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  1. #1651
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out the best course of action to when a response to what I have said assumes I said something different than what I said and applies absurdity to what I said.

    I probably should have used the high ground maneuver.
    Just say 'reductio ad bananum' and move on.
  2. #1652
    Tony Martin shot two burglars in the back as they were leaving. He should've shot them when they were coming in.

    Day one, they were scouting. They woukd've seen I was in. Day two they show up at the same time. It seems to me they didn't think they were seen day one, so thought they could get away with it day two.

    They could be burglars. They could also be locals who knew the house was unoccupied and aren't yet aware someone has moved in. There's lots of valuable stuff in empty houses... boilers, copper pipes, all sorts. But they came back when I was in... I really do think they were looking at the oil tank. It's a problem in rural England, and its visible from the lane. If that's what they were doing, they won't be back because they know I have their reg.

    I slept ok last night.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #1653
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Assuming that guy was really scouting you out and not getting cucked by his satnav... the reason he's scouting out houses is to find out when you're not home. So even if you're lucky enough to catch him red handed, and you can actually get to your gun, and it's the 0,1% of that case where that guy wasn't just going to run either way... You still live in the UK, so you're still fucked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)
    I don't believe Ong ever leaves his house, does he?

    Also, I think Ong should move to the U.S. if he wants to kill intruders legally. Much easier to do it there.
  4. #1654
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I don't believe Ong ever leaves his house, does he?

    Also, I think Ong should move to the U.S. if he wants to kill intruders legally. Much easier to do it there.
    Of course I leave the house, I have a job now. I'm working from home the rest of this week though, just because I don't want visitors while I'm out.

    And by "working from home" I mean drinking tea and smoking spliffs while still only wearing underwear, faffing about on ebay.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #1655
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Of course I leave the house, I have a job now. I'm working from home the rest of this week though, just because I don't want visitors while I'm out.

    And by "working from home" I mean drinking tea and smoking spliffs while still only wearing underwear, faffing about on ebay.
    Are you getting paid to "work from home"? If so, thumbs up.
  6. #1656
    Yup.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #1657
    Also Florida is nice and warm year round, and as far as I know has a law where if someone comes into your home uninvited you can kill them no questions asked. Seems perfect for you.
  8. #1658
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    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43164634

    fucking luuuuuuuuul

    Yeah because a security guard, let alone a teacher will risk their live to execute a student that's going allahu akhbar in the cafeteria.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  9. #1659
    How is that funny? How does that even support anyone's political position? How does that reflect badly on anyone other than that "guard"?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #1660
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43164634

    fucking luuuuuuuuul

    Yeah because a security guard, let alone a teacher will risk their live to execute a student that's going allahu akhbar in the cafeteria.
    But that's pretty much his job isn't it? I'm pretty sure it asks on the application form 'are you willing to risk your life to execute a student that's going allah akbar in the cafeteria?'

    I mean he's there to protect kids. Guy seems like kind of a pussy to me.
  11. #1661
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Also Florida is nice and warm year round, and as far as I know has a law where if someone comes into your home uninvited you can kill them no questions asked. Seems perfect for you.
    Is weed legal in Florida?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #1662
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    It is!

    edit: complicated
    I thought it was.

    What a shame.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  13. #1663
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Is weed legal in Florida?
    Dunno. But I'm sure you can find a state that ticks that box and the shoot first box too.
  14. #1664
    Also, I'd be more inclined to say a teacher will be MORE likely to put his life on the line for the benefit of children.

    Something to do with what compelled him to be a teacher in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  15. #1665
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    How is that funny? How does that even support anyone's political position? How does that reflect badly on anyone other than that "guard"?
    If an armed guard who does fuck all year round, and who's only job is to take a bullet in the belly in that type of situation... if that guy just fucks off during a school shooting, good luck having armed teachers do anything.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  16. #1666
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Also, I'd be more inclined to say a teacher will be MORE likely to put his life on the line for the benefit of children.

    Something to do with what compelled him to be a teacher in the first place.
    Being around a bunch of teenagers all day long would make me doubt that.
  17. #1667
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    If an armed guard who does fuck all year round, and who's only job is to take a bullet in the belly in that type of situation... if that guy just fucks off during a school shooting, good luck having armed teachers do anything.
    eh, I think some of them would. I mean DJT would go in there with no gun and tackle the guy.
  18. #1668
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    Even if it was effective, it's the equivalent problem solving to buying a fire retardent suit if your kitchen is on fire. Or taking scuba lessons when your basement is flooded, and then rambling on about how the plumber union is not going to run your life.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  19. #1669
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    If an armed guard who does fuck all year round, and who's only job is to take a bullet in the belly in that type of situation... if that guy just fucks off during a school shooting, good luck having armed teachers do anything.
    I think you missed the point about "something about what compelled them to be teachers in the first place".

