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*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

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  1. #226
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  2. #227
    Who cares? A poll is not a referendum, we already had one of those and got a democratic result.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #228
    The replies in that tweet are wonderful. People "frightened" of being a British citizen, while shouting about Scottish independence. Why is it ok for Scotland to say "bollocks to the UK" but it's not ok for the UK to say "bollocks to the EU"?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #229
    It is ok for Scotland to say that, just like it's ok for the UK to say it to the EU.

    If Scotland would rather be part of the EU than of the UK, I can't blame them.

    Just out of curiosity, are you actually starting to see what a royal fuckery Brexit is going to be? No deal with the EU at all by the looks of it, none with the US because of the Internal Market Bill, still only that one trade deal so far with Japan afaik, 7000 space underwater lorry park on a flood plain in Kent, food and medicine shortages anticipated, Scotland looking ready to bail with possibly N. Ireland right behind them. Even the fishermen are getting pissed off.

    Just wondering how much cognitive dissonance it's going to take.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  5. #230
    I'm still not going to change my vote if given the chance. This was never about economics first. Democracy is too important. And I'm not talking about the will of the people being respected. That of course is important, but democratic control is critical for a modern society. We do not have that with the EU. How do we democratically hold them to account? Wait for another referendum? It seems like democracy is a sacrifice people are willing to make in order to have cheap imports and the ability to work in France, even though most of us don't want to.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #231
    And by the way, if this does turn out bad, then I blame the Tories, not Brexit voters. I think we agree this has been managed horribly. That doesn't mean we'd be better off remaining. That means we need a better government. If the masses agree, then the Tories will be held to democratic account in due course. That's the democracy we don't have with the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #232
    You had a vote in the European Parliament mate.

    What would a different gov't have done better? Found a nice dry place to put the lorry park? The Irish problem was always going to be intractable, and the EU was never going to give us a plum deal after we left.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  8. #233
    You had a vote in the European Parliament mate.
    Is this form of democracy satisfactory to you? It isn't to me. Sending a MEP is not holding them to account. We sent Farage ffs, all he could do was wave his cock about and help himself to free beer. He didn't change policy.

    In theory, there is nothing stopping you or I creating a political party in the UK, entering an election, and winning. We can vote for a different party with different policy. We can hold the UK government to account, once every five years. That is a brand of democracy I find acceptable, even if the way we go about it is heavily flawed.

    What we can't do is create our own economic and political union, and go to the polls against the EU, asking voters to choose between our policies. There is no way to hold the EU to account, democratically or legally. We can send MEPs, but what are they actually doing? Nige creamed off a salary for taking the piss. We sent the most anti-EU person we could find that doesn't swear, and sent him there. He had 1/750th of a say in policy. If we sent 45 Nigel Farages, we still have, what, 6%? Holy fuck that was actually accurate, seriously I guessed that then checked. I digress. The entire population of the UK is incapable of changing EU policy. And so this is not a form of democracy I find acceptable.

    idk what a different govt could do. Negotiate with good faith? That's easier said than done. It's impossible to do if the other party is not doing so. It's clear to me that neither the EU nor the UK have acted in good faith throughout these negotiations. Maybe this was how it had to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #234
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    What are you on about with the whole, "This isn't democracy" thing?

    Your chosen boundary of who you consider "your" people don't constitute a majority, and can't bully the rest of the people, so that's not democracy? Does any other single nation in the EU have that privilege? No? So each nation is on a basically equal footing with roughly equivalent ability to unilaterally strong-arm the rest of the union?

    And this is NOT democracy to you?


    Like... should all 50 states get all up in arms because they can't strong-arm the US federal gov't? Is that democracy to you?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  10. #235
    Does any other single nation in the EU have that privilege? No?
    Indeed, no single country in the EU can hold the EU to democratic account.

    And this is NOT democracy to you?
    No. It's a single-party system. There is no alternative.

