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*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

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  1. #2026
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Maybe you should both just extend the benefit of the doubt to each other and reflect upon the years of conversation that have happened on this one topic.

    I mean, I don't care. You do you.

    Seems like you like to bicker about not listening to each other as much as you like not listening to each other sometimes.
    Most of the time, actually.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  2. #2027
    I'm gonna be honest here mojo, I continue this back and forth because I'd rather argue about this topic with one guy who I kinda like than with a bunch of mouthbreathing gobshites on Twitter. I avoid Brexit on there for the most part because it's not particularly fun engaging with that mob. It's fun to troll them now and then but even that can get tiresome. Here, it's just poop, and he can take the odd sarcastic comment on the chin, so can I, we can both vent off about Brexit without anyone getting butthurt and blocked or muted or cancelled.

    Presumably he gets something out of it too.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #2028
    I don't know Ong, I think he may be right. Could be time for us to seek internet couples' conselling.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  4. #2029
    No we don't need counselling, you just need to embrace democracy. It's like giving your dog a hug when he's just come out of a muddy puddle. He might be covered in shit but it's still your dog under there.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #2030
    Or I could wash my dog first to clean the muck off him.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  6. #2031
    Yeah but a clean dog in this analogy is nothing more than the time between elections. When it's election or referendum time, it's dirty whoever wins.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #2032
    Meanwhile in the real world, Brexit's still going great!

    https://twitter.com/securetrans/stat...85307438821388
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  8. #2033
    Remainer - look at all those lorries
    Brexiteer - look at all that trade
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #2034
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Remainer - look at all those lorries
    Brexiteer - look at all that trade
    Are they trading? Looks like they're stuck in a giant queue to me.

    Also, no-one ever said trade with the EU would stop entirely after Brexit - that's ridiculous. They said there'd be a lot more red tape that would hinder trade. Looks like they were right. Ironically, another one of the Brexit promises was less red tape something something Brussels unelected bureaucrats something something sovereignty something something foreigners.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  10. #2035
    Local sports team rebrands themselves



    Thoughts? As someone with just enough NA blood to get me an even tan in the summer, I really don't have strong feelings about this one way or the other. OTOH it seems a bit too woke to me, like it isn't insulting anyone really.

    OTOH I think if it offends a significant number of people, like it's being insensitive to past misdeeds, then yeah replace it. It's not like in Germany you could call your rugby team the Hamburg Rabbis.

    I guess what I'm wondering is, how many people really give a shit? How many native americans were lying awake at night over the original logo, and how many English people are freaking out that they changed it? Meh.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  11. #2036
    This is the kind of thing that people with absolutely no cultural interest get angry about. I don't think there were actually American Natives offended. It's pure wokeism.

    Fairly recently, I remember something about Japanese "cultural appropriation", I think it was a white celebrity wearing a traditional Japanese dress. There was a lot said about it, but the Japanese themselves were happy that their culture was being celebrated. It's very rarely the people who are being "appropriated" that get upset about it. It's white middle class tossers.

    Also, the new logo looks like Atilla the Hun. That's gotta offend somebody. I might decide to get offended by it to be an arsehole.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #2037
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    @Ong: various groups (tribes?) of Native Americans (NA) have been protesting this for decades.

    There are a lot of reasons, of varying levels of compelling (to me) that NA are upset about the use of cartoon images of their ancestors as mascots.

    It is often the case that a sporting team's mascot is a dangerous beast, e.g. Lions, Bears, Rams, Tigers, etc. and putting a group of humans in that list is problematic.

    The appropriation of the imagery of NA people without permission or contract for something that makes as much money as major league sports is problematic. Especially given how legally protective those major leagues are of *their* imagery.

    A team's mascot is effectively that sport's version of a rodeo clown, and the depiction of of a homogenized NA clown in a public space is problematic.

    The sporting teams that use these mascots are not sports traditionally played by those people.



    Again, I'm not saying all those reasons are equally compelling, but it's just a quick overview of some of the reasons NA people have been protesting this. It's not new. It's been a big deal for NA leaders for decades, and they've been lobbying the sporting leagues, and politicians for, again, decades.

    If non-NA people are finally listening to them, then that's probably a good thing, even if the woke-ism is not that good.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  13. #2038
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Actually, given your views on sovereignty, I'm a little surprised your knee-jerk reaction isn't to side with the Native Americans.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  14. #2039
    Well you have to bear in mind that this isn't a cultural problem in the UK. The term "Red Indian" is far more common in the UK than "Native American" since there's not really anyone here to get offended by archaic terms. Exeter Rugby Club is not a sports club that many NAs will be familiar with at all, I doubt there are many Americans who even know where Exeter is.

