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  1. #7201
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Here's a fun exercise... find a case of a Chinese person being racially profiled by the police in the UK. Not so easy to find examples. Then ask why that might be, and consider if the system is racist, or if the problem is cultural.
    Cart meets horse.

    Perhaps racist attitudes restricting their opportunities in other areas result in more Black British resorting to a life of crime than those of another race.

    More generally, when you forcibly import a minority group into your country and treat them like shit for a few centuries, you might have to take some responsibility for how their "culture" goes on to develop within your country.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  2. #7202
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    No, couldn't be.
    Well, speak of the Devil.

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...54459203960837
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  3. #7203
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    Well hold on, we don't know the full story. What if he sold drugs to Ong?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  4. #7204
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Of course, the problem is racism, not that there are black drug dealers from out of town, which incidentally is a problem in my town too. County lines, they call it, when city dealers come to rural towns to sell drugs. They don't tend to be white guys, and they don't tend to be reggae loving Rastas selling weed. They're gnarly bastards selling coke, crack and smack.

    This copper is a nob, but he hasn't shown he's racist here. He's shown that he was assigned at that time to look for country lines dealers, and so it stands to reason he's going to pull over a car he's not seen before driven by a black driver. He was so afraid of being accused of racism that he did a fucking great job of looking like a racist twat. But the person he pulled over is going to vaguely match the description of suspects he's assigned to be on the lookout for. Racial profiling is inevitable. The colour of someone's skin forms an important part of that person's description.

    Here's a fun exercise... find a case of a Chinese person being racially profiled by the police in the UK. Not so easy to find examples. Then ask why that might be, and consider if the system is racist, or if the problem is cultural.
    So we detain every never-seen-before black driver we see. Totally not racist.
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  5. #7205
    Somewhere, a white guy committed a crime, and the cops will be pulling white people over because they vaguely match the description of the suspect. That's precisely as racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #7206
    I mean, in Jack's world, when a cop is looking for drug dealers who are described as "black", the cops need to pull over white guys to not be racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7207
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean, in Jack's world, when a cop is looking for drug dealers who are described as "black", the cops need to pull over white guys to not be racist.
    Being the same race as a criminal is not probably cause to detain someone, sorry.

    If the cops pulled you over saying 'we're looking for a white guy, and you're white', I suspect you wouldn't be so blase about it. If it happened once, you might shrug it off, but if it kept happening over and over, you'd get sick of it pretty quickly.

    If the cops handcuffed you and put their knee on your neck because some white criminal was in the neighborhood, you'd be fucking livid.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  8. #7208
    Being the same race as a criminal is not probably cause to detain someone, sorry.
    No, but being the same race, while driving a car a local cop is unfamiliar with, while they are looking for someone described as black and from out of town, that is. And to be clear, we're using the word "detain" loosely here, as in detained at the road side for five minutes. Cop can do that for pretty much any reason, such as checking the tread on your tires. Of course the cop needs more to make an arrest, but getting pulled over is part and parcel of driving a car, just like stopping at traffic lights. It happens to most people, and it's nearly always for a reason. Does it happen to more people than others? Sure. I'm betting black Mercedes get pulled over more often than Nissan Micras. I'm guessing fast cars get pulled over more than slow ones. I'm guessing people of all races get pulled over more often in crime hotspots than in low crime areas. Cops have got a job to do, and racial profiling is inevitably part of that job, because skin colour is an important aspect of a person's description. Is offending racially sensitive people worse than crime?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #7209
    How long before someone is kicking up a stink because a cop misgendered it?

    "Hello sir, I pulled you over as we're looking for a man who matches your description."
    "How dare you, I am a woman."
    "I'm sorry Madam, it's just the man we're looking for also has a beard."

    I mean, what's actually the difference between the cops pulling over a man because the suspect is male, or the cops pulling over a black person because the suspect is black?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #7210
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    No, but being the same race, while driving a car a local cop is unfamiliar with, while they are looking for someone described as black and from out of town, that is.
    No actually it's not.

    And since when does a cop know all the cars in the town he lives in? Fuck off.

    And who has ever been described as 'black and from out of town'? Unless this town is made up of less than 100 people, then fuck off again.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And to be clear, we're using the word "detain" loosely here, as in detained at the road side for five minutes. Cop can do that for pretty much any reason, such as checking the tread on your tires.
    No actually he has to have a reason. Unless he can see the tread on your tires is low while they're spinning (in which case he isn't really a cop, but Superman), he can't just pull you over to randomly check your vehicle for faults.

    The cops in my hometown more than once used this 'random check' bullshit on me, when their real reason was that I was over the legal limit of Native American blood. If I was older and wiser I would have busted their asses for it. And they would have gotten sanctioned. And rightly so.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Of course the cop needs more to make an arrest, but getting pulled over is part and parcel of driving a car, just like stopping at traffic lights. It happens to most people, and it's nearly always for a reason. Does it happen to more people than others? Sure. I'm betting black Mercedes get pulled over more often than Nissan Micras. I'm guessing fast cars get pulled over more than slow ones. I'm guessing people of all races get pulled over more often in crime hotspots than in low crime areas. Cops have got a job to do, and racial profiling is inevitably part of that job, because skin colour is an important aspect of a person's description. Is offending racially sensitive people worse than crime?
    All kinds of excuses can be used, but you're infringing on someone's rights if you pull them over based on their skin colour, i.e., without a good reason. A person has a right to go about their business without being repeatedly stopped by police for having a certain shade of skin.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  11. #7211
    Let's ignore the 'out of town' bit because obviously that's bullshit.

