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  1. #7051
    oskar's Avatar
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    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  2. #7052
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    If anyone has any ideas, please help me. I don't want to ignore the intelligent arguments which motivate Republican policies, but I'm simply not finding any source thereof.
    I've posted this before but I really recommend reading this: https://waitbutwhy.com/2019/08/story-of-us.html

    It's a series of blog posts, but probably better to think of it as a book. It's the most thorough and insightful look into how humans with their inherent biases struggle with politics.

    Edit: and to state the obvious, that's not a news source, rather an exploration on why the situation is what it is.
    Last edited by CoccoBill; 06-19-2020 at 07:03 PM.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  3. #7053
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    I saw an interesting perspective on the officer who killed Georgy Floyd. It was that he's also going to have his life taken by the system. The system allowed him to accrue 18 complaints against him and let him get away with all those instances set him up for the instance that would allow him to be in the position he was, doing what he did.

    Good cops that "protected" him, weren't protecting him, they were slowly letting him become more criminal, less decent. If there's justice, he will also have his life taken by the system that encouraged him to behave that way without repercussions.

    Whatever good police are out there need to recognize that the system is pushing them in the same direction. The slow erosion of their sense of the sanctity of every life and their duty to serve and protect everyone, even criminals, gets lost.

    They should be demanding the right to sanction those acts which offend them, and rather than losing the respect of their fellow officers, gaining it.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  4. #7054
    Today in Reading - BLM protesters demand defunding of police.

    Later in Reading - Libyan immigrant stabs many people, killing at least three. Multiple (unarmed) cops run into danger, one rugby tackles the guy to the floor.

    But, you know, ACAB etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #7055
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I don't understand what you're trying to say with those 3 thoughts in one post, ong.

    Are you connecting those 3 statements, or just 3 random thoughts you threw into a single post?


    IDK what defund the police means in the UK.

    In the US, it means divert funds from people trained to deal with violent crimes to create new response options for non-violent emergencies.
    It means take away military equipment from police forces. They literally have armored tanks in many cities. That's messed up. If things get bad enough that armored tanks are needed, that's when to call in the national guard, not the local cops.

    Defund does not mean abolish police.
    It does not mean take away police officers' guns.



    Had to google ACAB. Sounds like a fringe group, and not what a majority of protestors are saying. No?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  6. #7056
    I don't think those demanding defunding of police know what defund the police means. Defunding means to reduce their funding.

    My point is that the police are essential, and that defunding them would make the country more dangerous.

    ACAB means All Cops Are Bastards, and is not a "fringe" group but a slogan used for decades to insult the cops. It's been hijacked by the BLM movement as slogan to express their hatred for cops. I appreciate you're not on Twitter, but if you were you'd realise that it's not "fringe".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7057
    The stabbing incident is unrelated to the BLM protest. It's just that it happened shortly after a protest at the same park, and the irony of the protest being related to a cop killing in USA is not to be ignored.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #7058
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't think those demanding defunding of police know what defund the police means. Defunding means to reduce their funding.

    My point is that the police are essential, and that defunding them would make the country more dangerous.

    ACAB means All Cops Are Bastards, and is not a "fringe" group but a slogan used for decades to insult the cops. It's been hijacked by the BLM movement as slogan to express their hatred for cops. I appreciate you're not on Twitter, but if you were you'd realise that it's not "fringe".
    The entire annual UK police budget is less than the budget for New York alone. That is roughly 10x the police spending per capita. So when americans say defund the police, they are talking about a police force that has 10x the funding the police force of your country has. Your police force is defunded to a level that is incomprehensible by american standards.
    These are numbers that I was immediately able to find. I'm sure it flattens out if you take the whole country. Another way to look at it is that police expenditure in the US has risen by over 300% in the past 50 years and cutting the budget in half would only put them back in the 90's in terms of what they were working with.

    If you think the police budget in the US is appropriate and you're being logically consistent, you should be out there asking for the UK's police budget to be increased until it exceeds education and infrastructure spending. You should be calling for military weapons and vehicles as well as explosive devices and crowd control weapons that are banned by geneva conventions, because that's the stuff you need to even get anywhere close to where the US is.
    Last edited by oskar; 06-21-2020 at 10:49 AM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  9. #7059
    When people in the country are calling for police to be defunded, the USA budget is irrelevant. All you've done there is emphasise how ridiculous it is for such demands to be heard in this country.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #7060
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    I don't think you can draw a direct line between something happening a lot of Twitter to something being a prevalent thread in the overall society.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  11. #7061
    That's kind of fair, but there are a lot of people who have the acronyms BLM and ACAB in their handles.

    ACAB is something that, until recently, was the kind of thing you'd see tattooed on the knuckles of thugs, like people who've been to prison for violent crimes. It's a little surprising to see it hijacked by the left.

    You might be right though, I'm looking at a relatively small sample size that distorts the true numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #7062
    https://twitter.com/NorthernerPNW/st...13465606778882

    cliffs - dude filming graffiti in CHOP streaming live on Twitch, bragging about how it's an "expression of our feelings". Gets robbed, shouts "THIEF" over and over again in an area that has no people who give a fuck.

    Bonus content - graffiti of the name "OSKAR", spelled the same as our friend here, which is unusual for English speaking countries (normally Oscar).
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #7063
    So Oskar, did you catch him?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  14. #7064
    In other news, Trump's rally in Tulsa last night did not come close to filling the arena of 19k, even though the event organiser gave out close to a million tickets. Apparently a bunch of kids trolled them by ordering big batches of tickets they had no intention of using.