    This isn't a matter of sovereignty. We're not talking about their right to land and their right to political self rule. We're talking about imagery. I just don't understand the argument. Why would anyone be offended by an image of a Native American in a traditional headdress? Why is it a problem? Seems more like a copyright issue than a cultural one.

    I personally think cultural appropriation is, on balance, a good thing. It increases awareness of and respect for other cultures.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  15. #2040
    I tend to side with Ong on this one. That particular image looks pretty cool if you ask me. It's a bit funny that they chose that nickname since they're in Europe, kind of like calling themselves the Aztecs, but w/e. My sense is the kind of person that gets offended by this image is the kind who goes around looking for things to get upset about. It doesn't upset me.

    But, there are certain NAI logos that are very 1930s cartoony. I don't know if this one is still in use, it is/was the Cleveland Indians logo, but it was/is pretty bad.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  16. #2041
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I personally think cultural appropriation is, on balance, a good thing. It increases awareness of and respect for other cultures.
    Yeah this is something I really struggle to understand people getting worked up about. If imitation is the highest form of flattery, then how can cultural appropriation be bad? It's a fucking compliment, someone thinks your culture is cool enough to want to borrow a bit of it.

    If it's done in a mocking way, then yeah it's obnoxious, but it seems like that's not the point for some people - they'll get their beans baked even if it's done tastefully.

    In b4 Vanilla Ice goes before the Hague tribunal for crimes against humanity.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  17. #2042
    Fun fact: Rock and roll was cultural appropriation of blues music. Tear down Graceland!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  18. #2043
    Well this is the main problem I have with it all. Where does it end? If copying certain aspects of a culture is cultural appropriation and this is a bad thing, then that means we should cancel 95% of music. The English should be legally bound to only make Tudor-style folk music and psychedelic boy band pop rock, and Daft Punk should change all the name of their songs, such as "Around the World" into "Dans le Monde Entier".

    That big teeth logo is pretty cheesy, but I fail to see how it's offensive. You can just as easily find such ridiculous cartoonish images of white people.

    I'm not sure why Exeter call themselves the "Chiefs". We don't get silly names like this in football, not sure why rugby feels the need to do this. Just looking at the list of Premier League rugby clubs in England, we have the Chiefs, Bears, Tigers, Falcons, Sharks, Warriors and Saints. I don't mind Warriors and Saints, but none of the others make any sense for an English club.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  19. #2044
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well this is the main problem I have with it all. Where does it end? If copying certain aspects of a culture is cultural appropriation and this is a bad thing, then that means we should cancel 95% of music. The English should be legally bound to only make Tudor-style folk music and psychedelic boy band pop rock, and Daft Punk should change all the name of their songs, such as "Around the World" into "Dans le Monde Entier".
    Exactly.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    That big teeth logo is pretty cheesy, but I fail to see how it's offensive. You can just as easily find such ridiculous cartoonish images of white people.
    As a sports logo? Not sure offensive is the right word for it, but it's unflattering at the very least. If you lived in Africa and a sports team there had a caricature of a white person as their logo...?

    There's no good reason to have a logo that takes the piss out of a minority.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm not sure why Exeter call themselves the "Chiefs". We don't get silly names like this in football, not sure why rugby feels the need to do this. Just looking at the list of Premier League rugby clubs in England, we have the Chiefs, Bears, Tigers, Falcons, Sharks, Warriors and Saints. I don't mind Warriors and Saints, but none of the others make any sense for an English club.
    Animal references are fine if they evoke strength or ferocity or w/e. Cultural references should at least have some relation to the place the team resides in, or they just seem dumb.

    Some of them make sense, like Minnesota Vikings in US football. The state is frozen six months of the year and has a lot of scandinavians living there. And the logo looks cool, not goofy.

    @ the bolded: do soccer teams even have nicknames. I can't remember ever hearing one.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  20. #2045
    Yeah football teams have nicknames but not all are well known. Commonly used ones are the Gunners for Arsenal, Spurs for Tottenham Hotspur, Wolves for Wolverhampton Wanderers... all clubs have nicknames but most of them are fairly obscure, like the Irons for West Ham Utd, the Toffeemen for Everton, and the Red Devils for Man Utd. I'm a Birmingham City fan, we're the Blues, we play in blue, it's a boring nickname but at least it's not cheesy. We also commonly get called Brum, the nickname of the city.

    In terms of their official name, most English teams are either United, City or Town. Then there's Albion, Rovers and Wanderers, all used by multiple clubs in each case. I think those six cover the most commonly used names.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  21. #2046
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #2047
    Like a bad boy finally getting a spanking. Starts at 5:10.

