*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[Poopadoop]

Watch the glory of Brexit unfold here!

[Poopadoop]

Hey Oskar, I bet all you liberal Eurotards are shitting your pants about not having a deal with the UK yet. Right? Right?

https://twitter.com/AndySpreadbury6/...41357485547526

[Poopadoop]

If anyone wants 7 hours of various people being unable to provide a single good reason to Brexit, check this out. (and it's only part 1!!)

[oskar]

If anyone wants 7 hours of various people being unable to provide a single good reason to Brexit, check this out. (and it's only part 1!!)

neat-o!

[Poopadoop]

neat-o!

Ong calls in at 4hr 56min

[oskar]

I would follow Brexit more closely, and by that I mean closer than not at all, if I thought it would lead to any significant changes that impact me. I am eying London a little bit... the UK is the most convenient english speaking country for me to move to work atm. But that's more like a 2025 plan, and I'm really not worried that Brexit will be more than a slight inconvenience there.

[oskar]

What I don't really get is that it seems that for most people brexit is about stopping immigration somehow, but that to me - based on no information at all I should reiterate, seems like the least likely thing to happen after brexit. Do they want a hermit kingdom? It wasn't that before the EU, so they basically want to get back to something that never was, and on top of that, nobody's going back with you.

To the few sensible criticisms I've heard from brexiters about the EU I'm like: ok, you got a point, but sometimes when you don't like something about the ship you're on, jumping off is rarely your best option.

[OngBonga]

The problem with the EU for me is that it is no longer just a trade bloc, like it was when we joined. It's a political and economic union and not under the democratic control of the British people. Just like Scotland don't approve of effectively being under the democratic control of the English, I don't want to be under the faux-democratic control of German and French people.


Very few people want to stop immigration. People want to control immigration. Not many people have a problem with Hongkongers coming to the UK, and most people don't have problems with the Polish, Indians, or anyone else that comes here and works, and abides by local law, which includes Islamic people. People do have a problem with cities becoming saturated with unskilled immigrants who rely on state handouts, and yes, people do have a problem with people fleeing France on a boat. Why are they coming to the UK instead of staying in France? Because we're softer, they have more financial incentive. Also, the French aren't quite as friendly to immigrants as we are. The irony, eh? We're painted as the racist guys of Europe, yet immigrants are so desperate to leave France for the UK that they'll risk their lives. We're not nearly as intolerant as most of Europe.

[Poopadoop]

The problem with the EU for me is that it is no longer just a trade bloc, like it was when we joined. It's a political and economic union and not under the democratic control of the British people. Just like Scotland don't approve of effectively being under the democratic control of the English, I don't want to be under the faux-democratic control of German and French people.

Maybe you should call in to James O'Brien.

What laws has the EU imposed on you that you feel you'd be better off without? Can you name one?

And I don't mean imaginary dystopian futures that you envisage, where we somehow get forced to join an Imperial EU Army that rampages over Asia. I mean right now, something that is currently being imposed on us by the French and Germans.

Very few people want to stop immigration. People want to control immigration. Not many people have a problem with Hongkongers coming to the UK, and most people don't have problems with the Polish, Indians, or anyone else that comes here and works, and abides by local law, which includes Islamic people. People do have a problem with cities becoming saturated with unskilled immigrants who rely on state handouts, and yes, people do have a problem with people fleeing France on a boat. Why are they coming to the UK instead of staying in France? Because we're softer, they have more financial incentive. Also, the French aren't quite as friendly to immigrants as we are. The irony, eh? We're painted as the racist guys of Europe, yet immigrants are so desperate to leave France for the UK that they'll risk their lives. We're not nearly as intolerant as most of Europe.

Did you know the UK makes it own immigration law? The EU does not force us to take unemployed immigrants, that's our choice to make. How does leaving the EU make any difference here?



And here's a more general question: How is leaving the EU going to make your life any better?

