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**** Elections thread *****

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  1. #5476
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If you want the President to not be hateful toward the media, you gotta stop fueling narratives like this.
    The link between a forum post to the media is tenuous.

    The conclusion does not follow the premise.
    The notion that the media could do its job w/o holding politicians accountable for their every action is absurd.

    The notion that it's excusable for the President to be hateful toward Americans doing their job as deemed necessary to a free state is not a good sign for democracy.

    Sure, in 4 or 8 years, after he's off the clock, then I don't care one bit, but he literally asked for perhaps the most scrutinized job in the world. Bristling at the extent of the scrutiny is OK, but embracing hate toward the scrutinizers is another thing. They are, after all, members of a free press, which is deemed necessary to a well-informed public and thus to democracy.
    \
    As the figurehead of democracy, you gotta let some annoying side-effect thereof slide.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    All he did was confuse his wording somewhat between what he 'saw last night about what's happening in Sweden', and 'what's happening in sweden last night'. That's common for a guy who is bombastic, hyperbolic, and doesn't read the teleprompter. It was a minor slip, he corrected it the next morning. It really shouldn't be a big deal.
    "All he did" seems hyperbolic at best. It's a plausible explanation, but he's too smart to write any mistake off as "just a mistake."
    Sure, he will make mistakes which were "unscripted." The genius of him is that he can play off the unscripted ones to his advantage after the fact, so they look basically the same as the scripted ones.

    He's not an idiot. I think your analysis is oversimplifying the man.
    ...
    but it could have been a simple mistake, with no forethought to it, so maybe you're right that this is a simple case.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Instead, the MSM and others are going bonkers. Did he invent a terrorist attack? Did he deliberately lie to distract from something else? What is he smoking? That's all a symptom of a butt-hurt press that wants to play "gotchya". It's not cool.
    The reactions sound dumb.
    Why are you watching dumb people get hysterical about stuff that is nothing to bat an eye at?
    Why are you seeming to get hysterical about their hysteria?

    I mean... it's one thing to disagree with a melodramatic fool, it's another to cite their behavior as representative of your greater opposition.
    At the very least, it means that your opposition is a bunch of silly people who are borderline senseless in their fanaticism.
    What does it say about you that your opponents are so lame?
    Exactly.
    Your positions are not lame, and your true opponents are not the lame ones making a fuss on TV.

    (Opponent may not be the right word, but I hope you know what I mean.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    The same goes for the business about crowd size, or his claim during last week's press conference that he had the 'largest electoral college victory'. He's an egotistical, stubborn, eccentric old man. Who cares if he thinks his margin of victory was bigger than George W's. What does that matter to anyone?
    The bigger question is that since this line of reasoning is obviously childish, why are you spending so much mental energy on it?
    Some people are paid to say controversial things. Other people are either playing along or too foolish to know it's a game and are actually caught up in the us/them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    This "style" that Trump has, is not new. He's done it his whole life, he's done it the whole campaign, and he still won the election. That means that the general public doesn't care enough about this stuff. Yet the press seems intent on trolling the president over it at every turn.
    What it means vis a vis the general public is decided on an individual by individual basis. Even taken as an agglomerated whole, there was close to a 50/50 split on the vote. Even if it was a 75/25 landslide, I don't see how that matters. What people care about can change on a minute by minute basis. So the fact that he's been elected is no long-term endorsement of his "style." Many self-identified republicans voted for Trump while actively disliking him / his style. They were upset at the greater Republican Party for putting up such a poor choice as their candidate, but they were certainly not voting for anyone else.

    The notion that criticism of the President is somehow being rude or trolling is too far. Sure... some people are nothing more than trolls when it comes to political commentary, but, again, if these are your opponents, then you're a self-declared intellectual lightweight (no hate.. that's a fun game, too).

    His style is his. Some like it; some don't. The notion that he's above criticism because he asked to be the most criticized employee in America doesn't make sense to me.
    The notion that he should care about or listen to people who are obviously embracing their childish entitlement and whiney side is just wrong
  2. #5477
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    You mean like the single most prominent narrative in the mainstream media right now...the one that says Trump hired Russia to take down Hillary in exchange for favorable accommodations in future foreign policy negotiations.

    Down goes Michael Flynn. Why? Well because …


    http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...-russia-2017-2
    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...ns-russia-news


    … he LIED. Apparently to Mike Pence of all people. AG Sally Yates called him out on it and raised attention on the issue as she should, and got fired for that.


    http://fortune.com/2017/02/14/michae...n-sally-yates/




    A timeline of the events in Flynn’s case


    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...line/97946470/










    =======================


    The thing was the Russian hackers.


    This an article from 2014, way, way, way before the DNC hack was a thing:
    https://thehackernews.com/2014/10/AP...espionage.html


    So yeah, the DNC hack. Right now it’s all hearsay and “I got evidence but I can’t show it to you”, but the alleged Russian hackers have shown their presence once again:


    https://thehackernews.com/2017/02/xa...are-apt28.html
    https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-mac-...hackers-apt28/
    https://arstechnica.com/security/201...lection-hacks/




    I assume that it’s tough to make a case about hacking. Refusal of disclosure of evidence, not to mention those that even if you disclose said evidence will say that you are lying anyway, and the fact that most people have no idea about cyber security and think you need a 7 monitor rig like the movie Swordfish and a few cases of Red Bull, contribute to this fact.


    Then you have other, less important actors waiting for said evidence disclose so they can apply it to their own schemes and muddy the waters even worse


    https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/new...ssian-hackers/
















    =======================


    Sidenote: LIES.


    It got so bad, the Washington Post made up a chrome extension to fact-check Trump Tweets. I’m not shitting you


    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-into-twitter/
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  3. #5478
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    I don’t know what to tell you man. I linked the video for your convenience, so I assume you saw it, saw the facts I presented in the now veritas Trump Tweets medium, and still say I’m somehow making up facts.
    I don't have audio on this PC, so I didn't watch the video. But I'm not getting my news from a comedian anyway. Trump said he was referencing a fox report which definitely did not cite a specific incident in Sweden on the night of 2/17/17. Seems like a misunderstanding and was clarified. Fin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    That’s now how it goes. You see, there are a lot of actors that now have to deal with him who were not involved in any way, shape or form in the election.
    I assume the 'actors' you're referring to are the other world leaders you listed earlier. I think you're missing the message sent by the public that elected Trump, which was: "We're sick of those 'actors' kicking America's ass on the world stage, and we want a new sheriff in town". Trump was elected, to some degree, for the purpose of pissing off those people. I understand that there are people who don't like that, but their candidate lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Imagine, well, let’s say Obama or W so I don’t use Trump again, claiming in a non-troll way that the earth is flat. ......Why would you do this if particularly you are in the position to have literally everyone around you that can go and verify whatever you want to say before you do just so you can avoid this exact nonsense issue?
    It's simply a different style that Trump has. Again, this was adjudicated during the election. People LIKE Trump's style. It just so happens that the people who don't like his style own newspapers or have their own show on cable news.

    Yes Trump could carefully craft every single word and avoid any misunderstanding ever. But he won't. You knew all along he wouldn't. If he did, he wouldn't be himself. He wouldn't be the man that the people voted for. Trump was voted in by a large number of people who are tired of the rehearsed rhetoric in washington. Didn't you hear people during the campaign referring to a "straight talker".

    Trump is more raw than other presidents. Everyone knew that going in, and now has to work with that. I'm not saying they can't be critical of his policies. I'm not saying they can't be critical of things he says. I am saying they CAN'T play gotchya like this over every little detail, especially those that were known, expected, and totally consistent with his character for the last 50 years. When they do that, they cease to be a 'free and independent' press.
  4. #5479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I wouldn't go this far; they can be both brutal and adversarial. I think they are genuinely anti-Trump (apart from Fox, which seems to waver between butt-kissing and relatively mild criticism). BUT, that doesn't mean they don't have some valid points to make, or that they're just complaining about irrelevant matters like a typo in a speech or something.