    Last edited by Poopadoop; 01-31-2022 at 06:24 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  23. #2048
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Like a bad boy finally getting a spanking. Starts at 5:10.

    When is this fucking incompetent, corrupt, dim-witted cunt going to give it up?
  24. #2049
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    When is this fucking incompetent, corrupt, dim-witted cunt going to give it up?

    Hopefully not before he drags the rest of the incompetent, corrupt, dim-witted cunts in his party down with him.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  25. #2050
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  26. #2051
    We've got Starmer now boys.

    Oh, damn!

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...er-office-beer


    Well, there's still that Jimmy Savile thing, that oughtta stick

    https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/stat...68757247758340

    Oh, snap!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  27. #2052
    Britain Trump trending on twitter.

    Starmer being chased into a police car after BloJo falsely accused him in Parliament of protecting a pedo while he was Director of Prosecutions.

    https://twitter.com/OliDugmore/statu...57027110526977
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  28. #2053
    I dunno about "falsely". I'm not saying Starmer is personally responsible for protecting Jimmy Savile, but it's very clear that Savile was being protected, and Starmer must have known about this in his role as DoP. We can speculate all day about who should be held accountable for the Savile scandal, but anyone who knew something was happening and did nothing are at least somewhat complicit. If I were one of those people, it would weigh very heavy on my heart. I would feel like I helped protect a paedo. I might not have been a choice, it might have been a direct order. Who knows?

    Starmer was part of the system that protected Savile, that's a reasonable thing to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #2054
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Starmer was part of the system that protected Savile, that's a reasonable thing to say.
    It's been proven that he had no part in the decision to not prosecute.

    Serious question: what do you think the DoP does? Do you think he decides in every case whether to go ahead and prosecute or not? Like, a junior prosecutor sends a report to the DoP, makes a recommendation, and the DoP then stays up all night reading reports and having the final say in what happens in each and every case? Do you realise how absurd that would be?

    Starmer had nothing to do with it. He's no more responsible for that than Priti Patel is when a couple of Met cops go around posting instagram photos of dead bodies. People below him fucked up, that's all. He ordered an investigation into it, and it found people below him fucked up. That's what he apologised for.

    Of course, in hindsight, you can say it should have been obvious Savile was a scumbag, and the complaints should have been taken seriously, and they weren't. But that was nothing to do with Starmer. Not his job to make decisions in individual cases, never was.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  30. #2055
    I mean if this story had any credibility at all, I very much doubt a bunch of Tory MPs would be going out in public and calling it out as a backhanded slur, the PMs chief advisor wouldn't resign because he refused to retract it, and say that's precisely why she's resigning, and have the only people supporting the story be the kind who turn up at parliament to shout at Starmer about that and other tinfoil hat shit about freemasons and the New World Order.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  31. #2056
    It's been proven that he had no part in the decision to not prosecute.
    I never suggested he was part of the decision. But he might have been aware of the decision. There's a difference.

    Serious question: what do you think the DoP does?
    We're not talking here about a nobody. People knew Savile was up to something terrible. It was showbiz gossip, do you think the DoP isn't going to hear about such a rumour? He might not ever have seen any evidence, but he must have been aware of a lack of investigation. It would be the highest profile investigation in the entire department, how could he not know about it? So he knows nothing was happening from a police pov. Was he aware of the rumours? Only he can know that, that isn't something that gets proven unless he admits it himself. But I'd be very surprised if he didn't.

    People below him fucked up
    No, people above him were protecting Savile.

    The problem with Boris' comments is it's very clearly an attempt to politicise such a dark event for no reason other than to insult Starmer. It's dirty politics. It isn't fair to blame Starmer any more than the countless other civil servants who could have intervened, not without evidence that he was involved in the decision making. Boris is completely in the wrong here. But that doesn't mean Starmer conscie3nce is completely clear.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  32. #2057
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    he might have been aware of the decision.
    The CPP do 800,000 prosecutions a year, you can't assume the DPP knows about all those, never mind those plus all the investigations that don't lead to a prosecution, and never mind all the complaints that get made and aren't seriously investigated. You make it sound like maybe Starmer had a direct line to the police station and they were calling him hourly to keep him up to date on Savile. It wasn't like that. He was a busy guy, he couldn't be expected to take a personal interest in every possible crime in the country, even if it involved a celebrity.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    People knew Savile was up to something terrible. It was showbiz gossip, do you think the DoP isn't going to hear about such a rumour? He might not ever have seen any evidence, but he must have been aware of a lack of investigation. It would be the highest profile investigation in the entire department, how could he not know about it?
    Savile started abusing people in the 1960s. He was first interviewed by Surrey police in 2008 and 2009. The prosecutor in charge didn't try to build a case for whatever reason.