[Poopadoop]

People do have a problem with cities becoming saturated with unskilled immigrants who rely on state handouts,

Presumably by "people" here you're referring to yourself. I guess the irony of a guy relying on state handouts complaining about other people relying on state handouts is lost on you.

[oskar]

Why are they coming to the UK instead of staying in France? Because we're softer, they have more financial incentive. Also, the French aren't quite as friendly to immigrants as we are. The irony, eh? We're painted as the racist guys of Europe, yet immigrants are so desperate to leave France for the UK that they'll risk their lives. We're not nearly as intolerant as most of Europe.

Or because some may have come from a french speaking african countries, whereas others may have come from english speaking african countries and they don't enjoy the prospect of communicating in pantomime...
It's a possibility.

[OngBonga]

Or because some may have come from a french speaking african countries, whereas others may have come from english speaking african countries and they don't enjoy the prospect of communicating in pantomime...
It's a possibility.

Ok, that's fine, I'll accept that maybe it's worth risking the lives of you and your family to live in a safe English-speaking country rather than a safe French-speaking country. So the Nigerians, Ethiopians and Kenyans. So why are Somalians coming here? They speak French. How about Iranians? Syrians? I can understand if it's legal migration, where you have a viable choice, but when you're risking your life on a dinghy, why take that risk when it's between France and the UK?

[Poopadoop]

Yeah Ong, usually we have to rely on you for all our pearls of wisdom itt.

[OngBonga]

What laws has the EU imposed on you that you feel you'd be better off without?

The caveat "that I'd be better off without" is both subjective and irrelevant. I mean, the enforced VAT on tampons doesn't affect me directly, but it's still unwelcome meddling. Tax is not the concern of an outside body which is not subject to the democratic will of the people.

Did you know the UK makes it own immigration law? The EU does not force us to take unemployed immigrants, that's our choice to make. How does leaving the EU make any difference here?

By 9 June 2017, 22,504 people were resettled through the quota system, with over 2000 of them being resettled in May alone.[222] All relevant countries participated in the relocation scheme except Austria, Denmark, Czech Republic, Poland, and Hungary,[223] against whom the European commission had consequentially launched sanctions against the Czech Republic, Poland, and Hungary.[224]

Yeah, I remember them sanctioning Hungary for refusing to submit to the EU immigration policy.

And here's a more general question: How is leaving the EU going to make your life any better?

Why does this matter? I don't make democratic decisions based on what makes me better off. If I did, I'd vote Labour because they'd make life easier for lazy fuckers like myself. I make them based on what I think is best for the country. If that's an alien concept to you, I can't help that. I think it's better for us to be in charge of our own affairs. You can sneer about bendy bananas all you like but the regulations imposed by the EU overwhelm small businesses and favour big businesses that can outsource the legal and administrative workload. Regulation stifles competition. Obviously, some sectors require regulation, for example banking. It's the government's job, not an outside body, to find the right balance when it comes to just how free the market is. If they fuck it up, we can vote them out quickly instead of having a long drawn out process that might or might not result in a referendum. This is what I mean about democratic control. What we do with that control is another matter. But it's essential we have it, and with the EU, we don't.

[Poopadoop]

Yeah, I remember them sanctioning Hungary for refusing to submit to the EU immigration policy.

If we ever come to a place where we want to emulate Hungary's treatment of refugees, that might become an issue. Thankfully we won't have to worry about that now, as no-one will want to come here! It's a win-win!

[OngBonga]

Thankfully we won't have to worry about that now, as no-one will want to come here! It's a win-win!

If no one wants to come here, why are graffiti artists sending boats out to pick up migrants? They seem pretty desperate to come here, regardless of the EU.

Which regulations are those, specifically?

I mean, it quickly became apparent you had no intention of discussing this in good faith due to your tone. Your plan is to expose the fact that I don't have a fucking clue what regulations a business has to tie itself up in, it will differ from sector to sector and from market to market. Not only that, but I have no vested interest in spending time perusing the various regulations. I'm not selling tomatoes to France, I don't need to know that shit. If I want to sell them at a local market, I can.

