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*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

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  1. #1801
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Their anti-LGBT laws are religion based. Funny how it's a problem when it's Poland but if we cry about anti-LGBT laws in an Islamic country it's racism.
    Because there are no Islamic EU members to scold at. Do you think an Islamic country would be allowed to join the EU?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  2. #1802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Former PM of Finland saying EU should be ready to send emergency supplies to Britain.

    Hope you've got your lorry driver license, coco.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...er-pm-finland/
    I do actually, have needed it exactly 0 times my whole life. I can send a bog roll if things get really dire.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  3. #1803
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Because there are no Islamic EU members to scold at. Do you think an Islamic country would be allowed to join the EU?
    According to the Leave campaigners in 2016, Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU any minute, followed immediately by an influx of a million or so Turkish immigrants to the UK alone, most of which would presumably have been terrorists.

    But I'm sure no-one was ever swayed by that ridiculous argument to vote to impose economic sanctions on themselves. That would have been silly.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  4. #1804
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    I do actually, have needed it exactly 0 times my whole life. I can send a bog roll if things get really dire.
    Make sure you fuel up before you leave Calais.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  5. #1805
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    According to the Leave campaigners in 2016, Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU any minute, followed immediately by an influx of a million or so Turkish immigrants to the UK alone, most of which would presumably have been terrorists.

    But I'm sure no-one was ever swayed by that ridiculous argument to vote to impose economic sanctions on themselves. That would have been silly.
    Well tbf I never followed their join process too closely, but seems like they applied in 2005, and "out of the 35 Chapters necessary to complete the accession process only 16 had been opened and one had been closed by May 2016." After that the negotiations stalled completely. So doesn't seem like they were anywhere near getting a membership at any point, but I guess it would have been rude to just immediately tell them to piss off.

    And also tbf, I've heard this argument about the left treating Islam somehow differently for numerous times. I don't personally think at all they should be treated differently, if anything they're some of the worst offenders when it comes to religious bs. I also don't know any Islam apologists, nor have even seen anyone say or write anything to make it seem like they were, so I'm not quite sure where this whole debate is happening, outside conservative forums.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  6. #1806
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Because there are no Islamic EU members to scold at. Do you think an Islamic country would be allowed to join the EU?
    Yes. Turkey, Albania, and Kosovo all want to join.

    I see poop has rather maturely replied to this already, yadder yadder a million migrants please talk about something else other than what we were talking about, which is LGBT+ rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #1807
    Not as mature as your remark that the left tolerates religious intolerance from Muslims but not from Christians. I think in reality, it's the far right that has the most to answer for as far as putting up with if not encouraging Christian wackyness goes.

    I don't know anyone on the left or right who are keen on beheadings or honour killing. But those on the left tend to think these problems aren't as widespread as those on the right do, so the former is more open to muslim immigration as a whole.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  8. #1808
    And yeah, it was a real thing they used to get people worked up into voting Leave.

    https://www.france24.com/en/20190226...e-leave-advert
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  9. #1809
    The left have a tendency to scream "racism" is someone dares to say "I don't want Islamic immigration because they are homophobic and treat women like slaves". Even though Islams ins't a race.

    Who's talking about beheadings and honour killings? Again, we're talking about LGBT+. Or we could talk about FGM instead. And circumcision while we're at it so we're not just picking on Muslims. Widespread, not restricted to small pockets of batshit fundamentalists.

    Christianism in the UK has at least moved on from the 14th century. You might still get a Christian cakemaker refuse to make a gay cake, but British law is not discriminatory based on Christian values.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #1810
    Yes I said Christianism not Christianity. Fuck me.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #1811
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The left have a tendency to scream "racism" is someone dares to say "I don't want Islamic immigration because they are homophobic and treat women like slaves". Even though Islams ins't a race.
    You're twisting things a bit there. Some people on the left assume Islamaphobia has something to do with race and /or xenophobia because a) a lot of muslims are brown; and b) a lot of islamaphobes are also racists, so its' hard to disentangle their objection to Islam from their more general objection to anyone who isn't the same colour as they are.

    I don't think anyone on the left would disagree with the argument the way you state it there - referring to homophobic-ism and poor treatment of women. That's usually not quite how the argument is stated though, and I suspect you know that. More often it's about "foreigners" and "coming to live off our benefit systems, staying in four star hotels, etc.."

    The thing with the refugees in dinghies coming over is a good case in point. Their religious beliefs don't normally get raised as a reason to try to drown them. It's a more general thing using the arguments I mentioned above. And when the same people making those arguments also tend to be the same ones who don't want black people or Indians moving into their neighborhoods, it's easy to lump that all into the single category of racism. But maybe you're right, maybe the refugees should be drowned because some of them are Muslims.





