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*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

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  1. #3451
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    It goes sell your gold when the price is high, then turn around and wait for the price to drop and re-buy your gold for less.
    Same gold, but now with more money on the side.

    It's not like the price of gold is going to stay down for long.

    The problem with what he did was he sold the gold when the market was already at the bottom of a dip. If he'd hung on to it longer it would have been worth more.

    And, whatever his "little scheme" to enrich his friends was supposed to be, it would only have worked if he hadn't announced the plan to sell the gold ahead of doing it. As it was, anyone could have used the information not just his mates.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48177767



    Then again if we want to talk about wasting money, I don't think the Tories should be pointing any fingers right about now.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e-figures-show


    £37bn on a test and trace system that didn't work wasn't exactly a good invesment either.

    https://committees.parliament.uk/com...ther-lockdown/
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  2. #3452
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean they won't, but it would be absolutely hilarious.

    Probably more likely is that the Tories win in 5 years with Farage as leader. That will send people nuts.
    The Tories making Farage their leader would be the end of them. The guy lost an election to a dolphin ffs. The country simply isn't that full of the right-wing nutters who like Farage's schtick. The vast majority of people are either center-left or center-right.

    I mean wherever they go from Sunak it's not going to be pretty, they've virtually got no-one sensible left. Sunak was sort of sensible albeit the world's worst politician.

    The Tories won't get back in power until they take a sharp turn back towards the center. It's Labour for the next 10 years. Better get used to it. Oh, and we'll probably be back in the EU by the end of those 10 years so you can look forward to that too.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  3. #3453
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    The Tories making Farage their leader would be the end of them.
    I think you grossly underestimate the support the guy has from traditional conservative voters.

    The vast majority of people are either center-left or center-right.
    So the vast majority of people do not relate to the current government then? I don't even know what you'd call this current lot but it's not the politics of centrists. Farage appeals a lot more to those people, he's more traditional centre-right than Sunak. He's basically a Thatcherite.

    The idea that anyone who wishes to reduce immigration is far right is utter nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #3454
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I'm not an expert, but I think usually people make money when prices go up, not when they drop.

    That said, it would have been wiser for him to sell it off in pieces rather than as one big dump.
    Sorry I might not have been clear.

    Brown said "we're going to sell all our gold".

    The markets respond with a very predictable mini crash, due to the announcement that supply is about to increase.

    Brown sells the gold at a lower value than he would have been able to if he kept his mouth shut.

    This is either gross incompetence, or deliberate corruption.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #3455
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    As it was, anyone could have used the information not just his mates.
    Sure, but those who were closest to him knew when the announcement would be made, and knew how much would be sold, so were better placed to accurately calculate the impact on the markets... that is, they know when the bottom is in.

    I mean, maybe Brown is just that fucking stupid that he didn't realise announcing that the gold supply was about to increase would have an effect on the markets, but personally I don't think he is that stupid, given his education, qualifications, experience and position.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #3456
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think you grossly underestimate the support the guy has from traditional conservative voters.
    I think you grossly overesimate the support the guy has from people who'd rather vote for a dolphin.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So the vast majority of people do not relate to the current government then?
    Have you seen the polls in say, the last three years?

    The Tory party people voted for in 2019 was much more centrist than this lot. Bodger kicked most of the prominent centrists out for not supporting Brexit, the rest saw where the party was heading and left on their own. They're basically an EDL tribute act now, but with a brown leader, who has anti-charisma. They won't even let him out in public half the time -during an election campaign - cause they're afraid he'll have another major fuck-up.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Farage appeals a lot more to those people, he's more traditional centre-right than Sunak. He's basically a Thatcherite.
    He's leading the Reform Party. If he goes and leads the Tories, they'll be no different politically than they are now. He might pull in some of the Reform voters, but it won't be enough to come anywhere close to winning a GE.
    .