    The other good news is it's now less likely the rally will be a super-spreader event.

    Oh, and Trump told the crowd he's ordered them to not test so much because it results in too many cases of CV.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  15. #7065
    You know what's funny? He's still going to win another term. Bank it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #7066
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    https://twitter.com/NorthernerPNW/st...13465606778882

    cliffs - dude filming graffiti in CHOP streaming live on Twitch, bragging about how it's an "expression of our feelings". Gets robbed, shouts "THIEF" over and over again in an area that has no people who give a fuck.

    Bonus content - graffiti of the name "OSKAR", spelled the same as our friend here, which is unusual for English speaking countries (normally Oscar).
    On one hand you have people saying that the massive increase in policing which lead to mass incarceration for minor crimes has not lead to a reduced crime rate, and that it is a statistical fact that ethnic minorities get disproportionately arrested and sentenced for the same crimes, which shows that there is systemic racism that needs to be addressed quickly and thoroughly.

    On the other hand you have a shaky video of fuck if i know what's going on.
    Last edited by oskar; 06-21-2020 at 04:04 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  17. #7067
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You know what's funny? He's still going to win another term. Bank it.
    Very doubtful at this point. Not sure why anyone would want that unless you're literally rooting for the destruction of organized life on this planet.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  18. #7068
    Just looking ahead, by Nov. the US is on pace to have > 250k CV deaths, the economy willl be in either recession or depression, and even the Ds will be hard pressed to lose that election. I wouldn't put it past them, but it doesn't look good for DJT right now.

    And as I said before, if they vote him in again then they will know what they're getting this time and they will deserve what they get.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  19. #7069
    Yeah, nothing to see here.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  20. #7070
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Very doubtful at this point. Not sure why anyone would want that unless you're literally rooting for the destruction of organized life on this planet.
    I mean this is a ridiculous exaggeration. You can't seriously believe that a second Trump term will result in the "destruction of organised life on this planet" any more than I believe that the deranged left taking control means white people will be ethnically cleansed.

    Trump winning a second term is a huge problem, but the problem is that there's no viable alternative. I mean a world where Trump is the best option is a crazy fucking world. But this massive division created by BLM is reinforcing his vote base, not causing it to collapse. If this wasn't happening, if it were decided on covid, Trump would be in trouble. But BLM have allowed him to get back into the game. Right leaning people are not buying this "equality" push from BLM and see it as a "supremacy" agenda. All this kneeling is seen as submitting to the mob. Race relations have been set back 50 years, the opposite of progress. This isn't Trump's fault, no matter how much his opponents try to make it seem so.

    Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Trump is finished, but I don't think so.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #7071
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Right leaning people are not buying this "equality" push from BLM and see it as a "supremacy" agenda. All this kneeling is seen as submitting to the mob.
    This sounds more like the view from the far-right and/or lunatic fringe to me.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Race relations have been set back 50 years, the opposite of progress. This isn't Trump's fault, no matter how much his opponents try to make it seem so.
    It's not his fault it exists, but he definitely isn't helping matters either.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  22. #7072
    oskar's Avatar
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    No, I'm not at all exaggerating. Even other current authoritarian regimes are at least acknowledging that global warming is a problem. They might not work sufficiently hard at solutions, but Trump is actively working against any solution that could stop a catastrophe. He will continue fracking and coal subsidies. He will most likely go to war with Iran and possibly Venezuela over their oil. That will be his plan how to stay afloat. On the domestic side he'll do something along the lines of designating Antifa a terrorist organization, which will enable him to treat subversives like the US treats Iraqi POW. Strip them of all human rights and detain them indefinitely. ICE is an extrajudicial police force that can detain people indefinitely without a trial. Currently they can only do that with brown people, but that can change quickly.
    They're already treating some major US cities like a war zone right now. Curfews. No right to protest. This is a country on the cusp of fascism. This is how it looks... everywhere, every time.

    He will continue to appoint young far-right judges to the courts who he can expect to rule partisan who will continue to dismantle democracy to the point where you'll never have a president who's not a neoliberal stooge for the top 0,1%.

    I honestly think your incredulity comes from simply not seeing the parallels in history. If you compare this to the rise of Erdogan, or Bolsonaro, this is nothing weird or new. It is fascism. That's how fascism do. Nobody would have honestly thought this could happen to Brazil under Lula. Yet a couple years later, here we are.

    If Biden wins, it's still fucking awful. Biden is as bad as it gets for a democratic candidate and I wish the plague on anyone who voted for this piece of shit in the primaries, but he's not a fascist and I'm confident that under Biden there will be a democratic election in 2024.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  23. #7073
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    This sounds more like the view from the far-right and/or lunatic fringe to me.
    Trump voters are lunatics. It's a white supremacist administration. It's a pure white administration with a pure white republican congress, a pure white republican senate with 99% white followers in a country that's 20% people of color, and they're calling BLM protestors criminals and thugs. What do you think it is?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  24. #7074
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    This sounds more like the view from the far-right and/or lunatic fringe to me.
    We're at the point where anyone who has an opinion, however right or wrong it may be, that is contrary to left wing narrative is considered "far right" or "lunatic". I mean, I'm neither, and I'm not buying the BLM agenda of "equality". So I'm living proof that you're wrong. Do you think I'm a lunatic?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  25. #7075
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    If you think black people are being treated equal, then you think the reason for their much worse outcomes in life are not systemic. So what are they then?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  26. #7076
    He will most likely go to war with Iran and possibly Venezuela over their oil.
    I read the blog of a very left-wing guy who believes that Trump's only redeeming feature is his lack of desire to go to war.