    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Who's talking about beheadings and honour killings? Again, we're talking about LGBT+.
    And again, you'll have a hard time finding me an example of someone on the right saying "goddamn Muslims and their treatment of LGBT+ folks," followed by someone on the left saying "no, we like the fact they treat LGBT+ folks badly. You're just a racist." I mean lol, when has that ever happened? That's quite the imagination you have there.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Christianism in the UK has at least moved on from the 14th century. You might still get a Christian cakemaker refuse to make a gay cake, but British law is not discriminatory based on Christian values.
    It's not discriminatory based on Muslim values either. Muslims who come here still have to follow our laws; they don't get a free pass because they're not Christian. If they mistreat LGBT+ folk, they get punished the same as everyone else.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  12. #1812
    More often it's about "foreigners" and "coming to live off our benefit systems, staying in four star hotels, etc.."
    The fact we treat migrants better than the homeless is indeed a factor, sure. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I don't resent someone coming here for economic reasons. It's not their fault they want a better life and we're willing to give it to them. But I can totally understand why people might want a different policy.

    The thing with the refugees in dinghies coming over is a good case in point.
    People fleeing France for economic reasons. And people being exploited by people traffickers. I think most people want a legal, controlled method of immigration processing, rather than boats coming ashore with undocumented people while supporting organised crime networks.

    But maybe you're right, maybe the refugees should be drowned...
    Your language here is insincere. Nobody wants them to drown. People want them to not make a stupidly dangerous crossing. And please don't forget they are fleeing a Western country that is not at war. There is no reason to risk the crossing except for economic reasons. I am in favour of prioritising those who attempt to enter the UK legally and safely, these are the kind of economic migrants we should be prioritising. Those who do come ashore should be taken back to France. Not left to drown, taken back to France. Huge difference. Nobody wants them to drown.

    If they mistreat LGBT+ folk, they get punished the same as everyone else.
    Supposedly. This might be true in the case of, say, going to a gay bar and beating someone up, but it's not so true when it comes to family members. There is a charity called Imaan who specifically deal with Muslims in the UK who have been isolated from family, friends, work or their religion due to their sexuality. Their existence is evidence there's a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #1813
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The fact we treat migrants better than the homeless is indeed a factor, sure.
    Is it illegal to help drowning homeless people now? I didn't know...



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I don't resent someone coming here for economic reasons. It's not their fault they want a better life and we're willing to give it to them. But I can totally understand why people might want a different policy.

    Ooh, I thought we'd gotten past this. Economic reasons. Though I guess you're likely to have more income if you can make it to some country where you're not being hunted for sport.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    People fleeing France for economic reasons. And people being exploited by people traffickers.
    Like anyone thinks they'd be better off economically in the UK than Europe right now lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And people being exploited by people traffickers.
    That's the only two categories of refugees you recognize huh?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Your language here is insincere. Nobody wants them to drown.
    One word: Cruela Patel.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    People want them to not make a stupidly dangerous crossing. And please don't forget they are fleeing a Western country that is not at war. There is no reason to risk the crossing except for economic reasons.
    There's plenty of reasons as we've already explained to you. Being able to speak English and not French. Having family here. Those are the two most likely.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I am in favour of prioritising those who attempt to enter the UK legally and safely, these are the kind of economic migrants we should be prioritising. Those who do come ashore should be taken back to France. Not left to drown, taken back to France. Huge difference. Nobody wants them to drown.
    Cruela Patel does.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    There is a charity called Imaan who specifically deal with Muslims in the UK who have been isolated from family, friends, work or their religion due to their sexuality. Their existence is evidence there's a problem.
    And yet anyone who thinks not wanting muslims to immigrate here because you're a racist must themselves be a homophobe. Or something like that.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  14. #1814
    Like anyone thinks they'd be better off economically in the UK than Europe right now lol.
    It's funny you should say this. Economic migrants fleeing Europe at all costs to come to the UK. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous.

    That's the only two categories of refugees you recognize huh?
    Of course not. But we have people arriving who are specifically choosing the UK, they are not simply fleeing their own country. Don't you find this odd?

    One word: Cruela Patel.
    That's two words. And please quote or link where she wants migrants to drown. That would be quite something coming from a woman born to migrant parents.

    Being able to speak English and not French. Having family here. Those are the two most likely.
    We have discussed this, and there are people arriving who do not speak English, so the language one isn't cutting it. Nobody in the right mind is willing to literally risk their life just so they don't have to learn a new language, especially if they already speak English which is still fairly well understood in Europe. And if they have family, then they are well placed to enter legally.

    I know this might be hard for you to believe, but the reason they want to come here is because the UK is kinder to migrants than anywhere in Europe. Yes, this apparently racist country that everyone in the world hates because we had an empire. This is where migrants want to come, because they can stay in hotels, get benefits, and have free healthcare. That's worth risking your life for.

    Cruela Patel does.
    If she has actually said that then I have no idea how she is still in a job. I can only imagine that her words are being taken grossly out of context by hysterical leftists. Prove me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  15. #1815
    re: Cruela

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1765077.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...-salvini-italy

    So let's see here. She's a) behind the idea of using a wave machine to push them back out to sea (where presumably they could drown); and b) passed a law making it illegal to rescue them if they were drowning.

