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Milton Friedman on government and private enterprise

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  1. #76
    I've been responding to the usage of the word "decisive." I can't think of a word that describes the element of violence we're discussing.

    Violence does not have that great of a track record of "settling an issue" or "producing a definite result" except for in certain types of scenarios (typically when it's violence vs violence and one side loses). The most decisive way for me to get a McDonald's cheeseburger is not to jump over the counter and start punching people and forcing them to make me a cheeseburger.
  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    The most decisive way for me to get a McDonald's cheeseburger is not to jump over the counter and start punching people and forcing them to make me a cheeseburger.
    I don't see how this is related to the conversation.

    They want to sell you their cheeseburgers, so it's a perfectly moot point that you can find a cooperative way to get one of their cheeseburgers from them.

    The point is that when resolving conflicts, where no compromise is acceptable to either party, then what actually decides the outcome? What if you want to pay for your Mc D's cheeseburgers using Hardee's cheeseburger wrappers? I'm pretty sure that if you refuse to leave their establishment, and you demand they accept your trash as money, that there will be a violent outcome. Either you abandon your claim (changing the subject to something else entirely) or you will have no option other than to commit violence to coerce them to act in your favor, or the police will come to coerce you into acting in accordance with their favor.


    No one is making the argument that violence is the most equitable way to resolve issues. Nor are we saying that violence is a preferred method of interaction in our daily lives. We're only saying that all the other forms of conflict resolution break down when violence enters the picture. Violence wins as it trumps rational behavior. You can't reason with violence; you can only out-violent it or concede to it's demands.
  3. #78
    I agree with all of that. My issue was with the terminology. If we're looking for the most decisive way for me to get a cheeseburger from McDonald's, it isn't with violence.

    I don't deny the "ultimateness" of violence, or whatever it may be called. Where Rilla and I get into it is that he thinks this means there will always be one entity at the top of the violence food chain or a struggle to be at the top of the violence food chain; whereas I think there are situations where the top of the food chain isn't just one violent entity, but can be many entities that maintain peace for the purpose of mutual benefit.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 07-14-2016 at 03:30 PM.
  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I agree with all of that. My issue was with the terminology. If we're looking for the most decisive way for me to get a cheeseburger from McDonald's, it isn't with violence.
    You're thinking too small with the cheeseburgers and McD's because, as MMM said, McD's wants you to have the burger. You choose to agree to their terms for the trade. There's no need to consider escalating the dispute over the cheeseburger because there is no dispute. There's no need to worry about deciding anything. As an example, it completely misses the point.

    I don't deny the "ultimateness" of violence, or whatever it may be called. Where Rilla and I get into it is that he thinks this means there will always be one entity at the top of the violence food chain or a struggle to be at the top of the violence food chain; whereas I think there are situations where the top of the food chain isn't just one violent entity, but can be many entities that maintain peace for the purpose of mutual benefit.
    I think MMM put it better. Whatever the most decisive method is, that would be the basis of States. Just happens to be violence in the world we live in.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-15-2016 at 05:12 PM.
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  5. #80
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    Great example unfolding right now - what decides who's in charge of Turkey?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...rd-in-ankara1/
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  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    You're thinking too small with the cheeseburgers and McD's because, as MMM said, McD's wants you to have the burger. You choose to agree to their terms for the trade. There's no need to consider escalating the dispute over the cheeseburger because there is no dispute. There's no need to worry about deciding anything. As an example, it completely misses the point.
    Things were decided. It was decisive. I haven't misunderstood the point you are trying to make; I've shown how the way you have made it doesn't work.
  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Great example unfolding right now - what decides who's in charge of Turkey?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...rd-in-ankara1/
    I have never once declared that having violence might doesn't provide greater power. If you examine the details of this situation in Turkey more closely, it starts to help my argument that peace can be freely chosen. The Turkish military has a history of stepping in when the politicians get too authoritarian and dissembling of national and economic ideals. There is no reason to believe that a privately-funded security force couldn't exist for the same reasons.
  8. #83
    If it was true that the power at the top must necessarily be funded by mandate (taxes), how is it that the power is itself provided labor by voluntarism? What is unique about peoples' labor and intellectual capital that allows those to provide for security through voluntary choice that doesn't work for financial capital?
  9. #84
    Earlier MMM made one of the better points on the topic, that the real authority given to government comes from peoples' demand for government. This is the first thing I remember learning in a political science class. Government depends on legitimacy given to it by those it governs. It exists because people want it to exist. Its existence doesn't have to do with there being some phenomenon regarding human need for violence monopolies.
  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Things were decided. It was decisive. I haven't misunderstood the point you are trying to make; I've shown how the way you have made it doesn't work.
    Violence could have still decided the situation.