    You might get the odd teacher who agrees to have a gun and then bottles it when shit hits the fan. Just like you get the odd security guard who shits his pants. I think most of us here would do more than he did, let alone a teacher.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #1670
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think you missed the point about "something about what compelled them to be teachers in the first place".
    You mean the desire to risk their lives for other people's kids? Don't think that's what motivates many teachers.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You might get the odd teacher who agrees to have a gun and then bottles it when shit hits the fan. Just like you get the odd security guard who shits his pants. I think most of us here would do more than he did, let alone a teacher.
    Meh, handgun vs. AR-15, I wouldn't really like my odds. Of course if it was my job I might feel obligated to run in there and probably die, but mostly to avoid the shame of being a huge pussy, not 'cause I love kids.
  21. #1671
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    Pretty sure that guy had his fair share of heroic fantasies. But there's a divide in the person you think you are when you're looking at yourself in the mirror wearing your favorite holster and the person you are when you hear a faint popping sound followed by screams of terror over in the next building.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  22. #1672
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    When put into those terms. I'm not sure those are the most productive terms.
    What would be more productive? If shootings are the disease, what are the symptoms?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  23. #1673
    Does anyone really think that guard represents the average person?

    Oskar is right in that you don't know who you really are until you're put in that situation. I'd like to think I'd do more, and would be ashamed of myself (perhaps suicidal) if I didn't. But that suicidal caveat... there's my motivation to act.

    We're talking about one coward here. Noone has yet pulled up another guard who did fuck all. We have one coward guard, and one dumbass teacher who accidentally shot a kid. Stacked up against the number of dead kids we have thanks to maniacs, it's not close is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #1674
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Does anyone really think that guard represents the average person?
    I'd say guards (the garden variety supermarket kind) represent those with power-trippy personality disorders who couldn't get into police academy, and students wanting some extra cash on night shifts. So no, not the average person.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  25. #1675
    Are you guys really just hearing about this now? This has been in the news prominently since about 5 minutes after the shooting.

    Part of the problem is that the guy was a coward. There's not much you can do about that. I mean, there are probably psych tests that cops have to take and from that they can figure out who's a pussy and who's a stud. Then give the pussies the really easy low risk jobs.....like guarding a school where nothing happens 99.9999999% of the time.

    Another part of the problem is training. It's not clear how well trained this officer was to deal with this particular situation. That is surprising and sad. One of the beneficial side-effects of school shootings, is that law enforcement has been able to develop advanced techniques for this exact situation. Now there is widespread literature on effective methods to confront shooters. If that training was not implemented, then this coward cop deserves decidedly less than full blame.

    Even if the training was implemented at some point, it's clear that it was not well reinforced. One of the details that's swirled around this story is the lack of drills, practice, and refreshed training. There's a reason we put soldiers through hell all day every day even in peace time. It's so that when the war starts....they'll be able to call upon their training, and suppress instincts of fear and doubt. In crisis, your mind goes to what's rehearsed, familiar, and comfortable.
  26. #1676
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    We're talking about one coward here. Noone has yet pulled up another guard who did fuck all. We have one coward guard, and one dumbass teacher who accidentally shot a kid. Stacked up against the number of dead kids we have thanks to maniacs, it's not close is it?
    Didn't the first three cops from that county show up and hide behind cars too? Or is that some liberal progapanda.

    Also, think there was another dumbass teacher a couple weeks ago who accidentally discharged their firearm but with no injuries.

    So up the first number from 1 to 4 and the second from 1 to 2.
  27. #1677
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Are you guys really just hearing about this now? This has been in the news prominently since about 5 minutes after the shooting.

    Part of the problem is that the guy was a coward. There's not much you can do about that. I mean, there are probably psych tests that cops have to take and from that they can figure out who's a pussy and who's a stud. Then give the pussies the really easy low risk jobs.....like guarding a school where nothing happens 99.9999999% of the time.