I mean, I actually just tried to see what regulations I need to read to sell tomatoes to France.
Basic regulation is 24 pdf files. That's fucking basic regulation.

Best I can tell, I've got a further 72 files to read through.
https://ec.europa.eu/info/food-farmi...-vegetables_en
section - legal basis

I can't be bothered to sell tomatoes to France.

Presumably by "people" here you're referring to yourself. I guess the irony of a guy relying on state handouts complaining about other people relying on state handouts is lost on you.

I mean most people you wrongly assume are racist, ie right wingers. And there's no irony in me being on benefits, since I didn't come here from another country with the sole intention of living off benefits. And the fact you mock me for this exposes a great deal of hypocrisy. I mean, you're clearly fine with your tax going to people from other countries, so stop pretending you have a moral issue with me being on benefits. You can't have it both ways. You're in favour of a soft benefit system.

Had to look that up 'cause no-one thought to mention that vital point before. Turns out we could have ended the VAT on tampons without leaving the EU. Oh snap!

Fuck, can I vote again please?

[Poopadoop]

If no one wants to come here, why are graffiti artists sending boats out to pick up migrants? They seem pretty desperate to come here, regardless of the EU.

They probably know it's their last chance before we are free from the shackles of the liberal Eurotards and we can start treating refugees like dirt. #MEGA

I mean, it quickly became apparent you had no intention of discussing this in good faith due to your tone.

And yet I keep asking questions and giving you the chance to explain yourself.

Your plan is to expose the fact that I don't have a fucking clue what regulations a business has to tie itself up in, it will differ from sector to sector and from market to market.

The point was to show that you only have the vaguest reasons for supporting Brexit, reasons that you don't fully understand yourself. You bring up talking points like regulation, immigration, and sovereignty without actually knowing any of the details that would show those talking points to be spurious.

Not only that, but I have no vested interest in spending time perusing the various regulations. I'm not selling tomatoes to France, I don't need to know that shit. If I want to sell them at a local market, I can.

The National Farmer's Union, who arguably has a bigger stake in this than you, considers the ability to trade unhindered with the EU as vital to its interests, and has expressed a deep concern over the prospect of a no-deal Brexit.

https://www.nfuonline.com/news/brexi...itish-farming/

Given how much you care about your countrymen, I'm surprised you're not aware of that.

I mean, I actually just tried to see what regulations I need to read to sell tomatoes to France.
Basic regulation is 24 pdf files. That's fucking basic regulation.

The funny thing about this is you choose a country that's in the EU to export your tomatoes to. So, when we leave the EU, do you think those regulations would no longer apply to someone trying to export tomatoes to France?

I'll give you a hint: The answer is the regulations for export to the EU post-Brexit will be those 24 pages plus whatever else gets added after Brexit.

So yeah, Brexit definitely won't make it easier to export tomatoes, or anything else, to the EU.

I can't be bothered to sell tomatoes to France.

Thank God your livelihood doesn't depend on it then.

I mean most people you wrongly assume are racist, ie right wingers. And there's no irony in me being on benefits, since I didn't come here from another country with the sole intention of living off benefits. And the fact you mock me for this exposes a great deal of hypocrisy. I mean, you're clearly fine with your tax going to people from other countries, so stop pretending you have a moral issue with me being on benefits. You can't have it both ways. You're in favour of a soft benefit system.

I don't have a moral issue with you being on benefits. I've never argued to cut the benefit system. I have a moral issue with one's country of birth being a criteria for their receiving benefits or not receiving benefits.

I'm starting to think that the reason this worries you is because you think they'll someday cut out benefits even for you, and that that movement will gain traction the more people there are receiving benefits.

Fuck, can I vote again please?

Yeah, in about 5 years when it becomes crystal clear even to the most stubborn Brexiter that this was a huge mistake.

[Poopadoop]

...the regulations imposed by the EU overwhelm small businesses and favour big businesses that can outsource the legal and administrative workload.

