*** OFFICIAL BREXIT SUNLIT UPLANDS and #MEGA THREAD ***

[Poopadoop]

But fishing is saved, right?

I refer you to post #273 above.

[OngBonga]

There's only one person who has authority over me, and that's my Mom. If she tells me I'm going to hers for Christmas, I'm fucking going.

They're saying I'm only allowed to go on Christmas day, but I have to get the train. I could go late on Christmas Eve, and wait until midnight before asking Mom to let me in, staying for 24 hours, then leaving at midnight to sit at the train station for 30-odd hours until I can get home.

Or, I could ignore what they say, turn up first thing on Christmas Eve, wrap the presents, have a bath and a nap, then get pissed until the 28th with the family.

[Poopadoop]

This should be No. 1 in the UK

[OngBonga]

The funny thing is, the Tories will still win the next election. Despite Boris being an incompetent liar, people still trust him more than Starmer. Fucking state of British politics.

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.

[OngBonga]

Some porn for poop -

NSFW

Spoiler: Show

[Poopadoop]

The funny thing is, the Tories will still win the next election. Despite Boris being an incompetent liar, people still trust him more than Starmer. Fucking state of British politics.

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right.

Lol, if the election were held tomorrow they would get their asses handed to them so badly. If it were held three months into Brexit, they'd lose every seat.

I doubt they will win in 2024 either, but it's a long ways off and a lot can happen. Boris resigning will help them somewhat, but not sure it will be enough.

[Poopadoop]

Some porn for poop -

How is this good for anyone?

[Poopadoop]

Brexit to the left of me, covid to the right, how I will starve in the UK with you.

fyp

[OngBonga]

How is this good for anyone?

It's not. But that isn't stopping remainers from jizzing their pants on Twitter.

As for Labour winning the next election, perhaps you should take a look on Twitter and see why Starmer is trending. Something about pissing the Scottish off. Also he recently said this about covid... “This is now a real emergency”. I think he's smoking the same weed as Boris.

[OngBonga]

You still think we're going to starve? So what's more stupid? Voting for starvation? Or staying in the country when you don't need to, even though you think you'll starve?

[OngBonga]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your "starve" talk is hyperbole. If you were back in Canada, I'd maybe think you really believed it.

[OngBonga]

Brexit to the right of me, covid to the left, here I am running out of lettuce with you.

[Poopadoop]

It's not. But that isn't stopping remainers from jizzing their pants on Twitter.

Schadenfreude.

As for Labour winning the next election, perhaps you should take a look on Twitter and see why Starmer is trending. Something about pissing the Scottish off. Also he recently said this about covid... “This is now a real emergency”. I think he's smoking the same weed as Boris.

If that's the worst you can say about Starmer, he'll still have a long way to go before he reaches Boris-level stupidity.

[Poopadoop]

You still think we're going to starve? So what's more stupid? Voting for starvation? Or staying in the country when you don't need to, even though you think you'll starve?

I don't literally think we're going to starve obviously.

But I think we are going to have shortages of food, in particular fresh fruit and veg. For some of the country, they probably live on fish and chips and beans on toast anyways, so no biggie. But for someone who prefers a nutritious and varied diet, it's a bit of Brexit I'm not looking forward to.

[Poopadoop]

Brexit to the right of me, covid to the left, here I am running out of lettuce with you.

If it were only lettuce that would be pretty minor.

Go down the list of all the food we import during the winter. I know you're too lazy to do that, but youll find out soon enough it's a substantial list. Thatcher joined the EU in the first place for food security.

[OngBonga]

If that's the worst you can say about Starmer, he'll still have a long way to go before he reaches Boris-level stupidity.

It's not. The worst I can say about him is he is a "Sir", which means he's about as socialist as my left testicle. He's very much part of the system which leftists seem to hate. If he ever actually becomes PM, he'll be hated like Blair... by both the left and right.

But for someone who prefers a nutritious and varied diet, it's a bit of Brexit I'm not looking forward to.

Luckily, lettuce isn't the only source of vitamins and minerals.

[Poopadoop]

The worst I can say about him is he is a "Sir", which means he's about as socialist as my left testicle.

No, it means he was honored for service for his country, which in his case is more admirable since he wasn't born into it like a lot of them. I doubt that title will ever be bestowed on Boris in any way shape or form lol.

Starmer also isn't an Eton boy, so he's already more socialist than a Tory there.

He's very much part of the system which leftists seem to hate. If he ever actually becomes PM, he'll be hated like Blair... by both the left and right.

It's not about being everyone's favorite, it's about running the country like a grown-up. If he can manage that he'll be a welcome change from the current gang of clowns. By 2024 Boris' replacement will be struggling to convince anyone that the Tories have been good for the country. They'll still have their #MEGA nationalist idiots voting for them, but fortunately there aren't as many of those here as in some countries.

Luckily, lettuce isn't the only source of vitamins and minerals.

Guess you think all those trucks backed up in Calais are full of lettuce. You are in for a bit of a surprise there mate. The markets can't stockpile enough food to get us through the winter, and perishables will be the first to run low/out.

[Poopadoop]

Go down the list of all the food we import during the winter. I know you're too lazy to do that....

Not sure if you took the effort to read this part, but you're kinda making my point with your lettuce cracks either way.

[oskar]

I refer you to post #273 above.

oh no!