    Another part of the problem is training. It's not clear how well trained this officer was to deal with this particular situation. That is surprising and sad. One of the beneficial side-effects of school shootings, is that law enforcement has been able to develop advanced techniques for this exact situation. Now there is widespread literature on effective methods to confront shooters. If that training was not implemented, then this coward cop deserves decidedly less than full blame.

    Even if the training was implemented at some point, it's clear that it was not well reinforced. One of the details that's swirled around this story is the lack of drills, practice, and refreshed training. There's a reason we put soldiers through hell all day every day even in peace time. It's so that when the war starts....they'll be able to call upon their training, and suppress instincts of fear and doubt. In crisis, your mind goes to what's rehearsed, familiar, and comfortable.
    All that training costs money. If the US wasn't so concerned with spending such a large chunk of its GDP on keeping its military trained and armed to the teeth to face imaginary threats like being invaded by Canada, maybe they would have more to spend on mental health and ways to prevent their own people from going on killing sprees on a regular basis.
  28. #1678
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Didn't the first three cops from that county show up and hide behind cars too? Or is that some liberal progapanda.
    This suggests lack of training. The probability that 4 out of 4 cops are pants-wetting pussies is really low. Especially when they are standing near 3 of their peers. Soldiers in war don't act that way.

    It's clear that these cops had no fucking clue what to do, and that's a humonguous driver of the problem.

    http://video.foxnews.com/v/575243592...#sp=show-clips
  29. #1679
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    All that training costs money. If the US wasn't so concerned with spending such a large chunk of its GDP on keeping its military trained and armed to the teeth to face imaginary threats like being invaded by Canada, maybe they would have more to spend on mental health and ways to prevent their own people from going on killing sprees on a regular basis.
    This sounds like something you heard in a humanities class where the professor holds class outside, barefoot, with a guitar, wearing a poncho that smells like Ong's pot drawer.

    It costs exactly the same amount of money for that cop to rehearse and active-shooter drill, as it does to pay him to ride a golf cart around campus and jerk off in the bushes.

    It's not a money problem. And if it is a money problem....what do you think this cost...

    Last edited by BananaStand; 03-16-2018 at 10:27 AM.
  30. #1680
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    My knowledge about the Florida shooting was that there was a school shooting in Florida up to a couple of hours ago. Not the type of news I typically follow up on.

    Anyway... so what's the solution then? Deploy highly trained gunmen in every school? Who's going to pay for that? Take it out of the wall fund?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  31. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    The probability that 4 out of 4 cops are pants-wetting pussies is really low.
    Anecdotally I have different data.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  32. #1682
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Anyway... so what's the solution then? Deploy highly trained gunmen in every school? Who's going to pay for that? Take it out of the wall fund?
    It's really not hard. Go watch the video I posted. The data suggests that confronting the gunman almost immediately results in the stoppage of killing. Either the gunman is overtaken by a more trained, more skilled, more courageous interloper....or once confronted, the shooter figures the jig is up and kills himself.

    You an Poop keep talking about money. But that's not even a problem. The money is already being spent just putting the cop on duty. He's already there....being paid. Is it really a hectic and time-consuming job to patrol a school? are you really telling me he can't spend some of his time reviewing training procedures, conducting drills, and attending training classes (which are ALREADY available!!).

    The incremental cost of giving this particular cop better training would have been exactly $0.

    Why is money a concern?
  33. #1683
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    It costs exactly the same amount of money for that cop to rehearse and active-shooter drill, as it does to pay him to ride a golf cart around campus and jerk off in the bushes.

    It's not a money problem. And if it is a money problem....what do you think this cost...
    No, it's much more expensive, and yes, it's a money problem. But not only that, it's not a problem that should exist because other countries do not have that problem. There's no debate on whether or not there should be armed guards in schools of other developed countries because there's no other country where students are the target of shootings like that. If it were, you'd have a point, but it's not and there are ways to deal with this issue directly that are not fucking retarded.
    Last edited by oskar; 03-16-2018 at 10:46 AM.
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  34. #1684
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    The incremental cost of giving this particular cop better training would have been exactly $0.
    Please, just for yourself, detail the specific steps that have to be taken for a cop to receive additional training for that type of situation and figure out a way how the cost could possibly be zero.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  35. #1685
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    My knowledge about the Florida shooting was that there was a school shooting in Florida up to a couple of hours ago. Not the type of news I typically follow up on.