    Further, the adversarial posture of the press has only been increased by Trump's constant denouncing of them. He's largely responsible for the fact that the press hates him. It seems he treats them as unfairly as they treat him.



    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Sure. But this is where I think we're going to diverge on opinions.


    I feel that an unreasonably brutal press hurts Trump's position, and thus America's position, when it comes to negotiating with the world leaders you've mentioned. He'll never get Russia, or anyone, to respect anything he says if he's constantly dealing with press taunting him for not being able to count. That's the dangerous game the media is playing, all in the name of "accountability" over issues that no one really cares about.



    And yet he keeps doing it. He keeps doing it. He keeps doing it. He keeps spouting stuff that’s just not true, verifiable untruths, and when the press backs him into a corner he threatens the free press, revoking credentials, actual bullying like he did with the lady who came up with the question of the black caucus a few days ago, and on and on.


    Trump is backing himself up in a dangerous corner. All he has to do is stop lying and stop calling other people liars. He already made his reputation as Pinocchio. He has to stop lying, stop doubling down on his lies, and then when there’s no more recourse left say he saw it on TV. It’s a pattern, regrettably a regressive one.


    This is what it feels like being a frog in a boiling pot. The only time the frog will realize that the pot is boiling, is when it’s dead which is arguably (LOL) too late.






    This article called this a while ago


    http://fortune.com/2016/11/11/trump-vs-media/








    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I wouldn't go this far; they can be both brutal and adversarial. I think they are genuinely anti-Trump (apart from Fox, which seems to waver between butt-kissing and relatively mild criticism). BUT, that doesn't mean they don't have some valid points to make, or that they're just complaining about irrelevant matters like a typo in a speech or something.


    Further, the adversarial posture of the press has only been increased by Trump's constant denouncing of them. He's largely responsible for the fact that the press hates him. It seems he treats them as unfairly as they treat him.

    Perfect. 100%


    It took a long time for us to get to this position, but we must all remember that when the media was sucking his dick he enjoyed it very much. This whole obsession with the media, vilification, adversarial relationship started pretty much when he said his Mexican remarks.


    “The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else’s problems,” Trump said. “It’s true. And these aren’t the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs, they’re bringing crime; they’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

    Those are his words. The media said Trump said every Mexican Immigrant is a druggie, is a criminal, is a rapist. Trump went ballistic because that’s not what he said. So this whole media war is about semantics. He did say exactly that.


    People then argue “But he didn’t say all Mexican immigrants are bad”, and yet the quote does say that “When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their very best. They are sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs, they’re bringing crime; they’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” It is word for word what he said, yet he denied having said exactly that.


    When Univision’s Jorge Ramos asked him about that, about the deportation policies, and asking him for clarification on his Mexico-related policies, he got this treatment





    That was the official starting point of this mess, Aug. 2015. And now we are where we are today.






    This is perhaps a good use for Martin Niemöller’s “first they came for” quote …
    Last edited by Jack Sawyer; 02-20-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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  5. #5480
    More eyes on Sweden, rape, terrorism, and Fox from those who are generally not that engaged. Trump keeps looking worse and worse to the engaged opposition. A while back I realized that when he says stuff that seems so silly to me, maybe he's not talking to me. I already know about the Sweden rapefugee crisis. I already know about migrant crime-ridden ghettos. I already know about Salafism and its utter disdain for western values. But most people don't, and this one "gaffe" by Trump got a bunch of eyes on that stuff from those people than otherwise.
  6. #5481
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    More eyes on Sweden, rape, terrorism, and Fox from those who are generally not that engaged. Trump keeps looking worse and worse to the engaged opposition. A while back I realized that when he says stuff that seems so silly to me, maybe he's not talking to me. I already know about the Sweden rapefugee crisis. I already know about migrant crime-ridden ghettos. I already know about Salafism and its utter disdain for western values. But most people don't, and this one "gaffe" by Trump got a bunch of eyes on that stuff from those people than otherwise.
    Do you have pictures of these ghettos?
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  7. #5482
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I don't have audio on this PC, so I didn't watch the video. But I'm not getting my news from a comedian anyway. Trump said he was referencing a fox report which definitely did not cite a specific incident in Sweden on the night of 2/17/17. Seems like a misunderstanding and was clarified. Fin.

    Only a comedian can deliver a point properly which itself was delivered via tweet.



    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I assume the 'actors' you're referring to are the other world leaders you listed earlier. I think you're missing the message sent by the public that elected Trump, which was: "We're sick of those 'actors' kicking America's ass on the world stage, and we want a new sheriff in town". Trump was elected, to some degree, for the purpose of pissing off those people. I understand that there are people who don't like that, but their candidate lost.



    Mind blown.




    How do you kick the ass of the most powerful country in the world? In what way, shape or form are other countries kicking the USA’s ass, other than in social policies (healthcare, education etc.) for their own citizens? What are you talking about?




    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Yes Trump could carefully craft every single word and avoid any misunderstanding ever. But he won't. You knew all along he wouldn't. If he did, he wouldn't be himself. He wouldn't be the man that the people voted for. Trump was voted in by a large number of people who are tired of the rehearsed rhetoric in washington. Didn't you hear people during the campaign referring to a "straight talker".


    Trump is more raw than other presidents. Everyone knew that going in, and now has to work with that. I'm not saying they can't be critical of his policies. I'm not saying they can't be critical of things he says. I am saying they CAN'T play gotchya like this over every little detail, especially those that were known, expected, and totally consistent with his character for the last 50 years. When they do that, they cease to be a 'free and independent' press.

    You are bringing the “Large number of votes” point up again. It’s not a valid one bananastand, for reasons which have been repeatedly pointed out to you like it’s Groundhog’s Day.


    A president can’t do or say things just because, because everyone is watching and taking note of his every word. If Rob Ford would have run for president of Canada he’d probably win, and then die of an overdose. Not just because you have been elected automatically means that you can actually do your job bananastand. There are things that are expected out of every function in all walks of life, like a prostitute is expected to be able to give good head. Like a programmer has to be able to conjure up an if statement. Like a president has to be able to NOT run his mouth. It just comes with the job, failing to adhere to this has consequences.
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  8. #5483
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The notion that the media could do its job w/o holding politicians accountable for their every action is absurd.
    Of course they could. Politicians are people too. And people are imperfect. If their flaws are exposed as part of a fair, open, and public election process.....and they still win, then that means that the consensus accepts those flaws. To continually call them out in mostly petty and irrelevant circumstances is NOT the media's job, and has nothing to do with accountability.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Bristling at the extent of the scrutiny is OK, but embracing hate toward the scrutinizers is another thing. They are, after all, members of a free press, which is deemed necessary to a well-informed public and thus to democracy.
    Free, sure. But ethical? Independent? Impartial? Aren't those things also deemed necessary for the public to be well-informed? Do you really think we have that right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    He's not an idiot. I think your analysis is oversimplifying the man.
    ...
    but it could have been a simple mistake, with no forethought to it, so maybe you're right that this is a simple case.
    Sometimes people are just people.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    The reactions sound dumb.
    Why are you watching dumb people get hysterical about stuff that is nothing to bat an eye at?
    Your positions are not lame, and your true opponents are not the lame ones making a fuss on TV.
    The bigger question is that since this line of reasoning is obviously childish, why are you spending so much mental energy on it?
    If you're asking me to leave the forum, just say so. I enjoy robust debate. You make it sound like I'm on a mission here or something.

    When those 'dumb' people comprise some 80% of the mainstream media, they have influence. That makes their dumb-ness dangerous.

    If the press is incessantly lacing into Trump with reactions that you've agreed are "dumb", it IS something to bat an eye at. If Putin sees that Trump can't manage to get through the day without someone in prime time calling him a retard, then that weakens America's position.