[OngBonga]

No, it means he was honored for service for his country

This will sound like mockery but it's not intended as such. I envy this naivety. The "Sir" club is precisely the kind of "boys club" bullshit that you would oppose if it were a political rival, for example Boris. Keir got his title thanks to services in law and criminal justice. Meanwhile, John Cleese is not knighted.So being a good lawyer seems to be more important than being our most famous comedian.

Some top sports stars and musicians get knighted, but for the most part it's corrupt as fuck. I mean, you tell me why Bob Geldof is knighted but Midge Ure isn't.

Guess you think all those trucks backed up in Calais are full of lettuce.

I can't imagine there's much fresh produce at all on a bunch of trucks coming from Europe, seeing as it's midwinter. I'd expect our fruit and veg to be mostly coming from the Southern Hemisphere on cargo ships, but perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe there's huge hydroponic farms in France where our cabbage comes from.

Not sure if you took the effort to read this part, but you're kinda making my point with your lettuce cracks either way.

Lettuce was tending on Twitter, that's why it was on my mind.

[oskar]

I'm currently shopping for a new bike. I'll probably end up buying from the UK which is already €20 more for shipping than within the EU. However BJ ran the GBP so far into the ground, the exchange rate more than makes up for it. So it all evens it out.

[oskar]

Some top sports stars and musicians get knighted, but for the most part it's corrupt as fuck. I mean, you tell me why Bob Geldof is knighted but Midge Ure isn't.

lol knights

[OngBonga]

K-niggets

[OngBonga]

For some context, Geldof was knighted for his charity work with Bandaid. However, this wasn't all Geldof's work. Midge Ure also played an important role. Today, Midge is broke, while Geldof struts around on yachts. Now, if you actually take a look at their music careers, you'll naturally ask yourself the question "how many copies of I Don't Like Mondays must you shift to buy a yacht?". More than Vienna and Fade to Grey put together, it seems.

Midge Ure is a great deal more successful. But he's not corrupt, so he's neither rich nor a Sir.

Bandaid was corrupt as fuck. Apparently, only 1p on the pound actually got as far as Africa. It didn't end hunger, but it did make Geldof very fucking rich.

[OngBonga]

I'm currently shopping for a new bike. I'll probably end up buying from the UK which is already €20 more for shipping than within the EU. However BJ ran the GBP so far into the ground, the exchange rate more than makes up for it. So it all evens it out.

So we're exporting more and importing less? The benefit of Brexit already!

Also, we appear to have vaccinated 500,000 people before the EU have even got started. Let's just hope everyone doesn't turn into flids, eh?

[oskar]

For some context, Geldof was knighted for his charity work with Bandaid. However, this wasn't all Geldof's work. Midge Ure also played an important role. Today, Midge is broke, while Geldof struts around on yachts. Now, if you actually take a look at their music careers, you'll naturally ask yourself the question "how many copies of I Don't Like Mondays must you shift to buy a yacht?". More than Vienna and Fade to Grey put together, it seems.

Midge Ure is a great deal more successful. But he's not corrupt, so he's neither rich nor a Sir.

Bandaid was corrupt as fuck. Apparently, only 1p on the pound actually got as far as Africa. It didn't end hunger, but it did make Geldof very fucking rich.

Those are funny sounding names.
Would you say that knighting is the world's longest running awards show?

[OngBonga]

Those are funny sounding names.

This must be xenophobic, Oscar with a K.

Would you say that knighting is the world's longest running awards show?

I mean, back in medieval times, it meant something. A knight was an armed associate of the King. Today it's a title bestowed to the corrupt, and occasionally someone too famous and successful to ignore, like Paul McCartney, Andy Murray, probably Lewis Hamilton soon, but not John Cleese.

[OngBonga]

Midge Ure is actually called James.

[Poopadoop]

Keir got his title thanks to services in law and criminal justice.

Sounds pretty messed up for sure, getting handed a title for little more than putting dangerous criminals away.

[Poopadoop]

Also, we appear to have vaccinated 500,000 people before the EU have even got started.

Too bad they can't keep track of who they have and haven't vaccinated lol.

[Poopadoop]

Geldof was the frontman for BandAid, so not surprising he got the knighthood. They can't just knight everyone who had a hand in it, or they'd run out of swords. Just like they can't knight every prosecutor that ever lived, so they pick one who had a prominent role, hence KS gets one.

I don't know why Midge Ure is broke now but I'm guessing it has something to do with hookers and blow. Or maybe because he named himself after a bird and then choose a last name that rhymes with manure. Dunno.

[Poopadoop]

Those are funny sounding names.
Would you say that knighting is the world's longest running awards show?

It's only the top echelon of awards. They also have Orders of the British Empire and Member of the British Empire, though they tend to hand out the latter at least like candy. One of our dept. administrators got an MBE for being in her job for 50 years or some shit. Nothing more.

[Poopadoop]

I'd expect our fruit and veg to be mostly coming from the Southern Hemisphere on cargo ships, but perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe there's huge hydroponic farms in France where our cabbage comes from.

I'm not surprised you have no clue about this, but they can still grow fruit and veg in S. Europe during the winter. That's where a lot of it comes from.

Also, just to remind you for the umpteenth time, all the current trade deals we have apart from with Japan (and I think the Ivory Coast) are through the EU. After Dec. 31st, those deals are gone and we'll have a no-deal arrangement with those countries too.