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The idea that anyone who wishes to reduce immigration is far right is utter nonsense.
    Who said that? Nice reductio ad bananum.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  7. #3457
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    I think you grossly overesimate the support the guy has from people who'd rather vote for a dolphin.
    I appreciate that it's an excellent point of mockery, but I'd just like to point out that a dolphin is probably more appealing than any active politician you can name me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #3458
    He's leading the Reform Party. If he goes and leads the Tories, they'll be no different politically than they are now.
    I don't think this is true at all. I mean, I'm no political scientist, but from what I've been hearing from lifelong Tory voters, they're likely to vote Reform because they are actual conservatives. Before Farage announced he was leading Reform, these same people were likely to not vote at all, and these are people that always vote. The Tories have lost their core support and that's something Farage can get back. Don't write him off. As Reform leader, he hasn't got a chance of leading the country, but as Conservatives leader, I think he has. The dolphin voters are Labour voters.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #3459
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't think this is true at all. I mean, I'm no political scientist, but from what I've been hearing from lifelong Tory voters, they're likely to vote Reform because they are actual conservatives. Before Farage announced he was leading Reform, these same people were likely to not vote at all, and these are people that always vote. The Tories have lost their core support and that's something Farage can get back. Don't write him off. As Reform leader, he hasn't got a chance of leading the country, but as Conservatives leader, I think he has. The dolphin voters are Labour voters.
    There might not be a Tory party after this election the way Fishi is going.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  10. #3460
    Even sheep don't want to be around Fishi.


    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  11. #3461
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  12. #3462
    This has really aged well....


    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  13. #3463
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  14. #3464
    oskar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Holy crap. Jul 4th, huh? Who picked that date, lmao.
    1776 will commence again! Go Labour!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  15. #3465
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Holy crap. Jul 4th, huh? Who picked that date, lmao.
    1776 will commence again! Go Labour!

    Those numbers might be an underestimate of the ass whooping Labour is going to put on the Tories.

    This betting scandal thing is really starting to take off. Cliffs:

    1. A day or two before the election date is announced, a bunch of Tory party members place bets on the date.
    2. The date is announced as July 4.
    3. Surprise! A bunch of Tories make some extra cash.
    4. Gambling Commission reports a lot of "suspicious" activity on gambling sites just before election was announced.
    5. FT posts an article showing the steep rise in betting just before date announced.
    6. So far, a half dozen party members are under investigation. There will likely be more as the days unfold.

    I mean, how fucking dumb can you be to think you can get away with that?

    The only saving grace for the Tories now is that it's mathematically impossible to fall below 0% votes.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  16. #3466
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I mean, how fucking dumb can you be to think you can get away with that?
    Wrong question.
    The question is, "How long has this been going on before it broke to obvious levels and who was in on it those times?"
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  17. #3467
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Wrong question.
    The question is, "How long has this been going on before it broke to obvious levels and who was in on it those times?"
    Good question.

    What happened this time was that the Gambling Commission said "that's funny, there's a whole bunch of bets going in at once over when the election is going to be, and they all turned out to be winners. Maybe we should look into who those people were." Then lo and behold they're all Tory party members close to Fishi.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  18. #3468
    What do people think about tactical voting tomorrow?

    My number one goal is for the Tories to get smashed.

    My constituency is typically a safe Tory seat. Polls have the Lib Dems as being very close to the Tories.

    I would prefer to vote Labour, but Lib Dem wouldn't be a disaster.

    The strongest candidate in my area is the Tory. Both Labour and Lib Dem are very underwhelming.

    So I think I have to go Lib dem, despite the Lib Dems being neither the party I want nationally, nor the best candidate locally. That doesn't feel right, but seems necessary given my number one goal. In the same way I would be voting Tory if I lived in Clacton.
  19. #3469
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post

    So I think I have to go Lib dem, despite the Lib Dems being neither the party I want nationally, nor the best candidate locally. That doesn't feel right, but seems necessary given my number one goal. In the same way I would be voting Tory if I lived in Clacton.

    I'm in the same situation. Labour is on about 9% where I live, it's neck-and-neck between the Cons and LDs. I'm voting for the LibDems because I want to get the Tories out.