    Either she really wants them to drown or she prefers that to having them land in the UK. You pick.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  16. #1816
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If she has actually said that then I have no idea how she is still in a job.
    Apparently you have no idea who is in charge of the country right now. Look to the left for a clue. He doesn't sack anybody.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  17. #1817
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is where migrants want to come, because they can stay in hotels, get benefits, and have free healthcare.
    lol please stop quoting the Daily Mail as if it were factual reporting.

    How many refugees have we taken here relative to other countries in Europe? I'll give you a hint: it's lower per capita than pretty much any other country.

    https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/wp...e-May-2020.pdf
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  18. #1818
    Goddamn Eurolibtards and their freedom-hating public health measures!

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBWJfb4W...jpg&name=small


    Good thing we have the fastest vaccine rollout now that we left the EU. #MEGA

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...pe-by-country/


    Oh, shit, we're fucked. Better go on another holiday before things get really bad (again).
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  19. #1819
    She's a) behind the idea of using a wave machine to push them back out to sea (where presumably they could drown)
    Are you serious? You can't be being serious. Did you watch the video on that page? Did you hear what was actually said? Remember when I said hysterical leftists? That woman is what I mean. She's asking him to "rule out" wave machines when he said "we don't currently have plans" and that's being presented as "refused to rule it out". This is gutter journalism at its absolute finest and you're linking it here to support your argument that the daughter of migrants wants migrants to drown? Just because she's a nasty Tory who doesn't subscribe to the same leftists bullshit you do? This wave thing is utter nonsense, how can you take that seriously?

    I didn't read the Guardian article, it's 2am and I don't fancy an essay that starts with a 2017 anecdote.

    Either she really wants them to drown or she prefers that to having them land in the UK. You pick.
    She's the Home Secretary. Part of her job is to secure borders. She doesn't want migrants to drown any more than a PM wants civilians to die when bombs get dropped.

    I find it hard to believe there's an actual law that make it illegal to rescue people at sea. Every boat that is on the water within range has a legal duty to attend and rescue. Like I say, it's 2am so I'm not digging now, but I need to see what this apparent law actually says, because I'm expecting it to be more hysterical leftists taking shit out of context, like the wave machine.

    lol please stop quoting the Daily Mail as if it were factual reporting.
    You say this, which I'm not doing, after you post that Independent story.

    How many refugees have we taken here relative to other countries in Europe? I'll give you a hint: it's lower per capita than pretty much any other country.
    There's only so many hotels.

    What do you suggest we do? Build houses for migrants? We're not going to leave the native homeless behind are we? We're not going to fix Nigeria's problems before fixing our own are we? So we need houses for the homeless, and houses for asylum seekers, more schools and hospitals, greater social welfare burden, just to balance out with Europe's per capita rate? Maybe these asylum seekers are so desperate to come here precisely because there's too many in other European countries, it's become too expensive for France to accommodate them. Why should we relieve their problems? They should secure their borders. That's on them, not us.

    We have a lot of migrants in this country. That itself is not a bad thing. But we can't just have an open door policy like you seem to support. And frankly I find it hard to believe we don't have as many migrants as other European countries. Maybe over a ten-year time span we're behind, idk, but over 50 years we're not. We have a thriving migrant community in the UK, especially when we count second generation migrants onwards. Why should we continue to allow migrants to come in undocumented? No country should allow such a thing, except when people are fleeing a clear and obvious danger, like war or a natural disaster. That isn't what's happening. Well, people are fleeing war torn shitholes, but France isn't, and presumably neither are the several countries they travelled through before reaching France.

    We have to have some kind of deterrent, otherwise they keep doing it, criminals continue to profit by putting desperate people in serious danger. You don't seem to think about the incentive we provide to people traffickers if we escort their victims to the shore. You're too wrapped up in your anti-Tory anti-right hatred.

    I think the problem left leaning people have is their inability to take emotion out of the debate. It comes from a place of not wanting to be a cold bastard. I get it. But some things are so grave that they need to be treated coldly. No solution is perfect. Whatever you do, it's bad. These are close to war-like decisions. You escort them in, more attempt the crossing, more die because it's dangerous. People die whatever action you take. And people will call you a killer for it. This is just about the only sympathy I have for politicians... when they have to make genuinely difficult decisions and bear that weight.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #1820
    Cruela hoping to give immunity to border force personnel who contribute to death of refugees. #MEGA

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...refugee-deaths
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  21. #1821
    Take that, Finnish Eurolibtards! No more British products for you!

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...oducts-295670/
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  22. #1822
    Our best and brightest. #MEGA

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  23. #1823
    So much for replacing those xmas turkeys with wallabies.

    https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/sta...90251455688704
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  24. #1824
    Good question. £30/hour is a pretty good wage.

    https://twitter.com/i/events/1450153213034905610
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  25. #1825
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Take that, Finnish Eurolibtards! No more British products for you!

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...oducts-295670/
    Aww. I'm sure there's been some Tesco products I've bought, but can't say there's anything I'll miss. Tbf I'm not more excited about Carrefour either.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  26. #1826
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Take that, Finnish Eurolibtards! No more British products for you!