Which regulations are those, specifically?

And more generally, what makes you think we're more competent at regulating banks than the EU is?

[Jack Sawyer]

Why does this matter? I don't make democratic decisions based on what makes me better off. If I did, I'd vote Labour because they'd make life easier for lazy fuckers like myself. I make them based on what I think is best for the country. If that's an alien concept to you, I can't help that. I think it's better for us to be in charge of our own affairs. You can sneer about bendy bananas all you like but the regulations imposed by the EU overwhelm small businesses and favour big businesses that can outsource the legal and administrative workload. Regulation stifles competition. Obviously, some sectors require regulation, for example banking. It's the government's job, not an outside body, to find the right balance when it comes to just how free the market is. If they fuck it up, we can vote them out quickly instead of having a long drawn out process that might or might not result in a referendum. This is what I mean about democratic control. What we do with that control is another matter. But it's essential we have it, and with the EU, we don't.

In a democracy; if everyone votes in accordance with what is best for them and those that directly depend on them, would the results of said election not be the absolute best outcome for most? Literally. I think this is the most correct use of "Literally" possible.

Also in a democracy; what you THINK is the best for the country does not necessarily mean it actually factually IS the best for the country. But you do have YOUR OWN lot in your hands, and can directly make A DECISION THAT DOES BENEFIT YOU the easiest, right?

[Poopadoop]

So VAT on tampons is the first thing that comes to mind as a valid reason to leave the world's largest trading bloc. Good to see you have things in clear perspective.

And since you're so worried about a foreign influence on your countrymen's well-being (not your own, obviously, you're completely unselfish), how happy are you about the economic hit that's coming to your fellow countrymen? Do you think the average Brit will be able to make it up by all the money they save on tampons (presumably the females will be sharing their savings with their male partners where possible)?

[Poopadoop]

So VAT on tampons is the first thing that comes to mind as a valid reason to leave the world's largest trading bloc. Good to see you have things in clear perspective.

Had to look that up 'cause no-one thought to mention that vital point before. Turns out we could have ended the VAT on tampons without leaving the EU. Oh snap!

http://infacts.org/we-dont-need-to-l...he-tampon-tax/

[Poopadoop]

Ong calls in at to complain about the tampon tax at 12 min. Surprising such a critical issue was one that O'Brien had to go and look up.

[oskar]

Ong calls in at to complain about the tampon tax at 12 min. Surprising such a critical issue was one that O'Brien had to go and look up.

HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE THERE???

[Poopadoop]

HOW MANY OF THOSE ARE THERE???

I think that's the last one. But a lot of the clips are from 1-2 years ago, so it's possible the person compiling them ended up killing themselves.

[oskar]

Even by your own narrow reasoning for why certain people shouldn't have freedom of movement, your argument stops holding up once you look at the bottom line of how much immigrants pay into the system vs how much they take out.
I can't quickly find a statistic that filters for scary brown people countries, but as a whole immigrants contribute massively more than they take out: https://www.ft.com/content/c49043a8-...9-00144feabdc0

You're basically saying: I don't care that they pay x billions into the system if they then have the audacity to benefit from the service they pay for with their taxes!

[OngBonga]

Even by your own narrow reasoning for why certain people shouldn't have freedom of movement, your argument stops holding up once you look at the bottom line of how much immigrants pay into the system vs how much they take out.
I can't quickly find a statistic that filters for scary brown people countries, but as a whole immigrants contribute massively more than they take out: https://www.ft.com/content/c49043a8-...9-00144feabdc0

You're basically saying: I don't care that they pay x billions into the system if they then have the audacity to benefit from the service they pay for with their taxes!

So you're arguing that because immigrant #1 comes here, works, pays taxes and contributes to society, that immigrants #2 and #3 can come here and do nothing.