    Like... should all 50 states get all up in arms because they can't strong-arm the US federal gov't? Is that democracy to you?
    At least in USA you have two parties to choose from. If you don't like the current govt, you can vote for the other option. Still not great, but it's better than the EU. If one single state feels that being a member of the USA is not in their interests, then perhaps they should leave the union.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Indeed, no single country in the EU can hold the EU to democratic account.



    No. It's a single-party system. There is no alternative.



    At least in USA you have two parties to choose from. If you don't like the current govt, you can vote for the other option. Still not great, but it's better than the EU. If one single state feels that being a member of the USA is not in their interests, then perhaps they should leave the union.
    What are you even talking about here?

    There's 27 countries in the EU parliament, hence 27 separate interests being represented. That's more than 2 parties in the US, it's more than the 1 party you made up , and its' more than we have even in the UK even if u include the Greens and the Loony Monster Party.

    If there was only one party, they'd never have to vote on anything 'cause they'd all vote the same way. That's not what happens. Ergo, you're full of shit. Again.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  12. #237
    There's 27 countries in the EU parliament, hence 27 separate interests being represented.
    You think the EU is a 27-party system? Wow.

    By your logic, the Tories aren't a single party, they are 107 different parties.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #238
    If the Labour party suddenly said they were merging with the Tories, and voters now had a choice between Dave of the Tories and Steve of the Tories, does that equal democracy to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    By your logic, the Tories aren't a single party, they are 107 different parties.

    By yours, every country in the EU votes the same way every time.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  15. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    By yours, every country in the EU votes the same way every time.
    Not at all. That's just how you're choosing to interpret my comments rather than accept the democratic problems the EU has.

    I don't think you understand what a political union is.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #241
    I'm contesting your idea that there's "one party" that votes as a monolith in the EU parliament. There's not. It's indistinguishable from any other parliamentary democracy in that it has representatives from each part of the EU, based on population. You had a MEP who represents you in the EU just like you have an MP who represents you in the UK.

    So unless you think the UK also only has "one party" because they all belong to the same country, then I guess we agree you were talking shit, got caught, and now want to change the subject.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 11-18-2020 at 05:26 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  17. #242
    7000 jobs gone? Well hey, it's all worth it in some way that no-one can really articulate.

    https://twitter.com/PGMcNamara/statu...41262255755266
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  18. #243
    You've completely missed the point. In the UK, you can vote for the Tories, Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, UKIP, Monster Raving Looney Party, a man and his dog. Whoever wins the election forms a government.

    In the EU, winning MEPs do not go and form a government. They join an already existing one.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  19. #244
    You still haven't explained how it's a one-party system. Because it's not.

    I think people in the UK know when they're electing Farage or some libdem guy as an MEP what each one is representing.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  20. #245
    Wow, they really are pushing this whole MEGA thing. Wonder how they're going to pay for that with the pandemic and Brexit double-whammy to the economy.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKBN27Y314
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  21. #246
    I really can't believe you're this stupid.

    It's a one-party system because no matter how we vote, it's the same policy, the same ideology.

    There is only one party... the EU party. The MEPs are members of this party. They might be Tories or Labour in the UK, they might be whatever in France, but the EU is a political union, which means they are united in the same political objective. They share a central government. That government is the EU, and will always be the EU, no matter how the people of Europe vote. You can't vote them out like you can vote out the Tories.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  22. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Wow, they really are pushing this whole MEGA thing. Wonder how they're going to pay for that with the pandemic and Brexit double-whammy to the economy.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKBN27Y314
    Easy. By borrowing money and then hiding the debt in the covid legacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I really can't believe you're this stupid.

    It's a one-party system because no matter how we vote, it's the same policy, the same ideology.

    There is only one party... the EU party. The MEPs are members of this party. They might be Tories or Labour in the UK, they might be whatever in France, but the EU is a political union, which means they are united in the same political objective. They share a central government. That government is the EU, and will always be the EU, no matter how the people of Europe vote. You can't vote them out like you can vote out the Tories.
    You might wanna read up a bit:
    https://europa.eu/european-union/abo...er%20countries.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  24. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    You might wanna read up a bit:
    Ong? Read up?

