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*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

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  1. #1

    Default *** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

    Watch the glory of Brexit unfold here!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  2. #2
    Hey Oskar, I bet all you liberal Eurotards are shitting your pants about not having a deal with the UK yet. Right? Right?

    https://twitter.com/AndySpreadbury6/...41357485547526
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  3. #3
    If anyone wants 7 hours of various people being unable to provide a single good reason to Brexit, check this out. (and it's only part 1!!)

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    If anyone wants 7 hours of various people being unable to provide a single good reason to Brexit, check this out. (and it's only part 1!!)

    neat-o!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    neat-o!
    Ong calls in at 4hr 56min
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 09-08-2020 at 03:31 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  6. #6
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    I would follow Brexit more closely, and by that I mean closer than not at all, if I thought it would lead to any significant changes that impact me. I am eying London a little bit... the UK is the most convenient english speaking country for me to move to work atm. But that's more like a 2025 plan, and I'm really not worried that Brexit will be more than a slight inconvenience there.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  7. #7
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    What I don't really get is that it seems that for most people brexit is about stopping immigration somehow, but that to me - based on no information at all I should reiterate, seems like the least likely thing to happen after brexit. Do they want a hermit kingdom? It wasn't that before the EU, so they basically want to get back to something that never was, and on top of that, nobody's going back with you.

    To the few sensible criticisms I've heard from brexiters about the EU I'm like: ok, you got a point, but sometimes when you don't like something about the ship you're on, jumping off is rarely your best option.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  8. #8
    The problem with the EU for me is that it is no longer just a trade bloc, like it was when we joined. It's a political and economic union and not under the democratic control of the British people. Just like Scotland don't approve of effectively being under the democratic control of the English, I don't want to be under the faux-democratic control of German and French people.


    Very few people want to stop immigration. People want to control immigration. Not many people have a problem with Hongkongers coming to the UK, and most people don't have problems with the Polish, Indians, or anyone else that comes here and works, and abides by local law, which includes Islamic people. People do have a problem with cities becoming saturated with unskilled immigrants who rely on state handouts, and yes, people do have a problem with people fleeing France on a boat. Why are they coming to the UK instead of staying in France? Because we're softer, they have more financial incentive. Also, the French aren't quite as friendly to immigrants as we are. The irony, eh? We're painted as the racist guys of Europe, yet immigrants are so desperate to leave France for the UK that they'll risk their lives. We're not nearly as intolerant as most of Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The problem with the EU for me is that it is no longer just a trade bloc, like it was when we joined. It's a political and economic union and not under the democratic control of the British people. Just like Scotland don't approve of effectively being under the democratic control of the English, I don't want to be under the faux-democratic control of German and French people.
    Maybe you should call in to James O'Brien.

    What laws has the EU imposed on you that you feel you'd be better off without? Can you name one?

    And I don't mean imaginary dystopian futures that you envisage, where we somehow get forced to join an Imperial EU Army that rampages over Asia. I mean right now, something that is currently being imposed on us by the French and Germans.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Very few people want to stop immigration. People want to control immigration. Not many people have a problem with Hongkongers coming to the UK, and most people don't have problems with the Polish, Indians, or anyone else that comes here and works, and abides by local law, which includes Islamic people. People do have a problem with cities becoming saturated with unskilled immigrants who rely on state handouts, and yes, people do have a problem with people fleeing France on a boat. Why are they coming to the UK instead of staying in France? Because we're softer, they have more financial incentive. Also, the French aren't quite as friendly to immigrants as we are. The irony, eh? We're painted as the racist guys of Europe, yet immigrants are so desperate to leave France for the UK that they'll risk their lives. We're not nearly as intolerant as most of Europe.
    Did you know the UK makes it own immigration law? The EU does not force us to take unemployed immigrants, that's our choice to make. How does leaving the EU make any difference here?



    And here's a more general question: How is leaving the EU going to make your life any better?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    People do have a problem with cities becoming saturated with unskilled immigrants who rely on state handouts,
    Presumably by "people" here you're referring to yourself. I guess the irony of a guy relying on state handouts complaining about other people relying on state handouts is lost on you.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Why are they coming to the UK instead of staying in France? Because we're softer, they have more financial incentive. Also, the French aren't quite as friendly to immigrants as we are. The irony, eh? We're painted as the racist guys of Europe, yet immigrants are so desperate to leave France for the UK that they'll risk their lives. We're not nearly as intolerant as most of Europe.
    Or because some may have come from a french speaking african countries, whereas others may have come from english speaking african countries and they don't enjoy the prospect of communicating in pantomime...
    It's a possibility.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Or because some may have come from a french speaking african countries, whereas others may have come from english speaking african countries and they don't enjoy the prospect of communicating in pantomime...
    It's a possibility.
    Ok, that's fine, I'll accept that maybe it's worth risking the lives of you and your family to live in a safe English-speaking country rather than a safe French-speaking country. So the Nigerians, Ethiopians and Kenyans. So why are Somalians coming here? They speak French. How about Iranians? Syrians? I can understand if it's legal migration, where you have a viable choice, but when you're risking your life on a dinghy, why take that risk when it's between France and the UK?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    Yeah Ong, usually we have to rely on you for all our pearls of wisdom itt.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  14. #14
    What laws has the EU imposed on you that you feel you'd be better off without?
    The caveat "that I'd be better off without" is both subjective and irrelevant. I mean, the enforced VAT on tampons doesn't affect me directly, but it's still unwelcome meddling. Tax is not the concern of an outside body which is not subject to the democratic will of the people.