    That's the media's agenda here. They are actively seeking to undermine a president and create a narrative that says the vast majority of the public sees him as a punchline, even if that narrative is false. That's great if you're planning to hold signs for Elizabeth Warren in 2020. But if your job is affected by the value of the dollar, or America's interest in a trade treaty, or anything else within the Presdent's purview over the next four years......it's really really fucking bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    So the fact that he's been elected is no long-term endorsement of his "style." Many self-identified republicans voted for Trump while actively disliking him / his style.
    There's no law requiring a President to 'behave' a certain way. So his election is most definitely a 4-year endorsement of his style.
  9. #5484
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If you're asking me to leave the forum, just say so. I enjoy robust debate. You make it sound like I'm on a mission here or something.
    No one here would ever ask you to leave. In all of my tenure around here, I've only seen that happen to iopq, but that was some sort of grandstanding and had nothing to do with debate.

    I personally hate ecochambers. I hate people telling me something, and then having to take their word as fact because they said so. Which is why I'm not religious. Which is why I present my points with actual facts and sources backing it up, not just some rando's blog or pastebin. But even if it is a place which has credence, I don't fully take their word as gospel either. I'm skeptic as fuck as you can see. I like to form my own opinions, and I like to play devil's advocate.

    I would never ever ask for you to leave. In fact, if we were ever in the vicinity I'd buy you a beer. Any beer as long as it's not Budweiser nor Heineken
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  10. #5485
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Do you have pictures of these ghettos?
    I don't bookmark this stuff. A quick google yields this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwqpuUDS6ac

    Vast insurgence of grenade attacks in Sweden, mainly Malmo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...acks_in_Sweden

    Did you see the thing the soon to retire Swedish policeman posted on FB a couple weeks ago? It got real big. He said he's tired of every call he takes being some violent crime with prime suspect Muhammad. Word is that he's being investigated for hate speech or something.

    60 Minutes trying to show the world how peaceful it is over there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A76DLK20L4o

    Lots and lots of rapes that don't get covered by the MSM. I've already posted some of them. We're talking gang rape of the disabled, abduction, torture. One that I hadn't posted before http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...se-toilet.html
  11. #5486
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    How do you kick the ass of the most powerful country in the world? In what way, shape or form are other countries kicking the USA’s ass, other than in social policies (healthcare, education etc.) for their own citizens? What are you talking about?
    Well, as just one example, Trump's support base is chock full of people who feel that illegal Mexican immigration hurts the economy. Fewer jobs, stagnant wages, the burden on social programs, etc. Now we have a wall, and a promise to make Mexico pay for it. The media collectively wet themselves when Trump had a testy phone call with Nieto. And every Trump supporter also had to change their underwear, but for a different reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    You are bringing the “Large number of votes” point up again. It’s not a valid one bananastand, for reasons which have been repeatedly pointed out to you like it’s Groundhog’s Day.
    You don't just get to declare what's valid and what isn't. And a 'large number of votes' is a perfectly salient argument if the issue is a matter of opinion, already adjudicated through an election.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    a president has to be able to NOT run his mouth. It just comes with the job,
    No it doesn't. The fact that Trump won the election, proves this statement wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    failing to adhere to this has consequences.
    Consequences? Like what? I can fire a programmer. I can stiff a prostitute. Are you saying that Trump should somehow not be president because he's not living up to your imagined standards? There's no law that says the POTUS has to be nice.
  12. #5487
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    You see, the_donald is basically a support group. It's the eco-chamber of all eco-chambers. It's like a corner of the internet for furries, where they congregate and talk about how awesome it is to be a furry, and how they heard on a blog of someone who was linked on another blog by somebody else about how the little pony is the rage right now.

    It's sad. But, they have the right to exist and do as they please.

    So I did visit. And one of the first things I saw was them mentioning about what is happening in Denmark. What is happening in Denmark, you say?

    http://imgur.com/a/Z7jbO

    Probably the same as what is happening in Sweden. A media coverup of massive, nationwide perhaps international scale. I need to buy stocks in tinfoil companies.
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  13. #5488
    A good deal of what hits that forum is total shit (standard for most media), and most who use it know it (not standard for most users of media).

    Regardless, it is good to keep up with thedonald, to delve into it and to understand it, for mainly two reasons: (1) we're living in historical times, t_d is the most powerful media source in the world right now (believe me), and (2) it is intensely persuasive over time because it's a bunch of people having a good time.
  14. #5489
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I don't bookmark this stuff. A quick google yields this


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwqpuUDS6ac

    Video from 2009.


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Vast insurgence of grenade attacks in Sweden, mainly Malmo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...acks_in_Sweden

    Wikipedia? Ok ok. You do know that anyone can edit that source, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Did you see the thing the soon to retire Swedish policeman posted on FB a couple weeks ago? It got real big. He said he's tired of every call he takes being some violent crime with prime suspect Muhammad. Word is that he's being investigated for hate speech or something.

    Haven’t heard of it. Anecdotal it seems. Plus, a quick google search of that yielded my favorite “news” sources as top hits.


    Express.co.uk, Infowars, Breitbart, Virginia Dare, theMuslimIssue.wordpress.com.


    Hmmm …


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    60 Minutes trying to show the world how peaceful it is over there: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A76DLK20L4o

    This one seems real. I wonder though, where is the actual 60 minutes video on the whole thing? Why was this posted on a youtube channel with 100 subs and not the official 60 minute one? Seems like a huge story, one which an outlet 60 minutes would sure as shit post everywhere in all four winds … odd.


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Lots and lots of rapes that don't get covered by the MSM. I've already posted some of them. We're talking gang rape of the disabled, abduction, torture. One that I hadn't posted before http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...se-toilet.html

    Hmmm. How credible is the daily mail?


    https://www.quora.com/How-credible-is-the-Daily-Mail


    In my opinion, the Daily Mail has zero credibility.


    Personally, I use it as a reverse fact check – if the Daily Mail says something is true then I assume it is untrue.



    Look around long enough on the internet and you will find that one obscure link that will validate your point.


    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/g26Lk


    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/...t-mr-president


    http://www.vox.com/world/2017/2/19/1...st-attack-fake
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  15. #5490
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    I would never ever ask for you to leave. In fact, if we were ever in the vicinity I'd buy you a beer. Any beer as long as it's not Budweiser nor Heineken
    I'd like to order a vodka tonic....but I'd be worried about a perceived connection to the Russians.
  16. #5491
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    A good deal of what hits that forum is total shit (standard for most media), and most who use it know it (not standard for most users of media).


    Regardless, it is good to keep up with thedonald, to delve into it and to understand it, for mainly two reasons: (1) we're living in historical times, t_d is the most powerful media source in the world right now (believe me), and (2) it is intensely persuasive over time because it's a bunch of people having a good time.

    Sure, attend enough vampire conferences and you will definitely develop an appetite for blood, it’s human nature.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  17. #5492
    I'm not going to debate. The rationalizing in these things has become abundantly clear to me.
  18. #5493
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I'd like to order a vodka tonic....but I'd be worried about a perceived connection to the Russians.

    Hahaha, I used to drink vodka too but then I saw the light. Vodka does have the nice side benefit of never giving you the breath, so you can have as much as you like and as long as you can handle it no one will ever know you are drunk. Unlike Buchanan’s/ Dewar's etc..