    If Starmer was ever briefed about it officially, there'd be a record of it. There isn't. In any case, he wasn't in a position where he could go around telling people who to prosecute and who to leave alone on his own initiative. That's not how the DPP job works.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    No, people above him were protecting Savile.
    That's one interpretation. Hard to know what the prosecutor in question was thinking, and he certainly got blasted for it in the report.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It isn't fair to blame Starmer any more than the countless other civil servants who could have intervened, not without evidence that he was involved in the decision making.
    You're assuming they all knew Savile was guilty, when he hadn't even been properly investigated until he was already dead.

    The fault with Savile is the police didn't follow up on him, and the prosecutor didn't try to build a case. It never got to Starmer.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  33. #2058
    Well I don't know what did or didn't get to Starmer, and quite frankly I find it absurd to believe anything the state has to say about the matter, since the state is implicated in this whole affair. Savile was friends with the Royal Family and former Prime Ministers, some of whom have also been accused of horrific crimes. Ted Heath, Prince Andrew, these are hugely powerful and unpleasant people. Who knows how deep this all goes?

    I don't think Starmer is to blame. This is way higher than him. Did Starmer keep his mouth shut for the good of his career and health? Maybe, but if that's true then so did a lot of other people, and I mean a lot.

    The fault with Savile is the police didn't follow up on him
    This isn't the fault of regular investigating cops. The fault lies with this who make decisions. Your guess is as good as mine when it comes to identifying who made the decisions. Someone, somewhere made the decision to not investigate Savile. That wasn't incompetence, it was to protect him. He was untouchable. This is what Starmer must have known.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  34. #2059
    ^^ There's a lot of speculation here and not a lot of facts. All we know is a famous guy got accused of perving on kids and the investigation never got off the ground until he died. There's a lot of people at the bottom of the chain that didn't seem to be doing their job, but for some reason you assume it's because someone way up said to let him go.

    Maybe the cop and prosecutors at the front end of this thing had a soft spot for the guy. Maybe they grew up watching him on TV, and thought he was a great guy who couldn't possibly hurt anyone. Maybe they had some unhealthy deference for his celebrity status. Maybe he was good at lying. Maybe they didn't think they had enough evidence. Maybe it was some combination of those things. Who knows? But, these seem like more parsimonious explanations for why he wasn't pursued than the whole conspiracy theory thing you seem to be running with.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This is what Starmer must have known.
    There's no evidence he knew anything. You're basically doing a Boris here, assuming guilt by association.

    At least you seem to understand it wasn't his decision not to prosecute.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  35. #2060
    LOL at this guy's acting.

    https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status...89024024350721

    We may need a MCGA thread soon.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  36. #2061
    but for some reason you assume it's because someone way up said to let him go.
    Prime ministers and princes. It's easier to believe that the protection is coming from the top when this is the company you keep.

    There's no evidence he knew anything. You're basically doing a Boris here, assuming guilt by association.
    No evidence, but I'm suggesting he should have known, and probably did know, that there were well founded rumours, and that no investigation was taking place. Johnny Rotten from the Sex Pistols knew, you think the chief of police didn't know?

    At least you seem to understand it wasn't his decision not to prosecute.
    The standard of proof needs to be much higher in this regard. It's easy to sit here and say he should have know this and that, but to accuse him of being part of the decision making process, that's a particularly serious accusation. I really do believe it goes to the very top, well above Starmer's head.

    btw, there must be a ton of sitting MPs who also must have known something. Starmer isn't alone here, he just happens to have held a senior position that attracts more accountability.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  37. #2062
    Did Johnny Rotten go to the police and swear an affidavit? 'Cause just saying "I knew it all along" after the fact isn't going to hold up in court.

    I mean I'm sympathetic to the idea there was some cover up, but I don't choose it as my default explanation. It's very hard to prosecute rape cases to begin with, and given Savile's image with the public and the esteem people held him in, it seems simpler to just assume the cops/prosecutor were just giving him too much benefit of the doubt.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  38. #2063
    Here's Johnny Rotten in a 1978 radio interview...



    The BBC edited out these comments when broadcasting this interview.

    This isn't a "benefit of the doubt" situation. This is an example of a highly influential person who is close friends with powerful people being allowed to continue his horrific crimes for decades. This isn't even a controversial opinion, it's widely accepted that Savile was protected. His 1974 autobiography contained admissions, there were plenty of accusations, when you have people making accusations and self-written evidence to support those accusations, you've at the very least got an investigation. That didn't happen, and it's not because someone was on a cigarette break or was too busy chasing robbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #2064
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Here's Johnny Rotten in a 1978 radio interview...



    The BBC edited out these comments when broadcasting this interview.