    Did you know the UK makes it own immigration law? The EU does not force us to take unemployed immigrants, that's our choice to make. How does leaving the EU make any difference here?
    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    By 9 June 2017, 22,504 people were resettled through the quota system, with over 2000 of them being resettled in May alone.[222] All relevant countries participated in the relocation scheme except Austria, Denmark, Czech Republic, Poland, and Hungary,[223] against whom the European commission had consequentially launched sanctions against the Czech Republic, Poland, and Hungary.[224]
    Yeah, I remember them sanctioning Hungary for refusing to submit to the EU immigration policy.

    And here's a more general question: How is leaving the EU going to make your life any better?
    Why does this matter? I don't make democratic decisions based on what makes me better off. If I did, I'd vote Labour because they'd make life easier for lazy fuckers like myself. I make them based on what I think is best for the country. If that's an alien concept to you, I can't help that. I think it's better for us to be in charge of our own affairs. You can sneer about bendy bananas all you like but the regulations imposed by the EU overwhelm small businesses and favour big businesses that can outsource the legal and administrative workload. Regulation stifles competition. Obviously, some sectors require regulation, for example banking. It's the government's job, not an outside body, to find the right balance when it comes to just how free the market is. If they fuck it up, we can vote them out quickly instead of having a long drawn out process that might or might not result in a referendum. This is what I mean about democratic control. What we do with that control is another matter. But it's essential we have it, and with the EU, we don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Yeah, I remember them sanctioning Hungary for refusing to submit to the EU immigration policy.
    If we ever come to a place where we want to emulate Hungary's treatment of refugees, that might become an issue. Thankfully we won't have to worry about that now, as no-one will want to come here! It's a win-win!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Thankfully we won't have to worry about that now, as no-one will want to come here! It's a win-win!
    If no one wants to come here, why are graffiti artists sending boats out to pick up migrants? They seem pretty desperate to come here, regardless of the EU.

    Which regulations are those, specifically?

    I mean, it quickly became apparent you had no intention of discussing this in good faith due to your tone. Your plan is to expose the fact that I don't have a fucking clue what regulations a business has to tie itself up in, it will differ from sector to sector and from market to market. Not only that, but I have no vested interest in spending time perusing the various regulations. I'm not selling tomatoes to France, I don't need to know that shit. If I want to sell them at a local market, I can.

    I mean, I actually just tried to see what regulations I need to read to sell tomatoes to France.
    Basic regulation is 24 pdf files. That's fucking basic regulation.

    Best I can tell, I've got a further 72 files to read through.
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farmi...-vegetables_en
    section - legal basis

    I can't be bothered to sell tomatoes to France.

    Presumably by "people" here you're referring to yourself. I guess the irony of a guy relying on state handouts complaining about other people relying on state handouts is lost on you.

    I mean most people you wrongly assume are racist, ie right wingers. And there's no irony in me being on benefits, since I didn't come here from another country with the sole intention of living off benefits. And the fact you mock me for this exposes a great deal of hypocrisy. I mean, you're clearly fine with your tax going to people from other countries, so stop pretending you have a moral issue with me being on benefits. You can't have it both ways. You're in favour of a soft benefit system.

    Had to look that up 'cause no-one thought to mention that vital point before. Turns out we could have ended the VAT on tampons without leaving the EU. Oh snap!

    Fuck, can I vote again please?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    If no one wants to come here, why are graffiti artists sending boats out to pick up migrants? They seem pretty desperate to come here, regardless of the EU.
    They probably know it's their last chance before we are free from the shackles of the liberal Eurotards and we can start treating refugees like dirt. #MEGA



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean, it quickly became apparent you had no intention of discussing this in good faith due to your tone.
    And yet I keep asking questions and giving you the chance to explain yourself.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Your plan is to expose the fact that I don't have a fucking clue what regulations a business has to tie itself up in, it will differ from sector to sector and from market to market.
    The point was to show that you only have the vaguest reasons for supporting Brexit, reasons that you don't fully understand yourself. You bring up talking points like regulation, immigration, and sovereignty without actually knowing any of the details that would show those talking points to be spurious.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Not only that, but I have no vested interest in spending time perusing the various regulations. I'm not selling tomatoes to France, I don't need to know that shit. If I want to sell them at a local market, I can.