But don't worry, I'm sure Boris will make sure the paperwork's all organised and ready to go in the customs houses, once he hires a few thousand people to fill them. I'm confident he's working night and day on it, like he does on everything important.

[Poopadoop]

BJ ran the GBP so far into the ground....

That's good news for UK exporters, not so good if we have to import anything. But no worries, when the sun starts shining on our uplands Jan. 1 I'm sure we'll be able to grow all the food we need.

[Poopadoop]

There's no way Boris survives this winter as PM. When even the Daily Mail and Telegraph turn on a Tory, they're fucked.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

[OngBonga]

Sounds pretty messed up for sure, getting handed a title for little more than putting dangerous criminals away.

Let's dish out knighthoods to every fucking cop then. I mean, they do the donkey work. The lawyers just get paid absurd amounts of money to translate English into legalese.

Too bad they can't keep track of who they have and haven't vaccinated lol.

Sounds like nonsense to me. It'll be on people's medical records.

Geldof was the frontman for BandAid, so not surprising he got the knighthood. They can't just knight everyone who had a hand in it, or they'd run out of swords.

Lol you want to hand out swords to lawyers! And you're being unfair to Midge Ure here. It's not like he sang a line from the song, the whole thing was him and Geldof. If we're to assume it was an uncorrupted charity that raised millions, they both deserve knighthoods.

I don't know why Midge Ure is broke now

Well yeah, maybe hookers and coke, who knows. But Geldof's wealth is interesting, don't you agree? He shouldn't have made a penny off Band Aid, and the Boomtown Rats were shit, a one-hit-wonder.

[OngBonga]

I'm not surprised you have no clue about this, but they can still grow fruit and veg in S. Europe during the winter. That's where a lot of it comes from.

Also, just to remind you for the umpteenth time, all the current trade deals we have apart from with Japan (and I think the Ivory Coast) are through the EU. After Dec. 31st, those deals are gone and we'll have a no-deal arrangement with those countries too.

Not according to the UK govt website.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-trade...n-eu-countries

Trade agreements that have been signed


Agreements with the following countries and trading blocs are expected to take effect when existing EU trade agreements no longer apply to the UK, from 1 January 2021.

Country or bloc Total UK trade with countries, 2019 (£ million) (1)


Andean countries (2) 2,876
Canada 22,418
CARIFORUM trade bloc 3,046
Central America 1,411
Chile 2,171
Côte d’Ivoire 398
Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc  1,569
Egypt   3,503
Faroe Islands 293
Georgia 183
Iceland and Norway 26,747
Israel 5,014
Jordan 548
Kenya (3) 1,407
Kosovo 10
Lebanon 849
Liechtenstein 159
Mexico 5,254
Morocco 2,251
North Macedonia 1,774
Pacific states 196
Palestinian Authority 9
Singapore 17,636
South Korea 11,777
Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACUM) trade bloc 11,875
Switzerland 37,063
Tunisia 561
Ukraine 1,566
Vietnam (Agreement in principle) 5,706


Trade agreements still in discussion
The following agreements are still under discussion with countries where there are existing EU trade agreements in place.

Country or bloc Status of discussions
Albania Engagement ongoing
Algeria (1) Engagement ongoing, agreement will not be in place for 1 January 2021. Trade expected to take place under WTO terms (Generalised Scheme of Preferences for imports).
Bosnia and Herzegovina (1) Engagement ongoing, agreement will not be in place for 1 January 2021. Trade expected to take place under WTO terms.
Cameroon Engagement ongoing
Ghana Engagement ongoing
Moldova Engagement ongoing
Montenegro Engagement ongoing, agreement will not be in place for 1 January 2021. Trade expected to take place under WTO terms.
Serbia (1) Engagement ongoing, agreement will not be in place for 1 January 2021. Trade expected to take place under WTO terms.
Turkey Engagement ongoing

[OngBonga]

We've already signed a Free Trade Agreement with Japan, and an announcement regarding Brazil is imminent, according to Twitter sources.

[Poopadoop]

We've already signed a Free Trade Agreement with Japan, and an announcement regarding Brazil is imminent, according to Twitter sources.

Then you need a new source.

The "free trade" agreement with Japan is a weaker version of the deal the EU has with Japan. We had to give them concessions that they didn't have to give to us when we were in the EU.

Brazil trades as part of Mercosur. So not sure how they're pulling that one off. In fact it's not even on the list you URL'd.

Those other countries we have agreements with - I don't suppose those are "WTO" style agreements are they? Like the "Australia style" agreement" they're talking about with the EU, i.e., WTO. That's not free trade mate. That's basically saying we'll tariff the shit out of you and you can do the same to us.

[Poopadoop]

Trade agreements that have been signed

Andean countries (2) 2,876
Canada 22,418
CARIFORUM trade bloc 3,046
Central America 1,411
Chile 2,171
Côte d’Ivoire 398
Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) trade bloc  1,569
Egypt   3,503
Faroe Islands 293
Georgia 183
Iceland and Norway 26,747
Israel 5,014
Jordan 548
Kenya (3) 1,407
Kosovo 10
Lebanon 849
Liechtenstein 159
Mexico 5,254
Morocco 2,251
North Macedonia 1,774
Pacific states 196
Palestinian Authority 9
Singapore 17,636
South Korea 11,777
Southern Africa Customs Union and Mozambique (SACUM) trade bloc 11,875
Switzerland 37,063
Tunisia 561
Ukraine 1,566
Vietnam (Agreement in principle) 5,706

lol, what a sad list.