    This is a country on the cusp of fascism.
    I agree with this, but this isn't the destruction of organised life, as you put it. And while we're on the subject of fascism, I think it's probably preferable to anarchy, which is strange coming from an anarchist who despises fascism. The problem with anarchy is there's too many cunts. Fascism keeps those cunts under control. Humanity is not ready for anarchism.

    Global warming? That's a bit dated. It's not even "climate change" anymore, Greta calls it "climate justice" now.

    Four more years of Trump is not going to be the difference between a habitable world and an uninhabitable world.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #7077
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    If you think black people are being treated equal, then you think the reason for their much worse outcomes in life are not systemic. So what are they then?
    I don't think black people are treated equal. That's missing the point. Black people want equality. BLM want more.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #7078
    As for the "worse outcomes in life" of black people...

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #7079
    In other news, Egypt and Libya apparently on the brink of war. Turkey neck deep in this. More USA/Russia proxy war.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  30. #7080
    In that video I posted, the ex-cop is basically saying our job is to fill our quotas, and the way we do it is to go ticket and/or arrest black people whether they've done anything or not. It's an interesting watch, you should check it out.

    I mean when I see people talk about some movement like BLM and say it really means X,y, or z, instead of what it ostensibly stands for, I say, ok that's possible but I think most people think BLM means fair treatment to everyone, and that's why they support it. At least that's why I support it. And if it turns out to mean blacks will take over the world and pretending to be outraged over racism is just a front, well more fool me.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  31. #7081
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    As for the "worse outcomes in life" of black people...
    I don't think she understands what the problem is. They're not asking for handouts, they're asking to be treated as equals.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  32. #7082
    This is why they want to defund the police, btw, and give the money to social services to deal with people in distress instead.

    https://twitter.com/Hindy500/status/1274566859338244096

    Edit: from the thread, the police line was: "We believed he was a danger to himself."

    ...so they killed him.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 06-21-2020 at 07:11 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  33. #7083
    Whatever happens, I hope these guys keep making videos.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1274748265376907265
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  34. #7084
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    As for the "worse outcomes in life" of black people...
    You'd think someone who we can only assume understands what sexism in society is wouldn't be such a disingenuous witness to the ways society does the exact same things to black people.


    This is not conjecture, this is a confession.
    (Confession at 2:23)




    Those laws are still on the books. That's why they were written. The arguments put forward that got them passed were bold-faced lies as admitted by the people who made those arguments.

    How anyone can argue that what's happened to black people is accidental, or incidental, or not systemic just doesn't hold water.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  35. #7085
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I don't think she understands what the problem is. They're not asking for handouts, they're asking to be treated as equals.
    I think the point she's making is that she is treated as an equal, and that's because of the decisions she has made in her life. She's trying to tell black people that they all have that power. You want to be treated as an equal? Stop taking on board the message that you're not an equal then.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  36. #7086
    How anyone can argue that what's happened to black people is accidental, or incidental, or not systemic just doesn't hold water.
    She's arguing that a large part of the problem is black culture. When people are constantly told they are victims, they start to believe it, and behave differently to those who don't have that mentality. They start to blame other people, the system, for their life choices.

    I don't think she's oblivious to the systematic problems black people face. What she's doing is trying to tell black people that they have the power to change their lives, that they shouldn't wait for the oppressors to make the changes for them. You can argue that what we're seeing is an attempt to enforce change, but really the only power an individual has it to make personal life choices that change your own life.

    The system does not stop black people from being successful. Perhaps black people do have more obstacles than white people, but tearing down monuments and alienating white people is not the way to go about removing those obstacles. She removed those obstacles by moving out of the hood and being a law abiding citizen. I'm sure she does still experience racism, but she refuses to accept that she is a victim. Good for her. If every black person had her attitude, then we'd see progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  37. #7087
    I think most people think BLM means fair treatment to everyone, and that's why they support it. At least that's why I support it.
    I support "fair treatment for everyone". And I agree that most people think BLM is trying to achieve this goal. But that's because people aren't paying attention.

    They want to bring down capitalism, too. I appreciate people like oskar are on board with that, but I'm not, and I doubt you are. It's ironic, because BLM are getting a large amount of funding from companies who BLM would like to destroy.

    There is a great deal more to this than "equality". Maybe "supremacy" is pushing the boat out a bit too far, but this isn't just about the system treating black people as equals. It's also about overthrowing the economic system that gives all of us opportunity, including black people.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #7088
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    They want to bring down capitalism, too.
    That's just you saying that though without evidence. Defunding the police is not the end of capitalism.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  39. #7089
    Quote Originally Posted by ong
    But that's because people aren't paying attention.
    Hey poop, shall we have another discussion about how you want to be spoon fed?

    They self-identify as neo-Marxists. If you don't believe me, do some research. If you won't do the research, then don't tell me I'm wrong, because you do not know it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  40. #7090
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Hey poop, shall we have another discussion about how you want to be spoon fed?
    You mean the discussion about supporting your arguments with evidence? That one?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    They self-identify as neo-Marxists. If you don't believe me, do some research. If you won't do the research, then don't tell me I'm wrong, because you do not know it.
    I don't believe you and I'm not going to do your legwork for you either. And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I don't believe it.

