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  1. #9301
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    It's repeating a claim that the judge ruled was not a legal position before the trial even started.
    So either the judge and proceedings are biased against him or he has terrible lawyers who haven't got the bollocks to advise Trump properly, which means telling him what he doesn't want to hear. If what he's saying is reasonable evidence, then it's not reasonable for the judge to dismiss it. On the other hand, if it's not reasonable evidence, then his lawyers really do need to get control of their client.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  2. #9302
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So either the judge and proceedings are biased against him or he has terrible lawyers who haven't got the bollocks to advise Trump properly, which means telling him what he doesn't want to hear. If what he's saying is reasonable evidence, then it's not reasonable for the judge to dismiss it. On the other hand, if it's not reasonable evidence, then his lawyers really do need to get control of their client.
    His claim is that since [the forms he submitted to various financial institutions claiming the value of his properties] contained a phrase like, "these are all guesses / do your own research" means that he's not committed fraud by the false claims in those documents.

    The judge ruled before the trial began that this is nonsense.

    Note: this is not a criminal trial. The burden of evidence is "more than likely" not "beyond a reasonable doubt."

    And of course Trump's lawyers are crap. No decent lawyer would take him as a client. Not only is he obviously guilty of what he's standing trial for... he has this nasty habit of not paying his lawyers over the past many years. Maybe not all his lawyers, but certainly there are some high profile cases where that's been public news.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  3. #9303
    He also famously doesn't listen to his lawyers either. So for all we know, they did tell him 'nonononono, don't read that out,' and he did it anyways.

    I'm also seriously disappointed this is not being televised.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  4. #9304
    I do like how the first thing that springs to Ong's mind is that the judge is biased. The second is that Trump has bad lawyers. Absolutely nothing about the wisdom of ignoring the court's explicit instructions and doing whatever you want in court as if that's ever going to fly.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  5. #9305
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    I do like how the first thing that springs to Ong's mind is that the judge is biased.
    I do like how the first thing you do is challenge what I said when anyone with basic reading comprehension would more than likely conclude that I was offering one highly unlikely scenario followed by a highly likely one. I guess you had to work hard to find a reason to argue with that small comment of mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #9306
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    His claim is that since [the forms he submitted to various financial institutions claiming the value of his properties] contained a phrase like, "these are all guesses / do your own research" means that he's not committed fraud by the false claims in those documents.
    If this is not a criminal court then idk what the fuck he's even doing engaging with this shitshow.

    If he has committed fraud, that is a criminal act and he should face a criminal court with the standard of proof that comes with such courts.

    And there *might* be a legal argument that adding disclaimers to finance reports is enough to avoid committing fraud. But it really is going to depend on the language used. Fraud is wilfully misleading another to gain a financial benefit. But that is what he should be paying his lawyers for, to prepare such reports in ways that he can legally defend.

    And of course Trump's lawyers are crap. No decent lawyer would take him as a client. Not only is he obviously guilty of what he's standing trial for...
    Well, "obviously guilty" is not something a lawyer should be considering. It's not his job to decide if his client is guilty or not. It's his job to decide if his client has a legal defence to the allegations.

    But yeah, pay your fucking lawyers dude, especially if you're going to try to commit legal fraud.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #9307
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If this is not a criminal court then idk what the fuck he's even doing engaging with this shitshow.
    If a defendant in a civil suit chooses not to defend themselves at the trial, that is their right.
    In so doing, the court precedent is to rule unfavorably against the defendant on all counts.

    In this specific trial, the judge already ruled Trump guilty before the trial began. That is well established to be "normal" for civil cases. It doesn't always go like that, but Trump's lawyers waived the right to a jury. In so doing, it is up to the judge to determine innocence or guilt.

    The trial is not to determine innocence or guilt, that's already been decided, it is to determine the severity of consequences for the fraud that was committed.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If he has committed fraud, that is a criminal act and he should face a criminal court with the standard of proof that comes with such courts.
    IDK the particulars of the differences between civil fraud and criminal fraud, but these charges have been pressed by the New York Attorney General as civil charges, as I understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And there *might* be a legal argument that adding disclaimers to finance reports is enough to avoid committing fraud. But it really is going to depend on the language used. Fraud is wilfully misleading another to gain a financial benefit. But that is what he should be paying his lawyers for, to prepare such reports in ways that he can legally defend.
    The real issue for Trump is A) he is a noted real estate mogul and the false claims (only some of which are subjective) are well within the expected expertise of someone with those credentials and B) He's on record (audio and visual) of stating that he uses these documents to secure financial loans and opportunities.

    So his claims of ignorance on either count are just not holding any sway in a court of law. The notion that such egregious misstatements about the square-footage of his home might be accidental are not believed. Trump openly admits that the objectively false statements in his filings are "mistakes" but insists his valuation of his properties several times bigger than anyone else's valuations are because those people are wrong. Which, again, isn't convincing anyone in the courts.