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...oducts-295670/
    Aww. I'm sure there's been some Tesco products I've bought, but can't say there's anything I'll miss. Tbf I'm not more excited about Carrefour either.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  27. #1827
    The important thing is we've exercised our sovereign right not to sell things to you.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  28. #1828
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Good question. £30/hour is a pretty good wage.

    https://twitter.com/i/events/1450153213034905610
    Just spent half an hour trying to find a £30 an hour fruit or veg picking job. Funnily enough, all searches return articles, not vacancies. Seems like one company in Lincolnshire are offering "up to £30 an hour" and the media are running wild with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #1829
    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ally-earn.html

    The £30/hr veg picking jobs are probably in the same small corner of the country that has no-one to process their pigs, shortages in retail labour, empty supermarket shelves, petrol shortages, and rising energy prices. Everywhere else things are great.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  30. #1830
    Yeah that was the first article I read when I tried to find an actual vacancy being advertised.

    I searched indeed.com too, nothing within 50 miles of my location.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #1831
    Are you getting to do this? Don't know if you're on UC or it's called something else.

    https://twitter.com/i/events/1450430771504852992
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  32. #1832
    Yes I'm on UC. I read that story this morning, and no I've never been asked to do such a thing. It's ludicrous. From what I can gather, this is an insane requirement to "prove" your identity when face-to-face meetings are not possible. That shouldn't be the case any more, I am having to attend the jobcentre every two weeks again. If the jobcentre is not yet capable of running at full capacity, they should prioritise new claims rather than old claims. New claimants are more likely to get a job, plus they are more likely to be fraudulent claims.

    A photo of your passport, with your face in the image, this is just about a reasonable request. Anyone who trades crypto has to do this. Not everyone has a passport, or a smartphone, so a few people will still need support, but for the majority of new claimants, this should be sufficient. A photo of you outside your house with the door open, holding a newspaper, or holding a street sign (which must be a misquote of some sort), these are ridiculous requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #1833
    It does seem a bit OTT.

    Next they'll be asking asylum seekers to provide photos of the bloody massacre they're running away from.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  34. #1834
    What bloody massacres are happening in France?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  35. #1835
    I had to buy Tesco brand choccie hobnobs because they'd run out of McVities. Saved a whole pound, and they're just as tasty. Brexit for the win!
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  36. #1836
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  37. #1837
    Well that's helpful. No indication of sample size, no indication of what the missing 19% voted for, and no chance of it happening anyway. If it did, what if these mind changers happen to have another change of mind two years later? Yet another vote?

    Also curious is that this not the Daily Mail, it's the Mail on Sunday... so what, this is a poll only asked in the Sunday rag, which most Daily readers don't buy? Did they have to send their answers on a postcard? If it was the website, it's just the Daily Mail.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #1838
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well that's helpful. No indication of sample size,
    You think the MoS ran a poll and only asked three people? I mean it's possible but if you're going to do that, you might as well just make up some results and not even bother asking anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    no indication of what the missing 19% voted for,
    You think the MoS deleted 19% of the responses because they were the ones who said "Brexit, fuck yeah! MEGA!" lol, it's just people who were undecided ldo.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    and no chance of it happening anyway.
    Pretty sure it will actually. Maybe not in five years, but definitely in ten. It will take time for it to sink in what a useless idea it was, but eventually it will.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If it did, what if these mind changers happen to have another change of mind two years later? Yet another vote?
    They had a referendum to join back in 1975. Don't think there's any "two referenda and done" rule on these thigns.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Also curious is that this not the Daily Mail, it's the Mail on Sunday... so what, this is a poll only asked in the Sunday rag, which most Daily readers don't buy? Did they have to send their answers on a postcard? If it was the website, it's just the Daily Mail.
    Most likely done by phone or online. They might not even have been DM readers specifically. But, if the MoS is printing it, you have to wonder where they're going with that...
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  39. #1839
    From the full article:

    lDeltapoll interviewed 3,043 British adults online between October 13 and 15. The data has been weighted to be representative of the adult population as a whole.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  40. #1840
    You think the MoS ran a poll and only asked three people? I mean it's possible but if you're going to do that, you might as well just make up some results and not even bother asking anyone.
    Obviously not 3 people, but you then say it's 3000 people. That's a tiny sample size on this subject. You would treat that sample size carefully in poker, certainly when analysing your own results.

    You think the MoS deleted 19% of the responses because they were the ones who said "Brexit, fuck yeah! MEGA!" lol, it's just people who were undecided ldo.
    I imagine they said "don't know", and it was the don't knows that swayed the last referendum. Also we don't know for sure they said "don't know" because they failed to include this missing 19%.

    Pretty sure it will actually. Maybe not in five years, but definitely in ten.
    Perhaps, but there's no point in talking about it seriously just yet, for the simple reason that we're still in transition. We can't have another vote on the matter until the transition is complete, and even then there's no guarantee that we'd be allowed back in, even if we voted for it. I presume we'd need the current member states to be in full agreement, I believe every member has a veto when it comes to new members.

