Should be noted: the Starks are fuuuuuuuuuucked. Like Eddard fucked
Let's see you have
- Bran and Rickon heading north
- Winterfell burned up and possibly vacant
- Cat no longer respected by Robb
- Robb possibly not being able to cross the bridge now
- Loras will probably be made the leader of a Tyrell army now fighting Robb
- Jaime gonna be back in KL soon
- Jaime will probably try to recruit Brienne because he saw how damn badass she is and how loyal. She will resist, but then killing Stannis will be put to the equation, and Brienne will know she's not breaking her vow since they're not to hold her back from Stannis
- Flawed Man may actually be betraying Robb, perhaps that could by why Winterfell burned. His son cut a deal with the Greyjoys and burned the place and are gonna go back to Robb's encampment for a coup. This would work marvelously for the story given Robb's recent marriage decisions
- Sansa will unwittingly be wrapped around Littlefinger's finger
The burning of winterfell confused me aswell, but I just assumed this was something to be explained later. They never showed anything about the people doing the siege, so it looked to me like they did it after taking over/back winterfell, for whatever reason to be explained later.
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Arya is probably the most well-off Stark ATM
I would say so, she has the ultimate trump card to turn the tide for her lineage, the God of Death is in her pocket.
Oh I think I figured out a big reason why I didn't like this ep as much as I should have
Compare the first scene of the entire show with the last so far. I think you'll notice some big differences. The series opener was extremely well put together, and made the Walkers creepy as fuck. I was on the edge of my seat for that
But the scene with the Walkers in the finale wasn't anything other than straightforward and simple, with cgi appearing partially cartoony. The difference in the awesomeness of the first Walker scene and second Walker scene is truly night and day
Oh I think I figured out a big reason why I didn't like this ep as much as I should have
Compare the first scene of the entire show with the last so far. I think you'll notice some big differences. The series opener was extremely well put together, and made the Walkers creepy as fuck. I was on the edge of my seat for that
But the scene with the Walkers in the finale wasn't anything other than straightforward and simple, with cgi appearing partially cartoony. The difference in the awesomeness of the first Walker scene and second Walker scene is truly night and day
Again. A solid point. A bunch of no ones with a high tension situation against some mysterious evil... eventually each dies in a meaningful way; in either the short or long run.
But again, I don't feel like this possible improvement on the episode works against it. Episode one needs to draw us in. Episode 10 season 2 needs to drive forward.
Agree on the 'impossible standard' bit, rilla, that was a nice way to put it. (I however fail to understand your comparison to Diablo 3, which has a lot more close substitutes than the awesomeness that is GoT ever will)
As for why or whether the walkers seemed different between S1E1 and S2E10, I'm kind of confused as to why anyone really feels they've had enough of a sample size to make a determination one way or the other. Regardless, it must seem at least a little unfair to brand those in episode 1 as "creepy and mysterious" while those in s2e10 are dismissed as 'straightforward' and 'cartoony'. While I think Rilla is right about the purposes of these episodes, try and consider the contexts of the scenes themselves as well. S1E1; small group of crows investigating a farm / dwelling; white walkers essentially appear out of nowhere and brutally kill two of them, letting one walk away unharmed. S2E10, a multitude of white walkers march presumably in the direction of the wall. In more or less broad daylight, during a snowstorm. It's all quite a bit less subtle in this case, so it's not all that shocking that they were not portrayed as being 'creepy and mysterious'.
Edit: really wish I was a better writer but I believe I got my point across.
Last edited by Penneywize; 06-04-2012 at 11:25 PM.
Agree on the 'impossible standard' bit, rilla, that was a nice way to put it. (I however fail to understand your comparison to Diablo 3, which has a lot more close substitutes than the awesomeness that is GoT ever will)
As for why or whether the walkers seemed different between S1E1 and S2E10, I'm kind of confused as to why anyone really feels they've had enough of a sample size to make a determination one way or the other. Regardless, it must seem at least a little unfair to brand those in episode 1 as "creepy and mysterious" while those in s2e10 are dismissed as 'straightforward' and 'cartoony'. While I think Rilla is right about the purposes of these episodes, try and consider the contexts of the scenes themselves as well. S1E1; small group of crows investigating a farm / dwelling; white walkers essentially appear out of nowhere and brutally kill two of them, letting one walk away unharmed. S2E10, a multitude of white walkers march presumably in the direction of the wall. In more or less broad daylight, during a snowstorm. It's all quite a bit less subtle in this case, so it's not all that shocking that they were not portrayed as being 'creepy and mysterious'.