    Is the cop allowed to pull over every black person he sees to find the guilty party? For how many weeks?

    Is he thinking he's going to identify the guilty party by looking deeply into his eyes? Is the idea that simply being pulled over will make the criminal confess? Other than harassing black people, what does pulling them all over accomplish?

    You have to have more than a vague description and a coincidence in time and place to start accosting people and interrupting their day. Like a license plate number, or some identifying feature like a scar. What if the criminal was white? Would the cop then be allowed to hold up traffic to stop all the white people he sees driving around? I guarantee you if they did that there'd be a huge stink about it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  12. #7212
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    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...395816960?s=20
    2nd video in the thread.

    Chris Wallace: "I took the [cognitive] test too, when I heard you passed it. It's not the hardest test. It shows a picture and it says, 'what's that,' and it's an elephant."


    This is the test he's bragging about:



    I'm dead.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  13. #7213
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...395816960?s=20


    This is the test he's bragging about:

    I'd laugh if it turned out he paid someone else to take it, like with his SATs.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  14. #7214
    Oh yeah, this is going to be a great campaign.


    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  15. #7215
    Meanwhile in Trump's province of cuckoo land:

    https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1284860680773017600

    Trump to Wallace: "The last five questions were very hard. I'll bet you couldn't even answer the last five questions."

    The last five questions were to name the current:
    1. Date.
    2. Month.
    3. Year.
    4. Place.
    5. City.

    I'll bet he could.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  16. #7216
    If this kind of interview keeps going out on Fox News, he's fucked. Wallace just nails him again and again.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  17. #7217
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    The whole thing is already up on FOX's YT channel. It's magic.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6XdpDOH1JA
    The slow roll on the retard proof test in split screen while Trump is bragging about how tough it is... they couldn't have made him look more stupid.

    Chris Wallace was tougher on Trump than CNN or MSNBC ever were with a democratic candidate... or anyone has ever been on Trump for that matter. The CBS interview last week was an embarrassment.
    This interview killed him. This is a 40 min. attack ad scripted by Trump against himself. It's beautiful.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  18. #7218
    Lol, and sweating like a pig too.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  19. #7219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Oh yeah, this is going to be a great campaign.
    Nobody saw it coming

    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  20. #7220
    Amazing how well the laugh track suits this.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  21. #7221
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    ...and it's barely edited.

    Michael Brooks passed away unexpectedly at 37. I highly recommend anything he's ever done on Brazil. He also does a great Dave Rubin impression.
    Here's a fun clip with him and Matt Christman:
    https://twitter.com/AnHourPastPaid/s...404902401?s=20
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  22. #7222
    oskar's Avatar
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    person
    woman
    man
    camera
    tv

    https://youtu.be/fBEiCfLoW90?t=133
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  23. #7223
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    person
    woman
    man
    camera
    tv

    https://youtu.be/fBEiCfLoW90?t=133

    To be fair, Biden probably would fail that test.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  24. #7224
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  25. #7225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    To be fair, Biden probably would fail that test.
    According to Trump, doctors told him that nobody had ever done what he had done with that brain damage test. That may or may not be a passing grade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I can't see the link but I assume it's this: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/co...ollapsing_due/
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  26. #7226
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    According to Trump, doctors told him that nobody had ever done what he had done with that brain damage test. That may or may not be a passing grade.
    The imagination runs wild...


    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I can't see the link but I assume it's this: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/co...ollapsing_due/
    Apparently that wasn't the first time part of it fell over, either. Here's a news bit from back in Feb.



    "We're going to build a Wall, and Mexico is going to clean it up!"
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  27. #7227
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    RIP Herman Cain

    He fell to covid
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  28. #7228
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    And he probably got it at Trump's undersold super-spreader Tulsa rally. What a legacy!


    Also new Trump interview and it's almost as good as the last one:
    https://youtu.be/zaaTZkqsaxY?t=780
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  29. #7229
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post

    Also new Trump interview and it's almost as good as the last one:
    https://youtu.be/zaaTZkqsaxY?t=780

    His comedy timing is impeccable!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  30. #7230
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    https://twitter.com/ChrisMurphyCT/st...496263687?s=20









    -->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_V...rising_attempt
    On August 5 2020, Chris Murphy, an American Senator on the United States House Committee on Foreign Affairs confirmed via twitter that the United States Government had organised the coup attempt in order to install Guaido to run a puppet government on behalf of the United States.[20]
    lol
    Last edited by oskar; 08-04-2020 at 04:29 PM.
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  31. #7231
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    Just a reminder that DJT doesn't have the exclusive rights to being a fucking retard.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  32. #7232
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Just a reminder that DJT doesn't have the exclusive rights to being a fucking retard.