    They had a referendum to join back in 1975.
    This is factually incorrect. We had a referendum in 1975 to remain. We were already a member. Also, it was not the EU, it was the EEC. They are different. The EEC was an economic union. The EU is an economic and political union. That is not a subtle difference, and it's why we left.

    But, if the MoS is printing it, you have to wonder where they're going with that...
    The DM and MoS have different editors, and as best as I can remember, they had different attitudes towards Brexit. The DM was pro-Brexit, the MoS was pro-remain. They're not the same paper just because they're owned by the same entity.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  41. #1841
    It's really easy to skew a sample size of 3000 people. Just go and ask people in the street in a city where they voted clearly to remain.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  42. #1842
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Obviously not 3 people, but you then say it's 3000 people. That's a tiny sample size on this subject. You would treat that sample size carefully in poker, certainly when analysing your own results.
    You have different variances in different domains. Just like you have more variance in NL than LHE, for example. The variance in any form of poker is waaaay more than the variance in opinion polling.

    Standard error is a function of the square root of the sample size. So, if a poll of 1500 people (which is more typical) has a margin of error of +/- 4%, a poll of 3000 has a margin of error of 4% * sqrt(1500)/sqrt(3000) = ~ 2.8%.

    It's a pretty accurate poll.





    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I imagine they said "don't know", and it was the don't knows that swayed the last referendum.
    Last poll before the referendum predicted the results within the margin of error iirc.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Also we don't know for sure they said "don't know" because they failed to include this missing 19%.
    It's hard to imagine what else they would have said. If they'd expressed an opinion one way or another, presumably that would have counted.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Perhaps, but there's no point in talking about it seriously just yet, for the simple reason that we're still in transition. We can't have another vote on the matter until the transition is complete, and even then there's no guarantee that we'd be allowed back in, even if we voted for it. I presume we'd need the current member states to be in full agreement, I believe every member has a veto when it comes to new members.
    Transition state of membership is over, we're out. We're transitioning from an economy that trades heavily with its neighbors to one that doesn't, but that's not really relevant to rejoining or not, except inasmuch as the plebs will see they've been duped into voting against their own interests.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is factually incorrect. We had a referendum in 1975 to remain. We were already a member. Also, it was not the EU, it was the EEC. They are different. The EEC was an economic union. The EU is an economic and political union. That is not a subtle difference, and it's why we left.
    Your'e just picking shit out of pepper here, but whatever, I'll humour you. The difference between the EU and the EEC may be why YOU left, but a lot of other people voted Leave because of all the lies they were told about sunlit uplands and fishing and £350m a week for the NHS. Now they're finding out those were lies, and hence the change in attitude.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The DM and MoS have different editors, and as best as I can remember, they had different attitudes towards Brexit. The DM was pro-Brexit, the MoS was pro-remain. They're not the same paper just because they're owned by the same entity.
    Kind of irrelevant since it's their readership that matters. If there's a lot of lefties reading MoS I'd be very surprised. Fuck me, I wouldn't use that rag to wipe my ass. I'll read the Times, so it's not just that I won't read a right-leaning paper. But anything that has Mail in the title goes right on my ignore list.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  43. #1843
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's really easy to skew a sample size of 3000 people. Just go and ask people in the street in a city where they voted clearly to remain.
    see post 1839
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  44. #1844
    I agree it's a somewhat interesting question whether the EU would let us back in or not. I think if we asked today they would; it's in their own best interests to have free movement of labour and goods.

    The question is whether they would let us in after a few more years of Boris and the Tories trying to fuck with them. At some point, I could see them saying "fuck this, we don't need you that badly". Especially the Frenchies if we keep sending battleships to chase their fishing boats around. And more seriously, if we keep dicking the EU around on N.I..
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  45. #1845
    It's a pretty accurate poll.
    Obviously I'm aware there's a difference between poker and opinion polling, and I'm not going to argue with your expertise on statistical analysis, but you must surely understand it's easy to skew a poll of 3000 people. Like I say, just choose your location.

    Last poll before the referendum predicted the results within the margin of error iirc.
    idk about margin of error, but as I recall, the predicted result was remain, and we voted to leave.

    It's hard to imagine what else they would have said. If they'd expressed an opinion one way or another, presumably that would have counted.
    You can have "unsure - leaning leave" and "unsure - leaning remain" to compliment "don't know". Granted this probably didn't happen, it does seem obvious that the entire 19% picked a single third option of "don't know", but seeing as this isn't included in the results, we can't be certain.

    Transition state of membership is over, we're out.
    Yes, I meant economic transition.

    The difference between the EU and the EEC may be why YOU left, but a lot of other people voted Leave because of all the lies they were told about sunlit uplands and fishing and £350m a week for the NHS.
    You choose to believe this based on what you read in the media. Your opinion on why people voted to leave is no more valid than my opinion.