My problem is not with people who emigrate legally and with good intent, and then fall on hard times. I'm not saying these people should not have access to the welfare system. I'm saying we should not encourage people to come here for the sole reason of accessing our welfare system. I don't know why you pretend that's such a difficult concept to understand. You deliberately use language like "scary brown people countries" to imply that this is about racism, when that isn't true at all. I don't even think you're being insincere, I think your brain is just hard wired to believe that any opposition to immigration is racism, whether overt or covert.

I know immigrants as a whole contribute to society. That's why I don't oppose immigration. I oppose illegal immigration and the importing of large numbers of unskilled people.

[oskar]

So you're arguing that because immigrant #1 comes here, works, pays taxes and contributes to society, that immigrants #2 and #3 can come here and do nothing.

My problem is not with people who emigrate legally and with good intent, and then fall on hard times. I'm not saying these people should not have access to the welfare system. I'm saying we should not encourage people to come here for the sole reason of accessing our welfare system. I don't know why you pretend that's such a difficult concept to understand. You deliberately use language like "scary brown people countries" to imply that this is about racism, when that isn't true at all. I don't even think you're being insincere, I think your brain is just hard wired to believe that any opposition to immigration is racism, whether overt or covert.

I know immigrants as a whole contribute to society. That's why I don't oppose immigration. I oppose illegal immigration and the importing of large numbers of unskilled people.

Sometimes you pay into a system, sometimes you take out of it. Unless you can figure out some kind of Minority Report Precog system, you're not going to know who's going to be profitable and who's not, but the bottom line is: immigrants are a net positive to the economy. The bureaucracy required to sort the maximally profitable is likely completely uneconomical even if you ignore the ethical problems.

I feel dirty even arguing this because I think people shouldn't be bound to serve capital interests at all. Everyone should get some form of UBI and be free to do whatever they want, because what they want to do is much more likely going to improve their standard of living and the standard of living of their community than if they were to serve the interests of a company that serves its own capital interests and not the people's interests.
So I don't give a shit if immigrants are good for the fiscal bottom line, but it happens that they are.

[Poopadoop]

Sometimes you pay into a system, sometimes you take out of it. Unless you can figure out some kind of Minority Report Precog system, you're not going to know who's going to be profitable and who's not, but the bottom line is: immigrants are a net positive to the economy. The bureaucracy required to sort the maximally profitable is likely completely uneconomical even if you ignore the ethical problems.

I feel dirty even arguing this because I think people shouldn't be bound to serve capital interests at all. Everyone should get some form of UBI and be free to do whatever they want, because what they want to do is much more likely going to improve their standard of living and the standard of living of their community than if they were to serve the interests of a company that serves its own capital interests and not the people's interests.
So I don't give a shit if immigrants are good for the fiscal bottom line, but it happens that they are.

Over and above all this is the fact that he hasn't explained how leaving the EU will solve the problem he perceives to exist with all these lazy immigrants. I think he believes that currently anyone in the EU can just show up in the UK and stay as long as they want and not work and the EU forces us to not only accept that, but pay them to do nothing as well.

[Poopadoop]

Q: What could be even better than Brexit?

A: Brexit plus a trade war with the EU plus no trade deal with the US!

[OngBonga]

They probably know it's their last chance before we are free from the shackles of the liberal Eurotards and we can start treating refugees like dirt. #MEGA

I mean, you don't even believe this yourself. I can't be arsed to discuss this with you. It wasn't long ago that I thought oskar was more "deranged left" than you. I was wrong about that. Oskar at least debates in good faith. You don't.

[Poopadoop]

I mean, you don't even believe this yourself.

You're right I don't. We're already treating refugees like dirt and we're still in the EU.

Maybe it's something to do with being able to speak English like Oskar said, or having relatives or other contacts here that they don't have in France. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure they're not being drawn to us because we're in the EU.

[OngBonga]

The point was to show that you only have the vaguest reasons for supporting Brexit, reasons that you don't fully understand yourself. You bring up talking points like regulation, immigration, and sovereignty without actually knowing any of the details that would show those talking points to be spurious.