Edit: really wish I was a better writer but I believe I got my point across.
The biggest difference was the directing. Like literally I would think the guy who directed the finale was not nearly as good as the one who did the pilot
Everything from how the snow fell to how Sam hid behind the rock to the presentation of the Walker.... Virtually everything
I honestly couldn't describe it, partly because I don't know the right cinematic vernacular. I haven't rewatched it yet so I couldn't say for sure, but the first flaw is that Winter Came yet it didn't feel like it came. When Winter Comes, there needs to be a feeling of dread. All they did to demonstrating Winter Coming was put the snow machine on full. The rock Sam hid behind didn't even look like a real rock. The entire milieu was different. In the pilot there were lots of trees a fleeing person could hide behind, but in the finale there was only one rock Sam could hide behind. That's a really subtle, yet very telling directorial mistake
I loved the finale, but I can understand a lot of the concerns raised. I think what is most worrying about the white walkers is that they don't seem to speak, they are just some undead force of nature. The dragons have a master who has to still play by some sort of rules... Dany still is interested in "the game." The white walkers seem to be very one dimensional, and that's what makes it feel so much like LoTR. I mean, what the hell does an orc want? At least human armies want to rape and pillage and gain honor and prestige. The motivation for orcs/white walkers seems pretty thin and therefore just feels less "real." Of course "real" is a bit of a strange measurement for something in the fantasy genre, yet when you think about it, it's not that strange at all.
It's not bad at all. If this were Walking Dead, it would have been fantastic. But this isn't, so that's why I have criticisms of something that isn't bad in the first place
1. Lumbering zombies is just a bad idea for GoT. I have a feeling that they weren't like this in the books because it has way too much of a standard zombie feel. I don't recall fantasy undead being anything like post-apoc zombies. They should be undead warriors in an undead army, not a horde that walked off the TWD set
2. The White Walker looked underwhelmingly not scary. His design wasn't all bad, as he looked like a human who had been corrupted many thousands of years ago (notice he had a beard and hair), but it just didn't sell the kind of scary badass the Walkers have been in our minds. I mean, he looked like a decent sword swipe would cut him in two, whereas the Walkers in the first ep looked like some kind of super human Nazgul.
Maybe he needed some scary teeth, or maybe his body needed to not look like he weighed 170 pounds. I dunno, he almost looked like he was really fucking old instead of being really fucking evil. But maybe that's what these things are. Maybe they're necromancers from eons ago who got terribly corrupted by their dark magic. Maybe they're supposed to be more human than monster. Frankly, I think it would be better if they're humans who turned into monsters though
3. I did not like the music. It filled me with no dread. It wasn't bad, it just didn't click. This is worth mentioning because that scene was pretty dominated by the music.
4. I didn't like Sam's acting, or maybe just the directing of his acting, and I didn't care for the stage. Granted, it's probably hard as shit to do better when working in an open, white landscape
So those are my main reasons for not being excited about the final scene, a couple of them are meh, a couple are good criticisms
I loved the finale, but I can understand a lot of the concerns raised. I think what is most worrying about the white walkers is that they don't seem to speak, they are just some undead force of nature. The dragons have a master who has to still play by some sort of rules... Dany still is interested in "the game." The white walkers seem to be very one dimensional, and that's what makes it feel so much like LoTR. .
I think it is mostly this, GoT is about a battle for the throne by people, these zombies don't seem to fit in there. Until we see how the rest of the world responds to their resurrection, they just aren't that interesting even if the CGI team had done a better job.
I don't understand the LOTR comparisons that are being made though, the set-up there is all about Sauron (the big bad evil) trying to take over the world, he is only represented by an eye but very much an evil overlord. He controls the orcs and also human tribes, and Saruman controlled the Uruk Hai, so that gives them leadership from above. You knew what the bottom line would be, but just what are the White Walkers up to, besides eating brains?
Someone mentioned it before and even being a book reader I hadn't considered the dynamic of everyone south of the wall not understanding that the shit is about to hit the fan. Watching the series really gives you a better glimpse at this kind of stuff then reading books because there's so much more minute detail it's easy to get caught up in it.
