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  1. #4051
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...ropshire-farm/

    https://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...heep-in-field/

    It's only a matter of time until one of these dogs gets shot and then the next day it's civil war between dog owners and sheep herders. Ban dogs! Or sheep! Just whatever you do don't ignore this ticking time bomb!

    (also, pretty sure those dogs are Muslim. Call it a hunch. I can't verify any anecdotal evidence that someone told someone I know, but I know. People are talking).
    From this whole article all I get is

    Six other sheep were injured and had to be destroyed.
    Didn't know robot sheeps were already a thing
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  2. #4052
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    It does amuse me how the word "destroyed" is used instead of "euthanised". It's supposed to refer to a humane act, but "destroy" is not the most humane word. Still, it's very common to say "destroyed".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  3. #4053
    Only the best people.

  4. #4054
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    Triggering libs by defunding special education.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  5. #4055
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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47880064

    Australian Christian rugby player insults gay, saying there's a special place in hell for them. Cue outrage.
    Obviously the media are being racist against him. He holds these views because of religion, he believes what he does because he believes in God and reads the Bible. So to critisise him for such views is Christianophobia, which as we all know is basically racism.

    We should tolerate Christianity's intolerance, because to not tolerate it makes us racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  6. #4056
    ^^
    Um, yeah.
  7. #4057
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    Quote Originally Posted by www.craigmurray.org
    If a Russian opposition politician were dragged out by armed police, and within three hours had been convicted on a political charge by a patently biased judge with no jury, with a lengthy jail sentence to follow, can you imagine the Western media reaction to that kind of kangaroo court? Yet that is exactly what just happened in London.

    To support the persecution of Assange in these circumstances is to support absolute state censorship of the internet. It is to support the claim that any journalist who receives and publishes official material which indicates US government wrongdoing, can be punished for its publication. Furthermore this US claim involves an astonishing boost to universal jurisdiction. Assange was nowhere near the USA when he published the documents, but nonetheless US courts are willing to claim jurisdiction. This is a threat to press and internet freedom everywhere.
    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...tory-trembles/
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  8. #4058
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    To support the persecution of Assange in these circumstances is to support absolute state censorship of the internet.
    Requoting this particular sentence for emphasis.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  9. #4059
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    The allegations against him are currently... published facts, he used the embassy for spying, he didn't look after his cat, he stinks, he played loud music, he's a rapist...

    Oh, and he's "narcissistic", says the judge who tried him. That's either based on him saying "not guilty" twice and asking why the charges have been changed, or because the judge is the very definition of prejudiced.

    What we're seeing here is the persecution of journalists who publish harmful facts about powerful states.

    But it's ok, because he didn't look after his cat. What kind of wanker doesn't look after his cat?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  10. #4060
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    I think wikileaks was hugely problematic because something like wikileaks should not have a political agenda. If you're communicating with political campaigns on how to release information to inflict the most damage to their opponents, that's a big yikes. But it's really important to differentiate between Assange the asswipe and wikileaks as a propaganda tool, and the wikileaks of corruption and war crimes that would have otherwise been buried.

    I am extremely worried about the precedent and about what it will do to journalism. All major news networks rely heavily on leakers for most stories that are worth reporting. If now not only the person leaking, but the outlet publishing the leak can be prosecuted... they'll think twice before publishing anything that's damaging to the parties in power.

    With Reality Winner doing 7 years for leaking something incredibly benign, Chelsea Manning still in jail for refusing to testify against Assange even after having been pardoned herself, and Julian Assange probably getting a ridiculous sentence as well... journalists will be justifiably afraid to publish any leaks, especially if they go against the party in power.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  11. #4061
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    Oh, btw Ong, I specifically remember you disagreeing with me when I said all Trump supporters are necessarily some sort of mentally handicapped, right?

    Now, remember when Trump said he's building a wall and anyone opposed to that wall is for open borders and open borders are the worst. Now he's suggesting you take immigrants from the border, you don't process them, and then you release them into sanctuary cities. That is literally open borders. Trump supporters went from: nothing but a beautiful concrete wall will do to: Open borders to own the libs.

    Can I get a concession. How are they not all retarded? How is that even up to debate at this point?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  12. #4062
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    https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/...e_to_face_the/

    So after every democratic member of congress has stated they are against open borders, Trump does open borders which is "what they wanted" and anyone opposed to open borders is a nazi...
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  13. #4063
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    I am extremely worried about the precedent and about what it will do to journalism.
    I'm pleased to see you say this. This is much bigger than any one individual. If Assange loses his fight, then that is the death of freedom of press.

    I think wikileaks was hugely problematic because something like wikileaks should not have a political agenda.
    How can it not have a political agenda? When you're exposing a presidential candidate, you're de facto interfering with an election, even if the motivation is not directly political. I doubt Assange would give a fuck who's the president of USA, not unless he's being paid to care about such things. For me, Assange's motivation is journalism... truth, a desire to see good prevail in the world, and probably a healthy dose of self importance. Whether he's an asswipe or not is completely irrelevant. Although, it has to be said, such an opinion is formed from what you've read about him in the clearly biased and compromised press. That is the very definition of prejudice. A preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. Let me remind you he has only actually been proven guilty of breaching bail. That's hardly "asswipe" territory. So tell me, why do you think he's an asswipe?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  14. #4064
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    Oh, btw Ong, I specifically remember you disagreeing with me when I said all Trump supporters are necessarily some sort of mentally handicapped, right?
    It's something of a sweeping statement, considering the sheer number of people who do actually support Trump.

    Now he's suggesting you take immigrants from the border, you don't process them, and then you release them into sanctuary cities. That is literally open borders. Trump supporters went from: nothing but a beautiful concrete wall will do to: Open borders to own the libs.

    Can I get a concession. How are they not all retarded? How is that even up to debate at this point?
    This is crazy, I have no idea what's going on. I don't actually immerse myself in American politics, I'd rather spend my time watching physics videos or comedy. You'll need to have this conversation with someone with more appetite than me, I'm afraid. Shame banana got banned, he'd engage with you here. Or wuf, though he'd just say "3D chess". I have no idea why Trump would go from "build the wall" to "open borders", it makes no sense. There must be more to it than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  15. #4065
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    You were the one who told me he wasn't taking care of his cat.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/u...y-clinton.html
    That's the shady part - strategically timing the release to make it less likely for Bernie supporters to go out and vote for Hillary... but again: this is a completely different issue than the one he was arrested for and I don't think he should be extradited or even be forced to live in a shitty embassy.