    The fact that he's already admitted to the undeniably false contents of his claims really hurts any argument that the other "mistakes" weren't intentional.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well, "obviously guilty" is not something a lawyer should be considering. It's not his job to decide if his client is guilty or not. It's his job to decide if his client has a legal defence to the allegations.

    But yeah, pay your fucking lawyers dude, especially if you're going to try to commit legal fraud.
    I mean... the lawyers get to choose whether or not to take the job. They are not court appointed public defenders.

    If they look at the case and they're like, "I can't win that case." that's enough for most lawyers to not take it. Why waste their time and resources on a lost cause? Well, for the money, obv. But then when the client has a reputation of not paying his lawyers... well....
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  8. #9308
    There's clearly a USA/UK difference between the distinction of civil and criminal at play here. I mean, in the UK you don't get sued for criminal acts before getting criminally charged for it. If a British criminal court fails to successfully prosecute someone for an alleged crime, then as I understand it there is no hope of a civil case succeeding unless there is new evidence, and that new evidence would probably result in a criminal retrial before any civil proceedings took place.

    There might be an element of a lower threshold of proof for civil courts that result in exceptions, and I might also just be flat out wrong, but morally speaking if someone is guilty of a crime they should face a criminal court before a civil court.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9309
    I don't know anything about the details of this case, but based on what you're telling me it seems he's basically admitted to criminal fraud.

    I can understand why his lawyers would take him on, regardless of expected result or even the issues regarding being paid. It puts their name out there. Some might argue that being a Trump lawyer isn't good for your reputation, but that's for the lawyers to decide.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #9310
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    A quick google search for difference between civil and criminal fraud has explained some things.

    A) you can't be tried for one then the other. The prosecutor has to pick one or the other. Often in these cases, the prosecutor can try to press both charges simultaneously, in the same trial, but the jury would only be able to convict on 1 of them.
    This can vary widely state by state.

    B) The civil charge doesn't even care about guilt. It only cares that harm was done. The defendant in a civil case cannot see personal punishment under the law, per se. The law is only there to determine if a fraud was committed and what appropriate compensation shall be awarded to the defrauded parties. (They may deem this a punishment, but legally, it's not classified that way.) Financial remuneration is the only expected outcome of a civil fraud case. The defendant cannot face prison time or any other legal punishment.

    C) The lack of criminal punishment removes the state's requirement to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the defendant committed fraud. Instead, the prosecution only needs to show that the defendant "more than likely" did the fraud.

    D) Civil fraud can be levied against someone who doesn't themself commit fraud, but whom has others commit fraud for them.


    That's the main differences I gleaned, anyway.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  11. #9311
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Happy Thanksgiving.

    It's a US holiday based on ... uhh... let's not talk about it.
    Just have a gratuitously obscene amount of food with your family or smth.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  12. #9312
    Personally I think that you guys shouldn't celebrate Thanksgiving. It's a British import and you decided all that time ago that you didn't want us to be your overlords.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #9313
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    Just dropping in to lock in my 2024 US presidential election predictions, which are as follows: Trump and Biden both die of dementia. It's Kamala Harris against Ron DeSantis. They somehow both lose, giving the title off POTUS to the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson... Who is that even? Anyway, that's your new president. Mike Johnson. I'm pretty sure of it.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  14. #9314
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Trump voters prob. think it's fake news and vote him in, anyway.
    Some rich asshole turn out their new AI Trumpbot that rules us all from here on out.

    God Bless America!
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  15. #9315
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    good point
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  16. #9316
    Whenever I feel sad about living in a political shithole, I think to myself "at least I'm not American".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #9317
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Trump and Biden both die of dementia.
    I lol'd.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  18. #9318
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Whenever I feel sad about living in a political shithole, I think to myself "at least I'm not American".
    Our PM just made a transphobic joke while the mother of a murdered trans teenager was a guest in the House of Commons. I'd say we're catching up. Still a ways to go though, Trump-level douchiness is a pretty high bar.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  19. #9319
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Whenever I feel sad about living in a political shithole, I think to myself "at least I'm not American".
    It's a shitshow, for sure.

    The good news is that most Americans that aren't on TV / the news / whatever big money platform are pretty sensible and nice people.

    I mean, don't bring up politics or they'll maybe transform into a total nutjob, but even then... most aren't that terrible. Just the typical hypocrisy I've seen around the world.

    Everyone wants the gov't to give them more stuff and fuck off less, but also, they mostly just want to be in charge so they can choose who gets fucked over. Which is fucked up, but altogether normal around the world, AFAICT.

    Seems totally madness to be all, "Ermagherd, I can't believe they treat me like this! They should actually be treating *those people* like this. SMH. So unfair." But there it is. Humans gonna human.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  20. #9320
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H8I-YGElbA&t=377s


    Legally changing my name to Fifteen Nine Elevens right now.
    This is like the girl math memes from a month ago, but with presidents.
    Last edited by oskar; 05-08-2024 at 10:38 AM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  21. #9321
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    Biden bending his back to justify an unjustified invasion and land grab by Israel while still condemning the same by Russia.