    Think of any situation where there is dispute without agreement and you'll see what you're missing.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I have never once declared that having violence might doesn't provide greater power. If you examine the details of this situation in Turkey more closely, it starts to help my argument that peace can be freely chosen. The Turkish military has a history of stepping in when the politicians get too authoritarian and dissembling of national and economic ideals.
    But it can only step in because its the military. Even when nonmilitary entites step in for coups, they have to do it violently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storming_of_the_Bastille

    There is no reason to believe that a privately-funded security force couldn't exist for the same reasons.
    Yes there is. Not every dispute can be settled through agreement or through an aligning of wants and demands with resources, and in those situations, violence still can decide. What happens when a privately-funded security force is all of the sudden best situated to decide the outcome of the biggest conflicts within or without of a society?
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Earlier MMM made one of the better points on the topic, that the real authority given to government comes from peoples' demand for government. This is the first thing I remember learning in a political science class. Government depends on legitimacy given to it by those it governs. It exists because people want it to exist. Its existence doesn't have to do with there being some phenomenon regarding human need for violence monopolies.
    There are people that expressly do not give the US gov't any legitimacy yet the gov't still has authority over them. I'm sure JKDS has heard a bunch of great stories about these kooks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Things were decided. It was decisive. I haven't misunderstood the point you are trying to make; I've shown how the way you have made it doesn't work.
    I think you changed the subject by talking about a situation without any conflict or disagreement then said that you resolved the potential conflict by not starting it.

    There's no conflict there. There's nothing to resolve. You decisively cooperated. That's off topic.
  14. #89
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    Any colony in history is another example of how gov'ts don't need the legitimacy of the people they govern.
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  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Violence could have still decided the situation.

    Think of any situation where there is dispute without agreement and you'll see what you're missing.
    You're equating a situation in which there is no effective conflict resolution except violence with every situation in which there is conflict.

    But it can only step in because its the military.
    It's the only force legitimate in the eyes of the people. This does not mean that the only way for people to view an entity as legitimate is for that entity to tax them.

    Even when nonmilitary entites step in for coups, they have to do it violently.
    I wouldn't have suggested otherwise.

    Yes there is. Not every dispute can be settled through agreement or through an aligning of wants and demands with resources, and in those situations, violence still can decide. What happens when a privately-funded security force is all of the sudden best situated to decide the outcome of the biggest conflicts within or without of a society?
    You're assuming that it is always more profitable to conduct security through coercion than through voluntarism.

    There are people that expressly do not give the US gov't any legitimacy yet the gov't still has authority over them. I'm sure JKDS has heard a bunch of great stories about these kooks.
    "The people" does not equate to "some of the people." "The people" more or less means "enough people with enough power to direct policy."
  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I think you changed the subject by talking about a situation without any conflict or disagreement then said that you resolved the potential conflict by not starting it.

    There's no conflict there. There's nothing to resolve. You decisively cooperated. That's off topic.
    I realized this not too long before you pointed it out. Good eye. The McDonald's example is not one so much of resolving conflict, but of being decisive. Examples that include both are innumerable, and I should have chosen one of them instead. The ways political parties choose nominees are examples of more decisively resolving conflict than using violence. A negotiation in a board room or at the car sales level are conflicts resolved most decisively without violence. Most families and friends do not use violence to resolve conflict most decisively.
  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You're equating a situation in which there is no effective conflict resolution except violence with every situation in which there is conflict.
    No. I'm just saying that of all the methods for resolving conflict, violence is the most decisive. There are situations where mutual agreement can fail, there are situations where even violence can fail (M.A.D.), but if you survey the whole space of possible conflicts and the methods which could decide their resolution - violence will come out as the most decisive.

    What do you think I mean by "violence is the most decisive method"?
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  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Most families and friends do not use violence to resolve conflict most decisively.
    Dad never spanked ya?
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  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Any colony in history is another example of how gov'ts don't need the legitimacy of the people they govern.
    I ain't making this up. There's a wiki on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_(political)

    In political science, legitimacy is the right and acceptance of an authority, usually a governing law or a régime. Whereas "authority" denotes a specific position in an established government, the term "legitimacy" denotes a system of government — wherein "government" denotes "sphere of influence". An authority viewed as legitimate often has the right and justification to exercise power. Political legitimacy is considered a basic condition for governing, without which a government will suffer legislative deadlock(s) and collapse. In political systems where this is not the case, unpopular régimes survive because they are considered legitimate by a small, influential élite.[1] In Chinese political philosophy, since the historical period of the Zhou Dynasty (1046–256 BC), the political legitimacy of a ruler and government was derived from the Mandate of Heaven, and unjust rulers who lost said mandate therefore lost the right to rule the people.
    My phrasing was slightly off in that it showed a bias towards democracy. Regardless, governments derive power from being legitimized by the views held by those with political influence. In the case of democracy, it's more or less majority of voters; in the case of monarchies, it's more or less political elites with majority capital, so to speak.
  20. #95
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    Colonial powers legitimized themselves violently.