    This isn't a "benefit of the doubt" situation. This is an example of a highly influential person who is close friends with powerful people being allowed to continue his horrific crimes for decades. This isn't even a controversial opinion, it's widely accepted that Savile was protected. His 1974 autobiography contained admissions, there were plenty of accusations, when you have people making accusations and self-written evidence to support those accusations, you've at the very least got an investigation. That didn't happen, and it's not because someone was on a cigarette break or was too busy chasing robbers.
    What you've shown isn't evidence for what you're claiming it is.

    Broadcasters have to follow libel laws. You can't allow your guests to say libellous things, because you (the broadcaster) will get in trouble for it. Listen to any radio programme with live callers - the presenter will always shit their pants anytime a caller gets even close to saying something libelous. That's one of the main reasons why they have live callers on a 7 second delay (the other is swearing).

    So this interview doesn't prove anything even close to a cover up. It proves the BBC were following libel laws, which any broadcaster is supposed to do.

    You may be right about his auto-biography, (I'm not about to read it). But does he actually say in it "I raped kids"? Or is it more subtle than that? I think you may be confusing hints with confessions here.

    As for there being plenty of accusations, I only heard of the three that were investigated by Surrey police in 2009. Are these other ones documented, or just a bunch that came out later? It's important to keep the timeline of these things straight, because you can't investigate accusations that haven't been made yet. If someone came out after he died and said "yeah, he diddled me too," that's not evidence of a cover up. It's evidence of an accusation being made well after the event took place.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  40. #2065
    Libel is making untrue allegations, Johnny was not saying libelous things. And no it doesn't prove a cover up, but it demonstrates that in 1978 it was showbiz gossip. People knew what he was up to, but very few spoke about it. Johnny is one of the few who did speak out, but they didn't broadcast the comments. The BBC have been heavily implicated in this murky affair, systematic failures time and again which allowed him to continue abusing. You don't keep making the same mistakes for decades. For him to be so high profile, with people knowing, and to get away with it for so long, there were people pulling strings for him. He was untouchable.

    You may be right about his auto-biography, (I'm not about to read it)
    Nor am I, I'll go as far as reading his Wikipedia page and leave it at that. So I don't know the specific comments. I don't think we're talking about outright confessions though, but from what I can tell from a quick google search, he often talks about angry parents. Point is, there's stuff that an investigating officer can work with.

    As for there being plenty of accusations, I only heard of the three that were investigated by Surrey police in 2009. Are these other ones documented, or just a bunch that came out later? It's important to keep the timeline of these things straight, because you can't investigate accusations that haven't been made yet. If someone came out after he died and said "yeah, he diddled me too," that's not evidence of a cover up. It's evidence of an accusation being made well after the event took place.
    That John Lydon interview is from 1978. There was resistance to him getting a knighthood in Thatcher's time due to concerns about his private life. He still ended up with a knighthood, which still hasn't been revoked.

    This was consistently brushed under the carpet. The police get the odd bit of evidence, they send it up the chain of command, the Crown Prosecution Service decides there's not enough evidence to prosecute. The CPS are the decision makers. Who's pulling their strings?

    There are lots of girls and boys who could have been interviewed. Lots of victims, parents, colleagues, friends, acquaintances, lots of people. The evidence existed, but there was never any serious attempt to find it.

    They waited for him to die before allowing him to be exposed. He was protected, it's painfully obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  41. #2066
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Libel is making unproven allegations,
    fyp

    case in point: The only thing saving Boris from a libel suit where Starmer slaps him silly all over court is parliamentary privelege.

    As for the rest, yeah maybe he was protected but it's still got nothing to do with Starmer.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  42. #2067
    That's not quite accurate. If you successfully sue for libel, and then the claims are proven to be true, you committed perjury. Ask Jeffery Archer.

    Libel is making untrue allegations. If you make true but unproven allegations, it kinda puts the accused in zugzwang... sue for libel and risk going to jail for perjury, or do nothing and give the allegations credit.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #2068
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    That John Lydon interview is from 1978.
    So if one weirdo celebrity who claims to want to kill nearly everyone in the business calls another weirdo celebrity a sleazeball and makes a vague reference to "rumours," the police should investigate them for pedophilia? Jesus Christ, get Columbo on the case.

    How many actual people came forward and accused him is the question. There has to be a record of it somewhere.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  44. #2069
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    That's not quite accurate. If you successfully sue for libel, and then the claims are proven to be true, you committed perjury. Ask Jeffery Archer.

    Libel is making untrue allegations. If you make true but unproven allegations, it kinda puts the accused in zugzwang... sue for libel and risk going to jail for perjury, or do nothing and give the allegations credit.
    The point is the onus is on the accuser to prove the allegations true. That's a high standard.