Half of our trade is with the EU. They're not on that list. Neither is China, nor the US, nor any of the countries we do 90% of our trade with. Even if all of those deals were for free trade (not some shitty deal we had to beg to get like with Japan), we'd still be fucked in 90% of the world.

But hey, don't worry we'll grow our own oranges and maybe Oskar will buy all our bicycles.

[Poopadoop]

Let's dish out knighthoods to every fucking cop then. I mean, they do the donkey work. The lawyers just get paid absurd amounts of money to translate English into legalese.

They give knighthoods to everyone who serves as head of DPP. So it's not like Starmer had some cousin who knew the queen or something. Anyways, who cares? He doesn't make a big thing out of it.

Sounds like nonsense to me. It'll be on people's medical records.

It was in the news, that they'd lost track of who'd they vaccinated. Maybe they've sorted out now with a little help from Dido, I dunno.

Lol you want to hand out swords to lawyers! And you're being unfair to Midge Ure here. It's not like he sang a line from the song, the whole thing was him and Geldof. If we're to assume it was an uncorrupted charity that raised millions, they both deserve knighthoods.

Well yeah, maybe hookers and coke, who knows. But Geldof's wealth is interesting, don't you agree? He shouldn't have made a penny off Band Aid, and the Boomtown Rats were shit, a one-hit-wonder.

Really off topic here, but sure Midge can call himself His Royal Grace for all I care. You were whining about Starmer being a Sir and that making him a closet Tory. Or something. Can't remember if you had a point or not actually.

[OngBonga]

Half of our trade is with the EU. They're not on that list.

Haha fuck me, the EU aren't on a list of non-EU countries and trading blocs we've signed agreements with.

The UK is seeking to reproduce the effects of existing EU agreements for when they no longer apply to the UK.

This doesn't imply WTO. You don't "sign" an agreement to trade under WTO rules, that's what happens if you don't sign an agreement.

The USA are a little lower on this page, with Australia and NZ under MRA's. These deals "replicate the effect of existing EU arrangements."

And you mention oranges. They currently mostly come from Spain. Assuming we don't agree a deal with the EU, we'll likely buy our oranges from elsewhere, perhaps South America. Who does that hurt? The UK? Or Spain?

[Poopadoop]

Haha fuck me, the EU aren't on a list of non-EU countries and trading blocs we've signed agreements with.

The point is that we don't have a deal with the EU. If you want to consider a deal with the Faroe Islands and all those other tiny trading partners as some kind of big win, then that just shows how desperate you are to find a silver lining in this massive cloud of shit.

This doesn't imply WTO. You don't "sign" an agreement to trade under WTO rules, that's what happens if you don't sign an agreement.

Am only referring to WTO because the gov't have been very liberal in what they have touted as a "deal." And something tells me you haven't properly investigated the value of these various "deals."

The USA are a little lower on this page, with Australia and NZ under MRA's. These deals "replicate the effect of existing EU arrangements."

Wait, so we left the EU to make our own trade deals that mostly haven't happened, and when they have, replicate the deals that we used to have when we were in the EU?

Genius.

And you mention oranges. They currently mostly come from Spain. Assuming we don't agree a deal with the EU, we'll likely buy our oranges from elsewhere, perhaps South America. Who does that hurt? The UK? Or Spain?

It hurts us if we have to buy our oranges from further away; shipping costs money. And if were buying from a country outside of the EU that we don't have a free trade agreement with (i.e., all of them), then that means tariffs. And tariffs increase prices.

That means when you buy an orange after Brexit you will be paying more for it than you were before. And it's not just oranges, it's all the other things (half our imports) that will either come from the EU with WTO rules or some further country with whatever tariffs are on them.

But really, I don't know why I bother explaining the same basic economic facts to you over and over again when all you ever do is stick your fingers in your ears and argue that 2+2=5. .

I'm also not sure what the impact on Spain has to do with it. Did you vote for Brexit to help the UK or to hurt Spain?

[OngBonga]

If you want to consider a deal with the Faroe Islands and all those other tiny trading partners as some kind of big win,

Haha you called Canada "tiny".

then that just shows how desperate you are to find a silver lining in this massive cloud of shit.

I wasn't presenting "silver lining", I was directly refuting your argument that we only have two deals arranged.

The "silver lining" though is that we're out of the EU.

Am only referring to WTO because the gov't have been very liberal in what they have touted as a "deal." And something tells me you haven't properly investigated the value of these various "deals."

You're right, I'm too lazy and not remotely invested enough in it. My attitude doesn't change, if we have another vote tomorrow I vote to leave... sorry I vote to remain outside the EU. I'm a reamainer now, you're a rejoiner.

We do agree that the govt have made a complete mess of this, but that doesn't mean I suddenly want back in. It means I want a change of govt. Unfortunately the alternative is probably worse, but the sorry state of British politics is another discussion.

Wait, so we left the EU to make our own trade deals that mostly haven't happened, and when they have, replicate the deals that we used to have when we were in the EU?

Sovereignty, baby. The terms of the deals were never the problem. If the EU was a pure trading bloc, pure economics, then we wouldn't have voted to leave. The problem was the political integration.