    Kind of irrelevant since it's their readership that matters.
    I don't think they have the same readership, but I don't know this. Nor do you. Again, we're talking opinions here, not facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  46. #1846
    btw, I'm confident that the difference between the EEC and the EU is why a lot of old people voted to leave. I can only base this opinion on those I've spoken to, but I know several people who voted in favour of the EEC in the 70s and are deeply uncomfortable with its evolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  47. #1847
    lol, Andrea Jenkyns, pro-Brexit, pro-Trump blonde bubblehead just canceled herself after getting called out on Twitter for supporting the "dumping of raw sewage into rivers and seas" Bill.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  48. #1848
    Let's #MEGA by making it impossible for companies to get the chemicals they need to treat raw sewage, so they just have to dump it in the rivers and sea instead. Brexit ftw.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  49. #1849
    The reason for this is lack of HGV drivers, right? But this HGV crisis is not exclusive to the UK. Europe are having similar problems, in particular Poland and Germany.

    Brexit is clearly a factor, but it's nowhere near the primary cause. Apparently the govt have written to a million HGV license holders asking them to consider returning to the sector. That's a huge number of people who have chosen different jobs, around 2% of the working population. That's an insanely high number of qualified drivers we have. This is solved by making HGV driving an appealing career, and we do that by increasing pay, improving facilities and improving working conditions.

    If Germany and Poland are avoiding this sewage problem, then that probably means their governments are doing a better job of managing the HGV crisis. This seems to me government incompetence, not Brexit.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  50. #1850
    Ooh, she's back. But, if you scroll down you see she accidentally included a subtweet quote of someone who completely rebutted her argument.

    https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/st...23747096731653

    Another one of our best and brightest lol.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  51. #1851
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  52. #1852
    I mentioned earlier in this thread that bus drivers are also underpaid. We take the piss out of skilled drivers, we treat them as though they have an easy job sat on their arses when in fact it's a very skilled, demanding and dangerous job.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  53. #1853
    Did you just say driving a bus is dangerous? You're behind a vehicle with 10x the mass of anything you might collide with. How many bus drivers have died on the job?

    If we're going to pay people more for doing dangerous work, how about we start with firemen. They start at about the same wage as bus drivers do, and they're actually risking their lives.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  54. #1854
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  55. #1855
    Did you just say driving a bus is dangerous? You're behind a vehicle with 10x the mass of anything you might collide with. How many bus drivers have died on the job?
    Dangerous doesn't just mean for the bus driver. It's dangerous for other road users, which means a greater responsibility for the driver, in the same way it's dangerous to drive a HGV. Also, busses can and do come off the road and roll down hills, or fall off sheer edges like cliffs. Busses are harder to control than cars so this danger is greater than driving a car. Oh and some bus drivers get attacked by members of the public, for example the guy who got stabbed for refusing to let someone without a mask on, I think that was France.

    If we're going to pay people more for doing dangerous work, how about we start with firemen.
    No argument here.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  56. #1856
    I could get hit by a bus on my way to work. So I guess my job is dangerous too. Goddamn it, I deserve a raise!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  57. #1857
    Only you could find a way to argue with me when I say driving a bus is dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  58. #1858
    Because in relative terms, it isn't. Sure, driving a bus is more dangerous than never leaving your house, but it's generally not considered a high-risk occupation by insurance agencies. A teacher is more likely to be assaulted at work than a bus driver is, for example.

    https://worksmart.org.uk/health-advi...y-highest-risk

    Similarly, firemen, police, construction workers, oil field workers, fishermen, etc. are all more likely to die at work than bus drivers. I could probably list you a hundred other occupations that are more high-risk than bus driving but it's too stupid to even argue about. I'm sure you have some story about how one of your mates punched a bus driver once and ergo it's a dangerouos job or some such other anecdote-based non-data.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  59. #1859
    I clarified what I meant by dangerous. I know the driver isn't likely to himself be seriously injured in an accident but he has greater responsibility than a taxi driver, because the vehicle he drives is significantly heavier. That means the job is more difficult, he requires more training and thus better pay.

    For some reason you chose to ignore my clarification and continue to argue about what you think I initially meant by "dangerous".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  60. #1860
    I mean you're basically making the argument that firing a gun isn't dangerous, because you're very unlikely to hurt yourself, unless of course that's your intention.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  61. #1861
    I think the word you're looking for is "responsibility," and fine, it's more responsibility than say, being a shop clerk.

    It's still not on the level of responsibility of, say, a nurse, a doctor, a fireman, a policeman, etc. I mean no-one thinks of it as a job where you're regularly making life-or-death decisions. Just drive the bus and don't hit people with it. It doesn't take a superhero to do that.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  62. #1862
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The reason for this is lack of HGV drivers, right? But this HGV crisis is not exclusive to the UK. Europe are having similar problems, in particular Poland and Germany.
    There's a little thing called the EU that means when there's a shortage of labour in one or two countries, it can be filled by labour from the remaining countries.

    That's why Germany or Poland don't have shortages of food or fuel, and don't have raw shit flowing through their waterways. The reason we have this sewage problem is because places in the UK can't get the chemicals needed to treat sewage because the place we normally get those chemicals from is the same place we just recently chose to dissociate ourselves from economically. So they're having to prioritise cleaning drinking water over cleaning sewage. This exact problem was in fact predicted ahead of Brexit by the so-called Project Fear people.