    The fact that the US wont put any teeth behind calling out Israel's response as "problematic if true" is fucked up, and being protested across many college campuses in the US, including my own.

    Funny how all the police in the surrounding regions show up to end a peaceful protest, but you can't get one to set foot on campus when there's an active shooter. By funny I mean problematic if true.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  22. #9322
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    The funniest thing is that even after completely embarrassing himself for Netanyahu, Biden lost his homeys by one performative action that was likely just intended to appease anti-genocide voters before fall.

    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  23. #9323
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    The funniest thing is that even after completely embarrassing himself for Netanyahu, Biden lost his homeys by one performative action that was likely just intended to appease anti-genocide voters before fall.

    They can always vote for the other guy.

    https://news.sky.com/story/donald-tr...ppies-13129050
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  24. #9324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    They can always vote for the other guy.

    https://news.sky.com/story/donald-tr...ppies-13129050
    These guys are putting up a fight, but they're facing stiff competition at the world clown awards:

    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  25. #9325
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Biden bending his back to justify an unjustified invasion and land grab by Israel while still condemning the same by Russia.
    Is it the same though? I don't remember Ukraine's elected leaders entering Russia and murdering, torturing and kidnapping random Russians.

    Not that I support Israeli "land grabs", because I absolutely do not. It's just that Israel are responding to a Genghis Khan style assault on their territory, while Russia are responding to their NATO paranoia. One is a very clear and obvious threat, the other is not. Israel's goal of destroying Hamas is morally reasonable, given the risk that Hamas poses to Israeli security.

    After what Hamas did, Palestinians should have immediately taken to the streets to overthrow them. That would have given the population the moral high ground, and possibly might have resulted in Israel taking a less aggressive posture, and play a longer game. Instead the Palestinians celebrated, spat at naked hostages, then appealed to the world to stop the big bully from beating them up.

    Don't elect terrorists.

    Israel's response is of course problematic. And it's shocking that American police are cracking down on peaceful protest in Freedomland. I appreciate that violent and anti-Semitic protests do need to be dealt with, but that doesn't appear to be what the police are cracking down on. They appear to be cracking down on the freedom of assembly and protest.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #9326
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    Ong bending over backwards to differentiate the killing of innocent, non-combatant, non-military people into "good" and "bad."

    Ong forgetting that the stated reason Russia invaded Ukraine was because the Azov Nazis were doing terrorisms to Russians.

    Ong pretending he doesn't know the last election in Palestine was over 18 years ago / claiming the people being killed for their place of birth is justified because a leadership they never had the chance to vote for is their "chosen" leadership.

    Ong suddenly believes the PR from aggressive militant governments at face value without stark incredulousness.

    There was a justified and proportionate response Israel could have made. They (Netenyahu) have no interest in an appropriate or proportional response. They have no interest in remaining within their own national borders. They have repeatedly targeted civilians. They aren't even limiting their campaign against Hamas to only the 1 occupied territory. In Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights, Israel has amplified military operations targeting civilians who have no connection to Hamas.

    Israel has the right to defend itself, but what is happening is not self-defense. It's an aggressive land grab.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  27. #9327
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    Ong forgetting that the stated reason Russia invaded Ukraine was because the Azov Nazis were doing terrorisms to Russians.
    I haven't forgotten. There's a big difference between this and Hamas though. Hamas actually committed a serious act of terrorism against Israel. These neo-Nazis did not do anything to Russia other than maybe exist in a neighbouring country.

    Let's be clear about one thing. There is a serious problem with Nazis in Ukraine, and this is not a security threat to Russia.

    Ong pretending he doesn't know the last election in Palestine was over 18 years ago
    I haven't heard any noise demanding fresh elections or an attempt to overthrow Hamas. Their system of democracy might be far from our standards, but Hamas are still the popular choice, largely because they oppose the existence of Israel.

    ng suddenly believes the PR from aggressive militant governments at face value without stark incredulousness.
    Not at all. But I could say exactly the same about anyone who believes anything Hamas says. They too are an aggressive militant government engaging in PR.

    There was a justified and proportionate response Israel could have made.
    Well this is where we might find some common ground. It's just that I'm fortunate enough to be a distant observer and not someone tasked with deciding what response is appropriate. Nobody should be surprised that Israel have decided that Hamas needs to be destroyed, especially since Israel cannot rely on the Palestinian people to do the job. The question is, what is the minimum required force to achieve the goal of destroying Hamas? I'm glad I'm not the one that has to make that call.

    They aren't even limiting their campaign against Hamas to only the 1 occupied territory. In Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights, Israel has amplified military operations targeting civilians who have no connection to Hamas.
    Well Hamas isn't the only threat. There's a much more serious threat to the north... Hezbollah. And Israel need to be concerned about them too. These groups have a shared ideology, and it doesn't include the existence of Israel. I'll say it again - I most certainly do not support Israeli land grabs, they are hugely counterproductive, and yes this is happening right now under the guise of national security. But what do you think Hamas would be doing if they were the dominant military power? Grabbing land, that's what.