    No, but he's still the World's Champ!





    He really needs to take a page out of Biden's book and try to avoid talking as much as possible.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  33. #7233
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    I can't get through that one. If he's left to ramble unchecked, he's absolutely insufferable.

    But he's up to his old tricks today in Ohio: https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1...671397890?s=20
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  34. #7234
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53713312

    Labour MP complains about racial profiling after getting pulled over. The police claim they incorrectly entered the wrong reg and the same car, model and colour was shown, except registered to an address in Yorkshire, not London. In the BBC article linked above, Butler claims the driver is black.

    Here's the youtube footage posted on youtube by the Guardian...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

    Notice how it's mirrored to give the impression she's the driver.

    Here's footage that shows the driver is white...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CWztXEA7A

    Fucking state of the world. MPs lying about racial profiling while giving cops a hard time for doing their job.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  35. #7235
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53713312

    Labour MP complains about racial profiling after getting pulled over. The police claim they incorrectly entered the wrong reg and the same car, model and colour was shown, except registered to an address in Yorkshire, not London. In the BBC article linked above, Butler claims the driver is black.

    Here's the youtube footage posted on youtube by the Guardian...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

    Notice how it's mirrored to give the impression she's the driver.

    Here's footage that shows the driver is white...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CWztXEA7A

    Fucking state of the world. MPs lying about racial profiling while giving cops a hard time for doing their job.

    I don't see how you can tell which video is the mirrored one. It could be either.

    The cops' story about entering the wrong reg sounds a bit fishy too. And since when does being from Yorkshire make you a suspect in a crime?

    Here we go again. The cops can't pull someone over just for being from out of town, regardless of their skin colour. Fuck off.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  36. #7236
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    Here's the youtube footage posted on youtube by the Guardian...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo



    Here's footage that shows the driver is white...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78CWztXEA7A

    Funny how the "mirrored" video (according to you) is the crystal clear one and the "real" video is low res. I didn't know you could make a high res video out of a low res one like that. Fucking genius.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  37. #7237
    Oh wait, she says right in the article her white friend was the driver. So obviously she wasn't trying to fool anyone.

    You know they can import left-hand steering cars here too, right?

    Anyways, I'll let you get back to making yourself a new tinfoil hat.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  38. #7238
    I don't see how you can tell which video is the mirrored one. It could be either.
    Try harder. Hint - letters.

    The cops' story about entering the wrong reg sounds a bit fishy too. And since when does being from Yorkshire make you a suspect in a crime?
    Not as fishy as claiming to be racially profiled when the passenger of a car.

    Oh wait, she says right in the article her white friend was the driver. So obviously she wasn't trying to fool anyone.

    She's trying to fool people by claiming to have been racially profiled when a white driver got pulled over, and the Guardian is trying to fool people by flipping the footage and editing out the white guy, while the BBC claim the driver is black.

    How can you not see anything wrong with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #7239
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Oh wait, she says right in the article her white friend was the driver. So obviously she wasn't trying to fool anyone.
    Read the article again, in particular this bit...

    The BMW was being driven by a male friend, who is also black, and it was pulled over by two police cars, Ms Butler said.

    Now watch the footage where the driver is actually in shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #7240
    I mean cmon poop, you aren't this stupid. You must see what's happening here. I appreciate it's fun to just argue with me, but show some intellectual honesty here. The BBC clearly claim the driver is black, citing Butler herself as saying it. The driver is clearly white.

    This is not racial profiling. It's bullshit, and she should be sacked.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  41. #7241
    The cops' story about entering the wrong reg sounds a bit fishy too. And since when does being from Yorkshire make you a suspect in a crime?

    As for this, it's got nothing to do with race. People get pulled over all the time, often for the most minor of reasons. It's what the police do. I mean, for this to be racially motivated, you're assuming that the police can tell the race of the occupants of a car, and then pull them over based on that determination. Not only that, but we're getting to the point where the passenger is the target, not the driver. It's ridiculous to think the police are doing this.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  42. #7242
    Oh look, here's another doctored video. They even photoshopped the steering wheel in to make it look like she was driving in this one.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  43. #7243
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Try harder. Hint - letters.
    Not seeing it, sorry.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Not as fishy as claiming to be racially profiled when the passenger of a car.
    I didn't realise passengers in cars were invisible.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    She's trying to fool people by claiming to have been racially profiled when a white driver got pulled over
    Sounds like it wasn't the first time she's been pulled over. The cops' reason for pulling over is b.s. I'd be pissed too if I were her.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    and the Guardian is trying to fool people by flipping the footage and editing out the white guy, while the BBC claim the driver is black.