    Anyway... so what's the solution then? Deploy highly trained gunmen in every school? Who's going to pay for that? Take it out of the wall fund?

    It doesn't matter because money gets wasted in lots of ways and so arguing about spending that money on prevention makes you a liberal hippy stoner.
  36. #1686
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Please, just for yourself, detail the specific steps that have to be taken for a cop to receive additional training for that type of situation and figure out a way how the cost could possibly be zero.
    It's simple. Instead of sitting in his office watching youtube rips of Mall Cop, he is forced to watch a war hero movie where the guy throws himself on a grenade.
  37. #1687
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    So up the first number from 1 to 4 and the second from 1 to 2.
    Fuck me, we can almost call this a sample.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #1688
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Please, just for yourself, detail the specific steps that have to be taken for a cop to receive additional training for that type of situation and figure out a way how the cost could possibly be zero.
    Well, the cops are being paid for their time anyway. They can spend their day pacing around campus killing time until their next coffee break. Or they could use that time working on being better cops. It costs the same.

    Any number, minus itself, equals zero.
  39. #1689
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    Your link doesn't work for me, but here's some highly trained donut destroyers at work:
    https://youtu.be/qJFHPgxYpAQ?t=1m3s
    Not sure how deploying that fucking Three Stooges ensemble in schools around the country is going to decrease gun deaths.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  40. #1690
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Well, the cops are being paid for their time anyway. They can spend their day pacing around campus killing time until their next coffee break. Or they could use that time working on being better cops. It costs the same.

    Any number, minus itself, equals zero.
    WHO TRAINS THEM?
    Who works while they're being trained?
    Who pays for the facility they're being trained at?

    By your logic, we could put every citizen in a task force, pay them a cops wages, perpetually train them, and there you go: costs nothing, pays wages, pays taxes... economy saved!
    Last edited by oskar; 03-16-2018 at 11:01 AM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  41. #1691
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Fuck me, we can almost call this a sample.
    All of which points to the obvious fact that trying to quantify the issue in terms of number of idiots and cowards per capita is not useful.
  42. #1692
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    WHO TRAINS THEM?
    Who trains them to be cops in the first place?

    It's like any other profession that requires continuing education. Cops get specialized training all the time. If your city is having a heroin crisis, your cops will be trained to recognize heroin addicts, how to deal with them, how to identify the drug, etc etc etc. This is all built into the budget in the first place.

    Who works while they're being trained?
    Who works when they take a sick day?? This is already built into the budget. Cops don't just graduate from the academy and then venture out into the world unassissted. New techniques of law enforcement are being developed all the time. They are rolled out through targeted training programs all the time. This is already happening. It's already paid for. It's already built into the budget.

    Who pays for the facility they're being trained at?
    Again...sunk cost.
  43. #1693
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    Great. Solved the economy! Wanna do free energy next?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  44. #1694
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Great. Solved the economy! Wanna do free energy next?
    are you high right now?

    The problem is literally as simple as demanding better performance from cops. They can spend their time being lazy fuck-heads, or they can spend their time getting better at being cops. The time is already paid for.
  45. #1695
    I think the gist of banana's argument is:

    1. The cops are already in the school.
    2. They are being trained to do something useless, like how to talk to kids, when they could be trained to do something useful like how to take down an armed maniac.
    3. fixing the problem is a matter of changing priorities, it doesn't have to cost more money.

    How about all the training of armed teachers then? Do you just take them off teacher conferences and instead put them on SWAT training?
  46. #1696
    If we're gonna play the "who pays" game.....

  47. #1697
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If we're gonna play the "who pays" game.....

    Well yea that's fucking lol-retarded if true. Is that a real photo or just a screen-grab from Fox News?

    Not sure what your point is in any case. Someone should make the dept. spend less money on paint jobs for its cars and more on something useful? LDO
  48. #1698
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    All of which points to the obvious fact that trying to quantify the issue in terms of number of idiots and cowards per capita is not useful.
    So why are people posting these articles in "support" of anti-gun laws?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  49. #1699
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Well yea that's fucking lol-retarded if true. Is that a real photo or just a screen-grab from Fox News?
    It's real. The lambo pic is also real, but that was a promotional thing that didn't cost the sheriff department any money. Still a real bad look though.

    Someone should make the dept. spend less money on paint jobs for its cars and more on something useful?
    Yeah, like maybe the guy who's face is panted on the passenger door. But he's too busy ranting on CNN about gun laws because if people didn't have guns....his job would be alot cushier.
  50. #1700
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    are you high right now?