    So it's a bit difficult to pick a side based on land grabs. Conventional warfare sucks, but it's largely avoidable. This war certainly was avoidable. All Hamas had to do was stay the fuck in the Gaza Strip. All Israel had to do to avoid the events of last October was to not exist. Do you see the difference?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #9328
    Before October, I considered the Islamic threat against Israel to be largely exaggerated. By that, I mean I didn't think that Hamas would be so brazen to attack like they did. I thought maybe you might get acts of terrorism in Israeli cities, sponsored by the likes of al-Qaida or whatever they're called these days, but Hamas raiding border villages like Mongols, raping and pillaging? I didn't think that would happen. I didn't think they actually wanted to wipe Israel off the map. Now I do.

    That kind of threat has to be dealt with.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #9329
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    In the very recent history leading up to October the 7th you had years of mostly peaceful protests in the March of Return in which countless atrocities by Israel were ignored by its allies. Mass arrests of Palestinians who were being held without charges, the release of which was a major reason for Hamas taking hostages back to Gaza for exchange. You had the Abraham Accords that left Palestine feeling left out once again. You had Trump moving the Embassy to Jerusalem. An unprecedented expansion in settlements and settler violence. The bombing of the AP building in Gaza that once again was ignored by Israel's allies. The defunding of UNRWA under Trump. The killing of Abu Akleh and the assault on her funeral by Israeli police.

    If you make peaceful resistance impossible... and so on. Because I am an empath, I can say: October 7th: bad, actually. But what did they think was going to happen? -Well, I don't even think Hamas thought it was going to happen at the scale that it did. It looks like they severely underestimated the incompetence of the IDF. What is indicative of Hamas being the dog that caught the car here is that they almost immediately offered to give up the hostages in return for a ceasefire with no other conditions. Bad deal. But Netanyahu didn't take it, because it enabled them to do what they're doing now.

    If you listen to what Likut members say about Palestinians, there really is no ambiguity, and I hate people who dance around the word genocide when you have members of the Knesset constantly say things like they want "total annihilation" and "wipe out the seed of Amalek from under heaven" and "drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza" and "if you don't give up precise weapons, we will use our imprecise weapons" and "there are no innocents in Gaza" and "We are fighting Nazis, you expect us to give food and water to Nazis?" and so on. It's laid out very well by South Africa's case in front of the ICJ if you want to listen to the 3h deposition, they make a pretty concise case.

    But what do you think Hamas would be doing if they were the dominant military power? Grabbing land, that's what.
    Like a wise TV chef once said: If my aunty had wheels, she would be a bicycle. Hamas will never be the dominant military power. Most of what they can do is make fireworks out of unexploded 2000lb bombs Israel dropped on them and shoot them at the iron dome while celebrating the US tax money they burned.
    https://www.statista.com/chart/16516...the-west-bank/
    Last edited by oskar; 05-13-2024 at 12:48 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  30. #9330
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well Hamas isn't the only threat. There's a much more serious threat to the north... Hezbollah. And Israel need to be concerned about them too. These groups have a shared ideology, and it doesn't include the existence of Israel. I'll say it again - I most certainly do not support Israeli land grabs, they are hugely counterproductive, and yes this is happening right now under the guise of national security. But what do you think Hamas would be doing if they were the dominant military power? Grabbing land, that's what.
    All nations are threats to other nations. That doesn't justify violence against civilians / non-militants / non-combatants.
    Nothing does.
    It's brutal murder with no justification.
    Fighting against people who want to kill you is one thing. Killing everyone in their general vicinity is totally a different thing.

    Telling everyone who's not a combatant to go to a certain place to be out of harms way, then bombing that place when they get there is beyond any forgivable or defensible act. It's not an act of war or of justice against terrorists. It's brutal murder.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So it's a bit difficult to pick a side based on land grabs. Conventional warfare sucks, but it's largely avoidable. This war certainly was avoidable. All Hamas had to do was stay the fuck in the Gaza Strip. All Israel had to do to avoid the events of last October was to not exist. Do you see the difference?
    This isn't a war, WTF? There was a terrorist act, and in response, Israel, (Fucking Israel of all nations!!) has turned to wiping out everyone who lives in a general region / under a specific gov't in response.

    The word genocide isn't being thrown around lightly, here. Israeli leaders have repeatedly used language indicating the "total annihilation of Hamas" and when questioned about civilians and people who are not associated with Hamas, they answer, "There is only Hamas there." Like WTF?!? There absolutely is not "only Hamas" there. It's not even "only where Hamas is" that you're killing civilians, FFS.

    This isn't a balanced fight. It's the 5th grade bully kicking ass in the entire 2nd grade class.
    Oskar said it better than me.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  31. #9331
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    The US could stop the war tomorrow, if they ended their military support of Israel. Not saying they should, could or would, but I would say it's been clear since the 50s that the neighboring "hostile" nations can't pose an existential threat to Israel even combined.

