Gun Debate (Lukie wants the kingest of nats to chime in)

[a500lbgorilla]

Well, I think it's clear that if anyone were to be confused on any pieces of the 2nd amendment, I would be he.

I need something explained to me as I've never studied constitutional law but how does an amendment to the constitution, a rule applying to the federal gov't, prevent states or cities from regulating guns?

I was always under the assumption that guns are regulated. In some states background checks are required at gun shows. In others there are waiting periods for purchasing weapons from stores. In others still you need to register weapons with local law enforcement. Locking devices must be sold with guns. Minors can't own guns... etc. How is the second amendment preventing your state from becoming more like Canada?

[boost]

I will have to look into the details, but I know that the ban that many major metropolitan areas had on handguns was struck down by the supreme court as being unconstitutional.

Also, when the law was written, "the right to bear arms" meant one thing.. owning a musket. Now "the right to bear arms" could conceivably extend to shoulder launched anti-aircraft weapons, and so the amendment is interpretted as "the right to bear arms... but we will tell you which ones we deem to be reasonable." So your right is not removed, you can still own a gun, just not many specific guns. I do not believe there is anywhere in the U.S. that has outright banned firearms, that would be unconstitutional.


Also, bear in mind that while the original intention was to check a potential tyranny, it was not expressly written in that way. And as we have covered, actually checking the perceived tyranny is illegal. So the legislator can ban certain guns (fully auto assault rifles for example) on the basis that there is no reasonable legal use for the weapon.

[wufwugy]

With free reign on reforming gun laws all I would do is strongly regulate and require documentation for who can buy, sell, and possess all 2012+ firearms. There would be no recall, and lots of people would still be able to buy guns. The difference is that criminal access would be gradually pinched

[a500lbgorilla]

With free reign on reforming gun laws all I would do is strongly regulate and require documentation for who can buy, sell, and possess all 2012+ firearms. There would be no recall, and lots of people would still be able to buy guns. The difference is that criminal access would be gradually pinched

I support all of this. And I support banning 30 round mags. And I support all sorts of regulations. If your state doesn't want anything to do with guns, I don't think the Supreme Court or the Constitution should get in the way of that.

I thought the 2nd amendment was a check on the federal gov't alone. If your state wants to regulate to hell gun ownership, so long as you have the votes, I support it.

[boost]

I support all of this. And I support banning 30 round mags. And I support all sorts of regulations. If your state doesn't want anything to do with guns, I don't think the Supreme Court or the Constitution should get in the way of that.

I thought the 2nd amendment was a check on the federal gov't alone. If your state wants to regulate to hell gun ownership, so long as you have the votes, I support it.

Right, but that can't be done because of the second. Although a state is sovereign in many ways, it cannot enact laws that revoke constitutional rights. The second does not say that each state can allow their residents to bear arms, it says that as Americans we can bear arms. And as I mentioned before, even municipal laws banning handguns have been repealed, even though they don't outright ban guns.

[a500lbgorilla]

Right, but that can't be done because of the second. Although a state is sovereign in many ways, it cannot enact laws that revoke constitutional rights. The second does not say that each state can allow their residents to bear arms, it says that as Americans we can bear arms. And as I mentioned before, even municipal laws banning handguns have been repealed, even though they don't outright ban guns.

I'd bet Maryland could.

"While the Declaration of Rights does say that "a well regulated Militia is the proper and natural defence of a free Government," it does not guarantee a right to bear arms. This makes the Maryland Constitution one of the very few state constitutions that lacks the equivalent of the federal Second Amendment."

Maryland Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just a guess though, but it seems like a lot of states also place the individual right to bear arms as a restriction on their state powers.

[a500lbgorilla]