    I'd rather spend my time watching physics videos or comedy.
    I don't like comedy. I don't think it's funny.
    Last edited by oskar; 04-15-2019 at 08:00 AM.
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  16. #4066
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    You were the one who told me he wasn't taking care of his cat.
    Haha that's why he's an asswipe? I'm about as reliable a source as the source I got that from. I'm simply repeating what's being said about him by the likes of the Ecuador president and the press. They say things like that because everyone loves animals, nobody wants to support a guy who can't even look after a cat, or wipe his arse properly. It's all smear. No pun intended.

    He timed his release to influence Bernie supporters? Should he have waited? Seems like a wholly appropriate time to release such information.


    I don't like comedy. I don't think it's funny.
    This is a poor attempt at comedy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  17. #4067
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    You are a poor attempt at comedy.

    Assange did wait. That's the point. He also (or somebody close to him) told Dumbo Jr exactly what to tweet, and when to tweet it for maximum impact. https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald...-conversations
    This is all old news.
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  18. #4068
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    Ok well regardless, he's still nowhere near as political as the state controlled media, who happily chirp the official line without regard for actual journalism, like asking tough questions, and investigative journalism with no political bias. I really don't know what Assange's motivations are, essentially it doesn't matter. Publishing facts should never be a crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  19. #4069
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Publishing facts should never be a crime.
    We're still talking about humans, right? 'Cause that statement is absurd if we're talking about humans.

    Publishing troop movements or military plans is just one simple example of a case where publishing facts not only is but also should be treason.

    There are plenty of other examples.
    It's great to want people to all get along and not have murderous rivalries, but that's not how humans behave. It's not how nations relate. It not how businesses operate (with the murder being of a competitive business, not the people in that business).
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  20. #4070
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    Case in point: when wikileaks didn't redact the names of afghan informants.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-rights-groups

    There's a lot of bad shit going on with Assange... but none of that is what they're trying to extradite him for. They're trying to get him on completely phony hacking charges related to Chelsea Manning. They want him because he exposed US war crimes. Posting videos of US soldiers sport shooting afghan civilians from a helicopter did not fly with the pentagon. He should be protected at all cost. Especially now that america has a fascist in the white house.
    Last edited by oskar; 04-15-2019 at 11:23 AM.
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  21. #4071
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Publishing troop movements or military plans is just one simple example of a case where publishing facts not only is but also should be treason.
    Fair point, but I hope you're not going to compare the publishing of troop movements in wartime with exposing the corruption of a presidential candidate. You're right though, my language was not the best, there are exemptions. This isn't one of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  22. #4072
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    I don't really care about Assange's role in this. I do think he was clearly partisan and it's very bad journalism to be in communication with the opposing party about how they can most effectively use the story you're about to release for maximum impact in their political campaign, but that's a completely separate topic from the thing that's going on now.
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  23. #4073
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    There's a lot of bad shit going on with Assange... but none of that is what they're trying to extradite him for. They're trying to get him on completely phony hacking charges related to Chelsea Manning.
    As far as I can tell, they've stopped using the word "hacking" because now everyone knows it was Chelsea, everyone knows it's a leak, not a hack, which I was pointing out long ago while you guys mocked my source, who is currently on Team Wikileaks, preparing to defend Julian.. They're now trying to argue that he colluded with Chelsea to break into computer systems, rather than him simply acting as a conduit.

    They want him because he exposed US war crimes. Posting videos of US soldiers sport shooting afghan civilians from a helicopter did not fly with the pentagon. He should be protected at all cost.
    Yep and yep.

    Especially now that america has a fascist in the white house.
    Do you know what fascism is? Take a look at Spain, beating up grannies who tried to vote in a referendum the state declared illegal. Spain is still under the influence of Franco, long after his death. That's the closest thing we have to a fascist state in the Western world. America, sorry but nope. They can vote, they can own guns, they can protest at Trump without recriminations, which they regularly do. USA is far from fascist. There isn't a fascist in the White House, at worst it's an idiot who says dumb shit. He doesn't have enough power to be fascist, the American public wouldn't tolerate true fascism.

    Don't water down terms like "fascist" to smear people whose ideology you find unappealing.

    Case in point: when wikileaks didn't redact the names of afghan informants.
    What would be the point? Once their names are published, it's too late. Redacting won't do anything, Lots of people immediately copy anything Wikileaks uploads, anyone who actually wanted to hurt Afghan informant will not be deterred by redaction. If it's such a problem, then USA should protect their informants. That's not Wikileaks' job.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  24. #4074
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I don't really care about Assange's role in this. I do think he was clearly partisan and it's very bad journalism to be in communication with the opposing party about how they can most effectively use the story you're about to release for maximum impact in their political campaign, but that's a completely separate topic from the thing that's going on now.
    Yeah no arguments here. It's refreshing that you're capable of separating the issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  25. #4075
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    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...82316557000704

    This whole thing is completely insane. Apparently "CAIR was founded after 9/11 because they recognized that some people did something and that all of us were starting to lose access to our civil liberties." is a HATE statement - all caps. And this



    is the appropriate reaction.

    This is one of Trumps most liked tweets in 2019: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...17144006750209
    This is a smash hit with his demographic. Meanwhile "these are not people, these are animals" comments barely make headlines. It appears he's actively looking for his next christchurch shooter.
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  26. #4076
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    "CAIR was founded after 9/11 because they recognized that some people did something and that all of us were starting to lose access to our civil liberties."
    This statement is patently false. CAIR were founded in 1994.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  27. #4077
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    What would be the point? Once their names are published, it's too late. Redacting won't do anything, Lots of people immediately copy anything Wikileaks uploads, anyone who actually wanted to hurt Afghan informant will not be deterred by redaction. If it's such a problem, then USA should protect their informants. That's not Wikileaks' job.
    Maybe redact before you publish?