    http://www.radiolab.org/story/mau-mau/

    Boom
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  21. #96
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    How did Mao maintain his mandate from the heavens during the cultural revolution?
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  22. #97
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    Why did the just ruler of China, with his mandate from heaven, choose to re-allow the opium trade that was destroying the wealth of his nation? Not because Britain ran some gun-boats up the Yangtze, I'm sure. It was probably an updated mandate from heaven that amended a prior one.
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  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    No. I'm just saying that of all the methods for resolving conflict, violence is the most decisive. There are situations where mutual agreement can fail, there are situations where even violence can fail (M.A.D.), but if you survey the whole space of possible conflicts and the methods which could decide their resolution - violence will come out as the most decisive.
    You're speaking in terms of "could" while I'm speaking in terms of "do." If I'm Superman, yeah, any conflict I have could be best resolved through violence, but I'm not Superman, and neither is anybody else. The vast majority of conflicts in the human world are resolved without violence. The fact that violence is typically the last resort for some conflicts doesn't make it the most decisive for all conflicts.
  24. #99
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    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-15-2016 at 07:24 PM.
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  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You're speaking in terms of "could" while I'm speaking in terms of "do." If I'm Superman, yeah, any conflict I have could be best resolved through violence, but I'm not Superman, and neither is anybody else. The vast majority of conflicts in the human world are resolved without violence. The fact that violence is typically the last resort for some conflicts doesn't make it the most decisive for all conflicts.
    Because we live in a low friction world, thanks to being such clever cats with long views of history and tremendous lessons to learn and structure to inherent from those that came before us. Just because its uncommon doesn't reduce its potency.
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  26. #101
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    Besides, you do use violence in common, every day life - or it's used against you - through the law. You don't follow laws because you agree with them, you follow them because they're enforced violently. Similarly, when someone wrongs you illegally, you can wield the law in your favor to violently resolve the situation in your favor. Someone steals from you, you can sic the cops on 'em.
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  27. #102
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    In fact, because you live in a nation of laws, you could say every dispute is mediated by violence. To take your example of families resolving things non-violently, in the rare case where the family does use violence, the State will show up and take action to stop them. When someone does try to use violence to buy a McBurger, the State will show up and take action to stop them. For every interaction, the option of violence has been taken off the table as best as the State can manage, and we're left to maneuver through the options that are left. You take the activities of the world under law and say, "see, we never needed violence!" without considering how things would be different without the State going to such lengths.

    "Do not quote laws to people with swords!" Pompey said as he rolled through Rome to help instate Sulla as sole dictator.

    I'd like to think in a world of private security, they'd say, "do not quote prices to men with guns!"
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-15-2016 at 07:33 PM.
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  28. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I'd like to think in a world of private security, they'd say, "do not quote prices to men with guns!"
    You conflate situations in which it is more profitable to be violent with situations in which it is more profitable to be peaceful.
  29. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    The fact that violence is typically the last resort for some conflicts doesn't make it the most decisive for all conflicts.
    Yes it does, and that's the point.
  30. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You conflate situations in which it is more profitable to be violent with situations in which it is more profitable to be peaceful.
    No one is saying that a violent resolution is a +EV solution. No one but you is talking about the economic value of using violence.*


    *EDIT: aside from the economic advantage of being the ruling power.
  31. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Yes it does, and that's the point.
    How is violence most decisive at resolving a car sales negotiation?

    No one is saying that a violent resolution is a +EV solution.
    Rilla is. I also am, at least in some instances. An entity doesn't try to take something over with violence if it perceives doing so is not at least neutral EV. In some cases, killing people and subjugating other people is +EV; in some cases maintaining peace and a goods and services market is +EV.
  32. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    How is violence most decisive at resolving a car sales negotiation?
    ... because dead salesmen offer free cars?

    Why do salesmen not fear that violence? Because they have the cops on their side. Many people may choose non-violent methods and pay for cars, but some people will not. Those who do not want to pay for cars will have few options to obtain cars in non-violent ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Rilla is. I also am, at least in some instances. An entity doesn't try to take something over with violence if it perceives doing so is not at least neutral EV. In some cases, killing people and subjugating other people is +EV; in some cases maintaining peace and a goods and services market is +EV.
    Well, you and rilla can have that conversation; I've not weighed in on it. I feel confident that rilla isn't arguing that violence gives the best outcome in general, merely that in some cases it is the most +EV as well as the most decisive (which I would agree with).

    At any rate: None of that matters in saying, "for any peaceful resolution, a violent event could have forced a one-sided result." It's not stipulating that one-sided results are good. It's just ... I already said it.

    Here:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    We're only saying that all the other forms of conflict resolution break down when violence enters the picture. Violence wins as it trumps rational behavior. You can't reason with violence; you can only out-violent it or concede to it's demands.
  33. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Rilla is. I also am, at least in some instances. An entity doesn't try to take something over with violence if it perceives doing so is not at least neutral EV. In some cases, killing people and subjugating other people is +EV; in some cases maintaining peace and a goods and services market is +EV.
    I absolutely am not. You're just hearing that for some reason. That's why I asked you what you think I mean by "most decisive".

    What I mean is that it ends the dispute. Whether the resolution of the dispute is +EV or not has nothing to do with it - violence is the mechanism that is most able to end disputes.