Wrapping my head around what'll happen when winter REALLY hits and everyone's all dead ass tired and all resources depleted from beating the shit out of each other for years and then BAM! OH BTW NIGHTS WATCH TOTALLY TRIED TO WARN YOU BUT THERES SOME FUCKIN ZOMBIES HEADED YOUR WAY DAWG!
Because those of us who haven't seen the Light of GRRM's good Word are lost in the Dark? HBO purists must seem like mole-people to you.
Game of thrones spoilers i guess
Spoiler:
No, because the show is fairly ridiculous at several points due to the massive leeway they get. So ridiculous that it certainly shouldnt be getting as much hype as it is outside of people looking to see boobs every 5min.
Consider the scene you just linked. How can anyones reaction be anything other than wtf? The very first scene of the show has a search party slaughtered by these guys for no reason. Now theres a huge army, and upon seeing someone from the opposing side, decides to do nothing. Wat.
Lets take a look at the Tywin arya dynamic. Lord Twyin, The past king's father in law, is unable to recognize the king's hand's daughter? Erm hmm. Clark kent isnt superman, hes wearing glasses!
How did jon snow get separated from his group on the other side of the wall? Are we to believe they just decided to abandon him? Seems competent.
Dont even get me started on Dany's arc in the second season. My god.
I havent seen the show in a year or so now, but theres a ton of other examples. This is just what i could easily remember.
No, because the show is fairly ridiculous at several points due to the massive leeway they get. So ridiculous that it certainly shouldnt be getting as much hype as it is outside of people looking to see boobs every 5min.
Consider the scene you just linked. How can anyones reaction be anything other than wtf? The very first scene of the show has a search party slaughtered by these guys for no reason. Now theres a huge army, and upon seeing someone from the opposing side, decides to do nothing. Wat.
Lets take a look at the Tywin arya dynamic. Lord Twyin, The past king's father in law, is unable to recognize the king's hand's daughter? Erm hmm. Clark kent isnt superman, hes wearing glasses!
How did jon snow get separated from his group on the other side of the wall? Are we to believe they just decided to abandon him? Seems competent.
Dont even get me started on Dany's arc in the second season. My god.
I havent seen the show in a year or so now, but theres a ton of other examples. This is just what i could easily remember.
All of your complaints are about season 2, and I didn't like season 2 as much as season 1. But I really liked season 1.
That scene with the White Walkers. Cliffhanger - we'll find out what happens later. Shrug.
Worse was the sacking of Winterfell and the end of Theon's arc. But I shrugged it off all the same and assumed season 3 would explain. The ending of season 2 was incredibly hectic.
Tywin and Arya should be obvious. Arya is born and raised in Winterfell. Tywin never visits. Arya goes south to the capital city. Tywin never visits.
Jon Snow gets lost. Endless winterscape, shrug. It's like getting lost in the desert. Easier than you think.
I like Dany's arc. She's far from home and it's going to take a long time to get back.
Definitely not understanding your hate for the show. The books are better, but the books aren't TV.
In spoiler tags since this isn't the GoT thread. It would be good if a mod moved this string over there, or if at least people put their spoilers in spoiler tags outside of the dedicated thread.
Spoiler:
White walker scene, there are certainly theories, and it definitely is not an obvious scene, but it's not "lol wtf this show is so ridiculous!" Also remember that they white walkers did not kill all of the men in the first scene. Maybe this was more spelled out in the book, but maybe it will be better explained in season three. You're really letting your book knowledge cloud your view of the show here.
Tywin lives weeks away from Winterfell and would have had exactly zero reason to visit in the past 10 years. He was never in Kings Landing while Ned was the hand. Why would you assume he knows what Arya looks like? Pretty sure Westeros doesn't have facebook yet... Furthermore, while he was in possession of Arya, he was under the impression, and had no reason to think otherwise, that Arya was being held captive along with Sansa in Kings Landing. Maybe things are different in the book, but as shown on the show, it made perfect sense.
It was quite clear how snow got separated. The fact that they left him alone with the Wildling chick was maybe a tiny little stretch, but once he chases after her through and unfamiliar terrain, it would be pretty easy to get lost. His men are behind enemy lines and in an unforgiving environment, it's not surprising that they weren't able to just locate him lickedy split.