    Trump america ticks most checkboxes of dictionary definition fascism... not that they didn't tick a lot of boxes before. It is not quite a dictatorship, but it is a false democracy. It is a clear two class society, it is an imperial power that fights for economic position through illegal wars, it supports terrorists and none of this has stopped with Trump. There are leaks of open conversations of Trump saying he wants to invade venezuala for their oil
    https://www.vox.com/world/2019/2/20/...r-oil-lawrence,

    he puts war criminals in charge of foreign policy,
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...raymond-bonner

    but most importantly he dehumanizes immigrants daily.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us...als-not-people

    And it obviously doesn't matter what he is guilty of because he cannot be prosecuted since he owns the DOJ now and the SDNY cannot indict him.
    I know this is an overused meme by now, but imagine for a second if Hilaries appointed head of the DOJ buried all the benghazi docs and only published a 4 page letter which is somehow not a summary but merely an opinion in his own words that Hillary is totally exonerated. Every republican's head would explode. This is not normal.
    Last edited by oskar; 04-15-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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  28. #4078
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This statement is patently false. CAIR were founded in 1994.
    Your point being?
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  29. #4079
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    Trump america ticks most checkboxes of dictionary definition fascism... not that they didn't tick a lot of boxes before.
    Let's explore this.

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical, right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism,[1][2][3][4] characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy,[5] which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[6]
    Authoritarian. Let's start with this, it's a key word with regards to fascism. How is USA more authoritative than it was under previous presidents? What laws have been passed which limits people's freedom? How is the state exerting more authority than it was?

    Dictatorial? Take a look at North Korea. That's a dictatorship. Does anyone in politics or the press challenge the Authority of Kim? If they do, they die. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is not happening in USA. From where I'm sitting, Trump is relentlessly being challenged. He is not a dictator, again you're incorrectly using powerful words to describe leaders you don't like.

    Forcible oppression of opposition... nope. Well, with two notable exceptions... Chelsea and Julian.

    Regimentation? That's strict control of behaviour. North Korea, not USA.

    Ultranationalism... maybe this box is ticked, but it's the only one.

    Trump is not a fascist.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  30. #4080
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    It is not quite a dictatorship, but it is a false democracy.
    Most democracies are false. The one we have certainly is. We're still in the fucking EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  31. #4081
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    it is an imperial power that fights for economic position through illegal wars
    Imperial does not mean fascist.

    it supports terrorists and none of this has stopped with Trump.
    Agreed, but again, not fascism.

    There are leaks of open conversations of Trump saying he wants to invade venezuala for their oil
    Please learn the difference between fascism and imperialism.

    but most importantly he dehumanizes immigrants daily
    Not fascism.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  32. #4082
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    Picking a minority group to demonize is a pretty big meme with fascists. As is imperialism.

    No country ever just stumbled into fascism. It's a slow boil. Calling the press the enemy of the people. Calling all press that is in any way negative towards the leadership fake. The complete loss of the power of oversight by congress - The DOJ is not complying with oversight, IRS is not complying with oversight, McConnell is blocking house oversight. SDNY has outstanding charges on the Trump foundation but cannot indict because all the major players have positions in the white house. This is authoritarianism. The mechanics that are supposed to keep a corrupt leader in check are in place, but they are not working because the crucial positions are compromised.
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  33. #4083
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Most democracies are false. The one we have certainly is. We're still in the fucking EU.
    America is not, by and large, "a democracy," rather it's a democratic republic.
    By and large, we do not vote on our laws; we vote for the people who vote for us.
    By and large, we do not vote for our civil officials; we vote for the people who appoint those officials.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  34. #4084
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    Picking a minority group to demonize is a pretty big meme with fascists. As is imperialism.
    They're hardly exclusive to fascists, and certainly don't define fascism. Having a large military is a trademark of fascism, so does that make India fascist? How about South Korea?

    Hitler was an artist. So if I paint a picture, am I a Nazi?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  35. #4085
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    America is not, by and large, "a democracy," rather it's a democratic republic.
    By and large, we do not vote on our laws; we vote for the people who vote for us.
    By and large, we do not vote for our civil officials; we vote for the people who appoint those officials.
    This describes most "democracies". Switzerland is the only exception I can immediately think of.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  36. #4086
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Most democracies are false. The one we have certainly is. We're still in the fucking EU.
    Do you mean because they realized all of their options were shit, and so put off leaving the EU? That's the simplest explanation.

    Another not-so-subtle point is that public opinion has shifted towards Remain once people became educated on how bad economically leaving the EU would be.

    "But, hurr durr we had a referendum 3 years ago that Leave barely won and nothing else matters." This refrain is really dumb. it's like saying we had an election a few years ago and so no-one can ever change their minds and vote for a different party now - the die is cast.

    Brexit is not an inevitable outcome of a non-binding referendum.
  37. #4087
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    No country ever just stumbled into fascism. It's a slow boil.
    This is better. You're right about this. Does trump have the potential to be a fascist? Perhaps, but just because Trump isn't a very nice man, that doesn't make him a fascist.

    Calling the press the enemy of the people.
    Yeah I mean this is obviously in the context of politically biased press, which would make it true.

    Calling all press that is in any way negative towards the leadership fake.
    I think it refers to politically biased press, I don't have a problem with the term "fake news" to describe things like Russiagate and most of the other bollocks I see published about Trump.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  38. #4088
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    Do you mean because they realized all of their options were shit, and so put off leaving the EU? That's the simplest explanation.
    Leaving without a deal is a better option than the shitfest we're being served up.

    Another not-so-subtle point is that public opinion has shifted towards Remain once people became educated on how bad economically leaving the EU would be.
    I doubt it. Remember how the polls told everyone how Clinton would win and we'd vote to remain? Biased press. Leave will win another referendum, if it happens, which it shouldn't and won't.

    "But, hurr durr we had a referendum 3 years ago that Leave barely won and nothing else matters." This refrain is really dumb. it's like saying we had an election a few years ago and so no-one can ever change their minds and vote for a different party now - the die is cast.
    Referenda are expensive and divisive. You don't keep having them. Are you in favour of Scotland having another vote this year?How about in another three years? How about they keep voting until they vote "yes" and then stop voting? Is that your idea of democracy?