    Or as MMM puts it

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    At any rate: None of that matters in saying, "for any peaceful resolution, a violent event could have forced a one-sided result." It's not stipulating that one-sided results are good. It's just ... I already said it.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-16-2016 at 05:55 AM.
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  34. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I absolutely am not.
    I think I see now why you disagree with me so much. EV is integral to every choice. When you argue that an entity will choose violence to get something, you are also saying that the entity perceives greater EV by doing so.


    What I mean is that it ends the dispute. Whether the resolution of the dispute is +EV or not has nothing to do with it - violence is the mechanism that is most able to end disputes.
    My comment about EV was not regarding the statement that violence ends disputes. It was response to your hypothetical regarding how people would choose violence in the monopoly vs competitive security debate.
  35. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    ... because dead salesmen offer free cars?
    So, this whole thing is stemming from the usage of "decisive." I've taken it to mean "settling an issue" or "producing a definite result." You guys are thinking of it in terms of ultimateness, where if we assume everything else fails, then we use violence.

    If I am looking to "settle an issue" or "produce a definite result" regarding a car sales negotiation, I will do something like show up with enough money to pay for the car. What I will not do is show up with a gun and demand the car. I won't start punching the salesman. I won't rally a band of my buddies and try to take over the dealership. In the scenario of getting a car from a dealership, violence is not the most decisive method.

    I do not know why Rilla chose to use the word "decisive." I decided to point out why that word doesn't work because his usage of it could be informing his views. Granted, I haven't found a better word, and there doesn't seem to be a word that describes what he's thinking.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 07-16-2016 at 01:53 PM.
  36. #111
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    I'm speechless.

  37. #112
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    How I've felt for a few years.
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  38. #113
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    That's why you say it 5 ways today, and 5 other ways tomorrow.

    Kids are getting too lazy...
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  39. #114
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  40. #115
    I'm unsure what kind of point you're trying to make with that. The bias of the authors is not supported by the details of the article.
  41. #116
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    Not all comments on the internets are attacks against your personal beliefs. It's just an observational article.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  42. #117
    Okay, cool. Just checking.
  43. #118
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    But out of curiosity, what exactly is the bias of the editors and how do the details of the article not support them?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  44. #119
    The title is clickbait for the "Aha, ya need government" or "those selfish private profiteers" crowds. It uses phrases like "A dystopian world between privatized compounds" and "developers show a dismaying lack of civic responsibility beyond property lines."

    There's this:

    Look beyond those select properties — and into the city’s slums — and Gurgaon presents an object lesson in the limits of privatization. There, the residents suffer from power and electricity shortages, and the same unsafe and unsanitary conditions that shape daily life for so much of India’s urban poor.
    It doesn't actually show the limits of privatization. In fact this statement contradicts statements earlier in the article about how the privatization is important for the accommodation the economic desires of the masses of Indians.

    Now, having said that, I'll admit that some of my own bias came in with my initial reading of the article. I assumed it was for the purpose of making privatization look bad (probably due to the title) and I quickly read it, jumping over some lines, trying to get a sense of its theme without perusing. But now I more thoroughly read it and it has an all right amount of decent "statement of fact" in it and not as much editorializing as I initially thought. Overall, it reads to me like it was written from a handful of different perspectives. Regardless, it's an all right article. I'm not gonna harp on it.
  45. #120
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    You can make clickbait out of anything.
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  46. #121
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    I figured wuf would read it and start dancing a jig.

    It's a good example (well, 2 good examples) of how a privatized city can meet all of the needs which are commonly held to be something private companies would have no interest in meeting.


    Despite wuf's critique about the language describing the nearby slums, that's not the final word on the slums. The final word is that as these developments continue to grow, the private companies will be incentivized to develop more robust services. It's literally talking about how the current system supplies meet the current system demands, and as the system grows, the demands grow and from all appearances, those demands will be met with new supplies.


    IDK how wuf could even pretend that this is antithetical to his message. The tone? Who cares about tone? Wait.... people care about tone. I remember now. I have to remind myself that people care about tone. Oops. Carry on.
  47. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    IDK how wuf could even pretend that this is antithetical to his message. The tone? Who cares about tone? Wait.... people care about tone. I remember now. I have to remind myself that people care about tone. Oops. Carry on.
    Because I posted it.

    I can totally accept that private companies can be incentivized to meet the needs of the customers, even on a city scale. My skepticism stems from the fact that the goal of the private companies is not to deliver effective and high quality services to their customers, it is to create the impression that they are, while delivering what they can get away with for as little as possible. It's up to the morals and resources of the companies as of what they actually will deliver in the short term, and up to competition and capabilities wrt the long term.

    One could think of free markets as an evolutionary process, that through small adjustments gets towards an optimal outcome. Without regulations though, everything has to be "learned the hard way", and customers can get shafted for a long time during the learning process. I don't see a reason not to use preventative controls when we can.
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  48. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Because I posted it.