    Added bonus is it's Jeremy Hunt's seat. Seeing his google eyes popping out if/when he loses would be a real treat.





    So yeah, tactical voting ftw. I'd probably draw the line at voting Reform, though if I lived in a constituency where it came down to Reform vs. Cons I imagine I'd be too busy re-thinking my life choices to go out and vote.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  20. #3470
    And weirdly, for such a high-profile Tory in a contested seat, I've gotten nothing through my door to advertise for Hunt. Lots for the LD candidate though, and they even knocked on my door a couple of times. Strange.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  21. #3471
    Tories bringing out Bodger Johnson last night is just another sign of how out of touch they are with the voters, how desperate.

    Imagine thinking "Hmm, we're way behind in the polls. I know, let's get the guy who started off the whole everyone hating us thing with Partygate to come back and remind everyone why we suck."

    Who's next, Liz Truss?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  22. #3472
    Yeah, I think I have to be tactical about this.

    Mrs Bean's family live in the constituency Farage is contesting. They live in the nice part and are sensible people. Her Dad has voted Tory his whole life and is finally done with them, but he may need to vote for them tomorrow given the alternative.
  23. #3473
    Polls just closed. The numbers from the exit polls:

    Lab: 410
    Con: 131
    LibDem: 61
    Reform: 13
    SNP: 10
    Green: 2
    Indep: 23


    So the Tories have likely lost more than half of their seats, and Labour gained about 150.


    Last edited by Poopadoop; 07-04-2024 at 05:08 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  24. #3474
    And Brains Truss has lost her seat. That. Is. A. Disgrace. It's almost as if crashing the economy and spouting paranoid fantasies about the Deep State isn't a vote winner. Bye bye Liz, don't come back!

    Other notable losers:

    Grant "get rich quick" Shapps.
    Jacob "right honourable member from the 1800s" Rees Mogg.
    Penny "fight fight fight!" Mourdant.

    And a few other less notables.

    Fishi managed to keep his seat (well done Fishi!), as did Jeremy "dangerous name" Hunt.

    In a blow to racists everywhere, Reform only won 4 seats. Sadly, the dolphin didn't run in Clacton so now Farage has finally won a seat after 8 tries.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  25. #3475
    Today is the first time in years that I've woken up with hope about the future of the UK. I'm so pleased the Tories got trounced.
  26. #3476
    I can't remember the last time I looked forward to something so much as seeing the Tories getting their asses kicked at the GE.

    That first exit poll was a massive dopamine hit. I had a pretty good idea it was coming but there's always that little nagging doubt.

    Labour's got a huge job ahead of them but they seem like they're going to take it seriously at least.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  27. #3477
    Yeah, that first exit poll was great to see.

    Then I realised it was only a sample of 20k people across less than a few hundred polling stations.

    Then I remembered I went to bed on the night of the Brexit vote and remain seemed to be a dead cert.

    It was a relief when I woke up at 3am and saw it was a done deal.

    It's just nice to have somebody sensible in charge again with the right agenda. Theresa May was probably the only one out of the Tories I felt the same about. That was an horrendous time for her to pick up the job.
  28. #3478
    Reform got 4 seats with more votes than the Lib Dems, who got 72 seats. I wouldn't be fistpumping that if I thought they were a bunch of racists.

    One of two things happens with Reform. Either the Conservatives sort their shit out, move back to the centre right, and win back the vote they lost to Reform, which renders Reform redundant, much like UKIP after Brexit. Or, and this is a very real possibility, the Conservatives are basically a dying party and their vote could move en masse to Reform at the next election.