    Well put by Oskar.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  32. #9332
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    The US could stop the war tomorrow, if they ended their military support of Israel. Not saying they should, could or would, but I would say it's been clear since the 50s that the neighboring "hostile" nations can't pose an existential threat to Israel even combined.

    Well put by Oskar.
    I think it has been firmly established that nobody in US politics will end support for Israel because of the genocide. They may however stop support if Israel stops being useful as a colonial outpost in the middle east. Israel has been very useful strategically, but it is very questionable of how much value it is if it keeps doing stuff like randomly blowing up Iranian generals in Syrian embassy's without even informing the US and completely ending any pretense that they are interested in a 2 state solution. If it turns out they shot down that helicopter, Iran is going to be big mad.

    On the other hand you have Bin Salman who is desperate to be allowed in the cool kids club. Everything the UAE do is like: hey look, we're the good middle east. Look, Dubai is pretty cool, right? Don't come too close, but from over there... shiny, huh?

    So if you have a viable diplomatic partner in the middle east, and your current diplomatic partner is doing genocide with no pretense, then maybe there will be a shift in diplomacy. Israel also seems historically unstable from the inside. The shit Haaretz writes about Likut right now is just about the harshest you will read in any international paper, and that is a paper run by other Zionists.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  33. #9333
    Seems highly unlikely Israel had a hand in the helicopter clash. Much more likely to be an internal hit. This guy was basically involved in a two horse race for the keys to the Supreme office, the other guy being the current Supreme Leader's 2nd son, who now has a clear run at the top job.

    Mossad might have assassinated generals and lots of other important people, but, to my knowledge, have never taken out a head of state. Doing so is an act of war, and if this is what had happened I feel like the rhetoric coming from Iran right now would be a great deal more hawkish.

    It's either an inside job, or perhaps the very unlikely possibility of an actual accident in thick fog.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  34. #9334
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    I saw video of zero visibility fog on the day of the crash, sot hat's probably what happened. Authoritarian countries have a bad track record of aviation safety. Always someone doing the old "Do you know who I am?! You will get us to our big thing post haste!" or something like that.

    Still only a matter of time until Israel engages in a provocation that can't be ignored. It looks like end-stage fascism over there. They're already going final-solution on Gaza. I think it's kind of funny that there's a surge of outrage now that there's another attack with lots of video footage... What did people think happened to the other 40,000 dead? You drop bombs on people, they get crushed and burned to death. I swear a majority of people have no concept of object permanence beyond their immediate vision. If they don't see it happening in front of their eyes they cannot even conceptualize it.

    I didn't even know Iran had a president tbh. Who knows what's going on over there.

    Last edited by oskar; 05-27-2024 at 06:59 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  35. #9335
    Ok, I don't have a big enough masochistic streak to watch a Biden-Trump debate, but I've heard it said that the Ds are freaking out right now over how senile sleepy Joe looked. Trump did his usual lie lie lie thing but as usual his supporters won't care.

    gl America and the World.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  36. #9336
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    I think we shouldn't be too harsh. He's a first term president doing his best. He might be off to a rough start, but he still has room to grow and it's still early in the race... or something to that effect according to Kamala Harris. Reminds me of that Norm SNL bit "Emma Plinket from Kentucky finally graduated college at the ripe age of 89. What's next for Emma?" *leans in* "Death!"

    I've heard Joy Reid and Jake Tapper basically scream at the President to step down. It would be insane for him to keep running. It was insane for him to be carried through the primary in 2019, but he's done. They are gift wrapping Trumps second term if they keep him in the race.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  37. #9337
    I'm looking forward to next year, by which time the UK will have one of the few sensible gov'ts in the civilised world. Take that, Eurorightwingloonytards!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  38. #9338
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    Damn right! Who would have thought it would be the Land of Lords and Ladies of all places, where progressivism can score a goal? Did you guys just make a case for accelerationism or was it the perfect storm?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  39. #9339
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Damn right! Who would have thought it would be the Land of Lords and Ladies of all places, where progressivism can score a goal? Did you guys just make a case for accelerationism or was it the perfect storm?
    I'd say the latter. Covid, war in Ukraine, inflation, and a completely incompetent and corrupt government all coalesced into one giant ball of contempt for the Tories. People aren't excited about Labour they're just sick of the Tories.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  40. #9340
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    This is a wrap up of some of the corruption.




    My friend in Barnoldswick sent me pictures of an old building burning down in (or near) the town. There was loose speculation that "kids" started it. I asked her if the fire department was just letting it burn, since the pictures were of a full blaze with no sign of firefighters in the pic.
    She replied there hasn't been a fire brigade in her town for quite some time.

    IDK if that's related to funding cuts for public services, but WTF either way.
    Barnoldswick isn't a big town, but like all British cities, everything's really packed in close together. Like a row of houses looks like a single building at first glance / everything's built literally touching the next building with no path between them. If a fire breaks out in one of those rows, with no fire brigade to stop it... there goes the neighborhood.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 06-28-2024 at 03:44 PM.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  41. #9341
    "Video unavailable in your country." We can't handle the truth!

