other hand, I'm not sure the founding fathers envisioned something as broad-reaching and persuasive as television news. In this context it has the ability to poison a jury pool. Maybe we really have to choose between fair trials, and free press.

    Ultimately I lean towards having a press that's free to spew whatever spun up bullshit it wants. But when I said "consequences", I didn't necessarily mean legally. I was envisioning something like politifact but actually got people's attention, and wasn't polluted with leftist bias
    Last edited by BananaStand; 05-29-2018 at 09:39 PM.
  62. #2537
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    What are they?
    Popadopoulous - Iffy at best

    Flynn - Miscarriage of justice. I'm really curious as to why.

    Gates - Not a part of the campaign, and his guilty plea is for things completely unrelated to the campaign. We're only talking to him because those unrelated things also involved Manafort, who was part of the campaign, but has been charged with no crime related to the campaign.

    Speaking of manafort...he actually is charged with a number of very serious crimes, of which he may be guilty. According to the evidence used as the original source of Russia investigation, Manafort is the one who had the face to face meeting with Putin and agreed to give Russia favorable treatment in return for some fake facebook ads. If that's true, why doesn't Manafort play his 'get out of jail free' card?

    What could Trump possibly offer him to keep quiet? Oskar's got his hypothetical roll riding on trump not finishing his term. Not to mention the fact that Trump is a 71 year old man who inhales cheeseburgers. Why in the world would Manafort hold out for pardon?

    The other guy who was part of that arrangement with Putin was Carter Paige. According the Steele Dossier, Paige was offered shares of a Russian energy company worth $10 billion for his role in the conspiracy. That nature of that role seems to be yet undetermined. And it seems that Putin stiffed him cause he doesn't have $10 billion.

    Nevertheless, the FBI crawled up his ass for A YEAR and he's not even charged with jaywalking.
  63. #2538
    That reminds me, my bet proposal doesn't apply if Trump dies or removes due to health issues. It has to be impeachment or the like.
  64. #2539
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Nevertheless, the FBI crawled up his ass for A YEAR and he's not even charged with jaywalking.
    Here's an investigation in full swing that has gone unnoticed by some.

    https://themarketswork.com/2018/03/3...ecial-counsel/
  65. #2540
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    And those people will clearly not be swayed by facts. There is no amount evidence that could convince them that the person who talks to them like a mall mascot talks to preschoolers, is not the messiah, but someone who never considered anyone's interest but his own. So it will be really hard, and there will be some who snap. You had your taste of that in Charleston.
    This is some of the most ignorant shit going. Honestly man, is this really what you think of Trump voters? You seem to think that Trump won because he appealed to simple-minded ignorant people, and that there are simply more of them than there are enlightened and informed Clinton voters. You're out of your god damned mind. That snobby superiority is why whoever the dems put up in 2020 will get demolished.

    Repubs wanted to counter the marxist social policies and identity politics ideology that the left was pushing, particularly under Obama. To do that, they put up Mitt fucking Romney and somehow they turned him into tax-cheating Hitler. Obama had a record of abysmal economic growth, ridiculous government spending, and rampant worldwide terrorism, and he beat a choir boy in a landslide.

    What do you think the republicans should have done about that? Run Jeb Bush? Are you high?

    You seem to think that Trump supporters see him as 'the messiah'. That's insane!! That's leftist propaganda to make you feel contempt at Trump voters and moral superiority at supporting democrats. You're not thinking man.

    Trump isn't the messiah....HE'S THE MURDER WEAPON

    We know he's a sexual deviant. We don't care. We know he's got no political experience. We don't care. We know he's not an eloquent, gentlemanly statesman. We don't care.

    We are sick and tired of of being called "deplorable" because we believe in borders and gun rights. We don't want this country governed by socialists tyrants. We're sick of rights being diminished in the name of "equality". We're sick of postmodern idealogues trying to lay all of the suffering caused by inequality at the feet of western capitalism. The solution to that was Mitt Romney. But he bullied a gay guy once in the fifties, so America stuck with the black guy instead.

    So fine. Ok leftists, you turned Mitt Romney into tax cheating Hitler, here's our counter move. How about a guy with massive noteriety, and enough money to not be dependent or beholden to anyone. How about a guy who's already so filthy, you can't sling mud at him. How about we just decide we don't give a shit about adultery, and profanity, and temperment. How about we just decide that nothing terrible will probably happen and we run with the guy who just says the stuff that middle-class America thinks.