    How can you not see anything wrong with this?
    How does bad reporting make racial profiling less of a problem?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  44. #7244
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    As for this, it's got nothing to do with race. People get pulled over all the time, often for the most minor of reasons.
    Source?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean, for this to be racially motivated, you're assuming that the police can tell the race of the occupants of a car,
    Can you not tell the race of a passenger you see in a car? You realize glass is transparent, right? Who is being disingenuous here?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    and then pull them over based on that determination. Not only that, but we're getting to the point where the passenger is the target, not the driver. It's ridiculous to think the police are doing this.
    Yeah, there's no racist cops out there at all lol.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  45. #7245
    Not seeing it, sorry.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

    11 seconds, look behind the cop's head. The letter "B" is backwards.

    I didn't realise passengers in cars were invisible.
    Passengers don't tend to get pulled over, not unless cops are acting on specific information.

    Sounds like it wasn't the first time she's been pulled over. The cops' reason for pulling over is b.s. I'd be pissed too if I were her.
    She didn't get pulled over. Her white friend did. And "sounds like" is a bit vague, I mean, dare I quote you, but... source? We don't even know she can drive.

    How does bad reporting make racial profiling less of a problem?
    Can you please explain to me how this incident falls into the realm of "racial profiling"?

    Source?
    Ridiculous. I've been the passenger in a car getting pulled over several times. Also I've been pulled by cops when walking home. Reasons?
    "You went a bit fast round that island" (no we didn't, but whatever).
    "There's been a burglary nearby, can I look inside your bag please?" (sure, shows inside of bag).

    Cops are entitled to pull people over for pretty much any reason. I mean, the driver being black isn't one of them, but the driver failing to indicate is. It's very easy to make up a bullshit reason to justify pulling someone over, and it definitely happens all the time. All they have to say is they suspect you're drunk, and you're blowing into a breathaliser or facing arrest. We can talk about whether this is fair or not, and it probably won't be a discussion we disagree much on, but it's got fuck all to do with race. When I'm behind a car, I can't tell what race the driver or passenger is.

    Can you not tell the race of a passenger you see in a car? You realize glass is transparent, right? Who is being disingenuous here?

    Usually people have hair. I can't tell the race of someone by the back of their head. Can you? Maybe if it's dreads or braids, or if I can see their neck perhaps, but more often than not, no I can't tell. Next time I'm out and about, I'll try and get back to you.

    Yeah, there's no racist cops out there at all lol.

    Of course there are, just like there are racist doctors. They are in the minority, and the cop who pulled Butler over did not come across as remotely racist, in fact he was extremely cautious talking to her.

    Do you really think that a white driver with a black passenger getting pulled over is racial profiling?

    Do you really think the media are reporting this sincerely?

    Do you really think Butler is sincere in her motives?

    I answer an emphatic "no" to all of those questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  46. #7246
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Oh look, here's another doctored video. They even photoshopped the steering wheel in to make it look like she was driving in this one.
    How is this relevant to the discussion? Is she the passenger of a car driven by a white man? No. So it's completely unrelated.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  47. #7247
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    I'm sure there are even instances even more clear cut than this where someone was clearly in the wrong but blamed a traffic stop on racism. I'm sure this happened more than once. Isn't really informing me of anything useful. If you want to know if there's a systemic problem with traffic stops you look at the rate at which black people are being stopped relative to their share of the population.

    I don't have traffic stop numbers, but this one is looking pretty bad: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures....-search/latest
    If this is accurate, you're almost 10x more likely to be stopped and searched in the UK if you're black. That is hard to explain away.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  48. #7248
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I'm sure there are even instances even more clear cut than this where someone was clearly in the wrong but blamed a traffic stop on racism. I'm sure this happened more than once. Isn't really informing me of anything useful. If you want to know if there's a systemic problem with traffic stops you look at the rate at which black people are being stopped relative to their share of the population.

    I don't have traffic stop numbers, but this one is looking pretty bad: https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures....-search/latest
    If this is accurate, you're almost 10x more likely to be stopped and searched in the UK if you're black. That is hard to explain away.

    Yeah I mean it's easy to see that woman as a bit of a tin-hatter, who's just assuming she's (or more accurately, her friend) been stopped 'cause she's a black person in a car. I'm willing to accept that she doesn't have good evidence that the car was pulled over 'cause she's black IN THAT INSTANCE. OTOH, if you get stopped 9 times for illegitimate reasons, then the 10th time you're likely to assume it's also illegitimate as well, even if it's just 'cause the car you were in was from 'out of town' (and people from outside London visiting London is grounds for investigation apparently).

    As far why Ong gets pulled over so much, I have no idea. Maybe it's the cloud of weed smoke pouring out the windows.

    I've only been pulled over once in 18 years here, and it was for a legitimate reason (headlight out). Even when I leave the town I live in I seem to be able to travel umolested.

    Contrast with my hometown where I got pulled over about a half dozen times in seven years, for 'random checks' (i.e., no good reason). Apparently cops in the UK don't have a legal limit on Native American blood the way the cops in my hick town did.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  49. #7249
    Meanwhile in America, Trump's been asking about whether there's room on Mt. Rushmore for one more president. Lol.

    https://twitter.com/i/events/1292662754482954240
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  50. #7250
    At least oskar has some sense regarding this matter.