    I can totally accept that private companies can be incentivized to meet the needs of the customers, even on a city scale. My skepticism stems from the fact that the goal of the private companies is not to deliver effective and high quality services to their customers, it is to create the impression that they are, while delivering what they can get away with for as little as possible. It's up to the morals and resources of the companies as of what they actually will deliver in the short term, and up to competition and capabilities wrt the long term.
    It's the same with government and bureaucracy.

    One could think of free markets as an evolutionary process, that through small adjustments gets towards an optimal outcome. Without regulations though, everything has to be "learned the hard way", and customers can get shafted for a long time during the learning process. I don't see a reason not to use preventative controls when we can.
    I'm not sure how bureaucracy can bypass this.

    BTW evolution is a great way of looking at how competitive markets work.
  49. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It's the same with government and bureaucracy.
    It is not. A government is tasked to provide effective and high quality services, not to create return of investment for shareholders. Yes, the effective outcomes are often more similar, but the ultimate goals are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I'm not sure how bureaucracy can bypass this.
    By skipping the learning part and mandating a minimum acceptable level of service from the get-go.
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  50. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    It is not. A government is tasked to provide effective and high quality services, not to create return of investment for shareholders. Yes, the effective outcomes are often more similar, but the ultimate goals are not.
    Just like industry is expected to provide. Your perception about how industry includes creating an impression of providing is correct, but it also applies to government.

    By skipping the learning part and mandating a minimum acceptable level of service from the get-go.
    You only get that by learning.
  51. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You only get that by learning.
    Exactly. Our great advantage, as humans, is that we can also learn from the mistakes of others, and not just from those of our own. We can write our experiences down, and help out the early adopters of private city tech, bridges or raw milk to avoid the 1st gen bugs of the products. I'd like to, whenever I can, avoid those "fool me once" situations.

    The security of Microsoft software is a great example of the free market pushing them to create more secure products out of consumer demand. It's also a great example of this process taking years of public outcry and then over 10 years of implementation. What if there had been some mandatory security requirements all along?
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  52. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Exactly. Our great advantage, as humans, is that we can also learn from the mistakes of others, and not just from those of our own. We can write our experiences down, and help out the early adopters of private city tech, bridges or raw milk to avoid the 1st gen bugs of the products. I'd like to, whenever I can, avoid those "fool me once" situations.

    The security of Microsoft software is a great example of the free market pushing them to create more secure products out of consumer demand. It's also a great example of this process taking years of public outcry and then over 10 years of implementation. What if there had been some mandatory security requirements all along?
    Then Microsoft would have either had a harder time developing proper security or its other products would have suffered to enough degree that the entire product ended with lower quality by net. If outside regulation somehow made capital flow more efficiently, this would not be the case. But outside regulation doesn't do that and instead makes capital flow less efficiently.
  53. #128
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    Why are you assuming that increasing one aspect of a product's quality (=security) would drop other qualities by a larger amount? Even if it did, it wouldn't matter when the competition would have to abide by those same regulations.
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  54. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Why are you assuming that increasing one aspect of a product's quality (=security) would drop other qualities by a larger amount?
    I'm not assuming that. If it were the case that an outside regulator could set standards that are as efficient as those set by marketplace behavior and by producers and consumers themselves, then outside regulation would be just fine. But what actually happens is that outside regulation reduces efficiency because of how it alters the marginal cost-benefit decisions companies make. Companies choose to focus on what their analyses show would provide the most benefit. If a regulator comes in and says oh no you need to focus on this other thing, it almost always means that benefit will be sacrificed.

    Outside regulators do not assess costs and benefits of each companies as well as those companies do; you may agree that this is intuitive. If a whole bunch of voters write their congresspeople and say how much they want Microsoft to have better security yet when they go to the store they buy Microsoft less-secure products over similar more secure products, they are in actuality saying that they would prefer something else. If the government then takes the voters' word for it and jumps in and makes Microsoft focus on security, this would hurt Microsoft and its consumers as well as Microsoft's competitors. It would hurt Microsoft because the company would have to focus on something that consumers already demonstrated they value less than what Microsoft was previously engaging in, it would hurt consumers because those consumers lose out on the benefit they demonstrated they wanted, and it would hurt the competitor focusing on security since it would handicap their ability to compete with Microsoft by focusing on what that company deemed its biggest comparative advantage.

    Don't listen to what people say they want; listen to what they do.