It hurts us if we have to buy our oranges from further away; shipping costs money.

Hmm, kinda depends. How much do oranges cost from Brazil compared to Spain? How do oranges get from Spain to the UK? Ships are bigger than lorries. If we end up paying the same per orange, then it didn't hurt us at all, but Spain just lost a buyer for their produce.

That means when you buy an orange after Brexit you will be paying more for it than you were before.

Well we'll see about that, won't we? And even if we do pay more, how much more? 5%? I couldn't give a fuck about that. 50%? I'll eat apples instead.

I'm also not sure what the impact on Spain has to do with it. Did you vote for Brexit to help the UK or to hurt Spain?

I voted to leave a political union.

[Poopadoop]

Haha you called Canada "tiny".

Canada makes up 2.5% of our total trade. I call that tiny. But hey, get out your Brexit thesaurus and come up with a word that suits you better if you like. "World-beating?" "Sunlit uplands?" "Holding all the cards?"

Hmm, kinda depends. How much do oranges cost from Brazil compared to Spain? How do oranges get from Spain to the UK? Ships are bigger than lorries. If we end up paying the same per orange, then it didn't hurt us at all

A lot of hypotheticals here, including a rather implausible assumption that citrus fruits would be cheap to ship in a two-week trip in a refrigerated container ship over the Atlantic. But let's assume that Brazilian oranges are somehow cheaper to buy and ship here than oranges from Spain.

Why didn't we always buy our oranges from Brazil then? I'll give you a hint, 'cause they were cheaper from Spain because it is a) closer and b) they had no tariffs on their oranges; and also because they were fresher because it takes less time to ship from Spain than Brazil.

but Spain just lost a buyer for their produce.

There's a very good chance the increased price of oranges from Spain will not be so high as to make it worthwhile to buy them from somewhere further away, assuming we could find a seller. So basically we'll be paying more and it won't hurt Spain at all.

That'll show those Eurolibtards!

I voted to leave a political union.

You may have noticed by now that a significant part of that political union involves the largest trading bloc in the world through which we do half our trading. But hey, it's ok that we're imposing economic sanctions on ourselves because at least we can shoot up those pesky French fishing boats now! #MEGA

[Poopadoop]

Well we'll see about that, won't we? And even if we do pay more, how much more? 5%? I couldn't give a fuck about that. 50%? I'll eat apples instead.

Yes let's wait and see if 2+2 still equals 4 in Jan. And if it does we'll just suck it up and eat a less varied, and/or more expensive diet. Hurrah!

[OngBonga]

Canada makes up 2.5% of our total trade. I call that tiny.

Canada is less than 2.5% of the global population, so it's relatively large.

A lot of hypotheticals here, including a rather implausible assumption that citrus fruits would be cheap to ship in a two-week trip in a refrigerated container ship over the Atlantic.

Ok let's speculate. A lorry travelling from Spain to the UK, via Dover, is probably going to take 2 days. So that's 7 times faster. Can the ship hold more than 7 times the load of a lorry? I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes.

Lorries are refrigerated, too.

Why didn't we always buy our oranges from Brazil then?

idk, EU treaties that force us to give preference to EU member states? That's a guess.

You may have noticed by now that a significant part of that political union involves the largest trading bloc in the world through which we do half our trading.

So we have no choice but to be a part of a political union if we want to enjoy economic relations with our neighbours? This is the very problem with continent-wide trading blocs. You become trapped in an economic relationship that demands political concessions. It's like being married to someone you don't love because her parents are rich.

[Poopadoop]

Canada is less than 2.5% of the global population, so it's relatively large.

Completely irrelevant. But go on, tell me how this makes up for the EU.

Ok let's speculate. A lorry travelling from Spain to the UK, via Dover, is probably going to take 2 days. So that's 7 times faster. Can the ship hold more than 7 times the load of a lorry? I'm going to go out on a limb and say yes.

Lorries are refrigerated, too.



idk, EU treaties that force us to give preference to EU member states? That's a guess.

Keep trying.

So we have no choice but to be a part of a political union if we want to enjoy economic relations with our neighbours? This is the very problem with continent-wide trading blocs. You become trapped in an economic relationship that demands political concessions. It's like being married to someone you don't love because her parents are rich.

It's more like being married to someone who benefits you in many ways even though there's the odd thing about them you don't like, like how they make you put the toilet seat down again after you take a piss. And then divorcing them for no other reason than so you can reclaim your "sovereignty" to leave the toilet seat up when you take a piss. And then complaining about how they won't give you a good deal in the divorce. And then realising later that you're an idiot but being too stubborn to admit it.

[OngBonga]

Completely irrelevant. But go on, tell me how this makes up for the EU.

It doesn't, I'm just being picky about your use of the word "tiny".

It's more like being married to someone who benefits you in many ways even though there's the odd thing about them you don't like, like how they make you put the toilet seat down again after you take a piss.

Maybe that's how you feel about this "marriage". I don't. To me, it's more like a marriage I got into with an attractive Swedish girl with rich folks when I was young and stupid, ended up having kids, and then when they left home had to decide between being happy or wealthy. So you end up drinking yourself into a stupor to escape the grim reality of your sad existence.

Analogies are fun.

[OngBonga]

Heh, turns out the first EU citizens to get the vaccine are Spanish workers in Gibraltar.