    If you want to know if there's a systemic problem with traffic stops you look at the rate at which black people are being stopped relative to their share of the population.
    This is only half the story. We also need to look at where people are pulled over, and the demographic of that particular location. We also need to compare these figures with the crime rates relative to race. In this case, we're talking about Hackney, which has a higher percentage of black people than the national average, and a high crime rate.

    Interesting link there oskar. And it's as reliable a source as we'll get; it's not media, it's government.

    between April 2018 and March 2019, there were 4 stop and searches for every 1,000 White people, compared with 38 for every 1,000 Black people
    This does indeed imply there's a problem, since there's no way that black people are responsible for 10x more crime than white people. But we're not getting the full picture here. We're not getting any indication of why people are being pulled over. Black people are poorer, on average, and so it's possible that they are more likely to have a light out of order, a common reason to be pulled over. This is obviously speculation and certainly does not account for the massive difference, but other factors might come into play that don't involve racism. But I'm not going to lie, that difference is more than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  51. #7251
    Yeah I mean it's easy to see that woman as a bit of a tin-hatter
    She's not a tin hatter, she's a politician.

    As far why Ong gets pulled over so much, I have no idea. Maybe it's the cloud of weed smoke pouring out the windows.
    I don't get pulled over much. I'm 41, it's like less than ten times in my life, and all when I was younger. And obviously it has nothing to do with clouds of weed, since that would result in me getting busted. It has nothing to do with me at all when I'm the passenger in a car. And when I'm a pedestrian, it's because of the area I lived in, ie a shithole town.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  52. #7252
    Can you please explain to me how this incident falls into the realm of "racial profiling"?

    Just want to ask you this question again poop, seeing as you dodged it first time.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  53. #7253
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Just want to ask you this question again poop, seeing as you dodged it first time.
    Sorry, thought my answer was implied when I called her a tin-hatter.

    It's not a clear instance of racial profiling - it's non-evidence. That doesn't mean racial profiling doesn't occur, it just means this doesn't speak to it one way or the other. Plenty of real examples out there though which of course you are aware of already.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  54. #7254
    Racial profiling certainly occurs. We talked about this recently. There are different degrees of racial profiling. Pulling someone over because they are black and driving a BMW would be acceptable if the cops are looking for a black person driving a BMW. But if they're just bored, it's not an acceptable reason to pull someone over.

    But this isn't the point. The issue at hand is an MP claiming to have been racially profiled when the passenger of a car driven by a white guy.

    Although it has to be said, Butler is doubling down on this and is insisting the driver isn't white. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt and assume it's Michael Jackson driving the car. How the fuck are the police supposed to be able to tell from the back of some guy's head that he's not white, when footage taken from inside the guy makes him appear white? I appreciate that not all "white" people are ethnically white, but it still doesn't add up that the only reason this car was pulled over was because of race.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  55. #7255
    They're two separate issues. It's odd to me that you see the MP using a dodgy excuse to bring a serious problem to the public's attention as the main issue here, rather than the systemic racism in the police.

    I don't remember you being this outraged over the lies told when they were pushing Brexit.

    So do the ends justify the means, but only when it's a cause you're on board with?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  56. #7256
    They're two separate issues. It's odd to me that you see the MP using a dodgy excuse to bring a serious problem to the public's attention as the main issue here, rather than the systemic racism in the police.

    Really? I find it odd that you accept a politician lying about racial profiling because it brings "public attention" to the issue. It certainly does that, but not the good kind of attention. It makes people wonder how many cases of racial profiling are actually just people playing the race card. It results in people losing confidence in either the police or politicians, depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

    I don't see how this is remotely positive.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  57. #7257
    I don't remember you being this outraged over the lies told when they were pushing Brexit.

    Oh for fuck's sake. Give it up. There were lies on both sides, and it made no difference to me because I was always voting to leave. Get over it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  58. #7258
    But mwaaaaa Brexit.

    I mean really poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  59. #7259
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Really? I find it odd that you accept a politician lying about racial profiling because it brings "public attention" to the issue. It certainly does that, but not the good kind of attention. It makes people wonder how many cases of racial profiling are actually just people playing the race card. It results in people losing confidence in either the police or politicians, depending on which side of the fence you sit on.

    I don't see how this is remotely positive.
    I don't think what she did (assuming it wasn't a doctored video you found, but a real representation of what happened) was acceptable if she is just being a black Karen. OTOH, I don't think it's ok for cops to harass people for allegedly being from out of town regardless of who is in the car.

    However, this one incident isn't going to change anything about how anyone looks at racism in the police force. The people who are already in favour of BLM will either never hear about the alleged lying, or will disbelieve or otherwise not take it as a serious problem. Just like people in favour of Brexit discount all the lying that went into that campaign. Conversely, the people who are on the cops' side will continue to make whatever excuses or distortions are needed in order to maintain the status quo. Like you with your outrage that a politician was caught lying, as if they don't all lie all the time anyways.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  60. #7260
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Oh for fuck's sake. Give it up. There were lies on both sides, and it made no difference to me because I was always voting to leave. Get over it.
    You weren't the deciding vote ldo. It's all the dipshits who thought it would be good for them and save the NHS and got pushed over the fence by Boris' bus and the other fake promises who I'm talking about here.

    btw, the strawberries are tasting pretty shitty this year, like they've sat out in the field too long. Time for you to go do that fruit picking you were talking about - lovely weather for it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  61. #7261
    I don't think what she did (assuming it wasn't a doctored video you found, but a real representation of what happened) was acceptable if she is just being a black Karen. OTOH, I don't think it's ok for cops to harass people for allegedly being from out of town regardless of who is in the car.