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  25. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Easy. By borrowing money and then hiding the debt in the covid legacy.
    £4m a year for the Space Army. We will be taking America's place as the world's laughing stock. #MEGA
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  26. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Thanks for this.

    "governments defend their own country's national interests in the Council of the European Union."
    "
    The European Council sets the EU's overall political direction – but has no powers to pass laws."

    So this is very much different to voting in a party that has the power to pass laws, assuming they have a parliamentary majority (or cross party support). The Council do not pass laws, they merely propose them. The laws need to be passed by the Commission and the Parliament.

    Also, the Court of Justice is a problem. Courts are sup[posed to be independent of the government. That is (mostly) the case here, with notable exceptions (Julian Assange).

    If you're trying to demonstrate that the EU is an form of acceptable democracy, you've failed.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #252
    Perhaps calling the EU a one-party system isn't accurate. Perhaps it's better to call them a coalition of 100 different parties (or whatever) that can never pass laws without lobbying and backhanders.

    A coalition of two is bad enough if they don't have similar ideology.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #253
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If you're trying to demonstrate that the EU is an form of acceptable democracy, you've failed.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    Me? No, I'm merely demonstrating there's no "EU party" in any sense of the word, the MEPs who comprise the EU Parliament are not "united in the same political objective", and the EU "government" acts in a very similar fashion as the federal government in the US. There are federal laws which in theory override local policies, but those are often contended. The majority of the power remains with the states, who have their own legislation.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  29. #254
    and the EU "government" acts in a very similar fashion as the federal government in the US.
    Is it ok for me to reject an American-style federal system?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  30. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Is it ok for me to reject an American-style federal system?
    Oh absolutely, go for it. Doesn't change though that

    I guess we agree you were talking shit, got caught, and now want to change the subject.
  31. #256
    Hey look, some jobs that were created because of Brexit!

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-europe-india

    #MEGA
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  32. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Oh absolutely, go for it. Doesn't change though that
    I'm not talking shit. I do not like the EU's method of democracy. It's not an acceptable system to me. It's in effect a single party system because there is nobody we can vote for to replace the EU, unlike at home where we can vote the Tories out. That isn't shit, is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Hey look, some jobs that were created because of Brexit!

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-europe-india

    #MEGA
    Wow, this is new, companies outsourcing call centres and stuff like that to places like India.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  34. #259
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  35. #260
    You're not missing much.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  36. #261
    This guy not aware there's a pandemic going on apparently. #MEGA

    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/stat...35720610783233
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  37. #262
    lol I appreciate you're probably right, that the pandemic is the cause of the collapse of car sales, but I can guarantee that if anyone uses the pandemic to explain economic problems that you prefer to associate with Brexit, you'd take an opposing view.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  38. #263
    Hey poop, I appreciate you're no fan of Boris, but what about Trudeau?

    I saw two bits of footage from him, one saying that claims of a "great reset" were a conspiracy theory, another say the pandemic is a great opportunity for... drumroll please... a reset.

    Tell me you think he's a clown too.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    lol I appreciate you're probably right, that the pandemic is the cause of the collapse of car sales,
    Wait, you mean it didn't happen because we were in the EU for 40+ years?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    but I can guarantee that if anyone uses the pandemic to explain economic problems that you prefer to associate with Brexit, you'd take an opposing view.
    I don't think anyone is blaming Brexit for pub and restaurant sales being down, if that's what you mean.

    Edit: But if we wait long enough, someone will blame it on still being in the EU.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 11-24-2020 at 08:19 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  40. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Hey poop, I appreciate you're no fan of Boris, but what about Trudeau?

    I saw two bits of footage from him, one saying that claims of a "great reset" were a conspiracy theory, another say the pandemic is a great opportunity for... drumroll please... a reset.

    Tell me you think he's a clown too.
    He's a bit of a weenie and obviously he's a politician so he's fos and following the wind, but he's nowhere near on the level of Boris when it comes to self-contradiction.