[Poopadoop]

It doesn't, I'm just being picky about your use of the word "tiny".



Maybe that's how you feel about this "marriage". I don't. To me, it's more like a marriage I got into with an attractive Swedish girl with rich folks when I was young and stupid, ended up having kids, and then when they left home had to decide between being happy or wealthy. So you end up drinking yourself into a stupor to escape the grim reality of your sad existence.

Analogies are fun.

As usual, once all your #MEGA Brexit arguments get demolished you end up trying to argue over semantics and feelings. Too bad the facts don't change because of either of those things.

[OngBonga]

No I just don't think I take myself as seriously as you take yourself. The point about those analogies isn't semantics, it's how subjective the whole idea is. Of course you think it's marriage of benefit or whatever you said, while I consider it an unhappy marriage. We're just expressing our opinions in slightly more creative ways.

You blah about facts like it means something to me. It's completely irrelevant. I said at the beginning I didn't care about the economic consequences. We were getting more and more sucked into political integration of a superstate, not something I'm on board with. You are. Cool. Sorry you lost. Now if you're going to spend the next ten years going "I told you so" every time something bad happens to the economy, to someone who doesn't give a fuck about the economic consequences, it's going to be a miserable decade for you. Especially if you're stuck in a country you say you don't hate but complain about when they vote against your wishes, especially when there's a lovely clean lefty country like Canada that you could go to instead. I mean, I would actually move to Canada if I could, assuming a log cabin in the middle of buttfuck nowhere. You couldn't be further removed from the economic hellhole you choose to live in. Why do you stay here if you think we made such a terrible decision? I really don't get it. I can only assume you don't actually think we made that terrible a decision, you're just grumpy about not being able to go to France without faffing about with paperwork.

Our avatars are quite fitting, imo. I do imagine you to be grumpy faced when you're replying to me, while you can certainly imagine me sipping tea with a smirk while being a twat.

[Poopadoop]

I'll skip that wall of text and just assume it's got nothing to do with facts and all to do with your feelings.

Obviously you never researched what would happen when you voted for this. The sad bit is we all have to suffer for it, not just the Brexiters. The other sad thing is you'll probably never admit how bad an idea it was.

Even if the evidence is staring you in the face you'll find some corner of the internet that will give you some comforting bullshit to believe.

[OngBonga]

I can argue that you'll never admit how terrible an idea it is to build a European superstate. You'll instead say things like "it's not a superstate" and ignore the evidence to the contrary, like Merkel talking about an EU army. Even when they finally start building this army. You'll shift from "tin hat" to "why is it a problem".

When I voted for this, I did what research I could. That research revolved around how the EU works, how its democracy works, I obviously could not predict what would happen to the economy. I could only speculate, and argue that it was an opportunity for us to become less reliant on any single nation or bloc for our food. But I said then that sovereignty and democracy were more important. People like you turned sovereignty into a dirty word, but you can't do the same with democracy. You can pretend the EU is democratic, and maybe you can even convince yourself it is, but you're not convincing me. Or at the very least, it's not a form of democracy I find acceptable. No one party can control the EU, it is an extremely fractured coalition at best, and a one-party system at worst. Nothing has changed since I voted in this regard.

You say it's "sad" we all have to "suffer". I don't think you realise how much this statement undermines democracy. The whole point of democracy is that the majority make decision, whether they be "good" or "bad" (which are subjective terms). We have democracy because this is better than one individual or party from deciding what's best for everyone, from turning "good" and "bad" from subjective terms to objective ones.

[MadMojoMonkey]

People like you

Deep breath. You're talking to one person, not the boogeyman amalgamation of all the opinions you disagree with.
Try to find out how they are not like your preconceptions, rather than push them into the box of your preconceptions.

No one party can control the EU, it is an extremely fractured coalition at best, and a one-party system at worst. Nothing has changed since I voted in this regard.

Which is it? A system in which no single party has totalitarian-style control, or a system with one party that is in total control?

I don't recall your answer to the notion that what you describe as "not" democracy is exactly democracy - i.e. that people vote on things and no single voice gets more say than another. You seem to be arguing that this existing in the EU is somehow not democracy.

I'm sorry if you explained this and I forgot.

You say it's "sad" we all have to "suffer". I don't think you realise how much this statement undermines democracy. The whole point of democracy is that the majority make decision, whether they be "good" or "bad" (which are subjective terms). We have democracy because this is better than one individual or party from deciding what's best for everyone, from turning "good" and "bad" from subjective terms to objective ones.

Same question, though - since no single nation has more say than other nations in the EU, isn't that exactly what democracy is? Isn't the goal for people to form coalitions and compromise with each other to achieve a majority where a majority can be reached? Isn't the point that if there is no clear majority opinion, that nothing happens?

[OngBonga]

Which is it? A system in which no single party has totalitarian-style control, or a system with one party that is in total control?

It depends on your perspective. A bit of both. On the one hand, each country votes in MEPs, coming from all sides of the political spectrum, and on the other they have no actual influence because it's such a fractured coalition. Ultimately, it's the EU, there's only one EU, and there will always exist the EU. It plays the role of the state, except on the scale of a continent... hence, a superstate. The MEPs don't do a fat lot.