    I mean I don't disagree with this. Like I said, if we have a discussion about police powers, then we might find common ground. But at the same time, the police do have an important job to do, and the vast majority of people who get pulled over have not been pulled because of their race, and the vast majority of those that are, it's because their race matches the description of a person of interest. Police need to be able to pull people over, and considering that it's important they can do so if they suspect the driver is drunk, it's really easy for them to bullshit a reason because they are bored or whatever. It's not an easy problem to solve. You can suspect a driver is drunk if he's going particularly slow when tailed by a cop car. You can suspect it if there's a slight steering error. Basically, a cop can pull over anyone for any reason, and just say "blow into this please". That wastes more time than just asking questions, so there's an element of "be careful what you wish for". If you take powers away from cops, more people get pulled over due to suspicion of being drunk and less people get pulled over for not indicating or whatever other bullshit reasons they come up with.

    Nobody likes getting pulled over, but it's part and parcel of driving. If you don't like it, get the bus.

    As for your Brexit post, I'm not biting. Buy better strawberries ido. The ones I buy are tasty as fuck.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  62. #7262
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    the vast majority of people who get pulled over have not been pulled because of their race, and the vast majority of those that are, it's because their race matches the description of a person of interest.
    I guess you already forgot that link Oscar posted. Must be some good weed.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Police need to be able to pull people over, and considering that it's important they can do so if they suspect the driver is drunk, it's really easy for them to bullshit a reason because they are bored or whatever.
    Don't they all have dashcams now? So, they should have video evidence that someone is driving erratically to base a suspicion of drunk driving on.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Basically, a cop can pull over anyone for any reason, and just say "blow into this please". That wastes more time than just asking questions, so there's an element of "be careful what you wish for".
    This argument makes no sense at all. I shouldn't wish they needed a reason to pull people over because they'll just make up reasons? That's what they do now lol.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If you take powers away from cops, more people get pulled over due to suspicion of being drunk and less people get pulled over for not indicating or whatever other bullshit reasons they come up with.
    Or, they could be taught to only pull people over when they have a good reason, and not because they ran out of doughnuts or tea and crumpets or whatever cops eat here.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Nobody likes getting pulled over, but it's part and parcel of driving. If you don't like it, get the bus.
    Or, stop being black.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    As for your Brexit post, I'm not biting. Buy better strawberries ido. The ones I buy are tasty as fuck.
    Probably came from Spain. You'll be missing those in four months.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  63. #7263
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    IDK what the history is in the UK, but the entire history of the police in the US is in promotion of keeping the ideals of slavery in place while the language has evolved around it.

    You don't even have to look very hard to find the history. If you don't know it, then you're not trying to know it.

    I'm not blaming or shaming any people who are police. I'm saying that even if everyone in the entire police and judicial system as it stands today were a good person, we'd still see widespread oppression of black and poor communities. The laws have literally been created to keep those communities in prisons and to strip away their right to vote by creating laws which criminalize non-violent behaviors as felonies.

    Calling someone a criminal over a law that was passed to specifically criminalize non-violent behavior is a huge problem.
    The US has an obscene number of its own citizens incarcerated, and we have the gall to call ourselves the Land of the Free. It's clearly BS. It's clearly a problem. Blaming the police or the people they persecute is missing the point entirely.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  64. #7264
    I guess you already forgot that link Oscar posted. Must be some good weed.
    That data did not tell us why people were being pulled over. I mean, honestly, I do not believe, except in rare circumstances, that police are pulling people over purely because they are black. I have more faith in the character of police in this country. I think many of them are power hungry bullies, but they have big egos and like thinking they are doing an important job for society. They get off on being a hero. And heroes aren't racist. I know there are exceptions, but cops usually work in pairs, so not only do you need a pair of racists, you need them to have enough trust in each other to act racist.

    I don't know why 10x more black people get pulled over than whites, I can only speculate. But racism isn't the only possibility. I believe racism is a minor problem in the police in the UK.

    Obviously I can't speak about USA, and clearly there is a problem there. But USA is a completely different world to the UK. There are 50 states, all with different police forces and different laws. Here were have a handful of regional forces all acting on the same laws. It's a lot harder for a force to be racist here because all are answerable to the same regulatory body. If racism is a problem in the UK here, then it's also a problem in all of government, because government is allowing it. Not only government, but supposed independent regulatory bodies too. The UK just isn't this racist.

    Don't they all have dashcams now? So, they should have video evidence that someone is driving erratically to base a suspicion of drunk driving on.