    And if you're a broadcaster there's no reason to risk a libel suit. Granted, I think what Mr. Rotten said was sufficiently vague not to be considered libelous, but the BBC probably asked their lawyer and he told them not to risk it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  45. #2070
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    So if one weirdo celebrity who claims to want to kill nearly everyone in the business calls another weirdo celebrity a sleazeball and makes a vague reference to "rumours," the police should investigate them for pedophilia? Jesus Christ, get Columbo on the case.

    How many actual people came forward and accused him is the question. There has to be a record of it somewhere.
    I'm sure there is a record of it somewhere. I very much doubt Johnny is the only one who spoke out, but we're talking here about a time where it was very easy to make evidence disappear, so who knows?

    Victims came forward, and the CPS didn't bring charges. This isn't about Johnny at all, I only showed you that to demonstrate that as far back as 1978 people were talking about it, and that's the evidence that has survived and is publicly available.

    And if you're a broadcaster there's no reason to risk a libel suit. Granted, I think what Mr. Rotten said was sufficiently vague not to be considered libelous, but the BBC probably asked their lawyer and he told them not to risk it.
    The BBC were Savile's employer. They have a conflict of interest. As a responsible employer, Johnny's comments should at least cause the BBC to informally look into these allegations by speaking to those who work close to Savile. But they didn't, they instead sought to censor the allegations. Is that to protect their reputation, or to protect him? This went on for two decades, and he was getting the "benefit of the doubt" from the CPS, too. I think he was being protected.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  46. #2071
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm sure there is a record of it somewhere.
    You're sure there's evidence based on there being no evidence you can point to. Think about that for a minute.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I very much doubt Johnny is the only one who spoke out, but we're talking here about a time where it was very easy to make evidence disappear, so who knows?
    There COULD have been evidence that was buried, indeed.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Victims came forward, and the CPS didn't bring charges.
    Now who's Captain Hindsight?

    How were the police at the time to know the allegations were true? If someone is famous, there's a lot of whackos out there who want a piece of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This isn't about Johnny at all, I only showed you that to demonstrate that as far back as 1978 people were talking about it, and that's the evidence that has survived and is publicly available.
    "Sleazeball" and "rumours" are pretty chickenshit ways of making a rape allegation. Even Mr. Rotten knew they were just rumours, and he could have been sued for it if they turned out to be untrue. So obviously he wasn't as sure then as you are now that its' all come out.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The BBC were Savile's employer. They have a conflict of interest.
    I agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    As a responsible employer, Johnny's comments should at least cause the BBC to informally look into these allegations
    They weren't actually allegations, they were very vague hints of allegations. You can't expect people to hear the words "sleazeball" and "rumours" and jump to "pedo." Unless they already knew something, in which case yeah they were at fault.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    But they didn't, they instead sought to censor the allegations. Is that to protect their reputation, or to protect him?
    Already gave you a perfectly valid legal explanation for it.

    But if you don't buy the legal explanation (and I'm not entirely convinced myself, but it's an angle), then consider the fact that all interviews get edited. That's not necessarily censorship in the sense of covering up evidence. For all you know the person in charge just though "that seems kinda fucked he wants to kill nearly everyone starting with Jim will fix it, let's leave that bit out."


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This went on for two decades, and he was getting the "benefit of the doubt" from the CPS, too. I think he was being protected.
    The first recorded allegations came just before he died afaik. So "two decades" seems speculative.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  47. #2072
    Meanwhile, on the world stage...

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  48. #2073
    How were the police at the time to know the allegations were true? If someone is famous, there's a lot of whackos out there who want a piece of them.
    By investigating. The evidence clearly existed because it has been used to condemn him after his death.

    "Sleazeball" and "rumours" are pretty chickenshit ways of making a rape allegation. Even Mr. Rotten knew they were just rumours, and he could have been sued for it if they turned out to be untrue. So obviously he wasn't as sure then as you are now that its' all come out.
    He was sure enough to risk being sued for libel. idk if he ever made a formal allegation to the cops, or tried to tip off journalists, or anything else other than ramble on a radio interview. It's not the point. The point was, it was known about in 1978.

    Unless they already knew something, in which case yeah they were at fault.
    Well this is my point. I'm making the assumption that if Johnny Rotten knew, then so did a lot of other people in showbiz and music. And by the end of the 80s, when Thatcher knew, the BBC were still not taking these rumours seriously. Everyone's talking about it but nobody is investigating it. Not the police, not his employers, nobody.