    The National Farmer's Union, who arguably has a bigger stake in this than you, considers the ability to trade unhindered with the EU as vital to its interests, and has expressed a deep concern over the prospect of a no-deal Brexit.

    https://www.nfuonline.com/news/brexi...itish-farming/

    Given how much you care about your countrymen, I'm surprised you're not aware of that.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean, I actually just tried to see what regulations I need to read to sell tomatoes to France.
    Basic regulation is 24 pdf files. That's fucking basic regulation.

    The funny thing about this is you choose a country that's in the EU to export your tomatoes to. So, when we leave the EU, do you think those regulations would no longer apply to someone trying to export tomatoes to France?

    I'll give you a hint: The answer is the regulations for export to the EU post-Brexit will be those 24 pages plus whatever else gets added after Brexit.

    So yeah, Brexit definitely won't make it easier to export tomatoes, or anything else, to the EU.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I can't be bothered to sell tomatoes to France.
    Thank God your livelihood doesn't depend on it then.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean most people you wrongly assume are racist, ie right wingers. And there's no irony in me being on benefits, since I didn't come here from another country with the sole intention of living off benefits. And the fact you mock me for this exposes a great deal of hypocrisy. I mean, you're clearly fine with your tax going to people from other countries, so stop pretending you have a moral issue with me being on benefits. You can't have it both ways. You're in favour of a soft benefit system.
    I don't have a moral issue with you being on benefits. I've never argued to cut the benefit system. I have a moral issue with one's country of birth being a criteria for their receiving benefits or not receiving benefits.

    I'm starting to think that the reason this worries you is because you think they'll someday cut out benefits even for you, and that that movement will gain traction the more people there are receiving benefits.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Fuck, can I vote again please?
    Yeah, in about 5 years when it becomes crystal clear even to the most stubborn Brexiter that this was a huge mistake.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    ...the regulations imposed by the EU overwhelm small businesses and favour big businesses that can outsource the legal and administrative workload.
    Which regulations are those, specifically?

    And more generally, what makes you think we're more competent at regulating banks than the EU is?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Why does this matter? I don't make democratic decisions based on what makes me better off. If I did, I'd vote Labour because they'd make life easier for lazy fuckers like myself. I make them based on what I think is best for the country. If that's an alien concept to you, I can't help that. I think it's better for us to be in charge of our own affairs. You can sneer about bendy bananas all you like but the regulations imposed by the EU overwhelm small businesses and favour big businesses that can outsource the legal and administrative workload. Regulation stifles competition. Obviously, some sectors require regulation, for example banking. It's the government's job, not an outside body, to find the right balance when it comes to just how free the market is. If they fuck it up, we can vote them out quickly instead of having a long drawn out process that might or might not result in a referendum. This is what I mean about democratic control. What we do with that control is another matter. But it's essential we have it, and with the EU, we don't.
    In a democracy; if everyone votes in accordance with what is best for them and those that directly depend on them, would the results of said election not be the absolute best outcome for most? Literally. I think this is the most correct use of "Literally" possible.

    Also in a democracy; what you THINK is the best for the country does not necessarily mean it actually factually IS the best for the country. But you do have YOUR OWN lot in your hands, and can directly make A DECISION THAT DOES BENEFIT YOU the easiest, right?
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  20. #20
    So VAT on tampons is the first thing that comes to mind as a valid reason to leave the world's largest trading bloc. Good to see you have things in clear perspective.

    And since you're so worried about a foreign influence on your countrymen's well-being (not your own, obviously, you're completely unselfish), how happy are you about the economic hit that's coming to your fellow countrymen? Do you think the average Brit will be able to make it up by all the money they save on tampons (presumably the females will be sharing their savings with their male partners where possible)?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    So VAT on tampons is the first thing that comes to mind as a valid reason to leave the world's largest trading bloc. Good to see you have things in clear perspective.
    Had to look that up 'cause no-one thought to mention that vital point before. Turns out we could have ended the VAT on tampons without leaving the EU. Oh snap!

    http://infacts.org/we-dont-need-to-l...he-tampon-tax/
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  22. #22
    Ong calls in at to complain about the tampon tax at 12 min. Surprising such a critical issue was one that O'Brien had to go and look up.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Ong calls in at to complain about the tampon tax at 12 min. Surprising such a critical issue was one that O'Brien had to go and look up.

    HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE THERE???
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE THERE???
    I think that's the last one. But a lot of the clips are from 1-2 years ago, so it's possible the person compiling them ended up killing themselves.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  25. #25
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    Even by your own narrow reasoning for why certain people shouldn't have freedom of movement, your argument stops holding up once you look at the bottom line of how much immigrants pay into the system vs how much they take out.
    I can't quickly find a statistic that filters for scary brown people countries, but as a whole immigrants contribute massively more than they take out: https://www.ft.com/content/c49043a8-...9-00144feabdc0

    You're basically saying: I don't care that they pay x billions into the system if they then have the audacity to benefit from the service they pay for with their taxes!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Even by your own narrow reasoning for why certain people shouldn't have freedom of movement, your argument stops holding up once you look at the bottom line of how much immigrants pay into the system vs how much they take out.
    I can't quickly find a statistic that filters for scary brown people countries, but as a whole immigrants contribute massively more than they take out: https://www.ft.com/content/c49043a8-...9-00144feabdc0

    You're basically saying: I don't care that they pay x billions into the system if they then have the audacity to benefit from the service they pay for with their taxes!
    So you're arguing that because immigrant #1 comes here, works, pays taxes and contributes to society, that immigrants #2 and #3 can come here and do nothing.