    This is a fair point. They don't all have dashcams, at least I don't think they do, but they do have bodycams. In this case, the police want to release the bodycam footage, but it has to get the green light first. I mean, the fact they have bodycams demonstrates that for the police to be racist, so too are those at independent bodies.


    Or, they could be taught to only pull people over when they have a good reason, and not because they ran out of doughnuts or tea and crumpets or whatever cops eat here.
    Maccies, Burger King, any drive thru basically.

    Who are we to decide what a good reason is? I mean, a Yorkshire car in Hackney, maybe something didn't match, idk what their exact thoughts were. Hopefully the bodycam footage will become public and we'll hear their conversation before they pulled them over. I'm gonna bet they don't mention skin colour.

    Probably came from Spain. You'll be missing those in four months.

    They come from local farms. You got a farm shop nearby? Buy local produce from there. It's always better than supermarkets.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #7265
    Hey mojo, just gonna read about the history of the British police before I reply to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  66. #7266
    Ok I've read the first bit of the Wikipedia page and I'm already getting bored.

    I mean, there's an obvious difference between the UK and USA. We have millennia of history, you have like 250 years or whatever. Your entire legal system formed when your country did, at a pretty racist time. Our legal system evolved over time.

    Here, our laws were not created to oppress black people. They oppressed everyone equally. And it's only really drug offences that oppress people here. There's so much money in drugs, that making them illegal creates an environment where people will kill for control of the black market. But this is a problem that affects all races of people. You get white gangs, black gangs, Muslim gangs, Albanian gangs, probably Chinese gangs, everyone likes money. It affects poor people.

    I think the UK and USA are worlds apart for a multitude of reasons. Racism is not a problem here like it is in USA. It's a social problem for sure, but it's not a legal problem. People like Dawn Butler make it seem like it is a systematic problem here, and it creates racial tensions. I've seen the term "race baiting" banded about quite a lot on Twitter by people talking about this, and it's hard to disagree with that. I'm getting really tired of this constant escalation of race problems in the UK. It's not a systematic problem here. The law actually protects people from racism. Like I said to poop, for the police to be racist, so too must everyone who regulates them.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #7267
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    heroes aren't racist.
    It's not hard to imagine a cop who thinks they are a hero but is at the same time a racist. I doubt any of the racist cops I encountered in my lifetime were ever thinking "Wow, am I ever an asshole harassing this guy." More likely it was something along the lines of "Injuns are bad. If I can arrest one, I'm doing the town a favour. Fuck, I'm a hero!"




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I know there are exceptions, but cops usually work in pairs, so not only do you need a pair of racists, you need them to have enough trust in each other to act racist.
    Or, you need one senior cop and one junior cop that is too scared to speak up.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't know why 10x more black people get pulled over than whites, I can only speculate. But racism isn't the only possibility. I believe racism is a minor problem in the police in the UK.
    Let's say it isn't racism or even racial profiling. The next most obvious thing is poverty. Which begs the obvious question of why so many black people are in the poorer SES group here. And I know you think it's 'cause they're lazy or w/e, but that's a poor argument.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The UK just isn't this racist.
    I agree it's less racist here than in the US, and its rare to see blatant racist behaviour because it's frowned upon. But there's still subtle racism and not a question of if it exists but how deep it runs.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    In this case, the police want to release the bodycam footage, but it has to get the green light first.
    Who do they need to get the green light from? Someone from the police PR department? That's not really a good system if that's how it works.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm gonna bet they don't mention skin colour.
    Well duh. They know they can't be caught on tape saying "I'm bored, let's stop this black person." I'm sure they can cover their tracks in some way though (such as "whoops, entered the wrong reg number").
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  68. #7268
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    IDK what the history is in the UK, but the entire history of the police in the US is in promotion of keeping the ideals of slavery in place while the language has evolved around it.

    You don't even have to look very hard to find the history. If you don't know it, then you're not trying to know it.

    I'm not blaming or shaming any people who are police. I'm saying that even if everyone in the entire police and judicial system as it stands today were a good person, we'd still see widespread oppression of black and poor communities. The laws have literally been created to keep those communities in prisons and to strip away their right to vote by creating laws which criminalize non-violent behaviors as felonies.

    Calling someone a criminal over a law that was passed to specifically criminalize non-violent behavior is a huge problem.
    The US has an obscene number of its own citizens incarcerated, and we have the gall to call ourselves the Land of the Free. It's clearly BS. It's clearly a problem. Blaming the police or the people they persecute is missing the point entirely.

    I think the police started in the UK because there was a lot of crime around. I don't think it was to oppress black people or anything. The country was pretty homogenous then.

    But, I think cops are human too and they're just as prone to racist thoughts as anyone else. Ong wants to use the 'few bad apples' argument about racist cops here, but I think it's just a job that attracts some pretty dodgy characters as well as some very good ones.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  69. #7269
    It's not hard to imagine a cop who thinks they are a hero but is at the same time a racist. I doubt any of the racist cops I encountered in my lifetime were ever thinking "Wow, am I ever an asshole harassing this guy." More likely it was something along the lines of "Injuns are bad. If I can arrest one, I'm doing the town a favour. Fuck, I'm a hero!"
    Well, you're using a USA example while I'm talking about UK.