    Belgian beer man. Hoegaarden, Palm. Taste that shit and you will never go back. I keep the liquor for when I really want to go FUBAR.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  19. #5494
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I like wuf's views on economics and politics more than I used to. His thinking seems to be the product of logic, rather than hatred of an individual.
    I'm interested in hearing more about in which ways your views have changed.
  20. #5495
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    You don't just get to declare what's valid and what isn't.
    Neither do you.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    And a 'large number of votes' is a perfectly salient argument if the issue is a matter of opinion, already adjudicated through an election.
    Winning the election allows him to be president until such time as he's not president. It doesn't give him the right to have a friendly press, a kool-aid drinking populace, or to be immune from criticism.
  21. #5496
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    This one seems real. I wonder though, where is the actual 60 minutes video on the whole thing? Why was this posted on a youtube channel with 100 subs and not the official 60 minute one? Seems like a huge story, one which an outlet 60 minutes would sure as shit post everywhere in all four winds … odd.
    It's not the CBS 60 minutes that's for sure. Horowitz's films get play on Fox News, in fact, it was his report that was on Fox before Trump's 'last night in Sweden' line.

    http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Ami_Horowitz
  22. #5497
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Consequences? Like what? I can fire a programmer. I can stiff a prostitute. Are you saying that Trump should somehow not be president because he's not living up to your imagined standards? There's no law that says the POTUS has to be nice.

    If you are a programmer who doesn’t know WTF an if statement is, then you will not just get fired when that comes to light, you will actually be ridiculed by your peers. If you are a bitch who doesn’t know how to give good head, well there is always pussy, x fetishes and if all else fails anal. There are ways around that.


    See? Those two examples are much more nuanced than that which you claim I was saying. As always, the devil is in the details.


    BTW, the standards are not imagined. We have seen in the past what happens when you have a president which meets “My Imagined” standards (Mark Rutte) and one that doesn’t (Rodrigo Duterte).
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  23. #5498
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Neither do you.
    I know, so I'm not doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Winning the election allows him to be president until such time as he's not president. .
    So then the press should let him be president. Engaging in a campaign to undermine and de-legitimize him is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    It doesn't give him the right to have a friendly press,.
    See, you're just not seeing the whole picture here. My criticism of the press isn't derived from Trump fan-boy-ism. I agree he has no right to a friendly press. What I want, as an American citizen is an ethical, fair, and impartial press. I'm not getting that. That's the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    a kool-aid drinking populace,.
    The press doesn't have a right to that either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    or to be immune from criticism.
    No one suggested he should be. But criticizing him for long-standing eccentricities is fake fucking news.
  24. #5499
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    What I want, as an American citizen is an ethical, fair, and impartial press. I'm not getting that. That's the problem.
    I agree, the press is none of those things. But it's not like they were those things before and it's just recently that they've become flawed.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    But criticizing him for long-standing eccentricities is fake fucking news.
    If you think habitual lying (or if you prefer, ignorance/being misinformed) is an 'eccentricity' that the press should just accept like 'aw shucks, there he goes again', then your expectations aren't very realistic imo.
  25. #5500
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Of course they could. Politicians are people too. And people are imperfect. If their flaws are exposed as part of a fair, open, and public election process.....and they still win, then that means that the consensus accepts those flaws. To continually call them out in mostly petty and irrelevant circumstances is NOT the media's job, and has nothing to do with accountability.
    That's not what it means.
    To be petty and irrelevant is, agreeably, not the media's job. The tone is not their job, the scrutiny is their job.

    And yes, if by continually, you mean, throughout the course of his Presidential term, his every action will be scrutinized. That's the nature of the job.

    It is exactly because people are imperfect that this is a necessarily role of the free press.

    That's not what consensus means. Even if it did mean that barely over 50% of the people are OK with his flaws, that still leaves the other half of the people for whom those flaws are a big deal. Winning an election doesn't mean you have only half a constituency. The whole of Americans is still Trump's constituency, and that constituency has every right to determine if they think his actions are mistakes or not on a case by case basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Free, sure. But ethical? Independent? Impartial? Aren't those things also deemed necessary for the public to be well-informed? Do you really think we have that right now?
    What I think is not relevant in any way. I've already abandoned any patronage of American "News" agencies aside from the occasional curiosity.
    I have already come to your conclusions that the trash we are being offered is not news. It's hysteria, usually laughably predictably oriented along partisan lines.

    What's relevant is that you're further making my point that you find the news sources to be fully lacking in recognizing the dignity and humanity of an adult audience who want to make sense of the world, and not get caught up in melodramatic wastes of time.

    I don't get why, given that we agree that American "News" is anything but a sensible way for adults to learn about current events, do you patronize American news sources so regularly.

    I think you'll find more robust, comprehensive and non-partisan sources if you get away from the TV, and frankly, get away from US News sources. I agree with you that the state of news in the US is utter shit right now, but I don't understand why, if you think that, do you still patronize them.

    I don't understand why, given their ineffectual pandering to a biased audience you let them get under your skin.
    Can you explain this?

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Sometimes people are just people.
    Exactly why we have a right to discern when the President has made a statement which is "on the clock" vs. a personal opinion or knee-jerk reaction to something.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If you're asking me to leave the forum, just say so. I enjoy robust debate. You make it sound like I'm on a mission here or something.
    If I wanted you to leave the forum, you would not need to ask me for clarity on my position.

    Rest assured.

    I enjoy your posts, and I do not want you to leave over anything that I've said or done. If that changes, you will be perfectly clear on exactly what my gripe is and why I am not willing to forgive the offense. (Not likely to happen. Unless I've completely misjudged you, I like you. We disagree on a lot, but you favor a reasoned explanation and a grounding in facts. We may disagree on the facts, but we agree that facts are the shizzle wizzle.)

    ***
    I mean:
    GTFO with that noise.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    When those 'dumb' people comprise some 80% of the mainstream media, they have influence. That makes their dumb-ness dangerous.
    Do they, though?
    Does it, though?

    I am not convinced that there is a direct link between shitty reporting and policy changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If the press is incessantly lacing into Trump with reactions that you've agreed are "dumb", it IS something to bat an eye at. If Putin sees that Trump can't manage to get through the day without someone in prime time calling him a retard, then that weakens America's position..
    I don't think Putin's that naive. Naive isn't a word that comes to mind when I think of Putin, anyway.

    If you and I can suss out that the trash America is putting out there as "news" is really current events entertainment, then the Russians can suss it out, too.

    If Putin thinks Trump is weak because of some, lets face it, privileged blowhards, then my money is on Trump walking all over him in trade negotiations by playing off of that naivety.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    That's the media's agenda here. They are actively seeking to undermine a president and create a narrative that says the vast majority of the public sees him as a punchline, even if that narrative is false. That's great if you're planning to hold signs for Elizabeth Warren in 2020. But if your job is affected by the value of the dollar, or America's interest in a trade treaty, or anything else within the Presdent's purview over the next four years......it's really really fucking bad.
    Bill Clinton was impeached over a scandal involving a blowjob. He lied under oath about getting a blowjob from someone who's not his wife. The House of Representatives impeached him for it and made him say he's sorry.

    Nothing any President has faced since has been a bigger waste of American's time or the President's time.

    (Inb4 Clinton was never impeached. Google it before you make the claim.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    There's no law requiring a President to 'behave' a certain way. So his election is most definitely a 4-year endorsement of his style.
    Agree about the law. As I understand it, the President is immune to any prosecution of any law unless they are first impeached.

    I couldn't disagree more about the election endorsement.

    It says, "Geez, out of these 2 total ass hats, that one is a more criminal-seeming asshat. The other one is a bit of a jerk sometimes, but at least not already a corrupt insider."

    Even if it means what you said it means, it only means that to barely more than half the people and the other half don't have any law saying that they have to behave a certain way, either.
  26. #5501
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    If you think habitual lying (or if you prefer, ignorance/being misinformed) is an 'eccentricity' that the press should just accept like 'aw shucks, there he goes again', then your expectations aren't very realistic imo.
    You're putting words in my mouth a little bit. What I'm saying is that the press is perfectly capable of choosing its battles. By instead choosing to play "gotchya" they're not just hurting Trump, they're hurting America.
  27. #5502
    The long and the short of it is that the MSM is definitely anti-Trump, but he himself provides them with most of their ammunition through his own behavior.
  28. #5503
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    The long and the short of it is that the MSM is definitely anti-Trump, but he himself provides them with most of their ammunition through his own behavior.
    Agree with the first part, not so much with the second part.