    My problem is not with people who emigrate legally and with good intent, and then fall on hard times. I'm not saying these people should not have access to the welfare system. I'm saying we should not encourage people to come here for the sole reason of accessing our welfare system. I don't know why you pretend that's such a difficult concept to understand. You deliberately use language like "scary brown people countries" to imply that this is about racism, when that isn't true at all. I don't even think you're being insincere, I think your brain is just hard wired to believe that any opposition to immigration is racism, whether overt or covert.

    I know immigrants as a whole contribute to society. That's why I don't oppose immigration. I oppose illegal immigration and the importing of large numbers of unskilled people.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    So you're arguing that because immigrant #1 comes here, works, pays taxes and contributes to society, that immigrants #2 and #3 can come here and do nothing.

    My problem is not with people who emigrate legally and with good intent, and then fall on hard times. I'm not saying these people should not have access to the welfare system. I'm saying we should not encourage people to come here for the sole reason of accessing our welfare system. I don't know why you pretend that's such a difficult concept to understand. You deliberately use language like "scary brown people countries" to imply that this is about racism, when that isn't true at all. I don't even think you're being insincere, I think your brain is just hard wired to believe that any opposition to immigration is racism, whether overt or covert.

    I know immigrants as a whole contribute to society. That's why I don't oppose immigration. I oppose illegal immigration and the importing of large numbers of unskilled people.
    Sometimes you pay into a system, sometimes you take out of it. Unless you can figure out some kind of Minority Report Precog system, you're not going to know who's going to be profitable and who's not, but the bottom line is: immigrants are a net positive to the economy. The bureaucracy required to sort the maximally profitable is likely completely uneconomical even if you ignore the ethical problems.

    I feel dirty even arguing this because I think people shouldn't be bound to serve capital interests at all. Everyone should get some form of UBI and be free to do whatever they want, because what they want to do is much more likely going to improve their standard of living and the standard of living of their community than if they were to serve the interests of a company that serves its own capital interests and not the people's interests.
    So I don't give a shit if immigrants are good for the fiscal bottom line, but it happens that they are.
    Last edited by oskar; 09-11-2020 at 09:07 AM.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Sometimes you pay into a system, sometimes you take out of it. Unless you can figure out some kind of Minority Report Precog system, you're not going to know who's going to be profitable and who's not, but the bottom line is: immigrants are a net positive to the economy. The bureaucracy required to sort the maximally profitable is likely completely uneconomical even if you ignore the ethical problems.

    I feel dirty even arguing this because I think people shouldn't be bound to serve capital interests at all. Everyone should get some form of UBI and be free to do whatever they want, because what they want to do is much more likely going to improve their standard of living and the standard of living of their community than if they were to serve the interests of a company that serves its own capital interests and not the people's interests.
    So I don't give a shit if immigrants are good for the fiscal bottom line, but it happens that they are.

    Over and above all this is the fact that he hasn't explained how leaving the EU will solve the problem he perceives to exist with all these lazy immigrants. I think he believes that currently anyone in the EU can just show up in the UK and stay as long as they want and not work and the EU forces us to not only accept that, but pay them to do nothing as well.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  29. #29
    Q: What could be even better than Brexit?

    A: Brexit plus a trade war with the EU plus no trade deal with the US!

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    They probably know it's their last chance before we are free from the shackles of the liberal Eurotards and we can start treating refugees like dirt. #MEGA

    I mean, you don't even believe this yourself. I can't be arsed to discuss this with you. It wasn't long ago that I thought oskar was more "deranged left" than you. I was wrong about that. Oskar at least debates in good faith. You don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I mean, you don't even believe this yourself.
    You're right I don't. We're already treating refugees like dirt and we're still in the EU.

    Maybe it's something to do with being able to speak English like Oskar said, or having relatives or other contacts here that they don't have in France. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure they're not being drawn to us because we're in the EU.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  32. #32
    The point was to show that you only have the vaguest reasons for supporting Brexit, reasons that you don't fully understand yourself. You bring up talking points like regulation, immigration, and sovereignty without actually knowing any of the details that would show those talking points to be spurious.

    I don't know if you actually believe that those who oppose the EU need to be experts in the intricacies of regulations. My "vague" reasons for wanting to leave the EU are based on sovereignty and democracy. You don't like to talk about the democratic aspect of the EU because that isn't vague. Instead you focus on shit like regulations, and then gotcha me when I admit I don't give a fuck about researching regulations.