    Middle class america thinks "sheesh, why can't they just build a wall and keep this fucking heroin outta here?". So Trump says "Fuck it, yeah, build a wall. Why not?". Middle class america thinks "These newspapers and TV shows seem to have a partisan bias". So Trump says "You're right, that's fake news". Middle class america thinks "I don't like the way the government is spending my tax money". So Trump says "You're right, they're blowing it, here's some back". Middle class america thinks "These ISIS guys are scary". So Trump says "Oh you say I can push a button and they all die? Yeah, give me the button".

    And frankly, that gamble couldn't be paying off any better. Name one objectively terrible thing that's happened as a result of Trump's presidency?

    And the more the left doubles down on the "racist", "misogynist", "fascist", "stupid" narrative, the more sure it becomes that Trump crushes it in 2020.

    If the left doesn't want that to happen they need to admit that they've gone too fucking far. They need to back off the identity politics and post modern social bullshit so that the reasonable left can rise again and get back to representing the legitimate concerns of the working class.

    If that doesn't happen, then set your DVR's for November 2024 when Rachel Maddow claws out her own eyeballs on live TV after announcing the victory of President Elect Hannity.
  66. #2541
    I used to think Republicans/the right-wing/conservatives were very stupid and very bigoted. It's neat how peering behind the curtain has disabused me of that ignorance and cruelty.
  67. #2542
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Name one objectively terrible thing that's happened as a result of Trump's presidency?
    NOT a rhetorical question

    I actually do want an answer to this....
  68. #2543
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I used to think Republicans/the right-wing/conservatives were very stupid and very bigoted. It's neat how peering behind the curtain has disabused me of that ignorance and cruelty.
    Yeppers. FTR has done plenty to expose me to intelligent conservative arguments and perspectives.

    BUT
    Even the informed voices on either side seem to pull out blinders when it comes to accepting data from the other side, which just halts most progress in its tracks.

    When people agree on the facts, whether or not they agree on some grand, ethereal political vision, they tend to find workable solutions.

    I guess when people don't want to find any solutions, they can just ignore relevant data and pretend it's not there.
    Of course, that's a childish position, but it seems the most prevalent, to me.
  69. #2544
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Yeppers. FTR has done plenty to expose me to intelligent conservative arguments and perspectives..
    You're welcome

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    [Virtue signaling word salad....]
    Yawn....
  70. #2545
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    You really wanna play this game bro?
    I wouldn't mind but it seems pointless because I don't defend lobbying. I was just pointing out that it seems hypocritical to attack Hilary for lobbying when Trump also did it, and allegedly a lot more than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You game?
    Seems a bit lopsided since my avatar is awesome, and you'll be happy to change yours once Trump starts tweeting about Hilary from jail.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    if Trump ... removes due to health issues.
    Oh, he will try!

    Honestly man, is this really what you think of Trump voters?
    You're right. It seems unfair to stereotype people based on the group they associate with. To see someone with a maga hat and think: there's someone who doesn't mind if the super rich pay off politicians to legislate based on corporate interest - They don't appreciate that. To ban people from entering your establishment purely for their ideology or party of origin. That's just unconstitutional. To see an america-first flair and assume this is a person who values the ramblings of an uneducated ideologue higher than the scientific consensus on climate science, that's straight up racism. That's a hate crime!


    In terms of directly damaging. I don't know of you care about things that affect people that are not you. His stance on DACA could be massively damaging for those affected, and doesn't seem to have a clear purpose other than appealing to his core voter base. Same with the muslim ban and the unnecessary and cruel practice of separating asylum seekers from their children.

    I don't want to speculate on the potential crimes because that will come out sooner or later. In terms of economy and foreign policy, that's a tug boat, not a race car. I'd give it at least a couple of years.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  71. #2546
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    You're right......That's a hate crime!
    I give your sarcastic rant a 4/10. Do you have a point?

    In terms of directly damaging. I don't know of you care about things that affect people that are not you.
    I'm not falling for this leftist jiu-jitsu man. If you're doing this on purpose, stop. If not, wake the fuck up. You don't get to just declare which policies affect which people so you can cherry pick which opinions matter. For fuck's sake dude, you only need to exercise about 6 brain cells in unison in order to realize that immigration policies affect more than just immigrants.

    His stance on DACA could be massively damaging for those affected
    "those affected". You mean EVERYBODY???? And if I'm not mistaken Trump's stance on DACA was to extend it to 1.8 million people. The Democrats said "Wow, that's twice what we wanted, but we would rather eat rocks than work with you, so fuck off". So GTFO with your whining about what's "massively damaging".

