Quote Originally Posted by mojo
NATO expands its territory when someone asks to join and NATO accepts. They are not invading and claiming anything.

The difference is night and day.
Yes, the difference is clear. Covert vs overt.

Empires aren't just built by invasions over land. This is a geopolitical empire. Does that make it a better kind of empire? That's a different conversation.

This is the view of some folk...

Quote Originally Posted by twitter
The war in Ukraine didn't start 5 days ago.

It started in 2014 when the democratically elected Ukrainian government was overthrown by Obama in an illegal coup and replaced with an anti-Russian regime that would go on to commit daily war crimes against ethnic Russians in Donbass.
Is that person right? I haven't got a clue what's really going on. I can only speculate, just like everyone else who consumes mostly western media. I don't trust our leaders any more than I trust Putin. This is why I find it hard to "take sides". Taking sides is nothing more than making a conscious choice of which propaganda to believe.

If self-ruled peoples agree to band together to safeguard each other from a very large and militant neighbor, that strikes you as wrong?
I didn't say it was "wrong", I said it was reckless for Ukraine to infuriate Russia. And I think it would be "more right" for Western countries to engage with Russia somewhat more diplomatically.

I don't at all understand what sovereignty means to you. Not that I ever really did, but what I thought it meant can't be what it means if that's your opinion on other people's sovereignty.
I thought I was quite clear on this. I'm not suggesting Ukraine should not have the sovereign right to seek partnerships with Russia's enemies. I'm saying that exercising that sovereign right is reckless. Ukraine has the sovereign right to launch missiles at Moscow, too. But doing so would also be reckless. Me saying they shouldn't fire missiles at Russia is not the same as me saying they shouldn't have the sovereign right to do so. It's me saying it's stupid. Attempting to join NATO is not quite so stupid as launching missiles at Moscow, but it's still a dangerous thing to do. It's still reckless.

I only blame Putin for feeling like a cornered rat.
I don't. I blame Russia, NATO and Ukraine.

I blame Putin for the invasion, and all those who die, that blood is on his hands, but I blame all parties for allowing it to get to this point. Now it's a matter of who can resolve this conflict, or more to the point, if the Western will to resolve it really is there.