    So yeah, it's mostly Brexit, if not entirely Brexit, that is causing this latest mess.

    The gov't can't fix the problem without fixing Brexit. And they can't fix Brexit without admitting it was a dumb idea in the first place. And no Tory gov't will ever do that.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  63. #1863
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Apparently the govt have written to a million HGV license holders asking them to consider returning to the sector.
    Maybe they should have thought of that before things got to the point where we were dumping raw sewage into our waterways.

    Also, how many of those people have they managed to entice back into driving a HGV? 'Cause I assume if they're fully qualified they've already chosen a different career path. I mean I'm fully qualified to pour drinks in a pub but if the gov't sends me a letter asking me to help fill all those hospitality vacancies I'm not exactly going to jump at the chance to pull their nuts out of the fire.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  64. #1864
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I think the word you're looking for is "responsibility," and fine, it's more responsibility than say, being a shop clerk.

    It's still not on the level of responsibility of, say, a nurse, a doctor, a fireman, a policeman, etc. I mean no-one thinks of it as a job where you're regularly making life-or-death decisions. Just drive the bus and don't hit people with it. It doesn't take a superhero to do that.
    Well the same could be said about HGV drivers, assuming they're not driving tankers filled with petrol anyway. But we at least recognise the economic importance of a HGV driver. A bus driver is equally as important, people need to travel for the economy to function properly, and busses provide a low budget option suitable for cities and towns.

    And I'm not disputing that there are more important jobs out there, not sure why you're focussing on doctors and the like. I'm not suggesting these people should be paid minimum wage.

    There's a little thing called the EU that means when there's a shortage of labour in one or two countries, it can be filled by labour from the remaining countries.
    The shortage is widespread across the continent, I just named the countries comparable to the UK.

    So yeah, it's mostly Brexit, if not entirely Brexit, that is causing this latest mess.
    You're actually in the minority who thinks this, it seems. Most observers, from what I can tell, consider Brexit to be a minor factor, accounting for a few thousand absent drivers.

    The gov't can't fix the problem without fixing Brexit.
    What do you mean by "fixing" Brexit? Reversing our decision to leave? Or managing the transition better? If it's the latter, I agree.

    And they can't fix Brexit without admitting it was a dumb idea in the first place.
    This is you applying your bias to what should be an objective discussion. You absolutely do not need to admit that it was "dumb" because it assumes everyone thinks like you do.

    Maybe they should have thought of that before things got to the point where we were dumping raw sewage into our waterways.
    This implies you're acutely aware this is about management, not the decision to leave. Had the govt improved working conditions for HGV in advance, we wouldn't have such a problem.

    Also, how many of those people have they managed to entice back into driving a HGV?
    No idea, if you find figures let me know.

    Cause I assume if they're fully qualified they've already chosen a different career path.
    Indeed, like driving white vans instead.

    I mean I'm fully qualified to pour drinks...
    Me too, and if this was an economically essential job, and the govt were offering me £30 an hour to pour drinks, I'd very probably consider getting off my arse and getting a job. Unfortunately it's not an economically essential job and it remains a shit minimum wage job suitable for students, not 40+ y/o men.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #1865
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well the same could be said about HGV drivers, assuming they're not driving tankers filled with petrol anyway. But we at least recognise the economic importance of a HGV driver. A bus driver is equally as important, people need to travel for the economy to function properly, and busses provide a low budget option suitable for cities and towns.
    Every job is economically important. That's why jobs exist. So just saying we need bus drivers is no different from saying we need people to do work. That doesn't mean every job deserves an equally high wage.

    And yes thanks, I understand why we have public transport.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  66. #1866
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The shortage is widespread across the continent, I just named the countries comparable to the UK.
    And yet, we're the only ones experiencing shortages of food, shortages of petrol, and the need to dump raw sewage into our waterways. What sets us apart from those other countries I wonder?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  67. #1867
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You're actually in the minority who thinks this, it seems. Most observers, from what I can tell, consider Brexit to be a minor factor, accounting for a few thousand absent drivers.
    And yet we're the only ones having the problems I stated above because of it. It's almost as if the free movement of labour is good for an economy somehow, like when there's a shortage of labour in one type of job.

    And who or what do most people blame for the shortage of seasonal farm labour?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  68. #1868
    Every job is economically important.
    Nearly every job, but yes you're right, it's just some more than others. The country isn't going to grind to a halt if pubs close. There might be a lot of pissed off people, including breweries, but we won't starve.

    That doesn't mean every job deserves an equally high wage.
    I never suggested this. But some jobs are clearly more important than others, require a greater degree of skill, and those who do some jobs have more responsibility than others. That's why your shelf stacker doesn't get paid the same as a doctor. Of course your shelf stacker does an essential job, unlike the barman, but it's such an unskilled job that it's hard to argue it merits more than minimum wage.

    And yet, we're the only ones experiencing shortages of food
    I've seen images on social media of empty shelves in France.

    ...shortages of petrol, and the need to dump raw sewage into our waterways. What sets us apart from those other countries I wonder?
    Well I'm suggesting that maybe it could primarily be the incompetence of government, rather than membership of a superstate.