    Following the 2008 crash, the Tories got into power in 2010. Their first move was austerity:to start cutting funding for everything, everywhere. Fourteen years later, and people are finally starting to figure out why there's not enough doctors, not enough nurses or careworkers, not enough teachers, not enough police, not enough firefighters, not enough trains, potholes everywhere, and raw sewage flowing through our rivers and streams (ok, that last was due to selling our WATER to private companies, then letting them do as they pleased with it, but you get the idea).
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  42. #9342
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    If Biden wants to do something really funny, he could, as an official act, have Trump assassinated.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  43. #9343
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    As I understand it, probably.

    SCOTUS just made a huge power grab, in the guise of sending power to the lower courts.
    But none of this that gets to the lower courts is going to end there. This is a new, untested precedent. It will be appealed up to SCOTUS whenever the first case that comes along tests this.
    SCOTUS will then rule whatever the hell they want, since they gave themselves the power to do so.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  44. #9344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    "Video unavailable in your country." We can't handle the truth!
    It's a recent episode of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. The episode title is "UK elections."
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  45. #9345
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    The most fucked up thing is hearing Dems try to defend not pulling support for Biden in the upcoming election.
    Biden is a limp fish. He's lost his ability to inspire and lead. It's not ageist, it's just the facts. He's losing his base while running against a convicted felon.

    The Republican base is as fired up as ever, either in direct support for Trump or in direct opposition to the doddering fool that is Biden.

    Dems are talking like they were 8 years ago. Like Trump can't win 'cause he just sucks. Trump got elected in part because no one wanted to vote for Hillary - she was not inspiring the base to draw voters out. Trump sucks *to you*, but not to his base. Don't they fucking get this?!?

    "Oh it's too late to pull Biden from the ticket. It would send the convention into disarray! Trump is such a trainwreck that even sub-par Biden is a better choice."
    They're literally pissing away not just their victory but their entire chance to show that they're opposed to the entrenched cronyism that Trump used to fire up his base 8 years ago.

    FFS.
    I don't understand how Dem leaders and voters can't see the writing on the wall. Biden is not getting anyone excited. Trump is, as ever, firing up his base.

    Momentum heading into the vote will matter a great deal, and so far, it looks like Biden is losing his and not even clawing it back.


    ***
    And where is VP Harris? What are her positions? What is her draw?
    The Dems can't even seem to make her a presence, let alone a positive.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 07-02-2024 at 12:13 PM.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  46. #9346
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    T Biden is not getting anyone excited.
    Listen here, you consarned whippersnapper! That's malarkey! Sleepy Joe will take you behind the woodhouse and beat you in a driving contest! He'll help covid and ruin welfare! Twenty-three skidoo!


    The problem isn't just that he's unfit for office now. It's that he's not going to get better over the next four years. How anyone can vote for him even if he's not Trump is beyond me. At least Trump is conscious.

    And his family deciding to tell him to keep going, wtf is with that?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  47. #9347
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    Thankfully, my vote for POTUS is a wasted thing, so it doesn't matter who I vote for.
    St. Louis will vote overwhelmingly Dem, but the rest of the state of Missouri will vote overwhelmingly Rep. And all my state's electoral college votes will go to Trump, regardless of what St Louis does.

    There's a lot else on the coming ballot for which my vote will matter, but for the Presidential election, I'm just a spectator.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  48. #9348
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    It looks like Biden just isn't stepping down on his own, which leaves Dems with no options other than maybe the 25th? Not having a primary at all is really biting them in the ass right now.
    Biden had a good term, if you forget about Israel/Gaza for a second, but he's not even mentally there enough to deliver a stump speech when prompted. Abortion was a slam dunk question. Hugely unpopular result of Trump's presidency. Within 30 seconds Biden turned it into: illegal immigrants are raping our women! Funny! I died. But that's not a simple slip-up. He's gone. Elvis has left the building. Forget about: should he run? What about: Should he be president right now?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  49. #9349
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Jesus, the SCOTUS ruling was much worse than I realized.

    The US President is now immune from any criminal prosecution for virtually anything they do while in office. Furthermore, nothing they do while in office can be used as evidence in any criminal trial over something that happened when they weren't in office.

    Technically, this isn't 100% sweeping across all circumstances, but the court basically ruled that the president can only be held accountable if they're not officially acting in the office of the President... which is like... what does that mean, how can it be proved, who gets to decide what does and doesn't count? There's no line, there.

    So fuck the whole point of creating a democracy without a king.

    Biden could now, in theory, just openly murder Trump on live TV, and face no criminal consequences. He could order anyone else to do so, and while that person is not protected, the President could pardon them, even preemptively. The President could order the murder of the whole of their political opponents and that's now immune from criminal prosecution, and again, they can pardon anyone who assists them in this coup, granting them immunity as well.

    What the actual fuck.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  50. #9350
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    What the actual fuck.
    Sounds pretty fascist.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  51. #9351
    It's hard to believe that the President would face legal immunity for literally murdering his political rivals.