    Given Reform got enough votes to win 70+ seats if only their supporters didn't happen to be spread more evenly around the country rather than concentrated in particular regions, I think they have to be taken seriously.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 07-07-2024 at 10:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #3479
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Reform got 4 seats with more votes than the Lib Dems, who got 72 seats. I wouldn't be fistpumping that if I thought they were a bunch of racists.
    They're not ALL racists, but enough of them are that it's a big problem with their party.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    One of two things happens with Reform. Either the Conservatives sort their shit out, move back to the centre right, and win back the vote they lost to Reform, which renders Reform redundant, much like UKIP after Brexit. Or, and this is a very real possibility, the Conservatives are basically a dying party and their vote could move en masse to Reform at the next election.
    The Tories will never die in this country, despite themselves. They have two options: stay as they are now, basically trying to appeal to the superrich and the racists, while pretending to care about working class people. In that case they'll continue to split the right wing vote with Reform. Or, they go back to the center in which case they will have a chance of governing again someday.

    The two parties aren't going to merge into some super right wing bloc, because they're just too different. Can you see the Times writing Op Eds in favour of a Toreform party? No way. They'd throw their support behind the LibDems before they did that.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Given Reform got enough votes to win 70+ seats if only their supporters didn't happen to be spread more evenly around the country rather than concentrated in particular regions, I think they have to be taken seriously.
    Yes but those people aren't diehard supporters, they're disaffected Tory voters who don't like the current iteration of incompetence and chaos in the Tory party, but who won't vote Labour because they think they're a bunch of commies. It's basically a protest vote against the Tories, just like votes for Lid Dems are.

    Neither Reform nor Toreform will ever get enough votes to form a gov't. The population is just too centrist, too conservative, and too reverent towards the establishment to start voting en masse for extremists. Maybe in 100 years, but not in this century.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  30. #3480
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    They're not ALL racists, but enough of them are that it's a big problem with their party.
    You could say the same about Labour and antisemitism. In the case of Labour, they're not an antisemitic party, rather left-wing social democracy is the most accessible political vehicle for antisemites. Likewise, right-wing nationalism is an accessible political vehicle for racists.

    The two parties aren't going to merge into some super right wing bloc, because they're just too different.
    They're different, yes. Reform are traditional conservatives, the Conservatives are not.

    The best thing that could happen to the Tories in terms of maximising their chances of success in five years is to get Farage in as their leader. Not merge the two parties. Get Farage in and let Reform go the way of UKIP.

    Yes but those people aren't diehard supporters, they're disaffected Tory voters...
    Yes, and if enough of them move towards Reform, then we have a bigger party than the Lib Dems, and potentially a party capable of winning an election. I don't think it will happen, because I think the Conservatives will shift. They might not get Farage as leader, but they'll try to win back their vote by appealing to those who abandoned them. But if they stubbornly refuse, it could be game over for them. Nothing lasts forever.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #3481
    Starmer probably has got control of antisemitism in his party. Farage needs to do the same with Reform when it comes to ultranationalism. But I think he has the will and the authority to do it. Farage himself is, as best I'm aware, not a racist. I have never seen footage of him saying something unambiguously racist. If such footage existed it would go viral.

    If Farage can mould the Reform Party in his image, they have to be taken seriously. People on the centre right like him. He's not as extreme as leftists wish he was, and he has more charisma than any other politician I can think of, excluding the Monster Raving Loony Party of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  32. #3482
    Some classic British election comedy...

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #3483
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Farage needs to do the same with Reform when it comes to ultranationalism. But I think he has the will and the authority to do it.
    Lol, the guy campaigning for him in Clacton called Sunak a Paki. That hardly seems like someone who has ultranationalism under control.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Farage himself is, as best I'm aware, not a racist.
    If you lead a party full of racists, you're pretty much a racist whether you come out and admit or not. Either that, or he's just a political opportunist. Either way he's associated himself with racists and that's why he'll never be PM.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If Farage can mould the Reform Party in his image, they have to be taken seriously.
    If you mean not extremist, then good luck with that. The party attracts extremists, that's their whole reason for existing. Farage is not going to change them into a Tory party.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    People on the centre right like him. He's not as extreme as leftists wish he was, and he has more charisma than any other politician I can think of, excluding the Monster Raving Loony Party of course.
    Right, people should vote for him because he's not as openly extremist as the extremist party he leads. Or, because he's a charmer. Remember the last time someone with a lot of charisma was PM? How did that end?