    I also don't believe the flat earthers, but I don't go out looking for evidence for flat earth theory. If they want to argue that makes me lazy, fine. I got better things to do with my life than chase down every whacko theory I hear about.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  41. #7091
    And it's not even relevant anyways. You might as well say they're anti-vaxxers. I don't support BLM for its global economic policies, assuming they even exist. It's not like we have a choice between voting in the BLM Party or the Conservatives in the next election.

    My suspicion is this label has been foisted on them by the right as a means of discrediting them. It's an old play and its effective inasmuch as it works on people who want an excuse not to support equality.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  42. #7092
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    That's just you saying that though without evidence. Defunding the police is not the end of capitalism.
    Evidence please.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #7093
    I don't support Hitler for his oppression of Jews, it's his economics.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  44. #7094
    My suspicion is this label has been foisted on them by the right as a means of discrediting them. It's an old play and its effective inasmuch as it works on people who want an excuse not to support equality.

    You got any evidence to support this view?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  45. #7095
    lol, give it up troll.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  46. #7096
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  47. #7097
    So this idea of posting evidence only applies to me?

    You're arguing that BLM don't want to bring down capitalism, yet you don't care to actually research it because you expect me to provide evidence. Clearly you don't give a fuck what their economic goals are. If I supported BLM, and someone pointed out to me they were anti-capitalist, I'd want to know so I knew what I was actually supporting.

    You claim that it's just right-wing people discrediting the movement, yet provide no evidence to support your claim. All the while you demand evidence from me to support my claim.

    You can't have it both ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  48. #7098
    Yeah there's a surprise.

    What's funny is Ong is quick to believe BLM means all kinds of harm to us through some economic policy they have no power to enact and that has nothing to do with their entire raison d'etre, but he doesn't consider that the establishment has a vested interest in discrediting an equality movement through a disinformation campaign.

    Occam's razor.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  49. #7099
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    https://m4bl.org/
    https://www.joincampaignzero.org/
    https://act.colorofchange.org/sign/s...ople-are-dying

    I only briefly went through those, but I didn't see any mention of end of capitalism. No doubt there are some twitter posts about it though.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  50. #7100
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    https://m4bl.org/
    https://www.joincampaignzero.org/
    https://act.colorofchange.org/sign/s...ople-are-dying

    I only briefly went through those, but I didn't see any mention of end of capitalism. No doubt there are some twitter posts about it though.
    Well of course they're not going to SAY it out loud - it is a secret agenda after all. Thankfully some of the right wing kooks Ong follows on twitter have sussed it out.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  51. #7101
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  52. #7102
    The Telegraph lol. But, what does the Daily Mirror say?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  53. #7103
    Have we switched places? It's usually me going "[media source] lol".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  54. #7104
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    https://m4bl.org/
    https://www.joincampaignzero.org/
    https://act.colorofchange.org/sign/s...ople-are-dying

    I only briefly went through those, but I didn't see any mention of end of capitalism. No doubt there are some twitter posts about it though.
    The core message is clear: black people are getting murdered by police at an astonishing rate and in just about every instance it's being covered up, the cops are being protected and nothing comes of it. Not only did the protests not inspire caution, cops ramped it up to 11. Every day people are getting assaulted by cops. Many times completely unprovoked. I can only promote this guy again who collects all the videos of police brutality since the George Floyd murder in a thread and he's almost up to 600:
    https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/st...79519611146240

    When you talk to individuals about solutions you'll get all kinds of opinions. I'm personally convinced that racism is entrenched in capitalism and you won't get rid of it without a political revolution... but that's my opinion.

    Ong seems to be of the opinion that anything anyone says who is, or claims to be part of BLM is automatically a spokesperson and anything they say or do can be used to discredit the entire movement. Meanwhile 600 documented instances of police brutality apparently don't paint a clear enough picture of a systemic problem, and apparently black people should be able to just manifest equality if they only wished hard enough.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  55. #7105
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    Citing the Black Panthers as a violent activist group is just failing to look at history. It is failing to look at the origin of that imagery, and who created it and why. Who spread the idea that they were committing acts of violence? What politicians gained from the decapitating of black leadership structures that both lead to the rise of the Black Panthers, then cut them down, too?


    When you fail to look into the origin of that imagery, you will fail to realize that it was a fabricated lie to falsely criminalize Black leaders. You will silently just buy into the lies created by politicians to criminalize their political opponents. Lies that have since been confessed to be lies. Plenty is on the record, if you just look for primary sources, instead of 2nd, 3rd, etc. -hand sources that throw out buzz words to incite emotional responses.

    You have to dig deeper to find the firsthand sources. It's not quick or easy, but those sources are out there.


    I'm sorry, but I'm neck deep in studying the history, causes and effects of the laws that criminalize black leaders, and I know there's no way that I can state all the things that have been done to falsely criminalize blacks, systematically and purposefully by politicians in a 5-minute blurb. I've spent weeks on this, using my bent as a scientist to try to find root causes, and to explore the history that set the stage for today.

    Ong, I know you have respect for thinking scientifically, and respect for causes and effects, at least when it comes to physics. Just apply that same level of skepticism and curiosity to race issues.
    Did you watch the video I linked? You can skip straight to the confession. I gave you the time stamp. It's one of Nixon's political advisors describing the political motivation for criminalizing marijuana and heroin to suppress Nixon's political opponents, namely the hippies and blacks.