    Mojo you yourself say "virtually" anything they do in office. So, what are the caveats if it's not murdering your political rivals?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  52. #9352
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's hard to believe that the President would face legal immunity for literally murdering his political rivals.

    Mojo you yourself say "virtually" anything they do in office. So, what are the caveats if it's not murdering your political rivals?
    The immunity is blanket over any action that is "acting in the office of the President." Not only can they not face criminal charges, anything they do while acting in the office of the President is not allowed as evidence in any court.

    The only thing that isn't clear is if *anything* the president does is "outside" their actions in the office. Any argument can be made to that effect.

    If the President orders the assassination of anyone (political rival is just an example), and that person follows the order, that person is accountable for their crime. However, one of the powers of the President is to pardon any crime by any criminal. So the person who gives the order is immune and can pass on immunity as they please.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  53. #9353
    Well the President can already pardon someone for killing his political rival, the only question at hand here is whether the President himself can order such a thing and face no legal consequence.

    Not that it's going to happen. USA remains a democracy. Even with blanket immunity, a President, and indeed his party, rely on votes to remain in power, or at least remain in opposition. If the President were to commit a criminal act that is hard to argue is "acting in the office" and face no legal consequences, he and his party are highly likely to still suffer massive political consequences. So it's not like the President is King. Nobody votes for a King.

    The President still has to act in a way that the American people can tolerate. Trump pushes that close to the limit, but even he wouldn't get away with murder.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  54. #9354
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    Weren't presidents already effectively immune for official acts? I guess there's still a difference between knowing you're immune up front, or having to sweat for a pardon.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  55. #9355
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    I have to say I really have to hand it to Trump. I did not think that when shutting up is the smartest thing to do, he would be up for the job, but he's doing it! He's saying nothing on Biden. He was low-key nice at the debate. Very minor jabs. He's just letting the narrative run out, praying that Biden makes it through.
    I'm sure his campaign has the ads featuring every time Biden's brain fell out live on air ready to go the second the DNC locks him in.
    Trump's MIT-brain may not be firing on all cylinders when it comes to sharks and batteries, but his TV-brain has not failed him yet!
    Last edited by oskar; 07-09-2024 at 12:56 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  56. #9356
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    Biden is treating this like a personal hobby goal. When asked if he didn't win in the election what would he think, his answer was, "I’ll feel as long as I gave it my all and I did the goodest job as I know I can do, that’s what this is about."

    FFS, no!

    Ignoring the use of the word "goodest" which was later re-transcribed as "good as" which isn't any more grammatically correct.
    This isn't about doing the best you can. This is about the future of American democracy.
    You can't tell me this is about the future of democracy, and then tell me if you don't win, you'll be OK with that.


    When asked if any other Democrats could beat Trump in the coming election, he replied, "About 50 of them."
    So if you believe that there are 50 candidates that can beat him, and your party is fracturing over supporting you, then fucking call for a live debate between the top runners of those 50. Make the DNC meaningful. Odds are, really, that Biden still wins that process, but at least it's a fucking democratic process that lives up to what he says he stands for.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  57. #9357
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I have to say I really have to hand it to Trump. I did not think that when shutting up is the smartest thing to do, he would be up for the job, but he's doing it! He's saying nothing on Biden. He was low-key nice at the debate. Very minor jabs. He's just letting the narrative run out, praying that Biden makes it through.
    I'm sure his campaign has the ads featuring every time Biden's brain fell out live on air ready to go the second the DNC locks him in.
    Trump's MIT-brain may not be firing on all cylinders when it comes to sharks and batteries, but his TV-brain has not failed him yet!
    His political acumen is top notch. He's a shit leader, but he is world-class at giving the crowds what they want.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  58. #9358
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    It was a running joke in 2019 that they were hidin' Biden, and every time he spoke it was a disaster. I do not understand how the DNC functions. In a normal year, ok, you don't want to have the appearance of discord within the party so you're not going to challenge a sitting president... but everyone knew about Biden.
    Every interview he has done since the debate was a disaster. They're trying to spin it like it's a win when he can complete a sentence. It's like that Tim and Eric's Bedtime Stories episode about the air traffic controller who keeps causing mid-air collisions, so instead of firing him, they assign him a sleep therapist. Every time Biden speaks it's the public relations equivalent of a mid-air collision and every Blue Maga moron is like "Listen Jack, we have to defeat Trump in November. Democracy is on the line." Everyone gets that! So find someone who can land a plane!
    Last edited by oskar; 07-09-2024 at 04:20 PM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  59. #9359
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    What worries me the most is that even the things that should be on auto-pilot, like listing his accomplishments, are a complete mess. He keeps saying stuff like "I'm the guy who put NATO together" I assume he's talking about Sweden... Who even knows about this? Or cares. He might actually think he literally put NATO together. "We beat medicare." He can't find the right words... how is he supposed to be President if he can't even recite a prepared sentence. It is absolute lunacy.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  60. #9360
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    The thing is, I do think Biden's done an acceptable job in the office. I think he's portrayed kindness in his demeanor and a measured approach to policy in his politics.