    Brexit is not an inevitable outcome of a non-binding referendum.
    Of course it's inevitable, and of course the referendum is binding, at least in the real sense if not legal. If we don't leave, the Tories will not win an election for a long time. That's surely scarier than leaving the EU, isn't it? I'm no fan of the Tories, but a decade or two of socialist Labour isn't particularly appealing.

    Leaving without a deal is a great deal more likely than Brexit being cancelled.
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    It strikes me that it sets a pretty bad precedent to have a public vote on a policy, then to just ignore the vote and not do the thing they voted for.
    It may be the best option, though.

    The whole Ireland problem seems like a pretty big deal. Whole lotta tanks and bombs and bombs and guns historically associated with dividing Ireland. It doesn't mean that's going to happen again, but Brexit necessarily imposes import/export BS onto the island again... I've not heard anyone talk about it thinking that will just resolve itself.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  40. #4090
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    Notre-Dame Cathedral is on fire. The spire appears to have collapsed, the cathedral looks like it will be ruined. This comes after several weeks of church fires in France.

    If this is a deliberate act, it's very, very bad. Especially if it's religiously motivated. I really do hope it is not.
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  41. #4091
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    They're hardly exclusive to fascists, and certainly don't define fascism. Having a large military is a trademark of fascism, so does that make India fascist? How about South Korea?

    Hitler was an artist. So if I paint a picture, am I a Nazi?
    Ong, please stop! You're DESTROYING me with FACTS and LOGIC!

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Yeah I mean this is obviously in the context of politically biased press, which would make it true.
    I don't think there's a relevant outlet that Trump didn't call fake or the enemy of the people. He specifically called CNN and the NYT the enemy of the people. CNN! Gotta-call-Ilhan-Omar-an-antisemite-traitor-to-be-impartial - CNN. Let's-invite-a-creationist-to-a-science-debate - CNN. I don't think there's an outlet that isn't owned by Rupert Murdoch that gets his approval.

    Most of the time when he attacks the media, he attacks them for reporting facts. The things that you could summarize under "russiagate" are few and far between and are necessarily backed by sources. Most of the things that the Trump campaign is accused of are completely out in the open. For some reason it apparently doesn't rise to the level of criminality in the eyes of the FBI, so I'll let it go because it won't go anywhere - especially since it's very unlikely that the unredacted Mueller report will be seen by the public before the 2020 election, so that seems like a really bad horse to bet on atm.
    Last edited by oskar; 04-15-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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  42. #4092
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    It strikes me that it sets a pretty bad precedent to have a public vote on a policy, then to just ignore the vote and not do the thing they voted for.
    It may be the best option, though.

    The whole Ireland problem seems like a pretty big deal. Whole lotta tanks and bombs and bombs and guns historically associated with dividing Ireland. It doesn't mean that's going to happen again, but Brexit necessarily imposes import/export BS onto the island again... I've not heard anyone talk about it thinking that will just resolve itself.
    I doubt very much we'll see a return to war, whatever happens with Brexit. The Ireland problem is a problem, but I suspect that if the EU enforce a hard border between UK and RoI, then Ireland will simply leave the EU. They came close in the past, it took two referenda if I recall correctly.
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  43. #4093
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    Most of the time when he attacks the media, he attacks them for reporting facts.
    I have no idea what constitutes "facts" any more when we talk about the mass media, but if the word "Russia" is uttered, I assume it's not a fact. I realise sometimes I'll be wrong, but I'm playing the numbers game there.
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  44. #4094
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    You have probably noticed by now that Trump never says anything specific. All the attacks on the media go like: "They have treated us very unfairly and there are some very bad people and they do very bad things. It is a disgrace, and it's so bad for the american people. The fake news media - I call them - are so dishonest, they truly are the enemy of the people." Stuff like that. So there's no way to tell what he's talking about, which, if you ask Wuf means that he's the smartest man alive, me personally I have a different theory, but either way: this just means whatever it means to whoever is listening. The actual content of what he says is that broadly speaking, regardless of reporting, the media are the enemy of the people, except of course, the only outlet that will spin every single story in his favor and that is everything owned by Rupert Murdoch, One America News and Stormfront.
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  45. #4095
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I have no idea what constitutes "facts" any more when we talk about the mass media, but if the word "Russia" is uttered, I assume it's not a fact. I realise sometimes I'll be wrong, but I'm playing the numbers game there.
    Some of the biggest breaks in the russia storyline came because one of his dumbfuck familiy members tweeted it out or because his geriatric TV lawyer blurted it out on live TV. You can literally source it back to official communication of his own inner circle.
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  46. #4096
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    Murdoch is a major player in the mass media, and certainly cannot be trusted over any other source.

    Some of the biggest breaks in the russia storyline came because one of his dumbfuck familiy members tweeted it out or because his geriatric TV lawyer blurted it out on live TV. You can literally source it back to official communication of his own inner circle.
    Well these people obviously haven't said anything that confirms the wild allegations of collusion in the context that people throw that word about, because Trump is still president. Whatever "collusion" happened is well within the norms of geopolitics and within the limits of law.

    This sums up my understanding of the Russia thing. Please feel free to explain what's wrong with this meme...

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  47. #4097
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Notre-Dame Cathedral is on fire. The spire appears to have collapsed, the cathedral looks like it will be ruined. This comes after several weeks of church fires in France.

    If this is a deliberate act, it's very, very bad. Especially if it's religiously motivated. I really do hope it is not.
    Police are treating NDC fire as 'accidental'. There was scaffolding around it and apparently it was being worked on.

    Other 10 fires in churches in FR seems a bit much for a coincidence though. Some of them had satanic symbols drawn on them. Nothing about Allah, sorry.
  48. #4098
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Leaving without a deal is a better option than the shitfest we're being served up.
    I don't think you understand how good it is to be in an economic union and how bad it is to be isolated from one in terms of trade.

    Imagine you're a company who wants to build widgets. Caveat emptor, would you rather put your factory in a market with 1x labor and 1x consumers, or 5x labor and 5x consumers? It's not hard to see why companies are already pulling out of the UK pre-Brexit.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I doubt it. Remember how the polls told everyone how Clinton would win and we'd vote to remain? Biased press. Leave will win another referendum, if it happens, which it shouldn't and won't.
    Results of first referendum were within margin of error. Polls don't tell you who is going to 'win', like there's a magical line at 50%. They give you an estimate +/- a few %.