    Trump's "behavior" (we'll just use that word for brevity's sake) is exactly what got him elected President. The only way he makes it to office is by doing and saying exactly what he did for the entire year and a half campaign. Trump didn't create that situation, he just worked within it, and leveraged it to his advantage. In other words, don't hate the playa, hate the game.

    If the press is pissed off now that they realize that their own negativity actually transformed into Trump support...that's on them. Trying to correct that mistake through a campaign to de-legitimize a sitting President is sour grapes.
  29. #5504
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    You're putting words in my mouth a little bit. What I'm saying is that the press is perfectly capable of choosing its battles. By instead choosing to play "gotchya" they're not just hurting Trump, they're hurting America.
    Pointing out a president's lies/ignorance is a perfectly valid thing for the press to do. 'Gotcha' would be an hour long expose on how he failed to pay a parking ticket in 1975.

    You could argue that the press focuses on his lies/ignorance to a greater extent than is necessary, instead of focusing on policy issues, and I would agree with that. I also would agree that they are actively trying to make him look bad just as much as he's actively trying to make them look bad. And I also agree it's the people who lose out in the end.
  30. #5505
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I'm not going to debate. The rationalizing in these things has become abundantly clear to me.

    In a debate you bring up points. These points will be analyzed by your opponents in the debate for flaws, because obviously they assume that their stance your stance is flawed, hence the debate.


    This stance you have right now, bringing up literally alternative sources, youtube accounts with less than 100 subscribers, old videos from before the actual relevant time periods with vague and ambiguous pictures which you can’t be sure are actually from the place they are purported to be from or what the actual context thereof is, news from sources which are demonstrably dubious etc, is weak AF IMO.


    Particularly if upon rebuttal you crawl into some sort of shell, “I won’t debate etc.”. It gives off the impression that you are not sure about where you stand. You are seemingly on quicksand and apparently you know and fear it full well.


    IMO, at some point, you have to step outside of that eco-chamber. Just try to take everything that’s happening in. Not just from a proTrump viewpoint no matter what, but from a different perspective as well.


    As an example: Why do people keep pointing out shit in Sweden, and then when you start looking for what the shit in Sweden is all about, you cannot find any actual, factual evidence except a FB post here and there, a tabloid newspaper saying OMG Sweden’s going down O EM EFFING G, a vid by some random youtube account etc. You should, at that point, start questioning whether the premise is actually correct or actually made up in order to further agenda’s which you believe wholeheartedly in, and therefore WANT this to actually be true to back your claims.


    You do understand that in today’s day and age, anyone can put up anything anywhere right? That is the definition of fake news, inventing something that didn’t happen, providing no evidence and yet keep claiming that it’s completely true.


    It’s not just because it happens to align with that which you fervently believe is true automatically make it true. Simplest example, it’s not just because you believe in god make it so that god exists, nor that it actually was jezus in that landslide.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...landslide.html


    Bonus irony points if you noticed the source






    Don’t go the Alex Jones way man, it’s not fun down that rabbit hole.


    Snap out of it Wuf! You are not lost yet young grasshopper!
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  31. #5506
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Well, as just one example, Trump's support base is chock full of people who feel that illegal Mexican immigration hurts the economy. Fewer jobs, stagnant wages, the burden on social programs, etc. Now we have a wall, and a promise to make Mexico pay for it. The media collectively wet themselves when Trump had a testy phone call with Nieto. And every Trump supporter also had to change their underwear, but for a different reason.

    A feeling does not a fact make


    Plus, have you read into the nuances about how the wall will presumably be financed?


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    You don't just get to declare what's valid and what isn't. And a 'large number of votes' is a perfectly salient argument if the issue is a matter of opinion, already adjudicated through an election.



    That’s, like, your opinion, man. Plus, elections should be won by the majority of voters, meaning that the actual majority of the people involved actually agreed upon the actual result of said election, but that too is apparently like, my opinion, man.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    No it doesn't. The fact that Trump won the election, proves this statement wrong.

    Poopadoop perfectly answered this particular point earlier. Winning an election does not make you immune to everything else you can think of.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  32. #5507
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Agree with the first part, not so much with the second part.
    Ok.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Trump's "behavior" (we'll just use that word for brevity's sake) is exactly what got him elected President. The only way he makes it to office is by doing and saying exactly what he did for the entire year and a half campaign. Trump didn't create that situation, he just worked within it, and leveraged it to his advantage. In other words, don't hate the playa, hate the game.
    That's one interpretation. Another is that Trump won despite a lot of his behavior, not because of it. He also had a lot of help from the incompetence of the other side.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    If the press is pissed off now that they realize that their own negativity actually transformed into Trump support...that's on them. Trying to correct that mistake through a campaign to de-legitimize a sitting President is sour grapes.
    If their own negativity transformed to Trump support, then more negativity doesn't seem like their best option.

    I think the press never liked him, covered him mostly because he sold newspapers, and continues to cover him for the same reasons. The fact that it's not implausible to most people that he's a scandal-ridden figure only encourages them to pursue that angle, again because it sells newspapers.

    I could be wrong, but I think the idea that the press is actively trying to ruin his presidency is a bit of a stretch. They're certainly not his friend anymore that's for sure. But he has definitely had a large role to play in that transformation through his treatment of them.
  33. #5508
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    What I think is not relevant in any way. I've already abandoned any patronage of American "News" agencies aside from the occasional curiosity.
    I have already come to your conclusions that the trash we are being offered is not news. It's hysteria, usually laughably predictably oriented along partisan lines.


    What's relevant is that you're further making my point that you find the news sources to be fully lacking in recognizing the dignity and humanity of an adult audience who want to make sense of the world, and not get caught up in melodramatic wastes of time.


    I don't get why, given that we agree that American "News" is anything but a sensible way for adults to learn about current events, do you patronize American news sources so regularly.


    I think you'll find more robust, comprehensive and non-partisan sources if you get away from the TV, and frankly, get away from US News sources. I agree with you that the state of news in the US is utter shit right now, but I don't understand why, if you think that, do you still patronize them.


    I don't understand why, given their ineffectual pandering to a biased audience you let them get under your skin.
    Can you explain this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    I think the press never liked him, covered him mostly because he sold newspapers, and continues to cover him for the same reasons. The fact that it's not implausible to most people that he's a scandal-ridden figure only encourages them to pursue that angle, again because it sells newspapers.


    I could be wrong, but I think the idea that the press is actively trying to ruin his presidency is a bit of a stretch. They're certainly not his friend anymore that's for sure. But he has definitely had a large role to play in that transformation through his treatment of them.



    Right on the fucking money (LOL, see what I did there ).


    This is what allows the BBC to have such great content, its funding. “News” companies sell you “news” for your viewership. It’s all about ads.


    So yes, in the end, it all boils down to that which pretty much everything boils down to: money.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  34. #5509
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Winning an election doesn't mean you have only half a constituency. The whole of Americans is still Trump's constituency, and that constituency has every right to determine if they think his actions are mistakes or not on a case by case basis.
    I truncated your quote, but I agree with what you're saying in principle. Ideologically, it makes sense that a President represents all americans, not just the ones who voted for him. However, in reality 2017, Trump is a hugely polarizing figure. And no matter what he does, people on the opposite pole will not be happy.

    Trump backed off a muslim-ban long ago during the campaign and instead moved to a middle-of-the-road policy that focuses on a small number areas deemed dangerous by two separate administrations. Not one of his detractors came out and said "that's a nice compromise". Instead, they took him to court.

    Students in NYC walked out of class to protest. Some were interviewed on TV and asked simple questions like "Do you know what countries are affected by the ban?" *crickets*.

    A compromise by Trump only loses support from his base, and gains no support from the other side. What do you expect him to do? Again, don't hate the player, hate the game.