    Even if it did, it wouldn't matter when the competition would have to abide by those same regulations.
    I mentioned one element for why this hurts the competition, but I'll add another. Outside regulations are increased costs. This stymies business, small ones more than big ones. Because outside regulation is inefficient, it increases costs, and this is a nightmare for everybody who isn't an already established wealthy incumbent. It cannot be repeated too often, China's economic miracle is the greatest economic miracle in human history, and it is due mainly to its government stripping away street-level business regulations. This has allowed anybody and everybody to compete at extremely low costs doing virtually anything they can think of. Western democracies do not have this anymore. It is very expensive to start a small business here, and this is pretty much just because of regulation.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 07-19-2016 at 08:26 PM.
  55. #130
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    Can we agree that you never once ever refer to the efficiency of markets as a rebuttal to the fact that they initially, before the evolutionary magic over long periods of time [maybe] happens, do not come with qualities such as safety, security, ecology, morality? Since that has been my point for a few years, and for years I have agreed that they may be efficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It would hurt Microsoft because the company would have to focus on something that consumers already demonstrated they value less than what Microsoft was previously engaging in, it would hurt consumers because those consumers lose out on the benefit they demonstrated they wanted, and it would hurt the competitor focusing on security since it would handicap their ability to compete with Microsoft by focusing on what that company deemed its biggest comparative advantage.
    A perfect example of consumers not being rational. For years the majority of consumers didn't know they wanted more secure software, since they were ignorant of the technical details or the consequences to themselves. No one wants to pay for security, even today, but without it all will be screwed. People will think that they're ok with some security risks, until they end up the target. Then there's outrage about how can this be, we assumed the thing you're selling is secure. I don't feel huge amounts of compassion or empathy towards [e.g.] software makers, who intentionally create insecure software to boost their profits.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Outside regulations are increased costs.
    Yes, those exact costs that SHOULD have been calculated in from the beginning, but were left out because the producer either was ignorant or negligent, and the consumer didn't have the expertise to demand for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It is very expensive to start a small business here, and this is pretty much just because of regulation.
    Because of bad regulation. I'm the first to admit bad regulations exist, but that doesn't mean good or indeed necessary regulations cannot.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  56. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Can we agree that you never once ever refer to the efficiency of markets as a rebuttal to the fact that they initially, before the evolutionary magic over long periods of time [maybe] happens, do not come with qualities such as safety, security, ecology, morality? Since that has been my point for a few years, and for years I have agreed that they may be efficient.
    Free markets love those four qualities you stated they don't. The free market (to the degree that we have one) already spends way more time on those than the government does.

    A perfect example of consumers not being rational.
    It's the economics textbook definition of rational.

    For years the majority of consumers didn't know they wanted more secure software, since they were ignorant of the technical details or the consequences to themselves. No one wants to pay for security, even today, but without it all will be screwed. People will think that they're ok with some security risks, until they end up the target. Then there's outrage about how can this be, we assumed the thing you're selling is secure. I don't feel huge amounts of compassion or empathy towards [e.g.] software makers, who intentionally create insecure software to boost their profits.
    Regardless, if it made things more inefficient, we are all worse off because of it.

    On a different note, it is possible for outside security regulations to get it right. A broken clock is right twice a day after all. Still, if this happened, it would only be because the outside regulations created greater efficiency.

    Yes, those exact costs that SHOULD have been calculated in from the beginning, but were left out because the producer either was ignorant or negligent, and the consumer didn't have the expertise to demand for it.
    "Should" according to whom? Businesses operate on the margins. They can't just up their costs without an equal or greater rise in benefit without suffering. Consumers also operate on the margins. They buy the products they think provide them the greatest marginal benefit. If they choose a less secure product over a more secure product, they demonstrate what "should" really means. This type of thing plays out billions of times every day. People by large choose Windows PCs over Macs partly because they do not value the marginal benefit of Mac security over the marginal benefit of other elements of Windows PC. Taking this away is throwing a monkey wrench into the economy. This is what competition means. On the flip side, people leave all sorts of products because they're less secure than the competition. This was part of my consideration when I switched from yahoo mail to gmail.

    Think in terms of what somebody is willing to produce and what somebody is willing to pay for. That's how you find what "should" happen. It's a concrete measure.

    Because of bad regulation. I'm the first to admit bad regulations exist, but that doesn't mean good or indeed necessary regulations cannot.
    The more bad regulation you get rid of the more you're gonna find there's still bad regulation to get rid of.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 07-20-2016 at 01:37 PM.
  57. #132
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    I'm sorry, I was using the dictionary definitions of "rational" and "should", not the economist versions. As in, bridges should not collapse, milk shouldn't contain deadly pathogens and software shouldn't be full of vulnerabilities, even if unaware consumers would still like to buy them. A rational consumer would not.
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  58. #133
    We're thinking in the same terms. Inherent to these terms is cost.

    Car accident deaths are a great tragedy. What costs are we willing to take on to avoid this tragedy? 5 extra dollars per person to totally eliminate car accident deaths? Absolutely. $100 per person? That'll cost the economy $700B, but by net it would easily save far more than that. But what about $1M per person? This would cost the global economy $7x10^15 in order to eliminate car accident deaths. This would be terrible idea even though it could save lives by net.

    The assessment of safety is an assessment of value, of benefit-cost. The more efficient of tools used in an economy, the greater the net benefit, which includes safety, those in the economy will have.
  59. #134
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    Yeah I'm well aware, I do risk management for a living. What you're saying is that consumers know better what's good for them than experts, and I wholeheartedly disagree. Efficiency, ROI, low TCO, capital flow, shareholder value and whatever else mean nothing, if the goods and services don't fulfill minimum standards on the four criteria. Relying solely on free markets they don't, unless consumers demand for them AND it's good for the business, AND the companies do not manage to hide what they're actually doing, AND even then, only after time has passed and shit has hit the fan enough times to create sufficient public outcry. Getting things right _eventually_ is not good enough, when we can enforce standards to make them good enough to start with.
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  60. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    Yeah I'm well aware, I do risk management for a living. What you're saying is that consumers know better what's good for them than experts
    I'm not saying that. I'm saying that individuals know better what's good for them when it comes to net of each small decision than bureaucrats do. I have pulled this idea from experts in economics. The biggest economics expert I know of designed his life's work around this idea (Milton Friedman).