The Constitution of Maryland contains no provision protecting the right to keep and bear arms. The State preempts some local firearm regulations, though local governments may regulate firearms with respect to minors and areas of public assembly. Annapolis, Anne Arundel County, Montgomery County, Gaithersburg, and Baltimore are known to have local firearm regulations.[10][138][139]
The Maryland State Police maintain a registry of "regulated firearms" that are allowed to be sold within the state. Dealers must forward the manufacturer-included shell casing in its sealed container to the Department of State Police Crime Laboratory upon sale, rental, or transfer of a "regulated firearm" for inclusion in their ballistics database, known as the Integrated Ballistics Identification System (IBIS).[138][139]
Detachable magazines capable of holding more than 20 rounds may not be manufactured or sold, though they may be possessed. Certain pistols are banned and are defined as "assault pistols." Any of the "assault pistols" on the list are lawful to possess only if they were registered prior to August 1, 1994.[10] Only handguns on the official handgun roster may be sold in the state. Private sales of "regulated firearms," which includes handguns, are prohibited. A person must obtain a safety training certificate prior to purchasing "regulated firearms" and present that certificate prior to each purchase. With some limited exceptions, only one "regulated firearm" may be purchased in any 30-day period. Handguns manufactured on or before December 31, 2002 must be sold or transferred with an external safety lock. Handguns manufactured after December 31, 2002 may only be sold or transferred if they have an internal mechanical safety device.[138][139]
Firearms are prohibited from certain places, including schools and demonstrations. Carrying a handgun, whether openly or concealed, is prohibited unless one has a permit to carry a handgun or is on their own property or their own place of business. The Maryland State Police may issue a permit to carry a handgun at their discretion and based on an investigation.[138][139]

It seems like Maryland could go to as many lengths to regulate gun ownership as it's legislators see fit.

Gun laws in the United States (by state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though, I would personally be desirous of more states having these apparent latitudes.

And as the don't seem to have a provision, New York (and beyond that New York City) seems to swing the lumber on gun regulation.

[boost]

No, absolutely not. The U.S. constitution always supersedes state constitutions. So while the state retains the right to regulate which firearms someone may own (and as the handgun issue has shown, this doesn't always fly) they cannot ban firearm ownership outright. That would be in conflict with the second amendment.

Its the same a state that did not have something in its constitution explicitly banning slavery. That doesn't mean you can own slaves there. And if a state did pass legislation setting up a framework for legalized slavery, the supreme court would smite it with its mighty gavel of judicial pwnage.

[wufwugy]

Yes SCOTUS rulings are the final say and law of the entire country

Which is why the worst part of the already corrupt right-wing majority of the SCOTUS cheating the election for Bush instead of Gore was that the Bush presidency gave us cuntbags Roberts and Alito

I would double down on all the bad of W in exchange for getting Gore or Kerry nominations

[a500lbgorilla]

So what are the strictest regulations a state could place on gun ownership that does not violate the 2nd amendment?

edit NYC has a no-carry law. That's basically as good as I think you'll get. If you can own guns but they need to stay on private property - that seems like an acceptable compromise. How do NYC's regulations fall short for you? Gun laws in the United States (by state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I didn't think the 2nd amendment was federal law, I thought it was constitutional law. I know that federal laws rule the land but I thought it was simply a law which ruled the federal gov't.

[wufwugy]

Any state law that challenges constitutional law will find its way to a SCOTUS ruling. No question. Unless the Chief Justice is so incredibly corrupt....

[a500lbgorilla]

McDonald v. Chicago - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5-4, yeah, I don't like this ruling. But it's a 14th amendment, 2nd amendment and supreme court mish-mash and not simply an issue of the 2nd amendment.

edit well nevermind, the 14th just says that the BoR is basically the bill of rights for all the states, so I guess it is basically a 2nd amendment problem. Maybe the 2nd amendment should be repealed and leave the individual states to decide if they want to keep their individual state provisions for gun ownership.

In any case, I'm going to do something else for a while.

[spoonitnow]

No permit is required to carry a handgun openly in North Carolina.

North Carolina
Fuck Yeah

[spoonitnow]

OH YEAH OPENCARRY.ORG UP IN THIS MOTHERFUCKER

[spoonitnow]

HAHAHAHAH OH SHIT

[Lukie]

With free reign on reforming gun laws all I would do is strongly regulate and require documentation for who can buy, sell, and possess all 2012+ firearms. There would be no recall, and lots of people would still be able to buy guns. The difference is that criminal access would be gradually pinched

sounds about right

[surviva316]

The school's hunter's safety team has won the National Junior Youth Hunter Education Challenge, a National Rifle Association sponsored event, six times: 1989, 1990, 2005, 2006, 2007,2008 and 2009.[18]

How is it that guns and math just never seem to get along?

[spoonitnow]

How is it that guns and math just never seem to get along?

someone probably just edited to throw in the year and didn't read the rest of the entry

[kiwiMark]

inorite, that's not 18 years at all.