We have discussed this already. You compared it to a federal system like the USA. Only, in the USA, you have two clear parties, with two clear economic policies. It doesn't matter who you vote in as an MEP, the EU's economic policy isn't going to change. Minor details might, but the overall direction will not. You're not voting for an ideology, you're voting to decide who gets to vote about their massive regulations. And this is how is gets so regulated. What else are these MEPs going to do if they haven't got stupid shit like the shape of bananas to vote on?

Same question, though - since no single nation has more say than other nations in the EU, isn't that exactly what democracy is?

No. Democracy is putting the power into the hands of the people, not nation states.

Isn't the goal for people to form coalitions and compromise with each other to achieve a majority where a majority can be reached?

Or to form backroom friendships so you have greater influence. The UK doesn't have many friends, people still hate us for being such a successful empire. Between Germany and France, they have a great deal more influence than the UK. But this isn't really the point. The point is, we give power to people who are not under the democratic control of the UK public, which is why this is about sovereignty and democracy. And it's the same reason I support Scottish independence if they want it. And Catalonian. And any other nation. People don't want to be ruled from afar.

[CoccoBill]

I might have missed this memo, but how is/would the EU having it's own military (of some sort) be a bad thing?

[Poopadoop]

Germans airlifting food to truckers in Kent. French supplying them with covid tests so they can go to Europe.

What a bunch of assholes. Good thing we're out of that shithole Union. #MEGA



*Oh almost forgot, UNICEF feeding our hungry kids. Yeah, we're really that awesome.

[Poopadoop]

I might have missed this memo, but how is/would the EU having it's own military (of some sort) be a bad thing?

Not sure what's Ong view on this is, as he's never really stated a specific objection. But, some here oppose it out of fear it will be used aggressively and we'd somehow be forced to take part. Which, if true, would explain why we just made a massive increase in our military budget in the middle of a pandemic.

[Poopadoop]

Will need time to unpack the Deal, which is certainly going to be better than No Deal, but two things we can be certain of are that it won't be as good as the deal we are leaving, and that most people's opinion of it will be mainly informed by what they see in their favourite media.

[Poopadoop]

Goddamn Eurolibtards! We've got no use for your "facts." #MEGA

https://twitter.com/nmsonline/status...30513390264323

[CoccoBill]

Not sure what's Ong view on this is, as he's never really stated a specific objection. But, some here oppose it out of fear it will be used aggressively and we'd somehow be forced to take part. Which, if true, would explain why we just made a massive increase in our military budget in the middle of a pandemic.

Ok I see. Well yeah, I guess that's how military coalitions generally work. If one joins expecting others to protect them, but aren't ready to do the same for others, someone may object.

[Poopadoop]

The best rationale I can see for the EU Army is defensive against Russia. If say 15 countries join, then if one of them is invaded the others automatically join in. This would be particularly beneficial to a country neighboring Russia if Putin decides to Make Your Country Russian Again. In the long run it's a powerful deterrent against Putin, and it benefits the entire EU not to have Russia expanding onto your territory.

Having a unified army also means a standard set of equipment, tactics, hierarchy, a common language (ironically it would probably be English), and all the organisational advantages these would have over having a large number of separate militaries somehow trying to coordinate with each other.

It would also make a war between any two of the member countries essentially impossible.

And, it would actually make any aggressive use of such an army nearly impossible, as it would be hard to get 15 or whatever countries to agree that they should try to conquer another country. Who would propose such a thing? Germany? They've got so much war guilt they would never do that in 300 years. France? Italy? Seems unlikely. Sure, maybe Hungary would ask to invade Croatia or some dumb shit like that, but that'd get vetoed pretty fast. That's part of the idea. Like the EU itself, the EU Army would be a peace project.

Maybe that's the real reason the UK wouldn't want to join, because they'd prefer to keep their hands free for foreign adventures with their buddies the USA. Not sure that's a good enough reason to impose economic sanctions on ourselves, but hey, #MEGA is a powerful drug.

[MadMojoMonkey]

It's not like it's unprecedented for the UK to have a relationship with another nation wherein there is a defensive pact.
The UK basically has an offensive pact with the US in practice. If the US invades somewhere, the UK is part of that, either in logistics or direct support. At least, it seems that way. The "special relationship" and all that.

Anyone can argue this is a double-edged sword that increases relations with the US at the cost of other international ties. Pros and cons.

The same analysis would apply to the UK having a defensive (or any military agreement) with the greater EU (under the assumption that the EU has a standing military). There will be pros and cons, and where the people of the UK weight each of those is going to determine your cultural future.

[Poopadoop]

NATO is a defensive pact. No-one has argued that the fact much of the EU is part of NATO is a good reason to leave the EU (at least not yet).

It's perfectly fine in theory if the UK wants to be in an unstated offensive pact with the US, but not an overt defensive pact with the EU. The issue of how this relates to membership in the EU is somewhat opaque, however, since membership in the EU Army would be entirely voluntary. We could both be in the EU and join in the EU Army or not at our own discretion.

Also worth pointing out that the EU has never hindered us in joining the US in aggressive wars.

[OngBonga]

I might have missed this memo, but how is/would the EU having it's own military (of some sort) be a bad thing?