    I think I drifted off topic here, but if you want things evaluated on a case by case basis, fine. Trump's personality was already evaluated during a 15 month campaign. It was deemed less than tasteful, but acceptable. He can change his tie, he can change his hair color, but he can't change who he is. Trump being himself is not a cause for scrutiny. We already know how that movie ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I don't get why, given that we agree that American "News" is anything but a sensible way for adults to learn about current events, do you patronize American news sources so regularly.
    We don't agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Do they, though?
    Does it, though?

    I am not convinced that there is a direct link between shitty reporting and policy changes.
    Huh? Everyone who consumes this 'shitty reporting' has a vote. That means what they believe, even if it's erroneous, matters. Trump owns nothing in Russia. He owes no one money in Russia. He has nothing more to gain from a cozy relationship with Putin than he does from a cozy relationship with say, the president of Argentina. Yet the New York times reported, shitty-ly, that the Trump campaign had phone calls with Russian people. The times doesn't say what those calls were about. Below the fold the mention that it's entirely plausible that the phone calls had nothing to do with the campaign at all.

    Yet now we have member of congress, who's salary we pay, convening a committee to investigate Trump's ties with Russia.

    Of course the media has influence. They played a HUGE role in getting both of our last two presidents elected. Though only one on purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I don't think Putin's that naive. If Putin thinks Trump is weak because of some, lets face it, privileged blowhards, then my money is on Trump walking all over him in trade negotiations by playing off of that naivety.
    I guess that remains to be seen. But Putin isn't going anywhere, and Trump has to win an election in 4 years time. If Trump looks weak, that undermines any promises or assurances he could make in negotiations. If Trump has a political interest in showing results, that gives Putin more leverage.

    Remember when Obama was caught on a hot mic talking to the Russian Ambassador? Most people probably don't because the MSM only covers fuck-ups by Republicans. This wasn't speculation about phone calls. This wasn't circumstantial evidence. Obama was caught on audio AND video saying to the Ambassador "Tell Vladimir I'll have more flexibility after the election". And he had a friendly press on his side. Imagine how much 'flexibility' Trump has right now?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I don't understand why, given their ineffectual pandering to a biased audience you let them get under your skin.
    Can you explain this?
    I just did. They aren't just hurting Trump, they're hurting America
    Last edited by BananaStand; 02-20-2017 at 03:48 PM.
  35. #5510
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Why do people keep pointing out shit in Sweden, and then when you start looking for what the shit in Sweden is all about, you cannot find any actual, factual evidence
    All evidence posted gets rationalized away in pretty silly ways. What's the point of going any further?
  36. #5511
    Why do people keep pointing out shit in Sweden, and then when you start looking for what the shit in Sweden is all about, you cannot find any actual, factual evidence
    Crime is up. It's not just because of changes in how they score rape. If that were the case, someone would be doing the math and saying, that the 7000 rapes per year in Sweden would only be X number of rapes under the old rules. And X is the same as it's always been, or consistent with other countries. No one has done that accounting. Or if they have done it, they aren't publishing the results.

    Part of the problem is that Sweden doesn't maintain crime statistics that delineate ethnicity or immigration status, the way we do in America. That makes it impossible to verify the anecdotal claims that the increase in violent crime is tied to increased immigration.

    But to say that there is nothing unusual going on in Sweden is really ostrich-y.

    I mean, crime statistics are way up, in a country that supposedly treats its poor so well. That doesn't add up. There's also more than a few folks suggesting that there are efforts to cover up some crimes for political reasons.

    It's probably not as bad as some people seem to believe. But I doubt it's all gumdrops and rainbows over there.

    What I find absolutely HILARIOUS is how many many many of the folks who denounce the claims about Swedish crime on the basis that there is no factual evidence, are the very same folks who have already convicted Trump of being in bed with the Russians, with absolutely no factual evidence to support it.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 02-20-2017 at 05:07 PM.
  37. #5512
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    However, in reality 2017, Trump is a hugely polarizing figure. And no matter what he does, people on the opposite pole will not be happy.
    Trump is polarizing, I agree.

    So was Obama. So was Bush. So was Clinton. So was Reagan.

    I don't remember Carter, but every I hear about him, I am humbled and realize that he is a better man than I.
    I'm pretty much never the correct spokesman for my group, though, so prob a lot of disagreement there, too.

    I don't see how other people's happiness is any motivation for a grown man... unless the other people are his family, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Trump backed off a muslim-ban long ago during the campaign and instead moved to a middle-of-the-road policy that focuses on a small number areas deemed dangerous by two separate administrations. Not one of his detractors came out and said "that's a nice compromise". Instead, they took him to court.
    Not one?
    Fake news.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Students in NYC walked out of class to protest. Some were interviewed on TV and asked simple questions like "Do you know what countries are affected by the ban?" *crickets*.
    not sure your point.
    Idiots are idiots?
    Kids are kids?

    People looking for an excuse to be angry will always find one, whether or not they are informed about the thing.

    ***
    I don't have time for the rest of the hyperbole and other superlative language you've used in this post.

    ***
    In what way do you and I not agree about American news.

    I thought you were basically saying what I'm saying.
  38. #5513
    The top post has dozens of sources on Sweden migrant crime. It appears the list doesn't include some of the most horrific cases (some of which I posted here a while back).

    https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/...ories_for_the/

    Are they all true? I don't know. But you can be damn sure the MSM doesn't cover rapes and murders committed against Swedes by Salafis.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 02-20-2017 at 05:53 PM.
  39. #5514
    Hell, the MSM barely even covers the rape and murder of Sufis by Salafis.
  40. #5515
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Crime is up. It's not just because of changes in how they score rape. If that were the case, someone would be doing the math and saying, that the 7000 rapes per year in Sweden would only be X number of rapes under the old rules. And X is the same as it's always been, or consistent with other countries. No one has done that accounting. Or if they have done it, they aren't publishing the results.

    Part of the problem is that Sweden doesn't maintain crime statistics that delineate ethnicity or immigration status, the way we do in America. That makes it impossible to verify the anecdotal claims that the increase in violent crime is tied to increased immigration.

    But to say that there is nothing unusual going on in Sweden is really ostrich-y.

    I mean, crime statistics are way up, in a country that supposedly treats its poor so well. That doesn't add up. There's also more than a few folks suggesting that there are efforts to cover up some crimes for political reasons.

    It's probably not as bad as some people seem to believe. But I doubt it's all gumdrops and rainbows over there.

    What I find absolutely HILARIOUS is how many many many of the folks who denounce the claims about Swedish crime on the basis that there is no factual evidence, are the very same folks who have already convicted Trump of being in bed with the Russians, with absolutely no factual evidence to support it.
    What crime is up exactly?

    2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
    Sex crimes total 1 038 985 1 055 1 090 1 324 1 398 1 217 1 167 1 139 1 161
    Rape 197 203 245 227 187 152 151 164 172 151
    Aggravated rape 30 14 17 26 17 16 20 14 23 25

    Murder 106 108 114 119 109 95 98 122 111 123
    Manslaughter 57 45 35 31 56 39 31 24 25 33

    ALL CRIMES 119 686 125 156 134 488 141 577 138 136 136 331 130 134 116 657 109 926 106 750

    "All conviction decisions by principal offence, year 2003-2013"
    .
    Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention
    .
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  41. #5516
    Report from a Swedish news outlet: police claim there are 53 zones they've lost control of. I am unable to assess veracity, but on the surface it appears to have some.

    http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/swedish...TAOU3FEx4ft.99
  42. #5517
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Crime is up. It's not just because of changes in how they score rape. If that were the case, someone would be doing the math and saying, that the 7000 rapes per year in Sweden would only be X number of rapes under the old rules. And X is the same as it's always been, or consistent with other countries. No one has done that accounting. Or if they have done it, they aren't publishing the results.