    On the scale of shitty politicians you'd have to go past quite a few of the current Tory cabinet before you'd find one that isn't worse than Trudeau. Sunak seems to be about the only one of them that isn't a complete tosser, and that's just the ones I can think of: Hancock, Gove, Cruella Patel, I'm no fan of any of them.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  41. #266
    I don't think there's a single politician I can say I'm a fan of. I kinda like Farage, but only because I found his comments at the EU highly amusing. But he's still just another liar. I definitely do not trust him. Politicians are cunts, the lot of them.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  42. #267
    Actually I like Anne Widdecombe. She's no liar, she gives zero fucks about offending sensitive people. She's a cunt too, but the kind of cunt I can at least have some respect for. An honest cunt.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #268
    You might like Andrea Jenkins too then.

    https://twitter.com/andreajenkyns/st...35372422541313
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  44. #269
    "global powerhouse"

    Nope, not a fan. Believe it or not, I am very much in favour of us winding our necks in when it comes to international affairs. That's why I don't give a fuck about "influence" and all that bollocks. I do find it amusing that the left say we'll lose "influence" while also despising our foreign policy. I'd have thought that loss of influence would be welcomed by the left.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  45. #270
    Uh no, you want influence. What you don't want is to go around starting wars with third world countries like Blair did, or selling arms to S.A.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  46. #271
    Influence is for arrogant people who want to feel important.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  47. #272
    Pro-Brexit Daily Mail outraged that EU rules will apply to the UK once it leaves the EU. Arrrrghghggh! MEGA!

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...vel-rules.html
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  48. #273
    Oh no, not the fishermen too!!



    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  49. #274
    Sick Brexit burn at the end of this.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  50. #275
    "Easiest trade deal in history." #MEGA.


    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  51. #276
    Wait, I thought they need us more than we need them. Why is Boris flying off to Brussels to beg for a deal?

    https://twitter.com/MaximilianJans2/...22298682937344
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  52. #277
    Free dinner.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  53. #278
    ..and he gets to avoid the lineups at the airports starting in Jan.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  54. #279
    Did you see that imported brie is going to cost 40% more? That's great news for British cheese makers.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  55. #280
    Everything's coming up unicorns.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  56. #281
    This is surprising, seeing as this is the same guy who recited Kipling (a notorious jingo racist) while he was foreign secretary in a temple in Malaya.

    #MEGA

    https://twitter.com/SeanRampton/stat...70163913940992
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  57. #282
    On the one hand, I'm annoyed he's not taking this seriously. On the other, I can't pretend I'd show them any respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  58. #283
    People responsible for a no-deal Brexit:

    1.Brexiters

    2. The UK government

    3. Remainers.

    4. The EU.

    5. French fishermen.

    6. Who cares? A no-deal Brexit will be great! #MEGA
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 12-12-2020 at 05:37 AM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  59. #284
    I acknowledge my responsibility for a no-deal Brexit. I knew full well that this was a possibility when I voted, and was still happy to vote for it. I'd have preferred a mutually beneficial trade deal, but a no-deal Brexit was the default, and is preferable to remaining. In my opinion, of course. I respect other peoples' opinion, unless they want to overthrow a democratic result, naturally.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  60. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I acknowledge my responsibility for a no-deal Brexit. I knew full well that this was a possibility when I voted, and was still happy to vote for it.
    Did you really? Did you understand what a no-deal would entail (be honest)? And, when you put the loss of jobs, food and medicine shortages, restrictions on travel, inflation, estrangement from our allies, and possibility of secession of Scotland and NI from the UK all together on one side of the scale, what is it on the benefits side of the scale that makes you feel that this all going to be worth it?