    The first recorded allegations came just before he died afaik. So "two decades" seems speculative.
    Robert Armstrong, the head of the Honours Committee, resisted his knighthood during Thatcher's time. An anonymous letter received by the committee in 1998 said that "reports of a paedophilia nature" could emerge about Savile. I'm really not sure what it takes for you to think there was a cover up. They knew.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  49. #2074
    Goddamn Eurolibtards and their red tape! Good thing we left so we don't have to deal with it anymore. #MEGA

    https://twitter.com/NatalieElphicke/...52420508971008
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  50. #2075
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    By investigating. The evidence clearly existed because it has been used to condemn him after his death.
    The evidence has to both exist and be presented to someone who can do something with it. It's easy to say the evidence was there but it's not as easy to say it had been brought to the attention of the relevant authorities.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    He was sure enough to risk being sued for libel. idk if he ever made a formal allegation to the cops, or tried to tip off journalists, or anything else other than ramble on a radio interview. It's not the point. The point was, it was known about in 1978.
    He didn't call him a pedo in 1978. That's the point. He made some vague insinuations. For all anyone could have known from what he said on that interview, he might have meant Savile was dealing drugs out of his basement, or cheating at poker.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm making the assumption that if Johnny Rotten knew, then so did a lot of other people in showbiz and music. And by the end of the 80s, when Thatcher knew, the BBC were still not taking these rumours seriously. Everyone's talking about it but nobody is investigating it. Not the police, not his employers, nobody.
    The only evidence you have that JR knew is that he said so twenty years after making some vague insinuations. Pretty weak.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Robert Armstrong, the head of the Honours Committee, resisted his knighthood during Thatcher's time. An anonymous letter received by the committee in 1998 said that "reports of a paedophilia nature" could emerge about Savile. I'm really not sure what it takes for you to think there was a cover up. They knew.
    I'll grant you that there were suspicions, and I'll grant you that a better police force and prosecutor would have delved deeper than they did. But you can't conclude from rumours that "everybody knew." It's hindsight bias in the first degree.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  51. #2076
    On another note, apparently there was a workplace accident nearby a couple of days ago. You'd think this goes without saying, but if you ever find yourself using a wood chipper, and something is jammed in there, don't stamp on the obstacle in an attempt to free it. You might find your foot distributed around the nearby vicinity.

    No doubt somebody else will get the blame for it. Obviously he wasn't told in training how insane it would be. Someone's getting fired and sued for that monumental act of individual stupidity.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  52. #2077
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  53. #2078
    It's funny really because when something gruesome like that happens, not many people know about it at first. Everyone knows something has happened, because there's a line of cop cars, a couple of ambulances, and an air ambulance at the scene, and they're calling it a "serious incident". But they don't want to tell you what happened because it's not very nice to think about. So instead people think about what else could have happened, and when the words "wood chipper" get around, people think of much more gruesome things than losing a foot, you think instead of someone losing both legs and flailing their arms around before getting completely shitmixed. You'd think they're better off just saying what really happened.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 02-10-2022 at 07:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  54. #2079
    Liz Truss, UK foreign secretary and frontrunner to replace the Unkempt One as PM:

    "The UK will never recognise Russian sovereignty over Rostov and Voronezh."

    Both cities have been Russian for hundreds of years.

    No wonder Blojo is still in his job when this is the competition.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  55. #2080
    She also said the UK is "offering extra support into our Baltic allies across the Black Sea". Clearly having a GCSE grade C or above in geography is not necessary to be Foreign Secretary.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  56. #2081
    She also talked over the translator at her meeting with the Russian emissary, and had to be told to wait her turn. Totally qualified.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  57. #2082
    Apparently one of the opportunities Brexit has given us is the freedom to make it impossible for our manufacturers to compete with imports.

    https://www.export.org.uk/news/59552...t-red-tape.htm

    Can't wait to see what he comes up with next. But really, I'm surprised we need a Minister for Brexit Opportunities. Weren't all the opportunities explored and understood before we had the referendum?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  58. #2083
    Captain Cosplay at it again. Look out Putin!

    https://twitter.com/RobBfromDerby/st...16749734862857
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  59. #2084
    Times like these make me glad I live in the SE. Only 40 mph winds expected by the time the storm gets here.

    https://twitter.com/putasinghonit/st...49347470954503
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  60. #2085
    ^ that clip is from last year in London (Barking tornado), which, as I'm sure you're aware, is in the SE.

    But yeah, you wouldn't want to be on the Bristol Channel this evening.

    I'm in Shropshire by the Welsh border, the forecast here is severe gales, but you wouldn't believe it right now. It's very calm outside. That's gonna change in the next hour or two.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  61. #2086
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    ^ that clip is from last year in London (Barking tornado), which, as I'm sure you're aware, is in the SE.
    W and NW tend to get the worst of the shit weather. 40 mph winds is shit enough thanks.