I don't know if you actually believe that those who oppose the EU need to be experts in the intricacies of regulations. My "vague" reasons for wanting to leave the EU are based on sovereignty and democracy. You don't like to talk about the democratic aspect of the EU because that isn't vague. Instead you focus on shit like regulations, and then gotcha me when I admit I don't give a fuck about researching regulations.

The National Farmer's Union, who arguably has a bigger stake in this than you, considers the ability to trade unhindered with the EU as vital to its interests, and has expressed a deep concern over the prospect of a no-deal Brexit.

No politics there, of course. The same farmers voted to leave. Rural areas of England voted overwhelming to leave.

The funny thing about this is you choose a country that's in the EU to export your tomatoes to. So, when we leave the EU, do you think those regulations would no longer apply to someone trying to export tomatoes to France?

Later on I'll try to sell tomatoes to Canada.

I'll give you a hint: The answer is the regulations for export to the EU post-Brexit will be those 24 pages plus whatever else gets added after Brexit.

Um no, EU regulations do not apply to exports to Canada.

I have a moral issue with one's country of birth being a criteria for their receiving benefits or not receiving benefits

Well I have a moral issue with emigrating for the sole reason of accessing benefits. Do you think I have the moral right to move to Japan and access their benefits? I'd like to.

I'm starting to think that the reason this worries you is because you think they'll someday cut out benefits even for you, and that that movement will gain traction the more people there are receiving benefits.

Swing and a miss.

Yeah, in about 5 years when it becomes crystal clear even to the most stubborn Brexiter that this was a huge mistake.

I doubt that very much. Give it another ten years and the EU will have lost more members.

[Poopadoop]

I don't know if you actually believe that those who oppose the EU need to be experts in the intricacies of regulations.

I just think if you're going to give "regulations bad!" as a valid reason for leaving you should have a basic (not intricate, just basic) understanding of how those regulations affect us.

There's lots of laws in this country that I have to follow. I don't use that as a reason to pack up and go live in the woods.

My "vague" reasons for wanting to leave the EU are based on sovereignty and democracy.

I hate to get philosophical here, but just saying words like "sovereignty" and "democracy" is not a valid form of argument. What is it we're losing out on here as a member of the EU in terms of sovereignty and democracy?

You don't like to talk about the democratic aspect of the EU because that isn't vague. Instead you focus on shit like regulations, and then gotcha me when I admit I don't give a fuck about researching regulations.

You're the one who brought up regulations. And the tampon tax. I can only respond to things you say, not things you didn't say. I'm not banana.

No politics there, of course.

The Farmer's Union is left-wing?

The same farmers voted to leave. Rural areas of England voted overwhelming to leave.

Well first, not everyone in a rural area is a farmer. And second, not everyone who voted to Leave wanted a no deal Brexit.

And third, the Farmer's Union as a whole very likely has a better understanding of the economic impact of Brexit than any given individual farmer.

Later on I'll try to sell tomatoes to Canada.

Well it's too bad we don't have a trade deal with Canada then. So, why would Canada buy your English tomatoes when they already get all the tomatoes that they need from the US? Are you gonna undercut the US growers as well as the WTO tariffs? You might want to discuss that with the Famers Union.

Um no, EU regulations do not apply to exports to Canada.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that Canada has its own set of regulations on food items it imports. Not sure if you thought regulations were strictly an EU thing. They're not.

Well I have a moral issue with emigrating for the sole reason of accessing benefits. Do you think I have the moral right to move to Japan and access their benefits? I'd like to.

How is being in the EU forcing us to take large numbers of benefit-seekers? We won't even take refugees on a dinghy.

You're blaming the EU for an imaginary immigration policy that welcomes benefit-seekers (which we don't).

Swing and a miss.

Ok then.

I doubt that very much. Give it another ten years and the EU will have lost more members.

Haha, I doubt very much we will be setting the kind of precedent that other countries currently in the EU will want to follow.