    Part of the problem is that Sweden doesn't maintain crime statistics that delineate ethnicity or immigration status, the way we do in America. That makes it impossible to verify the anecdotal claims that the increase in violent crime is tied to increased immigration.


    But to say that there is nothing unusual going on in Sweden is really ostrich-y.


    I mean, crime statistics are way up, in a country that supposedly treats its poor so well. That doesn't add up. There's also more than a few folks suggesting that there are efforts to cover up some crimes for political reasons.



    Please post your evidence as to what is going on and why you think the way you do.




    Because I can post something


    http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...-when-it-hurts


    As with everything, here is some more nuance


    Sweden, the story goes, used to be very peaceful, very safe, very blond. Then it started letting in
    darker-skinned people. Soon there were news reports of attacks on Swedes. Now, Sweden records the highest incidence of rape in the world.


    The Sweden story has become absolutely viral. You’ve probably read a
    version in a Facebook post, or heard it in a speech or debate. It is the
    argument-ender of the intolerant: To make the case against refugees, or
    immigration, or “Islam,” you recount a couple of stories about
    refugee-camp horrors, some random anecdotes of sex crimes involving
    brown people in various countries, and then drop the Sweden story.


    Behind it you’ll find the resurrection of an old, deadly appeal to fear – that people of certain skin colours are
    natural-born predators who threaten white women. It’s a version of lynch-mob logic that happens to appeal to the liberal and tolerant as much as the hateful and intolerant.


    And it falls apart as soon as you speak to anyone knowledgeable in Sweden.


    “What we’re hearing is a very, very extreme exaggeration based on a few isolated events, and the claim that it’s related to immigration is more or less not true at all,” says Jerzy Sarnecki, a criminologist at Stockholm University who has devoted his career to the study of criminality, ethnicity and age.


    Sweden does indeed have far more reported cases of sexual assault than any
    other country. But it’s not because Swedes – of any colour – are very
    criminal. It’s because they’re very feminist. In 2005, Sweden’s Social
    Democratic government introduced a new sex-crime law with the world’s
    most expansive definition of rape.


    Imagine, for example, if your boss rubbed against you in an unwanted way at work
    once a week for a year. In Canada, this would potentially be a case of
    sexual assault. Under Germany’s more limited laws, it would be zero
    cases. In Sweden, it would be tallied as 52 separate cases of rape. If
    you engaged in a half-dozen sex acts with your spouse, then later you
    felt you had not given consent, in Sweden that would be classified as
    six cases of rape.


    The marked increase in rape cases during the 2000s is almost entirely a reflection of
    Sweden’s deep public interest in sexual equality and the rights of
    women, not of attacks by newcomers.


    But aren’t refugees and immigrants responsible for a greater share of Sweden’s sexual assaults?


    In a sense. Statistics show that the foreign-born in Sweden, as in most European countries, do have
    a higher rate of criminal charges than the native-born, in everything
    from shoplifting to murder (though not enough to affect the crime rate
    by more than a tiny margin). The opposite is true in North America,
    where immigrants have lower-than-average crime rates.


    Why the difference? Because people who go to Sweden are poorer, and crime
    rates are mostly a product not of ethnicity but of class. In a 2013 analysis of
    63,000 Swedish residents, Prof. Sarnecki and his colleagues found that
    75 per cent of the difference in foreign-born crime is accounted for by
    income and neighbourhood, both indicators of poverty. Among the
    Swedish-born children of immigrants, the crime rate falls in half (and
    is almost entirely concentrated in lesser property crimes) and is
    100-per-cent attributable to class – they are no more likely to commit
    crimes, including rape, than ethnic Swedes of the same family income.


    What also stands out is that almost all the victims of these crimes –
    especially sex crimes – are also foreign-born. But for a handful of
    headline-grabbing atrocities, it isn’t a case of swarthy men preying on
    white women, but of Sweden’s system turning refugees into victims of
    crime.


    That is the real Swedish crisis.Refugee shelters are terrible, dangerous places, whoever is in them.
    When such shelters, then known as displaced persons camps, held millions
    of Europeans in the 1940s and 1950s, histories show they were at risk of sexual predation and organized attacks against Jewish refugees.


    Because otherwise generous Sweden doesn’t allow refugees to seek work until
    they know the language, tens of thousands of people are stuck in these
    awful places, in similar conditions, or in welfare-dependent netherworlds.


    There they become victims of violent crime, victims of economic exclusion and victims of a
    grotesque, viral story that portrays them as predators, entirely because of their skin colour.







    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    It's probably not as bad as some people seem to believe. But I doubt it's all gumdrops and rainbows over there.


    What I find absolutely HILARIOUS is how many many many of the folks who denounce the claims about Swedish crime on the basis that there is no factual evidence, are the very same folks who have already convicted Trump of being in bed with the Russians, with absolutely no factual evidence to support it.

    I was dismissive of TEH RUSSIANS but then Michael Flynn resigned/got fired. Then there was a whole timeline of things that shouldn’t have happened. It’s a quite odd thing












    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    All evidence posted gets rationalized away in pretty silly ways. What's the point of going any further?

    You posted evidence, I questioned your evidence posting the reasons why I thought your presented evidence as being completely shaky. You can definitely come up with better evidence for your point I imagine?
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


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  43. #5518
    Hilary 2020...
  44. #5519
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Report from a Swedish news outlet: police claim there are 53 zones they've lost control of. I am unable to assess veracity, but on the surface it appears to have some.


    http://www.wnd.com/wnd_video/swedish...TAOU3FEx4ft.99



    Aah, worldnetdaily. Ground zero for the birther movement during the ’08 and ’12 elections.


    Anyway, on to the issue at question. In the vid, it showed about “islamic riots sweden”.


    A quick google search and it brings you right back to worldnetdaily. And gates online.




    Now there were riots in Stockholm in 2013. 150 cars were put on fire. Most of this was was covered in the post I put above. There just weren’t any in 2016/7 AFAICT. There aren’t other links to this happening literally anywhere but a specific few websites sharing one common goal.




    Either this is one of the greatest coverups in history, or it’s much simpler than that what is actually going on.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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  45. #5520
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanDam View Post
    Hilary 2020...

    Hillary is a pathetic excuse of a corporate shill who lost to the worst candidate in history of US elections, meaning she is the defacto worst US Presidential Candidate ever and all of time.


    She boxed out Bernie but couldn’t hit a wide-open layup against Trump
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  46. #5521
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    She's run more than once, and had a serious shot at it this time and couldn't win.
    If someone keeps trying something and failing, for whatever reason, people tend to label them as incapable of succeeding at that endeavor.

    I'll be surprised if she gets another serious shot.
  47. #5522
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I'm interested in hearing more about in which ways your views have changed.
    I think I've come to the point where I think the most fruitful economy will be a capitalist one free of regulations. I would say I'm conflicted between this point of view on the one hand, and on the other a need for the state to control critical infrastructure. I was very much anti-capitalist when I first started posting here, not so much now. I think this is largely because I've come to realise that what we have isn't pure capitalism, and the problems I have with this system are more related to the aspects of the system which are anti-capitalist. For example, monopolies hurt the economy by depriving the market of competition. Excessive laws hurt the economy too, the obvious example is that I'm claiming benefits instead of growing weed and paying tax.

    There are still major issues I have with capitalism, but I'll find major issue with any system that might otherwise appear appealing. For example, anarchy is a great idea until you realise that most people are cunts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  48. #5523
    She had to rig the machines to beat Comrade Sanders.
  49. #5524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    She boxed out Bernie but couldn’t hit a wide-open layup against Trump
    I don't think you understand the appeal of Trump to his supporters.

    A lot of people feel like the gov't is acting against their concerns. They see the existing system as flawed and full of people who are elitist and disconnected from "the common man." Hillary Clinton was a poster child for this cronyism. Donald Trump, who has never held public office (?) and doesn't pick and choose his words like a stuffy prick represents the antithesis of a career politician.