    The National Farmer's Union, who arguably has a bigger stake in this than you, considers the ability to trade unhindered with the EU as vital to its interests, and has expressed a deep concern over the prospect of a no-deal Brexit.

    No politics there, of course. The same farmers voted to leave. Rural areas of England voted overwhelming to leave.

    The funny thing about this is you choose a country that's in the EU to export your tomatoes to. So, when we leave the EU, do you think those regulations would no longer apply to someone trying to export tomatoes to France?

    Later on I'll try to sell tomatoes to Canada.

    I'll give you a hint: The answer is the regulations for export to the EU post-Brexit will be those 24 pages plus whatever else gets added after Brexit.

    Um no, EU regulations do not apply to exports to Canada.

    I have a moral issue with one's country of birth being a criteria for their receiving benefits or not receiving benefits
    Well I have a moral issue with emigrating for the sole reason of accessing benefits. Do you think I have the moral right to move to Japan and access their benefits? I'd like to.

    I'm starting to think that the reason this worries you is because you think they'll someday cut out benefits even for you, and that that movement will gain traction the more people there are receiving benefits.

    Swing and a miss.

    Yeah, in about 5 years when it becomes crystal clear even to the most stubborn Brexiter that this was a huge mistake.

    I doubt that very much. Give it another ten years and the EU will have lost more members.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I don't know if you actually believe that those who oppose the EU need to be experts in the intricacies of regulations.
    I just think if you're going to give "regulations bad!" as a valid reason for leaving you should have a basic (not intricate, just basic) understanding of how those regulations affect us.

    There's lots of laws in this country that I have to follow. I don't use that as a reason to pack up and go live in the woods.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    My "vague" reasons for wanting to leave the EU are based on sovereignty and democracy.
    I hate to get philosophical here, but just saying words like "sovereignty" and "democracy" is not a valid form of argument. What is it we're losing out on here as a member of the EU in terms of sovereignty and democracy?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You don't like to talk about the democratic aspect of the EU because that isn't vague. Instead you focus on shit like regulations, and then gotcha me when I admit I don't give a fuck about researching regulations.
    You're the one who brought up regulations. And the tampon tax. I can only respond to things you say, not things you didn't say. I'm not banana.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    No politics there, of course.
    The Farmer's Union is left-wing?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The same farmers voted to leave. Rural areas of England voted overwhelming to leave.
    Well first, not everyone in a rural area is a farmer. And second, not everyone who voted to Leave wanted a no deal Brexit.

    And third, the Farmer's Union as a whole very likely has a better understanding of the economic impact of Brexit than any given individual farmer.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Later on I'll try to sell tomatoes to Canada.
    Well it's too bad we don't have a trade deal with Canada then. So, why would Canada buy your English tomatoes when they already get all the tomatoes that they need from the US? Are you gonna undercut the US growers as well as the WTO tariffs? You might want to discuss that with the Famers Union.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Um no, EU regulations do not apply to exports to Canada.
    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that Canada has its own set of regulations on food items it imports. Not sure if you thought regulations were strictly an EU thing. They're not.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Well I have a moral issue with emigrating for the sole reason of accessing benefits. Do you think I have the moral right to move to Japan and access their benefits? I'd like to.
    How is being in the EU forcing us to take large numbers of benefit-seekers? We won't even take refugees on a dinghy.

    You're blaming the EU for an imaginary immigration policy that welcomes benefit-seekers (which we don't).




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Swing and a miss.
    Ok then.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I doubt that very much. Give it another ten years and the EU will have lost more members.
    Haha, I doubt very much we will be setting the kind of precedent that other countries currently in the EU will want to follow.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  34. #34
    Also worth pointing out here that Canada is a long ways away, and it costs more money to ship things further, and there's more spoilage.

    I'm speculating here, but I suspect the average Canadian is unlikely to want to buy your expensive, two-week old tomatoes instead of the tariff-free 3 day old tomatoes that come from the US.

    Think you need a Plan B or C or whatever we're up to now for selling your tomatoes.

    Oh, I know! Sell them here in the UK! Can you guess what's wrong with that plan, or should I explain it to you? I'll give you a hint: supply and demand.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  35. #35
    Also I don't know where you get this idea that people are lining up to emigrate to the UK just so they can live off of £500 a month or whatever you get and do nothing. As if that's someone's life ambition lol. I mean, I know that appeals to you, but it really doesn't appeal to most people.

    And even if there are a few people like that, you haven't explained how us being in the EU forces us to allow them to immigrate here.
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 09-11-2020 at 05:53 AM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  36. #36
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    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Oh look, she got a donation!

    Steve Getdafckou donated £20
    Listen mate I ain’t racist I got black friends but please leave this country!
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  38. #38
    A further irony is that I'm a contributing taxpayer who is happy to share his wealth with down and outters, whereas he doesn't pay taxes and doesn't want MY taxes going to down and outters if it happens they were born somewhere else. Fuck me.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  39. #39
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    I love the idea that people with the initiative to upend their entire lives and face the terrifying unknowns of moving countries with no money against the threat to their life and their families' lives... those people are lazy moochers who just want to live off the state.
    The argument that people with such undeniable initiative only want to be lazy doesn't make sense to me.