    Latest polls have it about 60/40 Remain. That's not even close.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Referenda are expensive and divisive. You don't keep having them.
    Then why have any?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Are you in favour of Scotland having another vote this year?How about in another three years? How about they keep voting until they vote "yes" and then stop voting? Is that your idea of democracy?
    It's up to them; they can have as many referenda as they want. Times change and so do opinions.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Is that your idea of democracy?
    It seems better than the idea that the populace only ever gets one point in time to make a monumental decision at, and if they get more information and change their minds, tough shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Leaving without a deal is a great deal more likely than Brexit being cancelled.
    Maybe. we'll see.
  49. #4099
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    idk what russiagate is. The Mueller investigation looked into russian election interference, which they found and there's a lot about that on public record and is disputed by pretty much noone. They looked into campaign ties which existed: Corsi, Stone, Manafort, Trump Jr, Kushner all had contacts with russians in regards to the DNC hack. They all lied about it or went the "do not recall" route. In addition the FBI looked into obstruction of justice regarding the russia investigation which they found to be inconclusive - report is said to be out this Thursday, I'm gonna be cynical and predict that you haven't seen that many black pages since... erm... the Notre Dame hymn books. Trying to be topical.
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  50. #4100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Police are treating NDC fire as 'accidental'. There was scaffolding around it and apparently it was being worked on.

    Other 10 fires in churches in FR seems a bit much for a coincidence though. Some of them had satanic symbols drawn on them. Nothing about Allah, sorry.
    I did see that there was construction going on, but it's way too early for anyone to know if that's the cause.

    And I think you've got me all wrong. I don't fucking want it to be Muslims. Do you think that anyone who has a problem with their backwards religion is just itching for a full scale religious war? I can assure you I'm not. I would like nothing more than for everyone to get along.

    Satanists, huh? Imagine if I said that I didn't approve of foreign Satanists coming to live in England. Oh wait, I did, and you guys still think it's all about brown skin.
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  51. #4101
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    I don't think you understand how good it is to be in an economic union and how bad it is to be isolated from one in terms of trade.
    I don't think you understand how much bigger the rest of the world is compared to Europe. Currently, we can't agree bilateral trade deals with USA, China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Brazil...

    Also, the EU is a great deal more than an economic bloc.

    Imagine you're a company who wants to build widgets. Caveat emptor, would you rather put your factory in a market with 1x labor and 1x consumers, or 5x labor and 5x consumers? It's not hard to see why companies are already pulling out of the UK pre-Brexit.
    There's this belief that if a company fucks off, that's bad. Well it's not bad for whichever local company fills the void in the market. I don't give a fuck about companies that leave for greater profits elsewhere. Fuck them. I'm not a globalist, I'd prefer companies in this country to be owned by British people who have no intention of taking their business elsewhere because this is their home.

    Latest polls have it about 60/40 Remain. That's not even close.
    Do you know what the odds were for Brexit about an hour before the polls opened? Around 4/1.

    That's 80/20.

    Then why have any?
    Because sometimes they are necessary. Why are you asking stupid questions?

    It's up to them; they can have as many referenda as they want. Times change and so do opinions.
    No, they can't have as many as they want. They might be able to have one a decade, but you can't keep asking the same question every three years. These aren't elections.

    It seems better than the idea that the populace only ever gets one point in time to make a monumental decision at, and if they get more information and change their minds, tough shit.
    I have had to endure my entire life in the EU, thanks to a referendum in the 70's. I had to wait until 3 years ago to vote to fucking leave. And the best thing is, the referendum we had in the 70's was for the EEC, not the EU. It was an economic bloc, not a political one.
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  52. #4102
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    I have had to endure my entire life in the EU, thanks to a referendum in the 70's. I had to wait until 3 years ago to vote to fucking leave. And the best thing is, the referendum we had in the 70's was for the EEC, not the EU. It was an economic bloc, not a political one.
    More on this. I know people who voted to join the EEC in the 70's, and voted leave this time around. Their reason? They resented being lied to in the 70's about the nature of the community we were joining. Everyone agrees trade deals with foreign states is mutually beneficial, the EEC was sold as an economic bloc, hence the name European Economic Community. Had they known it was to become a political union, they would never have been on board.

    We were sold a bill of good in the 70's and now we're being stitched up again because undemocratic remainers are making a shit ton of noise.
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  53. #4103
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    If remain won, I would not be demanding another referendum. I'd be satisfied that I at least got to vote on it during my life, and respect the democratic will of the people.

    I might still call remainers idiots, but that would be the limit of my fury.
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  54. #4104
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't think you understand how much bigger the rest of the world is compared to Europe.
    All the more reason to be part of a bloc and not try to go it alone.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Also, the EU is a great deal more than an economic bloc.
    Like what? Some laws that don't affect you at all? Oh big deal.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    There's this belief that if a company fucks off, that's bad. Well it's not bad for whichever local company fills the void in the market. I don't give a fuck about companies that leave for greater profits elsewhere. Fuck them. I'm not a globalist, I'd prefer companies in this country to be owned by British people who have no intention of taking their business elsewhere because this is their home.
    Lol, spoken like a true jingoist. "I don't want them damn foreigners bringing jobs to my country!"



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Do you know what the odds were for Brexit about an hour before the polls opened? Around 4/1.

    That's 80/20.
    Guess BBC was lying then.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...endum-36271589








    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Because sometimes they are necessary. Why are you asking stupid questions?
    But why let a popular vote given to largely uninformed (or misinformed) and uneducated people decide a complex issue? This isn't about what they name the next royal baby; it's actually something important.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    No, they can't have as many as they want. They might be able to have one a decade, but you can't keep asking the same question every three years. These aren't elections.
    Pretty sure there is no such rule.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I have had to endure my entire life in the EU, thanks to a referendum in the 70's. I had to wait until 3 years ago to vote to fucking leave. And the best thing is, the referendum we had in the 70's was for the EEC, not the EU. It was an economic bloc, not a political one.
    We should have a referendum on NATO too - I'm tired of being part of an alliance.