    Maybe some people feel that pissing on the constitution to create DACA in the first place is "massively damaging". But those people are white, so "they're not affected", right?

    and doesn't seem to have a clear purpose other than appealing to his core voter base
    Purpose? Following the law isn't enough??

    Same with the muslim ban
    Right. The heads of US intelligence agencies all got together, during the Obama administration, and invented lapses in the vetting process, and lied about likely sources of terrorist travelers. They did that because they were secretly working for Trump, before he launched his campaign, and knew he would win, and wanted to be ready with racist and mean policy to appease the angry redneck masses.

    And what's so awful about enacting policies that "appeal to his core voter base" anyway? Why is that such a fucking sin? The guy ran a campaign saying "I'm going to enact immigration policies that stop terrorists from coming to America". And people said "That's awesome, we WANT immigration policies that stop terrorists from coming to America". Then Trump said. "Ok, vote for me and I'll do it". And people said "Ok, here's our vote. We're giving you this because we want you to do the things you said you would do".

    I want you, Oskar, to explain to me what logical somersaults you're using to still reach the opinion "Trump shouldn't do the perfectly legal things for which earned votes".

    Do you know what Democracy is????

    and the unnecessary and cruel practice of separating asylum seekers from their children.
    Source? Something's fishy here. Why wouldn't the child also need asylum? Exactly what circumstances create this problem?

    I don't want to speculate on the potential crimes
    Will it? Actually, please do speculate. Tell me about how the Russians would have just minded their own business if Trump hadn't asked them to launch a small-time cyber propaganda campaign. Tell me about how Trump returned the favor by bombing Russia's allies and arming the Ukraine. And tell me how that's all a massive international conspiracy that Trump initiated to exploit America so he could make a few extra bucks renting suites at Mar-a-lago to secret service agents.

    because that will come out sooner or later.
    Sooner or later? Really? Every resource at the government's disposal along with the investigative efforts of every major news publisher on the planet have been positively consumed with the idea of taking down Trump for two fucking years now. AND NOTHING!!!

    At some point you have to open up your mind and entertain other possibilities. Like maybe there are people who don't want to exonerate Trump and would rather maintain the uncertainty of an ongoing investigation in perpetuity. Something like that makes elections easier to win for those people. Saying "We were dead wrong about Trump, he won fair and square", is not something that would make elections easier for those people to win.

    In terms of economy and foreign policy, that's a tug boat, not a race car. I'd give it at least a couple of years.
    In the meantime the DOW is at a jillion points and there's a job for anyone who wants to work. Variance right?
    Last edited by BananaStand; 05-30-2018 at 03:26 PM.
  72. #2547
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Yeppers. FTR has done plenty to expose me to intelligent conservative arguments and perspectives.
    It's good to see I'm not the only one.

    the informed voices on either side seem to pull out blinders when it comes to accepting data from the other side, which just halts most progress in its tracks.
    That's certainly quite common.

    I'd be interested in why that is, or at least what proportion of it is not just humans being flawed. What I'm getting at is that I think there are some real issues with statistics and data in a world of so many unknowns that certainty is low.
  73. #2548
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    there's someone who doesn't mind if the super rich pay off politicians to legislate based on corporate interest
    Lots of people don't like that. The question is stopping it effectively. The Trump crowd is probably the largest crowd in the country who makes positive movement on stopping it. Trump has also made a great amount of positive movement on stopping it compared to predecessors.

    To ban people from entering your establishment purely for their ideology or party of origin. That's just unconstitutional.
    Some of the constitution is better than the rest. The parts that prohibit government from discriminating are fantastic. The parts that prohibit private citizens from doing so are misguided.

    To see an america-first flair and assume this is a person who values the ramblings of an uneducated ideologue higher than the scientific consensus on climate science
    Do you mean the economic climate models that consistently don't pan out?
  74. #2549
    So this happened...

    “Speaking at Harvard University before receiving an award Friday, Clinton was asked a hypothetical. … If Clinton could be chief executive of any company right now, which company would she choose? ‘Facebook,’ Clinton said without hesitating,” the Los Angeles Times reported.
    Obviously follow up question.....Why Facebook?

    Clinton said that she’d want to be in charge of the social media giant because of the immense power it has over the world’s flow of information.
    I recall earlier in this thread some people were confused about what constitutes a "grave" concern. This is one.
  75. #2550
    Fuck I wanna be CEO of Fox with total power. Then I can do the greatest thing a human can possibly do: bring back Firefly.

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