I wasn't a huge fan of the storyline across the Narrow Sea, but that was mostly because it was so detached and everything in Westeros was so incredibly awesome. Still, I thought it was solid, except for her lol magic deus ex machina. I'm a little worried about how they'll manage to balance the magic in future seasons, but not too worried, this show is beyond awesome and you just suck at watching it.
yeah man, that one is a big mystery for show watchers. That's probably what I'm most excited to have resolved in s03, and luckily it should happen in like the first scene. I don't think it makes sense for Bolton to be behind it, since he is currently with Robb in the field. What is he going to do, confront him face to face and be like "yo son, all your base."? I think it's far more likely that his sister came back for him, the bastard hadn't made it there yet, and she had her men raise the city since the damage was already done, and that would give them time to retreat to the Iron Islands.
edit: wtf is going on, I just replied to Rilla's post after he joined the two threads.. and now Rilla's post and the additional posts are gone.
I moved the posts and then moved them back. I thought it was a good idea to move spoilers out of that thread, but JKDS and I aren't allowed in this thread anymore.
who said you're not allowed in the thread anymore? just dont post book spoilers, that is all. not so hard
anyways i thought i was a hardass nit but jkds makes me look like shirley temple. however the dany arc has been problematic as it needed about double the screen time to flesh itself out.
Season 3 is gonna start, im gonna wait until you guys have discussed it enough, and then im gonna enter this thread and just rain down knowledge bombs about all the problems it had, minus any consistency issues with the books.
Atm, i dont have the time to rewatch the older seasons and so cant really argue my points further without relying on book knowledge. So ill be back in a few months.
JKDS, I'd like to assume you are of a high enough cognitive level to not do anything stupid, but just because event B has happened on the show and event A has happened by the time event B has happened in the book, doesn't mean event A is ok to discuss in here. The books aren't necessarily being followed in a linear fashion, and so you shouldn't "rain down knowledge bombs" from the books at any point itt.
I pushed Rilla to move this string of discussion here because it seemed appropriate, but please tread lightly. The books should almost be treated as if they don't exist itt.
Well the issue isn't that there are currently that many meaningful logistical problems within the show. Like the whole how the WW treated Sam thing isn't internally inconsistent. Maybe it was much better in the book (or didn't or wouldn't have happened), but so far it's not internally inconsistent or unexplainable within the show. The main problem with that scene is that the wights or whatever look like TWD zombies when they should instead look like a magical undead army. The second problem with that scene is that the WW look really fucking old and weak instead of mysterious and sinister
For all we know Sam has a magical power of invisibility to walkers that we don't yet know about. That would be kinda silly, but I am fully expecting to find new people with new kinds of powers and that some of the established characters already have magical powers they're not yet aware of
Seriously I fucking hate JKDS and pretty much anyone who's read the books at any point ever. You bastards just can't help but spoil shit left and right.
I was in a game of Mechwarrior Online last night and some asshole spoiled a major character dying. OUT OF NOWHERE! Fuck all you book readers. FUCK ALL Y'ALL! RAAAAGE
Honestly though the last 10 posts or whatever really shouldn't be in here imo.
Seriously I fucking hate JKDS and pretty much anyone who's read the books at any point ever. You bastards just can't help but spoil shit left and right.
I was in a game of Mechwarrior Online last night and some asshole spoiled a major character dying. OUT OF NOWHERE! Fuck all you book readers. FUCK ALL Y'ALL! RAAAAGE
Honestly though the last 10 posts or whatever really shouldn't be in here imo.
what a shock someone playing an mmo spoiled a GOT spoiler -.-
OI BOOK READERS. DONT BE LAME K? There is no worse crime than spoiling what happens in an environment where people don't want anything spoiled. IF YOU THINK ITS EVEN CLOSE DONT SAY SHIT. IF YOU DONT THINK ITS CLOSE RE-EVALUATE AND THEN DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO POST.
Seriously I fucking hate JKDS and pretty much anyone who's read the books at any point ever. You bastards just can't help but spoil shit left and right.
I was in a game of Mechwarrior Online last night and some asshole spoiled a major character dying. OUT OF NOWHERE! Fuck all you book readers. FUCK ALL Y'ALL! RAAAAGE
Honestly though the last 10 posts or whatever really shouldn't be in here imo.