    We should have a referendum on whether or not we decide important things by referendum.
  55. #4105
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    More on this. I know people who voted to join the EEC in the 70's, and voted leave this time around. Their reason? They resented being lied to in the 70's about the nature of the community we were joining. Everyone agrees trade deals with foreign states is mutually beneficial, the EEC was sold as an economic bloc, hence the name European Economic Community. Had they known it was to become a political union, they would never have been on board.

    We were sold a bill of good in the 70's and now we're being stitched up again because undemocratic remainers are making a shit ton of noise.
    ya I know people who think it's barely a political union at all. It's not like there's a common foreign policy or really much that's common besides free trade and labour.
  56. #4106
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    All the more reason to be part of a bloc and not try to go it alone.
    You seem to be missing the point. Out of the EU, we are free to negotiate. Within the EU, we are not. How is it better to be trapped in a continental bloc when there's a world out there?

    Like what? Some laws that don't affect you at all? Oh big deal.
    Don't affect me? Are you being willfully ignorant or something?

    Here's some reading for you... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law

    I know you won't read it, I can't be fucked to either, but you might note how long the article is, and each section has its own link to its own page for further detail.

    Lol, spoken like a true jingoist. "I don't want them damn foreigners bringing jobs to my country!"
    I like how you say "spoken like a true jingoist" and then change my quote so it sounds like a true jingoist. You disingenuous twat.

    Guess BBC was lying then.
    There's a surprise.

    But why let a popular vote given to largely uninformed (or misinformed) and uneducated people decide a complex issue? This isn't about what they name the next royal baby; it's actually something important.
    This is pretty insulting to the country you have migrated to. You think British people are only qualified to talk about shit like Royal babies? You think we're uneducated and too stupid to be allowed democracy? With all due respect, which is none, fuck off.

    Pretty sure there is no such rule.
    No, but there are financial and practical limitations.

    We should have a referendum on NATO too - I'm tired of being part of an alliance.
    Fuck yes. NATO is by its very existence an anti-Russian body which ceases to have real purpose if Russia is not actually an enemy. Hence, constant propaganda maintaining the threat Russia pose. NATO causes more problems than it solves.

    ya I know people who think it's barely a political union at all. It's not like there's a common foreign policy or really much that's common besides free trade and labour.
    Are you aware how the EU has evolved over time? They're talking about a joint army now. That will result in joint foreign policy. You think it's all trade and labour? And here you call British people uneducated and misinformed.
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  57. #4107
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You seem to be missing the point. Out of the EU, we are free to negotiate. Within the EU, we are not. How is it better to be trapped in a continental bloc when there's a world out there?
    Nvr mind, you're right.

    I think we should also have some tariffs and borders between counties. I'm sick of people from Yorkshire coming here taking jobs and selling me their shit.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Don't affect me? Are you being willfully ignorant or something?

    Here's some reading for you... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law
    Name me one of those laws that directly affects you. Explain how it's had a negative impact on your life.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I know you won't read it, I can't be fucked to either,
    So calling me willfully ignorant was just you projecting?





    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I like how you say "spoken like a true jingoist" and then change my quote so it sounds like a true jingoist.
    Well, that's pretty much what you said. Except you couched it in terms like foreign business investment was somehow bad for the people who live here.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    There's a surprise.
    Why do you have data that says Remain was way ahead? Like 80-20 ahead?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is pretty insulting to the country you have migrated to. You think British people are only qualified to talk about shit like Royal babies? You think we're uneducated and too stupid to be allowed democracy?
    I think the British people are collectively about the same as people in every other country. There's some with above average intelligence and an equal number with below average intelligence. There's also a fair share of people who don't understand the issues they're voting on. If you think the UK is somehow special in that regard, then that is jingoistic.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Ok ong-bananga.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    No, but there are financial and practical limitations.
    The same applies to elections. Why should they happen so much more frequently? What happened to democracy?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Fuck yes. NATO is by its very existence an anti-Russian body which ceases to have real purpose if Russia is not actually an enemy. Hence, constant propaganda maintaining the threat Russia pose. NATO causes more problems than it solves.
    Not sure if you're aware or not, but Russia just recently invaded the Ukraine and annexed the Crimea. So apparently they are something of a threat.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Are you aware how the EU has evolved over time? They're talking about a joint army now. That will result in joint foreign policy. You think it's all trade and labour? And here you call British people uneducated and misinformed.
    ya, talking and doing and two different things. Also, I'm pretty sure membership in the joint army would not be mandatory.

    Moreover, the various members of the EU have often taken independent lines of foreign policy. Some went to Iraq War II and some didn't, for example.
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    Git off me lawn chaps
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    https://twitter.com/NYPDCT/status/1117852001885392898

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    The fuzz is on it!
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  60. #4110
    Hahahahaha. NYPD counter-terrorism. Keeping NYC safe from fires in Europe.

    I love how all the comments are just trolling the guy.
  61. #4111
    I hope the Birmingham cops are out in force tonite to squelch the coming jihad.
  62. #4112
    Looks like NDC was 'saved'.

    But not before Captain Retard had some words of advice.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...44987293487104
  63. #4113
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    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Name me one of those laws that directly affects you. Explain how it's had a negative impact on your life.
    I'm not selfish when it comes to my vote. This isn't about me. This is about what I think is good for the UK. If you want an example of an EU law that I think is bad for the UK and bad for British communities, then the obvious one is fishing quotas. Fishermen in England were unable to fish British territorial waters because of EU law. This has a negative impact on the British economy, especially in coastal communities. And yes it does impact me, come to think of it; it means my fish and chips costs more. A minor problem for me, but like I say, I'm not selfish. It's a major problem for the coastal communities. That's why the North East voted en masse to leave. It's not because they're racist. It's because they're relatively poor, by British standards, and are seeing their core industry being raided by other European nations. All in the name of trade agreements.

    Well, that's pretty much what you said. Except you couched it in terms like foreign business investment was somehow bad for the people who live here.
    It's not what I said. It's how you interpreted it. That's a you problem, not a me problem. You're the one that defaults to jingoism whenever anyone shows any shred of preference for locals. I would prefer British people to own British companies because it means less money leaves the country, which is good for the economy. And it means more tax, which means improved services. It also means the company is less likely to fuck off, leaving people out of work. Local people have closer ties to the community, and accept greater responsibility when it comes to local economies. This isn't jingoism.