    But when he can't lambaste an opponent like Trump to bits in a live debate, then all his supporters have as to "why" is smoke and mirrors and "don't ask questions, just follow the leader" - well, of course people with reasons to fear a 2nd Trump presidency are going to start saying, fuck all that... that's not democracy, that's the same fascist BS we are afraid of!

    And his supporters, are like, yeah, but without all the other Trump baggage, right? So back Biden!

    No. A thousand times no.
    That's not democracy. That's the same fascist BS with slightly less baggage.
    If he's all you claim he is, then he needs to show it. He needs to defend his right to be the nominee.
    If he's the right person for the job, then why does he look like a fool?

    Trump stood next to Biden on the stage and told lie after lie and Biden didn't call him out on any of it.
    That's not OK with me.
    That's not the leader I think we need.
    We need someone with a brain and a spine who can articulate how fucked up the things that come out of Trump's mouth are.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  61. #9361
    These live debates are stupid. I'm not sure why anyone cares about a candidate's ability to debate. Is that the main job of a politician? To engage in arguments with rivals on TV for the benefit of the salivating electorate? Personally, this is the kind of politics I hate. Shit slinging politics.

    Maybe Biden is getting too old to get worked up in a debate. Maybe his meds make him too chill for it. In the hypothetical situation where that is literally the only "flaw" he has, is it a problem? Of course it's not his only flaw, but the inability or unwillingness to engage in effective live debate is not something I really consider a flaw in a politician, but that's because I don't give a toss what they say. Politics for me is not a televised live debate. That's entertainment, and not even good entertainment. Politics is policy and action.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  62. #9362
    Biden phoned in to Morning Joe the other day to show how up for the job of POTUS he is. He repeatedly flubs his lines, and then at one point you can hear him rustling papers. So he's reading a script and can't even manage that. FFS Dems just get him a pension already!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  63. #9363
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    Maybe Biden is getting too old to get worked up in a debate. Maybe his meds make him too chill for it.
    It's not that he can't get worked up, it's that he can't string a coherent series of words together. He literally makes no sense more often than he makes sense.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Politics is policy and action.
    You want someone who's mind is functioning to be doing that too.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  64. #9364
    Seriously if the Dems actually let Biden run for President I will have to give up on them. That will mean both political parties will have lost their minds, and the USA will officially be, in my view, a failed state.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  65. #9365
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I have to say I really have to hand it to Trump. I did not think that when shutting up is the smartest thing to do, he would be up for the job
    I'm equally surprised that Trump is actually showing some self-control. He's basically understood that his best campaign worker right now is Biden, so he's letting him talk.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  66. #9366
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    These live debates are stupid. I'm not sure why anyone cares about a candidate's ability to debate. Is that the main job of a politician? To engage in arguments with rivals on TV for the benefit of the salivating electorate? Personally, this is the kind of politics I hate. Shit slinging politics.
    It's meant to be an opportunity for the candidates explain their different platforms and policies and make their case, issue by issue as to why they're the better candidate.
    It's meant to be a chance for the voters to see what they are like when under some minimal pressure and scrutiny by the other candidate to keep them honest.
    It's meant to be an opportunity for them to differentiate themselves as leaders.

    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Maybe Biden is getting too old to get worked up in a debate. Maybe his meds make him too chill for it. In the hypothetical situation where that is literally the only "flaw" he has, is it a problem? Of course it's not his only flaw, but the inability or unwillingness to engage in effective live debate is not something I really consider a flaw in a politician, but that's because I don't give a toss what they say. Politics for me is not a televised live debate. That's entertainment, and not even good entertainment. Politics is policy and action.
    The fact that he's not meeting my expectations is my concern.
    The reason he's not meeting my expectations is his business, not mine.

    I'm not concerned about Biden's ability to debate.

    I'm concerned that in the debate, what I saw was an inability to express coherent thoughts or sentences. I'm concerned that literally anyone with a brain who is invested in the US political scene should be able to wipe the floor against a man convicted of 34 felony charges who can't seem to open his mouth without repeating lies he's told before.

    That's a fucking LOW bar, man.

    I want to know there is someone in this who can win against a man who has promised to be a dictator, "but only on day 1" when he's elected.
    I want to know there is someone in this who can win against a man with 34 felony charges and a new extra immunity to commit all the crimes he can imagine for the next 4 years.
    I want to know there is someone in this who can win against a man who has argued it should be legal for the President to order military assets to kill his political rivals.

    If Biden can prove that's him, like his supporters say it's him, then let him prove it. Let him stand on the stage at the DNC and make his case, then let another dozen people make theirs. Next day, take the top 2 - 4 from there and do it again. Final day, hold a debate between them and then have the vote for the nominee.

    If it's still Biden, then awesome. I should've listened to you all along. If not, well. Now we all agree we have a better chance to win than before, right? So it's win win for everyone.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.

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