    If you want a real look at the history of these laws, who made them, what those people had to say after their careers ended... check out the documentary "13" on Netflix. That's a decent source, and not something that you can digest in less than 15 minutes, so dig in.
    If you're not willing to spend even that much time to understand the history, then kindly present your thoughts as uninformed and seeking, and not truthful assertions.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  56. #7106
    I don't think there's a single person who reads my comments that thinks I'm informed. I don't need to emphasise it. None of us are informed about the majority of our discussions. You're informed when it comes to physics, poop is informed when it comes to statistical analysis or whatever he does, I'm informed when it comes to the long term effects of cannabis, but when it comes to politics we're all uninformed, because we all base our opinions on what we believe to be true, not what we learn as fact.

    poop is right to lol the Telegraph, but likewise I'm right to lol the BBC or CNN or whatever MSM source anyone cites. We all have a tendency to grasp on to articles that already meet our opinion. We can all find counter arguments if we dig hard enough. Politics is a shitshow.

    Ong, I know you have respect for thinking scientifically, and respect for causes and effects, at least when it comes to physics. Just apply that same level of skepticism and curiosity to race issues.
    I think what I said above will help when I say... physics is not politics. I have the utmost faith in the sincerity of science. I believe what I read, while also applying critical analysis in the sense of knowing that what we know is only our best current understanding. The only science I'm skeptical of is climate, but even then it's not something I shout about because I'm far from convinced.

    I have faith in science. I don't have faith in politics. And make no mistake, race is politics.

    I'm not saying that I believe black people were not and are not oppressed. My concern is in putting faith in the integrity of political groups. I don't trust BLM, and nor do I trust any political group, which would include Black Panthers. I have no idea if they were violent or not, and nothing I'm going to read will convince me either way, and as such is a waste of my time. It's all very well talking about educating oneself about the history, but what's the point if you don't have faith in it?

    As for Nixon, I know he targeted hippies and blacks. He was an asshole.

    I mean, this is why politics is so divisive. Nobody is right, there are no "facts" like the speed of light. It's just one person's interpretation of the world. I'm no more or no less an expert than anyone else, no matter how educated you are. Even the lizard people nutjobs might be right, how the fuck would I know?

    Politics is not science. It's bullshit. If anyone thinks I'm informed, more fool them.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  57. #7107
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    Politics is BS, exactly. When people admit to writing BS laws to oppress their political opponents, that should trigger outrage, and an immediate call for repeal of those laws, but that's just not what has been happening.


    I'm fine with your blind distrust of politicians, but it doesn't mesh with your blind trust of some YouTuber or Twitter feed or whatever.

    It's great for you to distrust liar politicians, but not great that you aren't seeking data you can trust.
    It's silly to assert there isn't data out there to be trusted, though. We've directed you to said data, linked it right into the discussions.


    And no, we're not just picking a random citation which backs what we wanted to hear. We're finding data and historical records to form fact-based opinions and use those sources to back up what we are independently concluding alongside each other.

    Much like good science, there is a consistent story unfolding the more we dig into it.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  58. #7108
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The system does not stop black people from being successful. Perhaps black people do have more obstacles than white people, but tearing down monuments and alienating white people is not the way to go about removing those obstacles. She removed those obstacles by moving out of the hood and being a law abiding citizen. I'm sure she does still experience racism, but she refuses to accept that she is a victim. Good for her. If every black person had her attitude, then we'd see progress.
    I'm sure I've made this analogy before but what if we both got a group of 100 noobs to play poker. Both groups get the same prep talk, the same starting hand sheet and a friendly slap on the butt, but my group starts off with $200 and your group starts off with $10. This would be representative of the net worth different of white and black families in the US. Which group do you think does better. Would you think it's fair to say that if the $10 group does worse it would have been up to them to do better since it's possible to build a roll from $10?

    Yes, a lot of black people do great in life. It's possible that individuals succeed. That was never the point and proves nothing. Nobody complained that individuals can't succeed.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  59. #7109
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    Good article. Some of the conversations I overhear in public make me want to curl up and cry. I'm sure a lot of it comes from posts shared on social media and the fact that most people severely lack critical thinking skills and any knowledge or interest in how to rudimentary fact check something.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  60. #7110
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You'd think someone who we can only assume understands what sexism in society is wouldn't be such a disingenuous witness to the ways society does the exact same things to black people.


    This is not conjecture, this is a confession.
    (Confession at 2:23)




    Those laws are still on the books. That's why they were written. The arguments put forward that got them passed were bold-faced lies as admitted by the people who made those arguments.

    How anyone can argue that what's happened to black people is accidental, or incidental, or not systemic just doesn't hold water.
    Here's Biden's new and improved take on the subject: https://twitter.com/nasescobar316/st...159160321?s=20
    Here's the full facebook video, but I don't have a timestamp. Around 23min. he talks about the crime bill. Watchinging this now, I 100% stand by my prediction that Biden shits the bed and Bernie takes the nomination. Absolutely incomprehensible to me how dems went out of their way to go to the polls to vote for this pile of garbage.
    https://www.facebook.com/ABCNewsLive...26595727857604
    Last edited by oskar; 06-23-2020 at 01:59 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  61. #7111
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    IDK what those links say, but Biden is just more of the same on this issue. Probably all issues. What a feckless politician.


    His comment a little while ago about, "Maybe police should shoot for the leg instead of the body" or whatever perfectly describes what my vote for Biden over Trump would be. I'd rather shoot myself in the leg than the chest.