[BennyLaRue]

I would imagine the kids found out about sniffing glue in 1991? And finally ran out in 2004 or so?

[DropTheBanana]

Utah House passes bill naming state gun - Salt Lake City Political Buzz | Examiner.com

[Lukie]

So what are the strictest regulations a state could place on gun ownership that does not violate the 2nd amendment?

edit NYC has a no-carry law. That's basically as good as I think you'll get. If you can own guns but they need to stay on private property - that seems like an acceptable compromise. How do NYC's regulations fall short for you? Gun laws in the United States (by state) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I didn't think the 2nd amendment was federal law, I thought it was constitutional law. I know that federal laws rule the land but I thought it was simply a law which ruled the federal gov't.

i'm mostly a supporter of ccw and carry laws, but having been to nyc a couple times i will say this: in no way whatsoever should citizens be carrying guns in nyc. basically, there are masses of people everywhere. it's much different than rural areas, suburbs, or even most other major metropolitan areas. (i think)

[wufwugy]

Back to one of my earlier points, I think a great case can be made for firearms actually harming revolution.

For example, an analysis of historical and current revolutions shows that the vast majority of them require diplomacy that turns the current police/military against the ruling politicians. There's never a "war", but a struggle for the sympathies of the police. Bringing firearms into it on the other side creates a very real war. While war can provoke revolution, I believe that it only does so a tiny minority of the time. It mostly will create mass deaths like in Civil War or gridlock like in Korean War

The 2nd is bad law. Focusing on rights that create interdependencies and sympathies with the people and the rulers is what gets the job done. The 2nd was a hypothesis that I don't believe has withstood its tests since created

Keep in mind that democracy is a government made up by the people for the people. When you're actually democratic, there is no use for civilian arms since the ruling is effectively civilian itself

[Jack Sawyer]

Regarding the To Defend Myself From (Roguish) Big Brother argument:

America's most in-demand police vehicle is a ten-officer 16,000-pound armored tank that takes bullets like Superman and drives 80 mph. The federal government buys dozens each year for local police departments.

Jalopnik: Obsessed With The Cult Of Cars


And those are just the cops. Thinking that you can somehow beat these guys if they ever turn rogue just because you legally own a handgun (or an entire collection of handguns) is just wishful thinking at best.
At some point, it simply becomes a case of how many 5yo can you take on, with the government guys being the adult.

[a500lbgorilla]

Yes, but no longer capably serving one of its original purposes isn't grounds for the repeal of the 2nd amendment. It's also not grounds for defense of it.

And also, I just want to further slip on my crazy hat and say, you're all assuming that it will clearly be a case of some redneck families and their guns vrs the gov't with full control over the military and law enforcement. Could it never be the people and the police vrs the gov't with a military that doesn't agree? Or some other strange circumstance of the future?

Did Egypt not just have its pro-Mubarak police force and a pro-Egyptian people military situation?

[mbiz]

they should make a second.2 amendment suited to contemporary society, stating that every citizen has the right to bear a predator drone

[a500lbgorilla]

RC Tricopter shooting hydrogen-filled balloons is the coolest thing you will see all day » Coolest Gadgets

[DropTheBanana]

^^
So fucking awesome! Me and some friends used to have roman candle wars when we were younger. This shit would take it to a whole new level!!

[boost]

Check these out... a friend of a friend built this...






/hijack

[CoccoBill]

A coup d'état without the support of the military has never succeeded. That's a fact, look it up.

[manfredi]

I'm guess I'm late to the party, but FWIW, I've carried a gun every day for the past few years with no ill effects. I usually carry a .380 in my pocket, when I'm at work (so nobody sees it and freaks out) or a .357 or 9mm if I'm out and about in the evening.

I think it's safe to say that normal people only carry a gun for worst-case-scenarios. A bullet is usually the most practical/effective way to stop a criminal who is doing something that is unacceptable (maiming or murdering someone). Karate isn't gonna get the job done. Nor mace, or a Taser.

While it is possible to imagine scenarios in which an unarmed person might wish that they had a firearm with them, I have never encountered a scenario that left me wishing I had left mine at home. If I don't need to shoot someone, I leave it in my pocket or holstered on my belt. No, I've never shot anyone.

Oh, yeah... whoever it was that carries a .25 ACP... why don't you get a decent gun?