    And if you mention fish, Stilton cheese, the German car industry, or the EU Imperial Army again I am going to stop taking you seriously at all.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'd have preferred a mutually beneficial trade deal, but a no-deal Brexit was the default, and is preferable to remaining. In my opinion, of course. I respect other peoples' opinion, unless they want to overthrow a democratic result, naturally.
    And how much national misery and for how long will it take for you to be convinced that perhaps the outcome of that democratic result is worth revisiting?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  61. #286
    I guess we see why they needed to give that big boost to the defense budget in the middle of a pandemic. #MEGA

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/n...rmen-x35kbkbh6
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  62. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    what is it on the benefits side of the scale that makes you feel that this all going to be worth it?
    I'm guessing some abstract feeling of sovereignty.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  63. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    Did you really? Did you understand what a no-deal would entail (be honest)?
    I understood that it would mean potential tariffs, and understood that it would require an economic adaptation, which may well have come with a period of economic downturn. Of course I didn't expect such a economic shock to coincide with a pandemic, which will cause a much larger economic shock than anything Brexit could do.

    and possibility of secession of Scotland and NI from the UK all together
    If and when this happens, the same people who are screaming at people for saying "sovereignty" will be making the same arguments, only avoiding use of that word. People will scream that Scotland has a right to self determination (which they do), while ignoring that this very right to self determination is precisely why we voted to leave the EU.

    The EU is a superstate. Whether you acknowledge that or not will not change my mind. I do not want the UK to be a member of a larger superstate. Just like many Scots don't want to be in the UK, because England dominates their interests. In the EU, the collective interests of others (primarily France and Germany) dominate our interests.

    I understand why Scotland wants to leave. They want to run their own affairs without the English meddling. Devolution has allowed them to be able to do so to a reasonably large scale, but ultimately they can be overruled, and things like foreign policy and economic policy are dominated by Westminster, ie England.

    And if you mention fish, Stilton cheese, the German car industry, or the EU Imperial Army again I am going to stop taking you seriously at all.
    These seem to be things you think about more than I do. These are small parts of an economy. As for the "Imperial Army", they have talked about it, which is enough for me to be happy I grabbed the one chance I'll ever have.



    This is Merkel, not some random EU nobody. This is one of the most powerful people in the world. When Merkel is saying that they should have an army, believe that it's on their agenda. Whether it'll happen or not will largely depend on how strongly the public oppose it, but they clearly want it.

    How big such an army would be, and if it replaces armies of nation states or simply compliment them, I can't possibly know. A peacekeeping force isn't a scary idea, but we already have one... the UN. So what's the point? Why are they even considering it?

    In 2016 this was a conspiracy theory, the ramblings of paranoia. In 2018 it's being promoted by Merkel.

    And how much national misery and for how long will it take for you to be convinced that perhaps the outcome of that democratic result is worth revisiting?
    It'll be almost impossible to even measure the economic impact, since it will be dwarfed by covid. The next decade will be very difficult for most countries. So idk. I don't think we can even begin to have the conversation seriously until 2030. Before then it's just unhelpful noise. It's not like they'd let us back in next year if we begged them.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  64. #289
    ...
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 12-12-2020 at 01:52 PM. Reason: double posted for some reason
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  65. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I understood that it would mean potential tariffs, and understood that it would require an economic adaptation, which may well have come with a period of economic downturn. Of course I didn't expect such a economic shock to coincide with a pandemic, which will cause a much larger economic shock than anything Brexit could do.
    Arguing that Brexit is not as bad as a pandemic is super weak.

    We've never been short of food because of covid. I'd much rather run out of asswipe knowing more will be in the stores in a couple of weeks than run out of fresh fruit and veg and be relying on Boris to get his thumb out to fix it.

    The pandemic was also unavoidable. A no-deal Brexit was avoidable.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If and when this happens, the same people who are screaming at people for saying "sovereignty" will be making the same arguments, only avoiding use of that word. People will scream that Scotland has a right to self determination (which they do), while ignoring that this very right to self determination is precisely why we voted to leave the EU.
    That wasn't my point, whether people have a right to leave the UK or not. We both agree they do. Who cares what other people say? The point is the smaller we get the weaker and more isolated we become.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    In the EU, the collective interests of others (primarily France and Germany) dominate our interests.
    This might be a valid point, except that their economic interests (which they mainly promote by pooling their power thru membership in a protectionist trading bloc which at the same time allows free trade among its members) are pretty much identical to ours. Certainly enough so that leaving the EU will punish our interests more than theirs.