    Why do you have data that says Remain was way ahead? Like 80-20 ahead?
    I made a bet on betfair exchange. I got roughly 4/1. That's not a bookmaker. That's another actual person accepting my bet at those odds. I know you'll laugh at this, but that's real people putting their actual money on the line, not a state sponsored entity publishing propaganda. That for me is better evidence.

    I think the British people are collectively about the same as people in every other country. There's some with above average intelligence and an equal number with below average intelligence. There's also a fair share of people who don't understand the issues they're voting on. If you think the UK is somehow special in that regard, then that is jingoistic.
    Every other country? No. Every other western nation? Closer. No, I don't think the UK is special, I just recognise that we have world class education, which puts us in the top bracket, along with other nations with similar education standards. But this is besides the point. The point is that if you can't trust the public to make democratic decisions, then what is the point of democracy in the first place? If you truly believe in democracy, then you simply have no choice but to put your faith in the public's collective ability to make the right decision. If you don't have that faith, democracy isn't for you. You're basically saying that people are collectively too stupid for democracy. To suggest that for the UK, you might as well go right ahead and apply it to the rest of the world.

    The same applies to elections. Why should they happen so much more frequently? What happened to democracy?
    Elections have to happen regularly. 5 years is about right. If we have referenda every five years, that's going to have a negative impact on the economy, and cause social division. I mean, if we vote again now, and we vote to remain, does that mean we get another vote in three years? And then after another three years? Every three years? The EU won't tolerate this uncertainty indefinitely, will they? It is impractical to keep voting on this issue. It is not impractical to have an election every five years.

    Not sure if you're aware or not, but Russia just recently invaded the Ukraine and annexed the Crimea. So apparently they are something of a threat.
    Yeah. They are a "threat" to any region that actually wants to be part of Russia.

    ya, talking and doing and two different things. Also, I'm pretty sure membership in the joint army would not be mandatory.

    Moreover, the various members of the EU have often taken independent lines of foreign policy. Some went to Iraq War II and some didn't, for example.
    Currently, foreign policy is a matter for member states, and is not subject to common policy. That will change, you'll see. If you want evidence, do some fucking research. Learn about what the EEC was, how it evolved into what it has become, and understand why it is a great deal more than trade and labour. Then perhaps you might understand that people like me are not racist, we are not jingoistic, we simply value culture, community, and above all, independence.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  64. #4114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ong
    If you truly believe in democracy, then you simply have no choice but to put your faith in the public's collective ability to make the right decision.
    Or learn from the wrong decisions. Which is what a lot of people have done. That's why older people voted to leave. They were around when we last voted on this issue. They believe it was a mistake to join. If you disagree with them, fair enough. But if you disagree with the collective will of the people, then you either have to admit you're wrong, or accept the public have made a mistake they need to learn from.

    We probably won't know if this was a mistake for a decade.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #4115
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm not selfish when it comes to my vote. This isn't about me. This is about what I think is good for the UK. If you want an example of an EU law that I think is bad for the UK and bad for British communities, then the obvious one is fishing quotas. Fishermen in England were unable to fish British territorial waters because of EU law. This has a negative impact on the British economy, especially in coastal communities. And yes it does impact me, come to think of it; it means my fish and chips costs more. A minor problem for me, but like I say, I'm not selfish. It's a major problem for the coastal communities. That's why the North East voted en masse to leave. It's not because they're racist. It's because they're relatively poor, by British standards, and are seeing their core industry being raided by other European nations. All in the name of trade agreements.
    That's the best you got? Pretty lame.

    For one, fisheries have been in decline for > 100 years.

    For another, NE England has been poor relative to the South for much longer than the EU has been around. Whether individuals there blame it on the EU is irrelevant; if they are using the same logic as you it's positively misguided. Also, people in Scotland also fish and yet they voted overwhelmingly for Remain.

    Show me actual proof that this policy has hurt UK fishing AND that this outweighs the benefits of the common market.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I would prefer British people to own British companies because it means less money leaves the country, which is good for the economy. And it means more tax, which means improved services. It also means the company is less likely to fuck off, leaving people out of work. Local people have closer ties to the community, and accept greater responsibility when it comes to local economies.
    None of this is supported by evidence.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I made a bet on betfair exchange. I got roughly 4/1. That's not a bookmaker. That's another actual person accepting my bet at those odds. I know you'll laugh at this, but that's real people putting their actual money on the line, not a state sponsored entity publishing propaganda. That for me is better evidence.
    Funny that you bristled at me for calling people dumb and then use their stupidity as evidence of a 'poll'. The fact you got such good odds on Leave only suggests people think polls are either/or propositions and don't understand margins of error.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The point is that if you can't trust the public to make democratic decisions, then what is the point of democracy in the first place? If you truly believe in democracy, then you simply have no choice but to put your faith in the public's collective ability to make the right decision.
    One thing you can trust is for people to make better decisions the better informed they are. People are now better informed than they were 3 years ago; that's why another referendum makes sense.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You're basically saying that people are collectively too stupid for democracy. To suggest that for the UK, you might as well go right ahead and apply it to the rest of the world.
    Not what I said at all.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Elections have to happen regularly. 5 years is about right. If we have referenda every five years, that's going to have a negative impact on the economy, and cause social division.
    The referendum reflected social division. It doesn't cause it anymore than an election does.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean, if we vote again now, and we vote to remain, does that mean we get another vote in three years? And then after another three years? Every three years? The EU won't tolerate this uncertainty indefinitely, will they? It is impractical to keep voting on this issue. It is not impractical to have an election every five years.
    The problem is that a 52/48 split is hardly an overwhelming majority. They basically won by a whisker. If it had been 60/40 or higher I would have said 'ok fuck it they won'. But 52/48 suggests it could easily go the other way next time. And unless you have a clear majority you shouldn't start fucking around with things that most of the voters didn't really understand when they voted the first time anyways.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Yeah. They are a "threat" to any region that actually wants to be part of Russia.
    According to who? The referendum where Russian soldiers watched the people vote? Yea that was fair.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Currently, foreign policy is a matter for member states, and is not subject to common policy. That will change, you'll see.
    Oh you're psychic now?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If you want evidence, do some fucking research.
    Yeah, cause obviously I'm not to going to get any from you lol.
  66. #4116
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    I asked my uncle who follows UK politics what the deal was with brexit because I honestly still don't get any of it. He started droning on about how they're selling polish sausage on Oxford street or whatever, and I just zoned out. Meanwhile Ong is worried about fish & chips. I think it's time to concede that this is something I'll never get my head around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Looks like NDC was 'saved'.