    I can hear the arguments that desperate people tend to have less respect for laws. I still believe the presumption of innocence is a human right, and that it is strictly immoral to deny someone rights based on the suspicion that they will commit a crime.

    I respect a nation's right (and responsibility) to control its borders. I'm not arguing otherwise. Just the whole, "the people who risked their lives in a dinghy to get here are all lazy loafers" argument doesn't feel very accurate to me.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Just the whole, "the people who risked their lives in a dinghy to get here are all lazy loafers" argument doesn't feel very accurate to me.
    A lot of such arguments strike me as thinly-disguised racism and/or nativism. These same people would have no problem at all using taxpayer money to bail their countrymen out after a natural disaster. But God forbid someone who wasn't born here fleeing an equally intolerable situation asks for help.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  41. #41
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I get that. I appreciate the quote, "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained with ignorance." or however it went that I'm butchering. It's not necessarily the case that others are racist when they could just be uninformed about any number of things.

    You're not arguing for unregulated, open borders are you, though?

    What criteria would you find more palatable to determine who gets in and who doesn't?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I get that. I appreciate the quote, "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained with ignorance." or however it went that I'm butchering. It's not necessarily the case that others are racist when they could just be uninformed about any number of things.

    You're not arguing for unregulated, open borders are you, though?

    What criteria would you find more palatable to determine who gets in and who doesn't?

    I didn't raise the refugee issue, Ong did. My question was how this would be handled any differently if we were out of the EU. He seems to think membership in the EU forces us to accept refugees that we could otherwise turn away. But we're turning them away already, so that argument is already off-target.

    The EU really has nothing to do with what criteria we apply to immigration from outside the EU. You can see here that the EU's actions against Hungary were motivated by it not upholding basic human and democratic rights (the EU does not want its member states to be assholes, for obvious prestige reasons). It was not because they expect each member state to accept some number of migrants from outside the EU.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45498514

    The UK currently deals with extra-EU migrants on its own terms and nothing about this will change after Brexit.

    As for migration within the EU, the right to live and work in any member EU country applies to UK citizens (for now) as well as those from other countries. Further, anyone from the EU currently living in the UK will not be asked to leave after Brexit, and I assume the reverse is true. The only difference is it will be harder for EU citizens currently outside the UK to move to the UK (and vice-versa). There will be more regulations in place, and more hoops to jump through if you want to go EU <-> UK to live and work or just to visit.

    Anyways, to answer your question, I think we should accept our share of refugees and possibly a few more, given we're one of the more wealthy countries in the world. I don't know how many we've accepted in the last decade, but if Germany can take 1m Syrians, I think we can take a few hundred Somalis. I think people who make a big stink every time a dinghy tries to cross the channel are a bit cold, and frankly it's embarrassing.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...fugee-arrivals
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  43. #43
    As for EU citizens coming here to mooch off the UK's benefit system:

    This website shows that's it not trivial for someone from the EU to come over here and start claiming benefits while sitting around on their ass. They have to have been here for five years already (after which they can apply for 'settled' status) or otherwise show they have the 'right to reside'

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/be...-for-benefits/

    If you don’t have settled status you’ll need to show you have a right to reside to claim benefits.

    You can have a right to reside for different reasons - for example, because of things like your work or your family.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  44. #44
    I just think if you're going to give "regulations bad!" as a valid reason for leaving you should have a basic (not intricate, just basic) understanding of how those regulations affect us.
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-ma...EU%20countries.

    Regulations are legal acts that apply automatically and uniformly to all EU countries as soon as they enter into force, without needing to be transposed into national law. They are binding in their entirety on all EU countries.
    That's all I need to know. That last sentence is extremely important, and demonstrates that we are not sovereign as an EU member state. If your plan is to convince me that even in the EU, we have full sovereignty, you're fighting a lost cause, even in debate with me, who can only be bothered with quick dirty googling. It takes seconds to learn that we are bound by their rules, which once again brings us to democratic control.

    There's lots of laws in this country that I have to follow. I don't use that as a reason to pack up and go live in the woods.

    Not a reasonable analogy. We don't have to accept outside laws and regulations, we can instead opt out, which we have done.

    I hate to get philosophical here, but just saying words like "sovereignty" and "democracy" is not a valid form of argument. What is it we're losing out on here as a member of the EU in terms of sovereignty and democracy?
    It's like you don't know what these words mean. Do you understand how the EU elections work? Do you understand how the president is selected? Do you know what "sovereign" means? It means "possessing supreme power". As a member state of the EU, we don't have that. Pointing out we have some power isn't cutting it, we don't have supreme power, as in total. A the democracy thing is not even worth me getting into. You are a Europhile, you should already understand how their idea of democracy works. If you don't, you're a complete mug.