It depends on its role. If such a military is intended to replace national militaries, this is a terrible thing and it shouldn't need to be explained why. If it is complimentary, then we also have to ask what the point is, since we already have the UN and NATO. Since we already have military alliances, I have to assume that such an army would be intended to replace the militaries of nation states. This is exceptionally bad because it means foreign policy is no longer dictated by those who we put into power, instead unelected people will have massive control over a continent-scale military force. It also means that the means to defend a nation from invasion (not something that will likely ever happen but we should prepare for nonetheless) is taken away from the nation itself.

We don't need another UN or NATO alliance. I'm not huge on NATO and would quite happily see that replaced with a defensive bloc that potentially includes Russia, but I can live with it. NATO does not control the UK military. Handing military power to the EU, that is very much a huge no. It's further eroding the power of the nation state, it's deeper integration into a superstate.

[OngBonga]

The issue of how this relates to membership in the EU is somewhat opaque, however, since membership in the EU Army would be entirely voluntary.

The question is whether "voluntary" translates to a democratic choice for the population. If it goes to referendum, it will never happen.

[Poopadoop]

I have to assume that such an army would be intended to replace the militaries of nation states. This is exceptionally bad because it means foreign policy is no longer dictated by those who we put into power, instead unelected people will have massive control over a continent-scale military force.

lolwut?

It also means that the means to defend a nation from invasion (not something that will likely ever happen but we should prepare for nonetheless) is taken away from the nation itself.

It means that defense is multiplied by however much larger the EU Army is than the army of the member state.

We don't need another UN or NATO alliance. I'm not huge on NATO and would quite happily see that replaced with a defensive bloc that potentially includes Russia, but I can live with it. NATO does not control the UK military. Handing military power to the EU, that is very much a huge no. It's further eroding the power of the nation state, it's deeper integration into a superstate.

Do you seriously think the idea is to pool our militaries into one giant army and let some random European Army Council of Warlords decide what to do with it?

[Poopadoop]

The question is whether "voluntary" translates to a democratic choice for the population. If it goes to referendum, it will never happen.

By "voluntary" I mean that each member state would have the option to join or not join the EU Army. How it decides that is its own concern, though I imagine the EU member states themselves understand better than you what membership entails, so they wouldn't necessarily feel they need to put it to a referendum.

[Poopadoop]

But you've failed to answer how this relates to Brexit: Since the UK could decide for itself whether or not to join the EU Army, how does the hypothetical future existence of such a force diminish our sovereignty, and therefore require we bail out of the EU?

[OngBonga]

...though I imagine the EU member states themselves understand better than you what membership entails, so they wouldn't necessarily feel they need to put it to a referendum.

Democracy. Sovereignty. They really are both dirty words to you, aren't they?

Do you seriously think the idea is to pool our militaries into one giant army and let some random European Army Council of Warlords decide what to do with it?

If this isn't the plan, what's the point? We have the UN and NATO already.

[Poopadoop]

Democracy. Sovereignty. They really are both dirty words to you, aren't they?

If your leaders don't want your country to join the army, they don't have to. Seems pretty sovereign and democratic to me, assuming you live in a democracy where you get to vote for your leaders.

If this isn't the plan, what's the point? We have the UN and NATO already.

I already explained that to you. Standardized equipment, tactics, hierarchy, greater efficiency and coordination in battle. Do those things not seem reasonable to you, more so than having some rogue army run by bureaucrats in Brussels?

[Poopadoop]

Since the UK could decide for itself whether or not to join the EU Army, how does the hypothetical future existence of such a force diminish our sovereignty, and therefore require we bail out of the EU?

Still watiing for an answer to this, btw....

[OngBonga]

If your leaders don't want your country to join the army, they don't have to.

I mean this is an irrelevance because we've left, but this is not a decision solely for the government. It's either a referendum matter, or an election policy matter.

Seems pretty sovereign and democratic to me

Well it's not sovereign if it's handing power to an outside body, and it's not democracy if the government were to go ahead and do it without a referendum, and without it being an election policy. If it was clear that the government intended to join such an army, and they won an election on that basis, then ok, that's democratic. But it has to be a matter that the public get a vote on one way or another.

I already explained that to you. Standardized equipment, tactics, hierarchy, greater efficiency and coordination in battle. Do those things not seem reasonable to you, more so than having some rogue army run by bureaucrats in Brussels?

I mean, there's a huge difference between how much I trust the EU, and how much you trust the EU. And the problem will be when there are internal issues within the EU itself. The vast majority of the EU is already part of NATO, and those that aren't can certainly rely on the rest of the EU to defend them from an external threat. Just like the UK will provide unconditional defence for the likes of Iceland and the Faroe Islands. We simply cannot sit back and watch them be invaded by an enemy, which is why we occupied both of these territories in WWII.

Still watiing for an answer to this, btw....

Not being a member of the EU ensures we won't be a part of an EU army under any circumstance. Just like I do not trust the EU, I don't trust British political parties either. And you already seem to accept us joining without the public having any sort of say, based on the premise that we voted in the party who makes such a decision. I doubt you're the only one foolish enough to put blind faith in the UK govt and the EU for such a project.

[OngBonga]

I mean, an EU army is hardly the main reason to leave the EU. But this was always about sovereignty and democracy. Why the hell would you expect anyone who values sovereignty to be on board with an EU army? It's a further erosion of nation state sovereignty, it weakens a nation while strengthening the bloc. It makes it even more difficult to leave the EU in the future. I'm not sure why you're surprised that it's a relevant matter when we talk about EU membership.