    The problem is literally as simple as demanding better performance from cops. They can spend their time being lazy fuck-heads, or they can spend their time getting better at being cops. The time is already paid for.
    Why hasn't anybody else thought of this?
    Demand higher performance! Why of course!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  51. #1701
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Why hasn't anybody else thought of this?
    Demand higher performance! Why of course!
    You say this as if the actions of the Broward county law enforcement was already meeting a pre-shooting standard of adequacy. They weren't.

    It's clear that their repeated dereliction contributed significantly to the circumstances that made the shooting possible.

    Let's switch gears for a minute since you're so concerned with the economics of it.

    If, hypothetically, the government enacted gun legislation in response to this....who pays?

    Background checks cost money
    Enforcement costs money
    Prosecution costs money
    Incarceration costs money

    Laws cost money. Who pays?
    Last edited by BananaStand; 03-16-2018 at 12:09 PM.
  52. #1702
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So why are people posting these articles in "support" of anti-gun laws?
    Don't think they are posting them for that purpose. I think they post them because it's funny.
  53. #1703
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    Oh that is easy. The people doing background checks were already doing background checks, so sunk cost, right?
    Enforcement was slacking off anyway, encourage them to do more enforcement for free.
    Procecution: see enforcement.
    Incarceration: jails already exist, so checkmate
    Laws are already lawyering. See Incarceration.

    Dun did it
    Beat you at your own game.
    Behold the new dunce of FTR!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  54. #1704
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Don't think they are posting them for that purpose. I think they post them because it's funny.
    It's not funny. If that pissy pants pussy was better trained, or replaced with someone who is not a pissy pants pussy, then one or two or five lives might have been saved.

    Nothing about that is comical.
  55. #1705
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    The people doing background checks were already doing background checks, so sunk cost, right?
    No, variable costs are never sunk. More checks means more people doing checks and more people costs money.

    Enforcement was slacking off anyway, encourage them to do more enforcement for free
    Not more...better. It's possible sometimes, to achieve more with the same resources.

    Procecution: see enforcement.
    Variable cost. More offenders means more prosecutions, means more prosecutors.

    Incarceration: jails already exist, so checkmate
    Variable cost with some fixed elements. Yes the building exists, but more inmates means more food, water, and utilities are consumed by that prison. It also means more guards.

    Beat you at your own game.
    You wish. A shithead pussypants cop walking around with his dick in his hand costs the same as a dedicated, well trained cop capable of action. What are you missing.
  56. #1706
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    It's not funny. If that pissy pants pussy was better trained, or replaced with someone who is not a pissy pants pussy, then one or two or five lives might have been saved.

    Nothing about that is comical.
    I agree, and was referring to the link to the teacher shooting his gun off accidentally.
  57. #1707
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    A shithead pussypants cop walking around with his dick in his hand costs the same as a dedicated, well trained cop capable of action. What are you missing.
    Isn't the pussypants cop at the school specifically because he's not good enough to do a real cop job? Isn't he basically put there in a mall cop capacity?

    So if you replace him with someone better trained and more capable, yeah it's probably going to cost something, multiplied by every school in the country.
  58. #1708
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Isn't the pussypants cop at the school specifically because he's not good enough to do a real cop job?
    Possibly. That's not definitively known.

    Regardless, the data clearly shows that better training methods were available, at a very low or even $0 cost, and just weren't used.
  59. #1709
  60. #1710
    Check this shit out. I just heard that Richard Simmons, androgynous fitness guru (I use all those terms loosely), sued a tabloid for slander or defamation or whatever the technical term is for spreading unfounded lies about a person for profit.

    The paper claimed that Simmons was transgender and transitioning to female-ness.

    Simmons denies it. The court agreed with Simmons. The court found that there was no merit to claims of transgenerism or transitioning and that the paper was completely erroneous.

    However, the court ruled against Simmons anyway. The court said that there was nothing disparaging, slanderous, or defamatory about being labeled transgender. So Simmons lost the case AND has to pay the tabloids legal fees of $130K as punishment for suing them for a silly reason

    What the fucking fuckety fuck?
  61. #1711
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Mental healthcare isn't exactly magic. People don't usually go from no signs of a personality disorder to mass murder. A good sign to give as an example would someone literally saying "I'm going to murder a lot of people," and you take that as an incentive to take him aside and talk to him. The most recent school shooter has done exactly that.