    You're the one who brought up regulations. And the tampon tax. I can only respond to things you say, not things you didn't say. I'm not banana.

    You and banana aren't so different. You seize on "tampons" because it's easy to mock, rather than focussing on the more important aspect of tax interference. You aren't interested in a serious debate, you just want to slap me down while feeling smug. So don't pretend banana is your polar opposite.

    The Farmer's Union is left-wing?

    Fuck knows, probably not, but they are subject to infiltration, and they like money like everyone does. They are corruptible. I don't trust unions at all.

    Well first, not everyone in a rural area is a farmer. And second, not everyone who voted to Leave wanted a no deal Brexit.

    First, most people in rural areas are influenced by farming in the sense their neighbours (and friends and family) are often farmers.

    Second, we've talked about this, but you're conveniently forgetting what the ballot said. The talk about a "deal" only happened after the referendum. The choice was between leaving and remaining. There was no third option, no in between, so anyone who voted to leave and then claims they didn't vote for a "no deal" is either being willfully dishonest or stupid. I voted to leave. When we started to talk about a deal, I preferred a mutually beneficial trade deal, but was not afraid of a no deal because it's precisely what I expected when I voted.

    And third, the Farmer's Union as a whole very likely has a better understanding of the economic impact of Brexit than any given individual farmer.

    For the most part, sure. Irrelevant. You have to assume they're acting in the best interests of the farmers, rather than serving their own interests or those of financial backers. Unions don't give a fuck about the people they represent. I know someone who got pay rise after pay rise because of his union, to the point he asked his employer if they could actually afford these pay rises. They went bust three months after he asked. The union did not give a fuck about people losing their jobs, all they cared about was their existence and their own pay packets.

    If you trust the integrity of unions, more fool you.

    Well it's too bad we don't have a trade deal with Canada then. So, why would Canada buy your English tomatoes when they already get all the tomatoes that they need from the US? Are you gonna undercut the US growers as well as the WTO tariffs? You might want to discuss that with the Famers Union.

    You kinda missed my point. I only wanted to see if the regulations were as ludicrous as EU regs.

    Also, we're in negotiations with Canada regarding a post-Brexit deal.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that Canada has its own set of regulations on food items it imports. Not sure if you thought regulations were strictly an EU thing. They're not.

    You suggested if I want to sell to Canada, I'd have to comply with both EU and Canada regs. Of course regulations are not an EU thing only, it's just they are notorious for overregulating. Maybe Canada are too, they're pretty left wing, I might have walked into a bad example. Let's try USA instead, with their ravenous capitalism.

    How is being in the EU forcing us to take large numbers of benefit-seekers? We won't even take refugees on a dinghy.

    It's not. We're kind of having two discussions at the same time, one about the EU and another about immigration. And we are taking refugees on a dinghy. What do you think is happening to those who arrive? They're not being deported, at least not that I'm aware of. They should be, back to France, because France is a safe country.

    You're blaming the EU for an imaginary immigration policy that welcomes benefit-seekers (which we don't).

    I don't even know how much interference the EU have when it comes to immigration. I am aware of the sanctions they imposed on the Hungarians and the Czechs, but immigration was never a relevance to me when it comes to the EU. That's a myth that you are sucked in to, which is why you think we're having one conversation here.

    Haha, I doubt very much we will be setting the kind of precedent that other countries currently in the EU will want to follow.

    I think a lot of nations are waiting to see how this works out for the UK. Leaving is seen as a massive economic risk. We're the first to take that risk. People are watching.

    Oh, I know! Sell them here in the UK! Can you guess what's wrong with that plan, or should I explain it to you? I'll give you a hint: supply and demand.

    I could sell my tomatoes piece of piss in the UK if I wanted to. There's a pub half a mile from me that might want them. There's a village shop that sells fresh local eggs a mile away. There's a street market in town. I have friends and family who like chutney. Or maybe I can't be arsed for pocket money and they'll end up as compost. But I can assure you that there is high demand for British tomatoes for two reasons... British people like tomatoes, and British tomatoes are fresher than non-British tomatoes. You mock my "two week old" tomatoes... they're still on the vine. They're as fresh as they get.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-ma...EU%20countries.



    That's all I need to know. That last sentence is extremely important, and demonstrates that we are not sovereign as an EU member state. If your plan is to convince me that even in the EU, we have full sovereignty, you're fighting a lost cause, even in debate with me, who can only be bothered with quick dirty googling. It takes seconds to learn that we are bound by their rules, which once again brings us to democratic control.
    Well, no shit we're bound by their rules. Let's not pretend it's some kind of revelation where I'm gonna smack my forehead and say 'zomg I had no idea!'

    So we follow EU rules for trade, and when we leave the EU we either follow EU rules (to trade with the EU), or we follow WTO rules (for non-EU countries where we have no trade agreement), or we make new trade agreements with their own rules.