    Disagreements over minor issues like fishing rights are petty compared to the overall benefits, like being able to sell our fish in the EU, not to mention our cars and financial services.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It'll be almost impossible to even measure the economic impact, since it will be dwarfed by covid. The next decade will be very difficult for most countries. So idk. I don't think we can even begin to have the conversation seriously until 2030. Before then it's just unhelpful noise. It's not like they'd let us back in next year if we begged them.
    The covid shock will be short term, no-one expects a great depression to result. Once the vaccine is widely distributed things will pretty much go back to pre-covid days, with a few exceptions.

    I think a safe comparison would be to measure our economic performance compared to other countries that have suffered similarly due to covid, starting from 2021 forwards. If we subtract the difference, it will be fairly easy how much worse things are because of Brexit than they otherwise would have been. Of course, the average person won't be able to grasp this, and I have virtually no hope that a convinced Brexiter will accept any arguments along these lines no matter how strong the evidence is. They will just stick their fingers in their ears and shout #MEGA.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  66. #291
    Arguing that Brexit is not as bad as a pandemic is super weak.
    I'm making the point there are more important economic problems right now.

    We're not going to run out of food. Stop being hysterical. Not because of Brexit, not because of covid. We might run out of brie, or Choco Libniz, but we're not going to run out of anything that comes from Brazil, or any of the many non-European places much of our produce already comes from.

    The point is the smaller we get the weaker and more isolated we become.
    This is a matter of opinion. There are subjective terms. Weaker? If we're forced to buy British because it's now cheaper than imports, that is good news for our producers. Where there are tariffs there are opportunities for those not subject to such tariffs, such as those trading in internal markets. So while you think we're weaker, I think we're stronger. And isolated? Again, subjective. We were already isolated, our "influence" has been in decline for many decades, throughout our entire membership of the EU and EEC. We've been isolated from Europe through our foreign policy for a long time. So it's kind of meaningless to talk about being "isolated" when everybody already hates us.

    except that their economic interests are pretty much identical to ours
    Not at all. Not. At. All.

    If this were true, then we would have equally performing economies. But we don't. The British economy has been sluggish compared to Germany, pretty much since the end of WWII. Somehow we paid a higher economic price for that war, and they are still stronger than we are. They have bought up a large part of our car industry which has had positive economic benefit for Germany at the cost of British jobs. So no, our economic interests are not shared.

    The covid shock will be short term, no-one expects a great depression to result.
    This seems naive. Covid is global. Brexit is not. Brexit won't cause a global recession, but covid will, and that of course impacts upon every economy in the world. I think a great depression is exactly what is coming, and is probably expected by those who work in finance. idk, but I can't see how we avoid it. Every country has been affected.

    The vaccine will get things going again, but many people have lost their jobs, much money has been picked from the magic money tree to keep things ticking along, we'll be paying for this for at least a decade in the form of austerity.

    Brexit is something business has been expecting for four years now. Contingency plans would have been made. There is opportunity here as well as risk.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I'm making the point there are more important economic problems right now.

    We're not going to run out of food. Stop being hysterical. Not because of Brexit, not because of covid. We might run out of brie, or Choco Libniz, but we're not going to run out of anything that comes from Brazil, or any of the many non-European places much of our produce already comes from.
    I explained to you before that our current trade deal with Brazil is through the EU trade deal with Mercosur. After Jan. 1 it ceases to exist - poof. So unless Japan has some bananas to sell us, we're going to have shortages, and with them inflation. And not just bananas, but everything that grows outside the UK in winter that we currently import from the EU.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If we're forced to buy British because it's now cheaper than imports, that is good news for our producers.
    Only if they couldn't sell those products for a better price outside the UK. That's the only way it's better for them.

    In general, restricting markets for producers is not a winning economic strategy. That's why countries form trading blocs and negotiate trade deals with other countries in the first place.