    Expertise is nothing to sneeze at. Consumers wisely choose to pay for expertise on a regular basis. Buying food, cars, plumbing -- consumers are paying for things they know others do better than they do.
  61. #136
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    So if a bureaucrat uses an expert opinion in creating policy, the problem is solved. I suppose we're done here then.
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  62. #137
    Bureaucrats are less efficient at doing so.
  63. #138
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    Thoughts on "The Jungle" by Upton Sinclair and the creation of the FDA?

    The food and drugs being sold to consumers by the unregulated, free market were killing people.
  64. #139
    I'm not well-versed in that specifically. The most related thing I know is that Thaddeus Russell, a historian whose first book was about Hoffa era labor, claims that the narrative that regulation helped the working class rise out of sweatshop-like conditions is not accurate. His thesis is an economic one, but it's different than you'd think. It involves business owners making working conditions better simply because doing so increased productivity a whole bunch.

    I just did some brief reading on the subject, apparently working conditions were what Sinclair's book was about (even though it seems historical documents don't support the book's narrative), but the government responded with food regulations, which apparently Sinclair did not support because he thought they were too burdensome. Neato.

    I find it unlikely that the FDA has been a net good.
  65. #140
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    FDA approVal is probably my #1 priority when deciding what food or drug to use. I will never use a non-fda approved drug, for example.
  66. #141
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    It's not that the stuff approved by the FDA isn't up to proper standards. It's that the approval process is so inefficient and wasteful, in time and money, that many great products are delayed for years, or never see the light of day, or worse, are never conceived of in the first place. The approval process erects such a huge barrier to entry that only multi-billion dollar companies can afford to push their shit through. The unseen factors are hard to quantify, but it's likely that the FDA has resulted in untold millions of deaths by delaying life-saving drugs from market.
    Last edited by Renton; 07-21-2016 at 05:46 AM.
  67. #142
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    ^Yeah, a shame. Wouldn't it be nice to live in a perfect world where all producers took pride in having the safest products, and we wouldn't need regulations? Quite literally a utopian idea.
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  68. #143
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    Or a world in which goods are produced freely and there are privately-run watchdogs that profit by giving products their stamp of approval or disapproval. As ever, I'm not arguing for no regulation, only against state-based regulation. Also, my suggestion isn't utopian. It is merely a counter to the dystopia that is currently taking place. There's never going to be a perfect solution.
    Last edited by Renton; 07-21-2016 at 08:16 AM.
  69. #144
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    It is a tough process, as it should be. Human beings are extraordinarily complicated, and great efforts should be made to ensure a pill won't fuck you up.

    Im hesitant to believe the statement that the fda has cost lives. Even if true, it doesn't take into account the number of lives saved by them.
  70. #145
    This post got seriously long, but I think it's a good one. I tried illustrating scenarios to better paint a picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Im hesitant to believe the statement that the fda has cost lives. Even if true, it doesn't take into account the number of lives saved by them.
    I have an n=1 that I think can exemplify the rationale for why the FDA may not be saving more lives than a competitive market for food safety would. This isn't about the FDA but the Washington State Department of Health (WSDH).

    Ever since I've been an early teen, I've probably averaged 80 meals a year at small, hole-in-the-wall teriyaki joints. I love the food, but there are drawbacks. I've had food poisoning from them maybe 15 times. My friend who used to join me on occasion once got food poisoning so bad he was bed ridden for a week and it probably could have killed him. These were not fly-by-night restaurants. They were under the WSDH jurisdiction and were in well-populated commercial areas. But clearly the WSDH was not doing its job. I can extrapolate from my experience that the thousands of tiny, Asian family owned restaurants in the region were not being properly investigated and regulated by the WSDH.

    Why is this important? Because the WSDH is in charge. The government stripped me and everybody else of our responsibility to ensure our own safety. The government took our taxes and fees and monopolized the food safety market, and it gave every indication that it was living up to its stated standards. We had no choice but to trust the food was safe. But clearly in my case the government was not trustworthy and I got sick many times and my friend almost died.

    Contrast this to what things would look like if the government was not involved in food safety. The market would be populated with multiple food safety companies, each with their own techniques, but all with the goal of getting the customers of food companies to trust the safety of the food they brand. Instead of living in a region with just your state's health department in charge, you may see something like just three safety brands: Safe Food Inc, Eat Safe, and HealthNow. Each of these companies specializes in food safety and they set deals with food providers that allow the safety companies to monitor and manage the food handling practices so that they will put their stamp of approval on the product.