    Explain to me how following rules costs us our sovereignty or democratic control. You think we should be able to make all the rules and other countries have to follow them? Wtf are you even talking about here?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Not a reasonable analogy. We don't have to accept outside laws and regulations, we can instead opt out, which we have done.
    That's right and I can follow my gov'ts rules that I didn't get to vote on (goddamn undemocratic rules), or I can go live in the woods like a hermit and make my own rules. It's my only way to self-sovereignty!



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's like you don't know what these words mean. Do you understand how the EU elections work? Do you understand how the president is selected? Do you know what "sovereign" means? It means "possessing supreme power". As a member state of the EU, we don't have that. Pointing out we have some power isn't cutting it, we don't have supreme power, as in total. A the democracy thing is not even worth me getting into. You are a Europhile, you should already understand how their idea of democracy works. If you don't, you're a complete mug.

    You and banana aren't so different. You seize on "tampons" because it's easy to mock, rather than focussing on the more important aspect of tax interference. You aren't interested in a serious debate, you just want to slap me down while feeling smug. So don't pretend banana is your polar opposite.
    Is that your answer to how we're losing out on sovereignty and democracy? 'Cause it looks like a lot of "you already know" and ad hominens to me. Just answer the question please.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  46. #46
    So, rather than accept the purely logical conclusion that farmers want to be able to sell their goods to the EU, you argue the Farmer's Union is corrupt. Ok.

    Nearly all unions are corrupt.

    And even if you can find campaigners who pushed for a no deal before the referendum, you then have to convince me that everyone who voted Leave did it because they agreed with those campaigners and not the ones who promised we'd get a great deal.

    I can remember that the question was very clear, and it was a direct choice between leaving and remaining. If you have any apprehension about leaving without a deal, then you should not vote to leave, because it was clearly on the table, it was the default if no agreement was made. I can't precisely remember the timeline, and have no inclination to research. But it was very clear that no deal was the default, whether or not it was actually called "no deal" at the time. When asked that question, you do not vote "leave" and then say under your breath "with caveats". That isn't how referendums work.

    You didn't show me one regulation that falls under the category of ludricrous. So that argument fails right there.

    24 pdf files seemed ludicrous to me. But whatever.

    Here's the bendy banana regulation... happy reading.

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...0060217:EN:PDF

    Your turn. Find me the regs for selling bananas to Canada.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by jack
    In a democracy; if everyone votes in accordance with what is best for them and those that directly depend on them, would the results of said election not be the absolute best outcome for most? Literally. I think this is the most correct use of "Literally" possible.

    No. Imagine if a majority thought the best outcome was a life on benefits. So everyone votes for the "let's do fuck all" party and they win. Suddenly there isn't enough tax to pay the benefits for everyone who's doing fuck all.

    An extreme event, but it demonstrates that people acting in their own interests does not necessarily result in a society that is better for the majority.

    I mean, you can argue I did act in my own best interests. I didn't vote Labour because I think their economic model increases the chance that the country can no longer afford to give me a pittance of an income. I didn't vote Tory either, but I trust them with the economy more than Labour because they're self serving capitalist pigs, they want a strong economy so they get more money. I might be made to feel like a "scrounger" by the Tories, but they at least have succeeded in sustaining an economy capable of paying its scroungers. Labour would likely increase tax and stifle the economy until they get voted out, giving the Tories another excuse to rob people by means of austerity.

    Our politics is a choice between thieves and idiots. With a gun to my head, I'd choose the thieves. There's no gun to my head, so I can draw a cock on my ballot instead for a moment of personal satisfaction that might or might not offend a dear old lady in the counting office. All hail democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Fuck knows, probably not, but they are subject to infiltration, and they like money like everyone does. They are corruptible. I don't trust unions at all.
    So, rather than accept the purely logical conclusion that farmers want to be able to sell their goods to the EU, you argue the Farmer's Union is corrupt. Ok.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    There was no third option, no in between, so anyone who voted to leave and then claims they didn't vote for a "no deal" is either being willfully dishonest or stupid.
    Au contraire, many of the proponents of the Leave campaign argued we'd either be able to keep full trade agreements with the EU, or hold a trading status similar to Norway or Switzerland. In fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find one who argued we would even possibly leave with no deal. If you want to challenge me to find quotes from the former types of campaigner I will. But then you have to find me the latter ones.

    And even if you can find campaigners who pushed for a no deal before the referendum, you then have to convince me that everyone who voted Leave did it because they agreed with those campaigners and not the ones who promised we'd get a great deal.




    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    You kinda missed my point. I only wanted to see if the regulations were as ludicrous as EU regs.
    You didn't show me one regulation that falls under the category of ludricrous. So that argument fails right there.


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Also, we're in negotiations with Canada regarding a post-Brexit deal.
    And do you imagine that if such a deal comes to fruition, it will be a no-regulation deal of some kind? They'll just buy any old moldy tomatoes we have that we want to dump somewhere?
    Last edited by Poopadoop; 09-11-2020 at 04:24 PM.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police invest