    Where I grew up, we had a weather phenomenon where the wind would whip down over the mountains and with no trees on the prairies to speak of, it got pretty windy. 100km+ was pretty common, like 2 or 3 times a year. Fuck me I don't miss that.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm in Shropshire by the Welsh border, the forecast here is severe gales, but you wouldn't believe it right now. It's very calm outside. That's gonna change in the next hour or two.
    I'm sure if there's any damage, Boris will be right there to help out by staging a photo op of himself in a rescue vehicle. Unless he's on holidays of course.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  62. #2087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Where I grew up, we had a weather phenomenon where the wind would whip down over the mountains and with no trees on the prairies to speak of, it got pretty windy. 100km+ was pretty common, like 2 or 3 times a year. Fuck me I don't miss that.
    Holy shit that's no joke. That's well within the small tornado range of wind speeds.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  63. #2088
    It's so windy you can't even hear what the guy in the video is saying.



    Fun fact: That bridge in the background was built in 1909, and is the highest and longest trestle bridge in the world. #MBGA
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  64. #2089
    172km/h measured on Isle of Wight.

    Oh and the SE is now included in the "red zone", so poop's might want to batten down the hatches.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  65. #2090
    W and NW tend to get the worst of the shit weather. 40 mph winds is shit enough thanks.
    This is definitely true, these systems tend to come in along the jet stream off the Atlantic, but they can very easily move along the English Channel so the SE does get a battering regularly enough.

    Where I grew up, we had a weather phenomenon where the wind would whip down over the mountains and with no trees on the prairies to speak of, it got pretty windy. 100km+ was pretty common, like 2 or 3 times a year. Fuck me I don't miss that.
    Did you get the Pineapple Express too? That shit looks brutal.

    I'm sure if there's any damage, Boris will be right there to help out by staging a photo op of himself in a rescue vehicle.
    You know every PM does this, right? I can remember Tony Blair standing on the bridge in Bewdley during flooding, he got heckled by the locals.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  66. #2091
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #2092
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    172km/h measured on Isle of Wight.

    Oh and the SE is now included in the "red zone", so poop's might want to batten down the hatches.
    Nah I'm good. I live in the hills with lots of forest around. Max wind predicted to be 45 mph. My bin is on its side, but hasn't got airborne.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  68. #2093
    I'm just north of the westernmost tip of red warning 1, it's not that windy outside but it's raining. The storm is currently centred over South Wales, so it's heading my way. I expect the wind to pick up in an hour or so.

    *edit - easternmost tip. Oops.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 02-18-2022 at 06:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  69. #2094
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Nah I'm good. I live in the hills with lots of forest around. Max wind predicted to be 45 mph. My bin is on its side, but hasn't got airborne.
    Forest is good when storms hit in late winter or spring, bad when they hit in late autumn and the trees are still in full leaf.

    Sounds like you live in a nice place. The SE is heavily populated so you're doing well to be surrounded by forest.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  70. #2095
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Did you get the Pineapple Express too? That shit looks brutal.
    Nope, that's on the coast. We were about 1000 mi inland, on the other side of the Rockies.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  71. #2096
    So Edmonton area? You seem to be in the same area as someone I follow on YouTube, dude called Steve who likes stealth camping. He's awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  72. #2097
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Forest is good when storms hit in late winter or spring, bad when they hit in late autumn and the trees are still in full leaf.

    Sounds like you live in a nice place. The SE is heavily populated so you're doing well to be surrounded by forest.
    On that map, I'm about halfway down the slope to the left of the number 2. Just on the border of the red area, SW of Guildford.

    40 mph right now, I suppose we could get some gusts, so maybe shouldn't be counting my chickens just yet.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  73. #2098
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So Edmonton area? You seem to be in the same area as someone I follow on YouTube, dude called Steve who likes stealth camping. He's awesome.
    Closer to Calgary, about 250 mi. S of Edmonton. I did my PhD in Edmonton, great place for six months of the year, but basically frozen solid the other six. My first year there it got down to -20C in October.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  74. #2099
    This is nerve wracking. Imagine being on one of those planes. I'd be shitting myself lol.

    https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/sta...29621425442827
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  75. #2100
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    On that map, I'm about halfway down the slope to the left of the number 2. Just on the border of the red area, SW of Guildford.

    40 mph right now, I suppose we could get some gusts, so maybe shouldn't be counting my chickens just yet.
    Not actually been to this region of the country, but it looks nice. Closest I've been to this area is Winchester or Portsmouth. On the rare occasion I go to London, I approach through Milton Keynes, so miss your area by quite a distance.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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