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I said, "Refresh my memory on the last time you spent more than 1 post giving as much of a heated defense of any left-wing policy as you have to the wall issue, please."
re. your opening paragraph. That's cool and all, but it doesn't address what I said. Have you ever taken a pages long stand on any of those issues?
'cause I'm sorry if I painted you as more right-wing than centrist if that how you see yourself, but it's not the impression you've made here.
That's a very interesting study from Yale. I was wrong. Your number seems better.
Oh FFS.
 Originally Posted by spoon
Walls work
there's no nuance. Walls work.
FACT: Walls work.
I'm trying to build a wall.
he cries into the wind as the walls close in around him.
As if you saying a thing makes the facts on the table go away.
Fact: a wall doesn't stop someone, it slows them down, buying more time for law enforcement to apprehend them in the act.
Fact: an unmanned wall isn't even going to slow people down by a significant amount.
Information that you posted, which was contrary to my expectation drew these interesting conclusions:
The immigration population is roughly double what we've thought it's been for decades. It didn't suddenly double, it's just that our metrics for estimating a hidden population were not very good. However, our metrics for measuring crimes committed has been fine. We already knew that crime rates among illegal immigrants was lower than the citizenry, now we know it's half that still. So the crime committed by illegal immigrants is apparently a red herring. It needs to be dropped from a civilized discussion of why illegal immigration is bad for crime.
Same for jobs taken. Whatever the rate of jobs taken by illegal immigrants, that rate is from a population 2x the size we thought it was.
So these pressures on (these aspects of) American life are put to the test and come out not compelling.
I hadn't expected that. No, it doesn't change my opinion because I while interesting, my opinion was never rooted in these data.
Your opinion, on the other hand, is partially rooted in the criminal behavior of illegal immigrants, so at least that part I'm curious about.
Do you have anything to refute the validity of the source you just offered? (and does that mean you abandon the 25 M number for the 11.3 M number?)
Originally Posted by spoon
I'm really over this ladder argument. Honestly, it's pathetic. First of all, if Trump was able to build the wall he wanted...ladders wouldn't work. You can't perch yourself on top while you lift the ladder over. Two ladders? Maybe. They would have to be really tall. They would have to be really strong. Picture it, would people orderly climb over one at a time? Or would they just all climb up the ladder single file? How many people are on the ladder at once? How strong does this ladder have to be? How much would that ladder weigh? How easily could something like that be carried through the desert?
Are you actually descending into dementia during this post?
Are you that much smarter than the average bear that you're the only one who would think of TWO ladders?
Well.. Again... at least you're on our side, huh?
You don't even need a saw to make a ladder. Just some sticks and twine and you're set. Bonus: Mr. Cayote's already got one stashed in a gully about a 1/4 mile from the wall.
As to the rest... just c'mon, man. One team borks a ladder and has to fix it with some sticks and twine on the fly and then everyone gets over and takes the rope down the other side ('cause they don't have your 2-ladder genius *wink*). The Cayote takes the borked ladder and stashes it back in the gully, 'cause he's not crossing. He don't give a fuck if they live or die. He got paid to get them across, and he did.
Those people are desperate, but they're still people. They're not stupid. They don't lack creativity and problem solving skills. They have a lot of time on their hands and motivation to not get caught.
Originally Posted by spoon
How likely is it that someone would be able to approach the wall, set up the apparatus to get people climbing over it, herd people over it, and then move into america undetected? Without a wall, all they have to do is walk on through.
99%+ for an unmanned wall. 'bout the same as no wall. A manned wall is a totally different story, though, and not really answerable by me.
I don't get you. Would a wall would stop you, spoon, if you wanted past it, and were determined to break the law to do so. You think an unmanned 30 foot wall is "stopping" you? With your 2-ladder genius?
Naaaaaah.
You're a smart guy, but this doesn't require genius, man.
Originally Posted by spoon
And locks are for honest people. So leave your front door open and stop locking your car.
You make it sound like crimes of opportunity aren't a thing. Or that illegal immigration is a crime of opportunity.
That's funny.
I wasn't going to go to Mexico, but I mean.. I was in Texas, and like, Mexico's right there, unprotected by a huge fuck-off wall... so I illegally immigrated. lolz. YOLO!
You on the populism thing still? You now telling me that asking a question in black and white is implying some position on my part? C'mon, man. Communication. You can do it real good when you want to. I've clarified my question had nothing to do with me making an assertion, rather just pointing out that by your own words, it's not so cut-and-dry as "everyone who voted for Trump did so because they totally support all of his policies, ergo a mandate on his campaign promises."
If I write it in all caps will you stop with the thing where you think I care about what have never mentioned?
I DON'T CARE WHY YOU WANT THE WALL.
I care why you think it's good for America's future. Subtle, but different.
You want the wall 'cause democracy. Fine.
Not interesting.
You said you not only want the wall 'cause democracy, but also 'cause it's best for America.
That's interesting.
What problems do you think a wall addresses?
Is a wall the optimal solution to those problems?
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