    And yet we're the only ones having the problems I stated above because of it.
    You're happy to blame Brexit when it suits you, and then blame the awful government when that suits you. You have two go-to sources of blame, depending on which you prefer for a given argument.

    And who or what do most people blame for the shortage of seasonal farm labour?
    Whoever is in charge of advertising vacancies imo. It wasn't long ago we were talking about £30 an hour veg picking jobs... which inspired me to try and find such a job. I couldn't find any in my area, which implies one of two things... either they're not doing a good enough job of advertising these vacancies, or no such shortage exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  69. #1869
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I've seen images on social media of empty shelves in France.
    Social media is not a viable source of information.

    Last time social media was talking about empty shelves in Europe it was in Belgium. And it happened because of a strike. But hey, you believe what you want. There's probably someone somewhere working in a Tesco night shift who will empty some shelves, post a photo on social media, and claim it's a picture taken in Germany.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You're happy to blame Brexit when it suits you, and then blame the awful government when that suits you. You have two go-to sources of blame, depending on which you prefer for a given argument.
    Don't misunderstand me. Brexit is causing us a lot of problems. These problems only get made worse by a gov't that doesn't want to admit Brexit is causing problems and tries to pretend it's something else, or (more often) pretends the problems don't really exist.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Whoever is in charge of advertising vacancies imo. It wasn't long ago we were talking about £30 an hour veg picking jobs... which inspired me to try and find such a job. I couldn't find any in my area, which implies one of two things... either they're not doing a good enough job of advertising these vacancies, or no such shortage exists.
    Or, that the farms paying £30/hr aren't actually in your area. It's a big country mate, and there's farms that exist outside of the midlands or wherever you live.

    And, I guess this Tory MP was full of shit then too. Must have just felt like embarrassing his own party and PM. Probably having a bad day.





    p.s. Check out Cruela's face at 0.40. She's getting the gimp suit and torture room ready for this guy lol.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 10-25-2021 at 02:39 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  70. #1870
    The whole dumping raw sewage thing is a good example of a problem caused by Brexit that the gov't is not admitting is caused by Brexit, and so doing nothing to fix.

    Now we're out of the EU, the chemicals we used to import from the EU to treat our sewage are harder to get. The gov't is instead blaming it on "Victorian infrastructure," like that's something that just recently started to become an issue.

    But hey, I'm sure our fishermen will have no problems selling our contaminated fish to countries without standards. Ought to open up whole new markets. Riiiight.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  71. #1871
    Did a long drive on Friday night, not arriving at my destination until gone 3am. Stopped at a couple of services after 10pm and it really hit home how bad we are at providing facilities to HGV drivers. Nothing open, nobody around, scummy shower facilities. That said, I did pass something called Truck Haven, which is presumably better but few and far between.
  72. #1872
    ^ Yup, I'm sure that doesn't help things any.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  73. #1873
    Poop posts links to images on social media of empty shelves and then tells me social media isn't a viable source of information. Funny.

    Now we're out of the EU, the chemicals we used to import from the EU to treat our sewage are harder to get.
    Why are they harder to get? Because we haven't got enough HGV drivers to deliver them. It's not a scarcity, it's not border problems, it's a logistics problem due to a sector being understaffed. How many EU drivers left the UK? How many UK drivers left the sector? The first number is much smaller than the last number, so this isn't my pro-Brexit bias saying the main problem is not Brexit. It's a minor factor.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  74. #1874
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Poop posts links to images on social media of empty shelves and then tells me social media isn't a viable source of information. Funny.
    Using social media is just a convenience. I can easily find you a photo from a reputable news source showing the same thing, plenty of them in fact. You can't. That's the difference.

    Here's one from 3 days ago in the Guardian.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...-supply-issues



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Why are they harder to get? Because we haven't got enough HGV drivers to deliver them.
    That's part of it, but not all of it. It's also a pain for them to export to us now so they no longer prioritise the UK customers like they used to. You've heard of businesses saying they're not going to sell to the UK because of Brexit? This is a softer version of that. They're saying "Meeeh, we don't know how much longer we're going to be able to do business with you before we have to start going through all this customs paperwork, so we're going to start putting our other customers ahead of you. Good luck."


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    How many EU drivers left the UK?
    Estimates are between 15-20k since Brexit.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    How many UK drivers left the sector?
    Since Brexit? I doubt it's more than 15k.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The first number is much smaller than the last number
    Based on numbers you got from...?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  75. #1875
    reputable news source
    the Guardian
    Chortle.

    You've heard of businesses saying they're not going to sell to the UK because of Brexit?
    No. Most businesses like customers, it's worth the hassle to make money. Prove to me that chemical companies are refusing to sell us what we need. Show me this is a supply problem. I would imagine these companies are under contract, and I would also imagine they would like to keep their customers because it's long term repeat custom. I don't even know what chemicals we need, where they can be sourced, if we can source them ourselves. Do you know?

    Based on numbers you got from...?
    I was basing it off the million letters the government have sent out asking HGV drivers to consider returning to the sector.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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