    There is no way someone like Farage will ever be PM. You can dream all you want, it's not happening.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  34. #3484
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Lol, the guy campaigning for him in Clacton called Sunak a Paki. That hardly seems like someone who has ultranationalism under control.
    Presumably this campaigner no longer works for Reform?

    You can't know someone is racist until they say or do something racist. All Farage can do is act swiftly and decisively when someone in his party makes it obvious.

    If you lead a party full of racists...
    How many members of Reform are undeniably racist? Because I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's a small number, with most of the people you consider to be "racist" having done or said nothing to actually deserve that charge.

    To give you some idea where my line is drawn... calling Sunak a Paki... racist... opposing immigration... not racist.

    Remember the last time someone with a lot of charisma was PM?
    No. I don't recall being alive when Churchill was PM.

    Oh you're referring to Boris.

    I'm not sure "charisma" is the right word. "Character" is probably better.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  35. #3485
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Presumably this campaigner no longer works for Reform?
    He never did according to Farage. He was a Channel 4 plant. lol good one Nige, straight out of the Trump playbook that was.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You can't know someone is racist until they say or do something racist.
    True, but when racists keep turning up in your party, you might start to wonder what the appeal of that party is.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    All Farage can do is act swiftly and decisively when someone in his party makes it obvious.
    By calling it a stitch-up. Yeah.





    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    To give you some idea where my line is drawn... calling Sunak a Paki... racist... opposing immigration... not racist.
    I agree. The problem is the degree of overlap between being racist and opposing immigration. There's a pretty obvious relationship between someone not liking brown people and someone not wanting brown people to immigrate to their country.

    Another way to frame the question is: How many racists welcome immigration of the people they're racist against? I reckon that number is close to zero.

    You don't have to be racist to oppose immigration, but it helps.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  36. #3486
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Expecting racists to be so blind to the consequences of explicitly showing racism in public seems a ridiculous move.
    It's not the 1970's, anymore. Public acceptance of people who are openly racist is all but gone.
    That doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, anymore. It just means being open about it is suppressed.

    It's no longer culturally accepted to be openly racist in public, true.
    Humans gonna human, though.

    Opposing immigration is not necessarily racism. Racism can be a part of it or not. Controlling your nations borders isn't really a partisan issue. No one's suggesting fully open borders or that the country doesn't have a responsibility to know who's coming and going, or that the country should be without any limits on immigration whatsoever.

    I don't doubt that plenty of people calling for border controls are motivated by racism, but is it conscious, open, out loud racism? Almost certainly not. People don't see themselves as the problem. That doesn't mean they aren't.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  37. #3487
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    He never did according to Farage. He was a Channel 4 plant.
    I mean, this isn't out of the question. We know how filthy the media are. They hack phones of missing children. If you're asking me whose integrity I trust more, Farage or Channel 4, that's not a difficult question to answer.

    You don't have to be racist to oppose immigration, but it helps.
    Of course. You don't have to be antisemitic to support Palestinian rights, but it helps. You gonna tell me there's no overlap there? Extremism exists in all political movements. If you're going to allow the racists to tell you what Reform is all about, then you should let the antisemites tell you what Palestinian rights are all about.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #3488
    Quote Originally Posted by mojo
    ...but is it conscious, open, out loud racism? Almost certainly not.
    If racism is subconscious, then is it even fair to judge people for it?

    When we talk about people who still cling on to Nazi ideology, or any other political and social movement that has clear hatred for people based on their ethnicity or colour, this is clearly conscious racism. People might not be open about it, but you can't lie to yourself, can you? You can't sanely think both "maybe Hitler was right" and "I'm not antisemitic".

    I understand people are not so willing to expose their racist opinions in the modern age. That's great. If people are forced to completely supress their racism, then are they even racist any more? People can think whatever the fuck they like, it's what you say and do that matters.

    The vast majority of true racists, they can't hide it forever. There will be red flags, and strong opposition to immigration would be one of them, but it's ok to wait for someone to show their true colours before we judge them. Judging someone because they share some traits with racists, but haven't actually proven themself to be racist, is that how we want our society to function?