    Or, you need one senior cop and one junior cop that is too scared to speak up.
    In today's world, I'm not so sure about this. Imagine getting into trouble at work for exposing racism. Imagine how much you could sue your employer for.

    Which begs the obvious question of why so many black people are in the poorer SES group here
    We've discussed this before. Black people are more likely to be first, second or third generation immigrants who came here with nothing. White families have been settled here for centuries. Of course, there are lots of poor white people too. They tend to live on poor estates, and guess what? On such estates, white people get pulled over, either in cars or on foot, for "acting suspiciously" or whatever.

    I'm speculating rather than stating facts, I'm just looking for other reasons beyond racism, because I really don't think cops are consciously acting racist in the UK, save for a few bad apples.

    And I know you think it's 'cause they're lazy or w/e, but that's a poor argument.
    I don't think this. I'm lazy. In my last town, the Muslims worked in the local convenience stores and fast food outlets, and the Albanians ran a car wash. I didn't see many people of colour in the jobcentre. But this is a mid size town with a small percentage of non-white residents. Other than a few social problems, there wasn't a race problem in this town, certainly not with the police.

    There's something of note here, too. We don't often hear of Muslims being racially profiled when getting pulled over. They are more likely to be racially profiled when it comes to terrorism, but cops aren't generally spending their time looking for terrorists. This problem seems to be exclusive to black people, not all non-white people.

    This kinda hints that's it's a social problem, not an institutional one.

    I agree it's less racist here than in the US, and its rare to see blatant racist behaviour because it's frowned upon. But there's still subtle racism and not a question of if it exists but how deep it runs.

    Yes, like I say, a social problem. We have plenty of dickheads. But the law does not discriminate.

    Who do they need to get the green light from? Someone from the police PR department? That's not really a good system if that's how it works.

    idk, and yes this is a problem if it's internal. But as far as I'm aware, this is an example where a formal complaint has not yet been made. If such a complaint is made, the bodycam footage will be available to the independent regulator.

    Well duh. They know they can't be caught on tape saying "I'm bored, let's stop this black person." I'm sure they can cover their tracks in some way though (such as "whoops, entered the wrong reg number").

    What, while winking at each other? It seems a stretch to think this is a widespread problem.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 08-11-2020 at 06:53 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  70. #7270
    But, I think cops are human too and they're just as prone to racist thoughts as anyone else. Ong wants to use the 'few bad apples' argument about racist cops here, but I think it's just a job that attracts some pretty dodgy characters as well as some very good ones.

    I don't disagree with this. It takes a certain kind of person to be a cop. And yes, some of these people will be racist. But it's really difficult to act upon that racism, because it is frowned upon socially and against the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  71. #7271
    There's something of note here, too. We don't often hear of Muslims being racially profiled when getting pulled over. They are more likely to be racially profiled when it comes to terrorism, but cops aren't generally spending their time looking for terrorists. This problem seems to be exclusive to black people, not all non-white people.

    I should be clearer here. There are generally two types of Muslims... Asians and Africans. The Africans experience more problems than the Asians. Again, this is a social status problem. The Asians tend to be wealthier.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  72. #7272
    oskar's Avatar
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    I was just rewatching an early Werner Herzog documentary 'Land of Silence and Darkness' that follows a deafblind woman around when I noticed something I couldn't have noticed when I first watched it: There's a woman who went deaf and blind at an early age, was bedbound and on morphine for most of her childhood, for whom it is an extraordinary challenge to do just about anything we take for granted, and yet it is undeniable how much more articulate that woman is than the president of the United States. There is someone who's only means of communication is to have someone type out letters into her hand and that woman would bulldoze the idiot that is the US president in a debate.

    And with all that, I cannot wait for the democratic nominee to literally or figuratively shit his pants and get dragged off the stage in what would be a mismatched fight for some or most severely disabled.
    Good fucking job, America, you outdone yourself with this one. This is going to be a wild three months.
    Last edited by oskar; 08-17-2020 at 01:48 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  73. #7273
    Imagine if there had been no coronavirus. He probably would have beat Biden easily, and even now he has a chance 'cause you know, America.

    Meanwhile, here in MEGA country, the government has just backed down from using a broken algorithm to assign students their high school results. Apparently it favoured students from better schools so much so that everyone noticed. This was a week after a similarly broken algorithm did the same thing in Scotland. So obviously no-one checked to see if it was actually broken, they just went ahead and ran it.

    And of course, like in every other crisis time, BoJo has gone on holiday and is not talking to the public.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  74. #7274
    I don't think this A-level thing is incompetence. There will be a lot of appeals. That's good news for lawyers and anyone else who profits from legal shenanigans. Just another transfer of wealth, nothing to see here.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  75. #7275
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't think this A-level thing is incompetence. There will be a lot of appeals. That's good news for lawyers and anyone else who profits from legal shenanigans. Just another transfer of wealth, nothing to see here.
    Call it willful incompentence if you prefer. Either way, it's certainly getting to be a habit of Boris and Co..
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry

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