Dude they haven't spoiled anything. We're talking about the show exclusively here.
And yes, I have been spoiled on several things by dicksucks across the internet too, but none of which has been in show threads
He's talking about what Penney said. Of course, JV is not actually spoiled on anything because "major character" means just about anything. Besides, I'm positive that certain characters who may or may not have died in the books won't die in the show. For example, I seriously doubt the show would kill Tyrion even if he died in the books. Even if I knew if Tyrion died in the books (I have no idea if he does or doesn't) I would claim that the show still won't kill him.
a little town called none of your goddamn business
That's what he's referring to? Some unnamed major character is gonna die sometime during the next EIGHT SEASONS LOL. Might as well stop watching the show now IMO.
That's what he's referring to? Some unnamed major character is gonna die sometime during the next EIGHT SEASONS LOL. Might as well stop watching the show now IMO.
Renton you kinda explain what I was going for, but apparently the intent of my post wasn't clear. I also wanted to joke with the fact that R.R. Martin is wellknown for offing his characters.
I still hate how long they're making us wait for season 3, but I've resisted the urge (and my friend's insistence) to read the books. Hoping to see it as unspoiled as possible.
Renton you kinda explain what I was going for, but apparently the intent of my post wasn't clear. I also wanted to joke with the fact that R.R. Martin is wellknown for offing his characters.
I still hate how long they're making us wait for season 3, but I've resisted the urge (and my friend's insistence) to read the books. Hoping to see it as unspoiled as possible.
Renton you kinda explain what I was going for, but apparently the intent of my post wasn't clear. I also wanted to joke with the fact that R.R. Martin is wellknown for offing his characters.
I still hate how long they're making us wait for season 3, but I've resisted the urge (and my friend's insistence) to read the books. Hoping to see it as unspoiled as possible.
Yeah, I've been tempted a few times, but there are so many other things I can read while GoT airs, and if I really feel like it, I can read the books when it's done.
I'm just not going to become one of those guys who reads a book first before watching the screen-version (be it Movie or Television) of the story, and then tells his friends "Meh, the book was better".
OF COURSE the fucking books were better. They happen INSIDE YOUR HEAD. EVERYTHING looks the way YOU WANT IT TO.
Anyway, yes you do miss out on certain things like the literary style of the author, the ebb and flow of the prose, the turns of phrase and so on. Ultimately, while the main elements of the plot are supposed to come through, there's going to be some shit lost in translation.
I'm just going to let this be screen-only for me. It's too good the way it is. And I hate it when book people tell me the books are better than the show. You're biased. I can't even think of any instance of anyone ever, ever telling me that a show or movie was better than its source material. Can it ever be?
If so, Game of Thrones comes as close as any previous attempt, I'd have to think.
remember when there were Novel versions of movies penned by shit authors released around the same time as the movie, just to rake in on the extra few bucks? Is that still a thing? I swear I remember movies based on books having these too, and not the source material with a new cover, but like Jurassic Park- The Book which was adapted from the movie.
remember when there were Novel versions of movies penned by shit authors released around the same time as the movie, just to rake in on the extra few bucks? Is that still a thing? I swear I remember movies based on books having these too, and not the source material with a new cover, but like Jurassic Park- The Book which was adapted from the movie.
Totally a thing, but Jurassic park, the book, came out 3 years before the movie according to Wikipedia.
Totally a thing, but Jurassic park, the book, came out 3 years before the movie according to Wikipedia.
Yes, I am aware that Speilberg's Jurassic Park was based on Michael Criton's novel. What I am saying is that there was then a book adaptation of the movie.
Anyway, I suppose you all get my point. Film being better than literature is a rather rare thing indeed. GoT stands a good chance at being included in the probably very short list of superior screen adaptations.
remember when there were Novel versions of movies penned by shit authors released around the same time as the movie, just to rake in on the extra few bucks? Is that still a thing? I swear I remember movies based on books having these too, and not the source material with a new cover, but like Jurassic Park- The Book which was adapted from the movie.
Pretty sure this is only a thing in elementary school book orders.
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
this is not the sort of nittery I enjoy. Moar about tits, smoke monsters, dragons, incest, and whore-beating.