    But not before Captain Retard had some words of advice.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...44987293487104
    It still surprises me that Trumples aren't deeply embarrassed by stuff like that.

    But then I remember:

    https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/st...57842566815746
    https://twitter.com/JasonSCampbell/s...60297388572673 (Glenn Beck: I'm not saying it's muslims, but if it is muslims, they'll never say it's muslims, so it's muslims)
    https://removeddit.com/r/The_Donald/...xru/?context=1 (almost every single comment is blaming muslims, these are the highlights)
    Last edited by oskar; 04-16-2019 at 05:02 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  67. #4117
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar
    Meanwhile Ong is worried about fish & chips.
    I'm not worried about fish and chips, I'm concerned about people's livelihoods. I couldn't give a fuck about Polish sausage being sold on Oxford Street.

    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Show me actual proof that this policy has hurt UK fishing AND that this outweighs the benefits of the common market.
    True colours shown here, socialist. So if you send me £600 a month, I promise to stop claiming benefits. That means it's a net gain for the economy, even though it's obviously a net loss for you. So you should do it, just like fishermen in Grimsby should accept EU quotas for the benefit of whoever the fuck it is that is actually better off thanks to the EU. People who work in the City I guess.

    For one, fisheries have been in decline for > 100 years.
    So? It's in even more decline than it should be. That's because a lot of fish from British waters are not being sold at British markets.

    For another, NE England has been poor relative to the South for much longer than the EU has been around.
    True. But you seem to think this means that the EU is not making them poorer. If they are poorer, then they should be supported, not abandoned.

    One thing you can trust is for people to make better decisions the better informed they are. People are now better informed than they were 3 years ago; that's why another referendum makes sense.
    It doesn't make sense. It would be political, economic and social madness, more so than what we're witnessing. And, like I said yet you completely ignored, the EU will not tolerate indefinite uncertainty, it is not practical to keep voting on this issue. It might make sense in your undemocratic world, but in mine we have made a decision and we must accept it, whether we think it is right or not.

    Not what I said at all.
    Oh, you don't like it when people twist your words to make it sound worse than what you intended? Don't do it to other people then.

    The referendum reflected social division. It doesn't cause it anymore than an election does.
    There's an element of truth to this, but at the same time the referendum amplified that social division. More so than elections do. I can't ever remember an election causing this much division.

    The problem is that a 52/48 split is hardly an overwhelming majority.
    It doesn't matter. It is a majority. You once again imply that you do not subscribe to democracy.

    And unless you have a clear majority you shouldn't start fucking around with things that most of the voters didn't really understand when they voted the first time anyways.
    So in your democratic world, 60% is the winning line for referenda? What if it's 59.99%? Is that no longer a clear enough majority for you?

    According to who? The referendum where Russian soldiers watched the people vote? Yea that was fair.
    They speak Russian. Their culture is Russian. They are historically Russian. It's a lot easier for me to believe a region of Russian speakers would vote in a referendum to become part of Russia, than it is to believe they prefer to remain part of Ukraine, who were treating them as second class citizens because they spoke Russian and identified with Russian culture. If you think they were actually coerced into it against their true will, you've been seduced by anti Russian propaganda.

    Oh you're psychic now?
    You'd have said the same to me if we had this discussion in 1995, and I said they were moving towards a common currency. That happened. Fortunately we managed to stay the fuck away from that.

    The EU is a superstate, it is not an economic bloc like it used to be. It exerts authority over a great deal more things than economics. It would be nice if you knew this, considering you're trying to patronise me about the EU.

    Yeah, cause obviously I'm not to going to get any from you lol.
    I did my research when I was considering my vote. I'm not here to spoon feed you. If you want to understand why people voted to leave, do your research. If you can't be bothered or don't give a fuck, stop treating people who voted to leave like they are stupid and made a mistake, and instead accept the democratic will of the people.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  68. #4118
    So basically Ong, you have nothing to back up your statements but your own assurances.

    We've been down this path before; if you want to make an argument you need to be able to back up your claims with evidence. It's not the other person's job to do the research to prove you're just talking shit again, so you can go 'hurr durr i was trolling haha'.
  69. #4119
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    No. If you want evidence, do your fucking research. I've done mine. I can't be bothered to google on your behalf.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  70. #4120
    Ya, I know how you feel. I've done research that proves the Earth is flat and Hillary is a lizard queen. If you want to see the evidence, go find it yourself.
  71. #4121
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    No. If you want evidence, do your fucking research. I've done mine. I can't be bothered to google on your behalf.
    That's not an intelligent discourse. That's a copout.

    The so-called facts you've provided are contrary to your audience's expectations. You haven't shown them any reason to believe it's a reliable report on the factors at hand.
    Which is fine, unless your goal is to be understood.

    If you want to be understood, then you need to share your motivations and sources. You need to listen to the skeptics and take them seriously. You don't combat ignorance with, "Go figure it out."
    You get that, right? If you say something that goes against my understanding if physics, I don't condescend you and tell you to go figure it out. Why would you?
    You don't change someone's mind by saying, "lol. look how dumb you are."
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  72. #4122
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You don't change someone's mind by saying, "lol. look how dumb you are."
    ... but it's the next best thing.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  73. #4123
    oskar's Avatar
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    I know it's bad how much I look at T_D, you don't need to tell me, but just look at this shit:



    ... endless comedy!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  74. #4124
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    great take on why charitable billionaires are a bad thing. Case in point with Notre Dame imho. Should that really be a priority? I get it's sad, but you can do a lot more with 400 million than put a roof on a church. In any case, if you do it right, it wouldn't cost $400 million. Brutalists already on the job:


    Last edited by oskar; 04-17-2019 at 01:39 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  75. #4125
    I would laugh if they spent 400 million to rebuild it and then it got hit by a meteor the next day.

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