    It's also worth thinking about why this is such a localized phenomenon.
    It isn't a localized phenomenon. The media hates guns (and America), so they only cover the topic in terms that make guns (and America) look bad.

    If I wanted to be bad at statistics, I'd talk about how Anders Breivik shot the statistics on mass killings through the roof for Norway. But I'm not bad at statistics so I won't mention it. The Breivik/Norway statistics don't tell us much; likewise these other statistics don't tell us much.

    lack of mental healthcare?
    I would certainly think that mental health is an issue. Concealed carry advocates are huge proponents of mental health.

    arming teachers
    Only the ones with as high of qualifications as cops.

    More kids would be saved.
  62. #1712
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    What would be more productive? If shootings are the disease, what are the symptoms?
    I don't think either is 'the disease" or "the symptoms". Those are in the eye of the beholder. The variables are complex and exist within a dynamic framework.

    If mental health is the disease and shootings are the symptoms, then wouldn't solving mental health stop shootings? Well, not really, at least not in achievable terms. The knowledge to solve the mental health problem is not comprehensive, and even where progress is made, some people will always fall through the cracks (this is unavoidable).

    This reality may be one reason why self-defense and deterrence are such mainstays for humankind since the dawn of time. I may not know how to fix every problem, but I sure can stop somebody from making their ill ways harmful to me by protecting myself.
  63. #1713
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    It isn't a localized phenomenon. The media hates guns (and America), so they only cover the topic in terms that make guns (and America) look bad.
    That doesn't make any sense to me. This is clearly a problem that only exists in america. The media has nothing to do with this. Kids shoot up schools in america. They don't anywhere else in the world. So how is this not a problem exclusive to america?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  64. #1714
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I don't think either is 'the disease" or "the symptoms". Those are in the eye of the beholder. The variables are complex and exist within a dynamic framework.
    Sure, but I think that's an apt depiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    If mental health is the disease and shootings are the symptoms, then wouldn't solving mental health stop shootings? Well, not really, at least not in achievable terms. The knowledge to solve the mental health problem is not comprehensive, and even where progress is made, some people will always fall through the cracks (this is unavoidable).
    I'd say solving mental health issues would stop most shootings. Whether mental health issues are fully solvable, at least for the time being, is of course a completely different issue. It's definitely not a silver bullet, that's why I'd endorse it as part of the solution, not as the solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    This reality may be one reason why self-defense and deterrence are such mainstays for humankind since the dawn of time. I may not know how to fix every problem, but I sure can stop somebody from making their ill ways harmful to me by protecting myself.
    As another part of the solution, as a last resort, absolutely. Though not in a way that can potentially do more harm than good. Until proven otherwise, I would put teachers with guns in that category. Armed professionals is another thing, but that brings a whole slew of other issues that at least I wouldn't want for my kids. If things escalate any more I'm sure your administration is gonna start considering preemptive drone strikes against possible targets.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  65. #1715
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    That doesn't make any sense to me. This is clearly a problem that only exists in america. The media has nothing to do with this. Kids shoot up schools in america. They don't anywhere else in the world. So how is this not a problem exclusive to america?
    https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/co...us-and-europe/

    US doesn't rank in the top ten. France is ahead of US as well as lots of Europe. Norway leads the pack by about 6x as #2

    One of the main things these data show is that thinking in terms of a handful of statistics on the subject is misleading. Norway is a great example of this. Breivik skews the data like crazy.

    I think thinking of these things conceptually is more fruitful than focusing on statistics that capture merely a tiny component of the whole. For example, why was Breivik so damn successful? There are many potential reasons, one of which may include that the culture of self-defense in Norway may be lacking. Breivik could not have done what he did in any region in Texas where concealed carry is common.
  66. #1716
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    teachers with guns
    Only those with the highest qualifications.
  67. #1717
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    How much more disingenuous can you get? Are you just trying to rustle me or is this now your actual mode of operation? We're talking about school shootings in first world countries and you deny that this is an american problem, and as proof you bring up data that includes all types of terror attacks and includes countries that don't even remotely compare economically or culturally to the US.


    Only those with the highest qualifications.
    You mean comparable to those of a security officer?