    Let's say that over the course of my life, I once got sick from a Safe Food Inc branded food, or I know a guy who did, yet I haven't had any bad experiences with Eat Safe or HealthNow. In that case, when I go to a small teriyaki restaurant, I'm going to be looking for their brand. These restaurants are all over the place, sometimes two or three to a lot, so if I walk into one and I don't see an Eat Safe or HealthNow brand on their menu or window or whatever, I'll go to one that does. In the case of a private food safety market, I have reasonable choice to affect my own health, but in a monopoly I do not.


    On a related but different note, this would allow for more innovation in the market and would improve quality while reducing prices. Because of price variation, where the quality of the food safety branding is reflected in the price of the food, the safety companies would be competing with each other to be most efficient. For example, let's assume the only difference between Kroger and Winco is that Kroger is branded by Eat Safe and Winco is branded by HealthNow, yet the price difference in their foods is approximately what they are today. If the perception among consumers is that they do not get sick any more often from Winco than from Kroger, they'll start flocking to Winco at the expense of Kroger simply because they'll be getting the same product for lower price. Eat Safe would be in a fight for its life to get its costs down (without disturbing quality) in order to keep Kroger as a customer.

    Or if we're talking small businesses, where an owner may not pay for safety branding in the first place, it's still a viable (and sometimes necessary) strategy. Let's say you are poor and you open a small teriyaki restaurant in the cheaper part of town just across from another teriyaki restaurant, one that's branded by Eat Safe. You know that customers won't easily choose your restaurant over one that pays for Eat Safe inspections and protocols; however, you have a strategy. You already know how to not poison your customers with poorly handled food, and you make food as good as the one across the street. Your strategy is that because you're not paying for inspections and protocols, you can offer the same quality product for cheaper. Everything on your menu is $.75 cheaper. You advertise that on a sign out front, and you get the occasional customer who is willing to take the tiny risk on you because he thinks that if you're legit he'll be saving $2.25/wk. Over time you build up a customer base of people who, for whatever marginal reason, decided to eat at your restaurant despite your lack of safety branding. You're doing so well that you want to expand. You can now afford safety branding, but maybe you'll decide to run things differently because you think you can create a chain of restaurants that performs safety measures internally while creating its customer base off your impeccable record and cheaper prices. This is but one of the uncountable iterations of how a free market of food safety allows innovation that makes the world a better place.


    I could go into detail regarding how things would work if you're selling snake-oil and you harm people, but this post is too long so I'll only do that if somebody wants to hear it.
  71. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    It is a tough process, as it should be.
    How tough should it be? How do you even begin to approach the answer to that question?

    On a related note, if someone wants to take risks with his body (as with taking an FDA disapproved drug), who are you to tell them that they can't? I'm pretty sure most of the liberals that take part in these discussions are against drug prohibition. How is this any different?

    A free market for drugs and supplements would result in the process being exactly as tough as it needs to be to meet the needs of the people at large. People like JKDS who value an approval process would only buy stuff that is approved by a reputable watchdog. Others who have different values would take risks, as would be their right. Doctors would weigh in with their expertise, steering their patients in the direction of products for which they deem the benefits to exceed the risks and costs.
  72. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Im hesitant to believe the statement that the fda has cost lives.
    This wasn't the FDA, but it's along the same lines.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#United_States_ban

    Critics argue that limitations on DDT use for public health purposes have caused unnecessary morbidity and mortality from vector-borne diseases, with some claims of malaria deaths ranging as high as the hundreds of thousands[118] and millions.
  73. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    This wasn't the FDA, but it's along the same lines.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#United_States_ban
    How many people died of diabetes-complications behind the high-carb low-fat diet guidelines that had us eating dessert for breakfast?

    You can measure lost human lives behind any choice by a high enough power.
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  74. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    On a related note, if someone wants to take risks with his body (as with taking an FDA disapproved drug), who are you to tell them that they can't?
    A father to a son. Is that beyond the claim? A reclaimed addict to another addict? Is that beyond the claim? Someone who knows to someone who doesn't? Is that still beyond the claim?

    Are we to assume that everything worth knowing can be given in an instant? That sometimes the hard lessons need not be learnt? Or need to be learnt again at the same expense? That sometimes the world that came before has something to teach you, but you can't learn it without someone insisting you do?
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 07-22-2016 at 07:53 PM.
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  75. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    How tough should it be? How do you even begin to approach the answer to that question?

    On a related note, if someone wants to take risks with his body (as with taking an FDA disapproved drug), who are you to tell them that they can't? I'm pretty sure most of the liberals that take part in these discussions are against drug prohibition. How is this any different?

    A free market for drugs and supplements would result in the process being exactly as tough as it needs to be to meet the needs of the people at large. People like JKDS who value an approval process would only buy stuff that is approved by a reputable watchdog. Others who have different values would take risks, as would be their right. Doctors would weigh in with their expertise, steering their patients in the direction of products for which they deem the benefits to exceed the risks and costs.
    All I hear from all of this is that you want to try everything tenaciously.

    I think that's basically been the way of things since life took hold.
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