    Furthermore... no one should be shooting anyone in an attempt to maim them. Either they are an active threat to human life and need to be killed immediately as a last resort to protect life... or they shouldn't be shot or killed at all.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  62. #7112
    oskar's Avatar
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    I understand if you don't want to engage in social media, but to not accept them as a video platform is weird. You don't need to make an account, you can just click the twitter link and watch the video. I don't understand how that's fundamentally different from YT.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  63. #7113
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    The only reason I use YouTube on FTR outside of entertainment is to find something I can link directly and embed in the post. I'm not finding news on YouTube, as that's got all the same problems as other social media; I'm finding news, then finding a good way to share that news with my friends on FTR.

    Nothing on Twitter or Facebook or whatever other social media platforms has any accountability to research, and I'm also not interested in those formats for entertainment. I've clicked on a few of your Twitter links, and then temp allowed them through my script blocker, and I'm not inclined to change my opinion. The clips lack context, lack analysis, lack everything needed to inform. They just feed whatever bias the viewer already had.

    ***
    I never claimed to be not weird.

    I choose to not own a cell phone, either.

    I'm not a fan of chocolate.

    Raw tomatoes are gross.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  64. #7114
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I 100% stand by my prediction that Biden shits the bed and Bernie takes the nomination.
    He could shit the bed, the sofa and the kitchen sink and he'll still get the nomination.


    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Absolutely incomprehensible to me how dems went out of their way to go to the polls to vote for this pile of garbage.
    I suppose 'cause they were afraid Bernie would somehow lose to Trump, and after the election happens they don't care if they have a senile geezer in charge, as long as they win.

    Also, Bernie is a COMMUNIST, what with all his fancy sociliazed health care and free college ideas.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  65. #7115
    They're not afraid Bernie will lose to Trump, they're afraid he'll win. It's like Labour and Corbyn, only in USA. Good chance Bernie isn't one of "them".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  66. #7116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Nothing on Twitter or Facebook or whatever other social media platforms has any accountability to research, and I'm also not interested in those formats for entertainment. I've clicked on a few of your Twitter links, and then temp allowed them through my script blocker, and I'm not inclined to change my opinion. The clips lack context, lack analysis, lack everything needed to inform. They just feed whatever bias the viewer already had.
    I don't see how any of that applies to a clip from a Biden rally. It's just Biden rambling incoherently for 30 min. The clip I posted is him saying relating to the crime bill 'doing crack isn't the same thing as people doing cocaine in a nice neighborhood like this' as he is surrounded by white people. It's not viral, there's no reason to believe it's manipulated, there's no commentary. It's completely along the lines of what he always says about the crime bill, which is that it was great and still is great.

    Most of the videos in the police brutality thread I keep promoting are there because they show up on social media first. Usually a day or two later a news outlet will report on the incident, which is then added and linked to the thread. When investigations are opened, there will be links posted to the thread.
    Twitter is simply the most useful aggregator for news as it's going on.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  67. #7117
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I'm sure I've made this analogy before but what if we both got a group of 100 noobs to play poker. Both groups get the same prep talk, the same starting hand sheet and a friendly slap on the butt, but my group starts off with $200 and your group starts off with $10. This would be representative of the net worth different of white and black families in the US. Which group do you think does better. Would you think it's fair to say that if the $10 group does worse it would have been up to them to do better since it's possible to build a roll from $10?

    Yes, a lot of black people do great in life. It's possible that individuals succeed. That was never the point and proves nothing. Nobody complained that individuals can't succeed.
    IRL, I started off in the $10 group, and failed to build a roll. I don't blame the system for that, my failures in life are mine. I could've done better in life if I applied myself. That is true of nearly everyone in the western world who doesn't "succeed" in life.

    Here in the UK, a lot of our doctors are Indian or Pakistani. Some of these were lucky and born into rich Indian families, others were born to parents who devoted their lives to their kids' education in the hope they would succeed.

    It's kind of natural that black people will be overrepresented in your $10 poker group. White families are, on average more financially established, black people tend to be second or third generation immigrants or whatever, they do not have the benefit of century-long established family links to their area. This makes a difference. Is it fair? No, but life isn't fair, it can never be fair to everyone. I got dealt a shit hand, but hey I'm in the UK, it could've been worse. There's worse places to be than USA, like most of the fucking world. Even for a black person in a system that is rigged, USA is better than China, India, Brazil, Russia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Nigeria... that's over half the world's population right there. At least men can be gay in USA. At least you can marry who you want. At least you get welfare. At least you don't live in a slum.

    For the majority of people in our countries, regardless of skin colour, if you apply yourself you will succeed in life. And if you don't, it's still better than being in a Brazilian slum or a war torn shithole.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  68. #7118
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    Ok, got it.
    Suggestion: We just simply take away 80% of the net worth of all caucasians and just transfer it to ethnic minorities. By your logic I don't see how you could possibly have a problem with that. Then caucasians just need to apply themselves more, which should be easy.
    As long as outliers exist and other people have it worse, anything can be justified, right?
    Last edited by oskar; 06-23-2020 at 05:38 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  69. #7119
    No, I'm sorry but I'm not in favour of wealth redistribution on racial grounds. It doesn't strike me as an ethical system. If that's what you really expect to happen, then all you're doing is saying "the system is racist against blacks, let's make it racist against whites instead". I don't see how that's a solution.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  70. #7120
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    Ong, I get that you come from a poor background, and that so do many black people. I get that you don't blame the system for your role in your personal history from that poverty to your current circumstances.