    This is laughable. You guys call for armed guards at schools. Then when a school has armed guards and they do nothing, the solution is: more and more betterer armed guards! If they do start arming teachers I guarantee that 3 years from now a teacher will shoot up a classroom and you guys will go: well, I guess it's time to arm students! But only the most select and best trained students!
    Honestly your country is heading for full-on Idiocracy at ludicrous speed. I'll enjoy watching it from a distance.
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  68. #1718
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    And I don't agree that mental health is the main issue, because other countries have a comparative track record regarding mental health. But in other countries you can't buy an AR-15 after having been diagnosed with a mental disorder.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  69. #1719
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    How much more disingenuous can you get? Are you just trying to rustle me or is this now your actual mode of operation? We're talking about school shootings in first world countries
    I'm not. Forgive me if I misunderstood you initially. I thought we were talking about mass shootings.

    data that includes all types of terror attacks
    The link has that in addition to mass shootings.

    You mean comparable to those of a security officer?
    Depends on the kind. Secret service? Sure. Special forces? Sure.

    Nobody is suggesting forcing teachers to be armed (except maybe people engaging in straw man). That would be a terrible idea. I suggest allowing the handful of civilians with the highest qualifications carry in the highly targeted by wannabe mass murderers "gun free zones" just like they already carry in the not targeted by wannabe mass murderers non-gun-free-zones.

    armed guards at schools.
    I wouldn't know much about that. There does not appear to be that big of groundswell support for this among those who prioritize civilian defense against wrongdoers.

    Then when a school has armed guards and they do nothing, the solution is: more and more betterer armed guards! If they do start arming teachers I guarantee that 3 years from now a teacher will shoot up a classroom and you guys will go: well, I guess it's time to arm students! But only the most select and best trained students!
    Honestly your country is heading for full-on Idiocracy at ludicrous speed. I'll enjoy watching it from a distance.
    Caricatures and absurdities are a tell that more thoughtful consideration would be helpful.
  70. #1720
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Your caricatures and absurdities are a tell that more thoughtful consideration would be helpful.
    Eat a dick.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  71. #1721
    I guarantee that 3 years from now a teacher will shoot up a classroom
    If this happens, are you to assume it's a direct reult of allowing him to have a gun in the classroon? Or is it possible that he would've done it anyway?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  72. #1722
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    He could have done it with a compass and chalk if he really wanted to, because guns don't kill people; people kill people. More thoughtful consideration, please.
    Last edited by oskar; 03-17-2018 at 04:13 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  73. #1723
    More thoughtful? Teacher lives in a country where guns are available, is a nutjob who wants to shoot kids, deciding factor whether to do it is... am I actually allowed to take this gun into school?

    Please.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  74. #1724
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    The teacher shooting up the classroom thing was hyperbole. And I was meming wuf with the "thoughtful consideration" thing if that wasn't obvious.
    If you would ask me with no prior knowledge what the probability of a negligent discharge by a gun safety instructor during a gun safety demonstration was, I'd put the odds in the millionth percentile. Make that a safety demonstration that is being filmed inside a classroom, I'd say we're approaching an infinitesimal number. Yet there have been a number of these incidents and at least two of them inside a classroom full of minors.

    While that is completely incomprehensible to me, it is happening. Now multiply the number of guns in a chaotic environment like a classroom, add overworked teachers who are so underfunded that they have to pay for school supplies out of pocket, and the fact that even trained police officers occasionally execute toddlers with toy guns, and you got yourself some dead kids. More dead kids than kids saved from other kids... maybe. Still not a solution that sounds effective to me. Especially not when other approaches are glaringly obvious.

    For instance: When a kid is diagnosed by a professional to have a mental disorder/deficiency; who has made terroristic threats in his name on social media; who has been brought to the attention of the authorities - is still able to get his background check passed, buys a semi automatic weapon plus hundreds of rounds of ammunition and then stroll past the armed security officer onto the premise... how do you look at that and go: nothing to worry about here, but we better go and arm teachers because that's the obvious thing to do.
    Last edited by oskar; 03-17-2018 at 06:09 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  75. #1725
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Now multiply the number of guns in a chaotic environment like a classroom, add overworked teachers who are so underfunded that they have to pay for school supplies out of pocket, and the fact that even trained police officers occasionally execute toddlers with toy guns, and you got yourself some dead kids. More dead kids than kids saved from other kids... maybe. Still not a solution that sounds effective to me. Especially not when other approaches are glaringly obvious.
    This type of thing exists all over the place with concealed carry, and the *fears* don't manifest.

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