    It kinda helps to have options for where you can sell your goods.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Where there are tariffs there are opportunities for those not subject to such tariffs, such as those trading in internal markets.
    Nonsense. They always had zero tariffs in the internal markets. That's nothing new. THe new bit is that they will have a harder time selling to external markets like the soon-to-be external market of the EU.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So while you think we're weaker, I think we're stronger.
    You haven't explained how, except thru a spurious argument about how being hamstrung in external markets will somehow benefit our producers.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    And isolated? Again, subjective. We were already isolated, our "influence" has been in decline for many decades, throughout our entire membership of the EU and EEC. We've been isolated from Europe through our foreign policy for a long time. So it's kind of meaningless to talk about being "isolated" when everybody already hates us.
    Oh well, may as well jump right off the cliff then!





    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If this were true, then we would have equally performing economies.
    That does not follow from what I said at all. Countries in a trading bloc don't merge their economies. If that were true, Mexico would be as well off as the US and Canada by now.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    They have bought up a large part of our car industry which has had positive economic benefit for Germany at the cost of British jobs. So no, our economic interests are not shared.
    Another argument I've already demolished. How many people are employed in the car manufacturing in the UK now and how many will be losing their jobs after Brexit? If leaving the EU is supposed to help us, one might think it would not involve massive losses of jobs.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    This seems naive. Covid is global. Brexit is not. Brexit won't cause a global recession, but covid will, and that of course impacts upon every economy in the world. I think a great depression is exactly what is coming, and is probably expected by those who work in finance. idk, but I can't see how we avoid it. Every country has been affected.

    The vaccine will get things going again, but many people have lost their jobs, much money has been picked from the magic money tree to keep things ticking along, we'll be paying for this for at least a decade in the form of austerity.
    Ok maybe that will happen, I don't know. But that doesn't really answer my point. We'll be worse off than other countries who started 2021 in a similar position because of Brexit. But the gov't will blame it all on covid. Or the EU. Or anyone but themselves. That much I am sure of.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Brexit is something business has been expecting for four years now. Contingency plans would have been made. There is opportunity here as well as risk.
    Lol, the gov't is not even prepared. How many customs agents have they hired now? I guarantee you it's not as many as will be needed. The problem is there has been a great deal of uncertainty about whether and what kind of trade arrangements we would have with the EU, and little guidance from the gov't, so it's going to be chaos. Everybone agrees on that who isn't a Tory shill.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  68. #293
    https://twitter.com/WhatNowDoc/statu...14431847768065

    Cliffs:

    English guy to Dutch plant seller: "Hey dude, got some plants to sell me?"

    Dutch guy: "We're out of those now. Also not sure if we can still sell to the UK after Brexit."

    English guy: "Arrrrggghh!! We saved your ass in WWII! MEGA! This is why we're leaving the EU, you ungrateful bastard! Arrrggghghggh!!! I'll never buy from you again!!!! Also, MEGA!!"


    Then English guy posted it on twitter himself so everyone could see what a douche he was.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  69. #294
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  70. #295
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  71. #296
    Arrrgghgghgh! Where are my sunlit uplands???

    https://twitter.com/zacM6/status/1339988825964199937
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  72. #297
    Weds. 16 Dec., Prime Minister's Questions:

    Starmer (leader of opposition): "Infection rates are still going up. We need to do something."

    Boris the Clown: "Waf waf waf. He wants to cancel Christmas everybody!"


    Today, Sat. 19 Dec.:

    Boris: "Christmas is cancelled everyone, sorry about that."
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  73. #298
    Gross incompetence from day one of Boris’ leadership. This Christmas announcement is the final straw for me. He needs to fk all the way off now.

    Turns out when you vote for a blithering idiot, that’s exactly what you get. Who would have thought it?

    Death by a thousand cuts for the economy with the COVID mismanagement. Now let’s finish it off with Brexit.
  74. #299
    I gladly would pay £1k to be able to punch him in the face right now.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Trump until we have all the facts through an inquiry
  75. #300
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    But fishing is saved, right?
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.

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