    It's just not the same for black people in the US. I can't speak to the UK, but if you were an American:

    The difference would be that your parents never had to sit you down and explain to you that because of the color of your skin, you'd have to work twice as hard to get the same reward for your efforts.
    The difference would be that if you apply for a bank loan, a rental, a job, etc. the color of your skin wouldn't work against you.
    The difference would be that you probably had access to a better public school with better funding and better teachers.
    The difference would be that when you get pulled over by police, you don't have to always wonder if this is where you die.
    The difference would be you could - if you wanted - go for a jog without being nervous that a passing car wont pull in front of you and assholes jump out and perhaps kill you because of your skin color.


    Yes, poverty affects white people, too. Yes, a lot of white people don't feel like they've received any privilege, or at least would sure as hell like to cash in on that privilege any moment now.

    The thing is that what white people take for granted as "normal" is by and large only normal for whites.
    That's the privilege.
    I know you don't think any of that should be a privilege, but should just be normal, but the simple fact is that it's not normal, and only a privileged group get the luxury of even thinking it's normal.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  71. #7121
    The difference would be that your parents never had to sit you down and explain to you that because of the color of your skin, you'd have to work twice as hard to get the same reward for your efforts.
    No, in my case I have to work twice as hard because I don't have a stable family life. I had to figure this out myself because my foster parents didn't tell me. And by the time I figured it out, I didn't really care.

    The difference would be that if you apply for a bank loan, a rental, a job, etc. the color of your skin wouldn't work against you.
    No, my employment status works against me instead.

    The difference would be that you probably had access to a better public school with better funding and better teachers.
    I went to the same school as Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis and even a German. Funnily enough it was the German who got bullied for being German, the Asians didn't have problems. And it was a dreadful school, once rated as the fourth worst performing in the country. Fun fact - I was voted their worst ever pupil after I left. There's a claim to fame. The fourth worst student in the country!

    The difference would be that when you get pulled over by police, you don't have to always wonder if this is where you die.
    Can I ask a question? When was the last time a non-criminal unarmed black man got shot in USA, despite complying with police? Because all the ones I read about, they are criminals. I'm not saying that in Floyd's case it justifies the actions of the cop because it obviously doesn't, but I don't have to worry about the police killing me, not just because they're not armed here, but also because I'm not a criminal. If I were, I'd have to worry about the police. And if I were the kind of criminal who had a gun, then I'd have to worry about getting shot. My skin colour isn't going to save me if I'm robbing post offices.

    The difference would be you could - if you wanted - go for a jog without being nervous that a passing car wont pull in front of you and assholes jump out and perhaps kill you because of your skin color.
    That's because I live in the countryside and not the dangerous parts of Birmingham, London, Nottingham, Manchester, Bradford, Leicester, Bristol... I could keep listing cities in the UK where there are parts where it isn't safe for white people to go for a jog.

    That's the privilege.
    Rights are not privileges. We've got to stop with this mentality. When you talk about "privilege" it reads as though I should be grateful to have basic human rights. I shouldn't, and I'm not. I'm not grateful as a baby when my mother feeds me. It's a fucking demand, it's her duty. Being breastfed isn't a privilege. And neither is white skin.

    I know you don't think any of that should be a privilege, but should just be normal, but the simple fact is that it's not normal, and only a privileged group get the luxury of even thinking it's normal.
    The luxury group is wealthy people. Their normal is worlds apart from mine.

    I know USA is different to the UK, but USA is an armed country. So of course the social dynamics are different, especially when it comes to crime.

    The decision to be a criminal is the individual's.

    I have obstacles, and it's because I come from a poor broken family. When I was 15, I was probably in the top 1% of kids likely to end up in prison. I'm lucky I mixed with stoner skateboarders at college instead of dickhead druggies. I have made some poor decisions in my life, but some have been excellent. I chose my friends well.

    I know racism exists. But much of the problem is cultural, and it's all too easy to blame racism while ignoring culture. That's a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  72. #7122
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    Ong. What you keep denying is that poor black people also have to go through all of that you've personally gone through.
    Plus, also, in addition to that, they have to go through all the things I've mentioned.

    It's not an either/or. It's a both/and.

    Can I ask a question? When was the last time a non-criminal unarmed black man got shot in USA, despite complying with police?
    I am a big fan of questions, bro.

    IDK. I think the question is disingenuous, here's why.

    Everything is a crime in the US. When I walk across the street and there's no posted crosswalk, I'm breaking the law.
    Driving 5 mph above the posted speed limit is the norm. Everyone's a criminal.

    The US incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country for which we have data (NK, e.g., doesn't release data).
    We're so over-criminalized in every respect that literally everyone's a criminal. It's a matter of who's getting arrested for their crimes, and how the police and greater media portray those crimes.

    I'm a criminal. I've been arrested twice. Once for driving with expired license plates, and once for possession of marijuana.

    Neither of those times did it even cross my mind that my skin color may affect how I'm treated by the police.
    THAT should be the norm. It shouldn't be a privilege, it should be the norm.

    Your words to the effect that it's NOT a privilege are just missing the reality on the ground. I 100% agree with you that it should not be a privilege, but the reality is that it is. It absolutely should not be. But it is. That's what needs to be addressed, and corrected.

    ***
    Can I ask you a question?
    Does every crime deserve a death sentence? No judge, no trial, no jury, just death on the spot?
    Are you actually saying that this is your vision of justice?