    Getting rid of racism means forcing people to understand that we as a people are not going to allow racism to play a role in our society.
    It's not forcing people to stop thinking thoughts we disagree with. Unfortunately we can't control what people think, and even if we could, is that any better than hating people for no good reason? Is that a better society?

    People who are racist now might not be in a year or two. And people who aren't racist now might be in the future. It's a fluid, not a solid.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #3489
    Ezposed.





    I'm sure it's all different now that they changed their name to Reform though.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  40. #3490
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If racism is subconscious, then is it even fair to judge people for it?

    When we talk about people who still cling on to Nazi ideology, or any other political and social movement that has clear hatred for people based on their ethnicity or colour, this is clearly conscious racism. People might not be open about it, but you can't lie to yourself, can you? You can't sanely think both "maybe Hitler was right" and "I'm not antisemitic".

    I understand people are not so willing to expose their racist opinions in the modern age. That's great. If people are forced to completely supress their racism, then are they even racist any more? People can think whatever the fuck they like, it's what you say and do that matters.

    The vast majority of true racists, they can't hide it forever. There will be red flags, and strong opposition to immigration would be one of them, but it's ok to wait for someone to show their true colours before we judge them. Judging someone because they share some traits with racists, but haven't actually proven themself to be racist, is that how we want our society to function?

    Getting rid of racism means forcing people to understand that we as a people are not going to allow racism to play a role in our society.
    It's not forcing people to stop thinking thoughts we disagree with. Unfortunately we can't control what people think, and even if we could, is that any better than hating people for no good reason? Is that a better society?

    People who are racist now might not be in a year or two. And people who aren't racist now might be in the future. It's a fluid, not a solid.
    Here here!

    > If racism is subconscious, then is it even fair to judge people for it?
    I mean... judge people on whatever you choose. If you chose race, that's racism.

    If someone is acting in a racist way, it's fair to judge them as acting racist. Racism in the UK is not at all the same as racism in the US, I'd wager. Hard to tell as a white guy in both places, but the UK seems much better about it than the US, what with our history of slavery that the US gov't allowed to continue until the 1940's in at least 1 documented instance. Add on the conspiracy of lawmakers to criminalize anything they saw as "black culture." Add on the conspiracy of banks to keep imposing redlining practices well into the mid 1990's. Add on more and more and more... many documentaries more. The insidious morphing of old, obvious racism into new, hidden racism isn't ancient history. It's not like, "We had the civil war and then everything was fine." It's not, "People in my generation aren't responsible." here.

    It's the million tiny things I get to take for granted as "normal" or "how it should be" as a white cys male that people who don't fit those 3 words do not get to take for granted. Without my awareness of those advantages, I denied white privilege still existed. I was subconsciously racist. It was judgement worthy. Someone took the time to show me the subtlety of it, and then pointed me at a bunch of documentaries and histories of *my own country* that I'd never been shown.

    Now I'm much more aware of all this. Am I still subconsciously racist? Almost certainly. But I don't want to be. And I am 100% willing to educate myself if I'm simply informed what I need to look for.


    > You can't sanely think both "maybe Hitler was right" and "I'm not antisemitic".
    C'mon, ong. You've met people, right?
    Famously, the fucking head of the KKK constantly proclaimed he wasn't racist.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 07-08-2024 at 07:36 PM.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  41. #3491
    Starmer's already done more for the country in one week than the Tories did in 14 years.

    He's going after the water companies.

    He's going after the energy companies.

    He's telling the nimbys ("not in my backyard" -i.e., don't build new houses near where I live) to fuck off, they're going to build more houses whether they like it or not.


    Meanwhile, Liz Truss came out and blamed Fishi for the Tories getting their asses kicked at the election, because he criticised her batshit economic plans. You really have to admire the delusional self-confidence of that woman.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  42. #3492
    Oh, and he also flushed the plan to send refugees to Rwanda straight down the toilet where it belongs. Forgot about that because it was practically the first thing he did once he got the keys to no. 10.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.

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