    I were the kind of criminal who had a gun, then I'd have to worry about getting shot. My skin colour isn't going to save me if I'm robbing post offices.
    Did you know that the statistics show that the least gun-carrying race in the US is black people?
    I.e. the odds of a black person carrying a gun are lower than the odds of any other race carrying a gun?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  73. #7123
    IDK. I think the question is disingenuous, here's why.
    Disingenuous means insincere or willfully ignorant, I assure you it's not.

    Everything is a crime in the US. When I walk across the street and there's no posted crosswalk, I'm breaking the law.
    When I use the word "criminal" I definitely do not think of jaywalkers. I mean it's a ridiculous law, do the cops even take it seriously? Has anyone been shot for jaywalking? Jailed?

    I'm a criminal. I've been arrested twice. Once for driving with expired license plates, and once for possession of marijuana.

    Did you get convicted by a court? Or did you get cautioned, or whatever the USA equivalent is? Because a slap on the wrists doesn't make you a criminal. A conviction makes you a criminal. Or maybe making a living through illicit activity and never getting caught, I'm happy that person is still a criminal. But getting caught with weed doesn't make you a criminal, not unless you faced a court. Is it legal in your state yet?

    Does every crime deserve a death sentence? No judge, no trial, no jury, just death on the spot?

    Of course not, but I do think cops should be armed in a nation where the people are armed, and I do think cops should be able to use minimal force to neutralise a threat. Minimal might mean lethal force if the threat is strong enough. Obviously what happened to Floyd is not minimal force, there is no reason that guy should be dead. But he still chose a life of a criminal. He didn't jaywalk into it.

    Did you know that the statistics show that the least gun-carrying race in the US is black people?
    I.e. the odds of a black person carrying a gun are lower than the odds of any other race carrying a gun?
    This is interesting but doesn't come close to telling the full story. What about in Chicago? Or whichever location we're talking about where a black guy gets shot? I don't know how much that figure is skewed by rednecks and their shotguns, a different demographic to homies with pistols.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  74. #7124
    Here's another question, and I'd kinda like you to be honest.

    Who do you think is more likely to use their gun to kill someone? A white person? Or a black person?

    I don't know the answer to that, and maybe this is just falling victim to propaganda, but I'd bet the black person is.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  75. #7125
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Disingenuous means insincere or willfully ignorant, I assure you it's not.
    It's hard to not consider your continued assertions that there is no difference in society between being a white person or a black person is anything but willful ignorance. In fact, I find it more and more difficult to think so, the more hours I spend studying the history of racism and the stories of black lives.

    I don't see you seeking knowledge. I see you seeking nonsense and tangents to slink away from a harsh reality that people are screaming about all over the world. I see you avoiding seeking of data, denying that there is data, and attempting to contradict data with emotional appeals.

    I believe you mean to seek a truth underlying all the BS, but I don't see much evidence to support that belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    When I use the word "criminal" I definitely do not think of jaywalkers. I mean it's a ridiculous law, do the cops even take it seriously? Has anyone been shot for jaywalking? Jailed?
    Yes, I've been given a ticket for jaywalking, and had to pay the fine. I was "rounding the corner" as I walked across at a crosswalk at 5:00 AM in Seattle on my way to work at a coffee shop. Did I get arrested? No, but it was within the officer's job description to do so.

    Have people been shot or jailed for jaywalking? Jailed, certainly. Shot, probably.
    Treyvon Martin was shot for wearing a hoodie, or at least... that was stated as a contributing factor to shoot.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Did you get convicted by a court? Or did you get cautioned, or whatever the USA equivalent is? Because a slap on the wrists doesn't make you a criminal. A conviction makes you a criminal. Or maybe making a living through illicit activity and never getting caught, I'm happy that person is still a criminal. But getting caught with weed doesn't make you a criminal, not unless you faced a court. Is it legal in your state yet?
    I did have to go to court for the possession of marijuana charge, yes. Obv. I hired a lawyer, and that lawyer got me a slap on the wrist, but if I couldn't have afforded a lawyer, I'm certain that I'd have had a much steeper penalty.

    A whole lot of people are in American prisons for possession of marijuana, ong.

    You're twisting the word criminal. If that's what you mean, then we need a different word that means what police and news agencies mean when they say "a criminal was shot" because simply resisting arrest makes you a criminal in the eyes of the police and the news.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Of course not, but I do think cops should be armed in a nation where the people are armed, and I do think cops should be able to use minimal force to neutralise a threat. Minimal might mean lethal force if the threat is strong enough. Obviously what happened to Floyd is not minimal force, there is no reason that guy should be dead. But he still chose a life of a criminal. He didn't jaywalk into it.
    I can't even understand this jump to defending the use of force against non-violent people.
    What are you even defending, here?

    How is passing a counterfeit bill any more violent than jaywalking?
    What was the threat that needed neutralizing?

    and let's not get all focused on George Floyd as though it's one case that is not representative of a national crisis in police use of force and lack of accountability to the people they're sworn to "serve and protect." Criminals are citizens who the police are sworn to serve and protect, too. They don't get to decide that some citizens deserve their service and protection, but not others. That's absolute BS. Criminals are citizens, too.
    Non-violent people should have 100% certainty that the police can't arbitrarily choose to be afraid of them and kill them.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is interesting but doesn't come close to telling the full story. What about in Chicago? Or whichever location we're talking about where a black guy gets shot? I don't know how much that figure is skewed by rednecks and their shotguns, a different demographic to homies with pistols.
    Just looking for more excuses to justify this notion that black people are criminals, eh?
    Answer your own questions with data. It's clear that me providing you with data is falling on deaf ears (blind eyes?)
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.

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