    It's not that Hillary had it all and lost it.
  50. #5525
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think I've come to the point where I think the most fruitful economy will be a capitalist one free of regulations. I would say I'm conflicted between this point of view on the one hand, and on the other a need for the state to control critical infrastructure. I was very much anti-capitalist when I first started posting here, not so much now. I think this is largely because I've come to realise that what we have isn't pure capitalism, and the problems I have with this system are more related to the aspects of the system which are anti-capitalist. For example, monopolies hurt the economy by depriving the market of competition. Excessive laws hurt the economy too, the obvious example is that I'm claiming benefits instead of growing weed and paying tax.

    There are still major issues I have with capitalism, but I'll find major issue with any system that might otherwise appear appealing. For example, anarchy is a great idea until you realise that most people are cunts.
    Great stuff. I am happy to hear it.

    If I may quote Adam Smith: "it's not by the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but by their pursuit of their own interest." Derived from this concept is the Invisible Hand, that is, how a free market of competing self-interest-pursuing-individuals unintentionally organizes society to benefit those in it. When greed is monopolized, it's bad. When competitive, well, maybe Smith was right, maybe then greed is good*.

    *Meaning that it results in good. Greed is sorta by nature not a moral good, but the claim I've presented is that competitive greed on the micro level unintentionally results in moral good at the macro level.
  51. #5526
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I don't think you understand the appeal of Trump to his supporters.

    A lot of people feel like the gov't is acting against their concerns. They see the existing system as flawed and full of people who are elitist and disconnected from "the common man." Hillary Clinton was a poster child for this cronyism. Donald Trump, who has never held public office (?) and doesn't pick and choose his words like a stuffy prick represents the antithesis of a career politician.

    It's not that Hillary had it all and lost it.
    You are right.

    There are a ton of Bernouts who crossed over to Trump that can be found on r/t_d. A good deal of them decided to cross over for the exact reason you stated.
  52. #5527
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    She had to rig the machines to beat Comrade Sanders.

    We agree 100%
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    Cogito ergo sum

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  53. #5528
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Please post your evidence as to what is going on and why you think the way you do.
    Mostly I'm just going with the "where there is smoke, there's fire" mentality. I don't believe this situation was imagined out of thin air. Also, I can't put my finger on the link right now, so believe this at your own risk, but I do remember reading that an abysmally low percentage, like 0.3 of the immigrant population has jobs. There's no way you can increase poverty without increasing crime, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Skimmed it, but the chart at the bottom that shows crime as relatively flat....doesn't jive with this one that I found.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden
    In the Wiki chart, crime is up. It looks flatter than it is because all crimes are charted on the same scale. Sexual offenses go from 90-ish to 170-ish. That's almost double in 20 years. If it were really just a difference in how they keep score.....the line wouldn't be so gradual. there would be a steep increase in the year the rule changed, and then go flat from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    As with everything, here is some more nuance
    Poop and I debated this weeks ago, and this same article came up.

    Prof. Sarnecki and his colleagues found that
    75 per cent of the difference in foreign-born crime is accounted for by
    income and neighbourhood, both indicators of poverty.
    What accounts for the other 25%?

    Also, this article really pisses me off because it just sort of decides middle way through to stop talking about rape specifically, and zoom out on crime as a whole. Once it does that, then it can blame the whole mess on poverty. And that's really not ok in my opinion since rape is less motivated by poverty than say murder and robbery.

    Black people in America account for 50% of the murders and robberies in the US, even though they only account for 13% of the population. That's a disparity explained, at least mostly, by the disproportionate poverty experienced by black communities. If poverty affected all crimes equally, then black people should also account for 50% of the rapes and sexual assaults in the US. But yet, they don't.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    I was dismissive of TEH RUSSIANS but then Michael Flynn resigned/got fired. Then there was a whole timeline of things that shouldn’t have happened. It’s a quite odd thing
    I linked a report that the gov't put out on this. It seemed to conclude that the Russians are just pricks who liked to fuck with the US. They blame us for their doping trouble in the Olympics, and some other shit we did to piss them off. They have a grudge against Hillary and wanted to weaken her. The report even detailed some twitter hashtags and things that the russian gov't planned to do on election night after a Hillary victory. They never ever suspected Trump would win. All of their efforts were directed at Hillary. Unbelievably, CNN presented the link within a sentence that I'm paraphrasing - US Intelligence determines that Russians hacked democrats to help Trump

    Trump could have hired a high school kid to hack Podesta. He didn't need Russian intelligence.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 02-20-2017 at 08:08 PM.
  54. #5529
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I don't think you understand the appeal of Trump to his supporters.


    A lot of people feel like the gov't is acting against their concerns. They see the existing system as flawed and full of people who are elitist and disconnected from "the common man." Hillary Clinton was a poster child for this cronyism. Donald Trump, who has never held public office (?) and doesn't pick and choose his words like a stuffy prick represents the antithesis of a career politician.


    It's not that Hillary had it all and lost it.



    Well put, and this is the reason why I can’t stand her.




    She could not do the same tactics on a national level that she did to oust Comrade Sanders as wuf puts it. Shit got real. She jus flat out never campaigned in the Blue Wall, taking those votes for granted.


    Her campaign slogan was “I’m with her!” Wow, such creative work, I wonder how much they paid to get that one.


    She wanted the presidency to be given to her because of and only due to the fact that she had(s) a vagina. You can’t win like that. She was set up for failure. In all seriousness, she should have won by like 30M votes against a non-politician.


    But as you say, the American people were not as dumb as she expected. I have never seen so much treachery in one person, so yeah, I can’t stand Hillary. She did have a theoretical wide open layup against a non-politician, but couldn’t deliver as she forgot to campaign and expected people to show up and vote for her for the sole fact that she has a pussy. That’s not how it works.


    Sanders would have cleaned house with Trump. Issue for issue, the American people side with Sanders policies. But it’s not in the best interests of the donors for him to be elected, so they did an actual shitshow (felt during the campaign, but later factually demonstrated due the leaks by the alleged Russians) to get him ousted, and even so he almost got the nomination anyway. He’s an actual straight shooter, and you just can’t have those around.


    That woman is pathetic though.
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    Cogito ergo sum

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  55. #5530
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    the American people side with Sanders policies.
    Of course they do. More free stuff for everybody except the half-dozen or so rich people hoarding all the cash in this country. Who could say no to that? No one seems to care that his policies would bring the economy to a standstill. To me, Bernie illustrated perfectly why a popular vote is a terrible idea. Just run through NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Atlanta, Denver, San Fran, Seattle, and Miami....promise everyone a check and a free puppy, viola....you're president.

    I hope the GOP gets on board with this super-delagate shit.
  56. #5531
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Of course they do. More free stuff for everybody except the half-dozen or so rich people hoarding all the cash in this country. Who could say no to that? No one seems to care that his policies would bring the economy to a standstill. To me, Bernie illustrated perfectly why a popular vote is a terrible idea. Just run through NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Atlanta, Denver, San Fran, Seattle, and Miami....promise everyone a check and a free puppy, viola....you're president.

    I hope the GOP gets on board with this super-delagate shit.
    That's funny, because I often argue in an anti-democracy vein. But this election has made me less skeptical and more hopeful that democracy might be a basic good.

    Also, if it was a popular vote election, Trump not only campaigns differently, but he also messages differently. He probably flat-out wouldn't say what he did about Mexico in the first place.

    If the GOP had super-delegates, we may be looking at candidate !Jeb!
  57. #5532
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    If the GOP had super-delegates, we may be looking at candidate !Jeb!

    Hahahaha, it's funny because it's true
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  58. #5533
    In a trial, both sides are represented by attorneys. Attorneys are professional deceivers, and each gets a chance to convince the jury of innocence or guilt. With unlimited latitude, each side could present evidence convincing enough to sway a jury's decision their way. By presenting evidence that panders to jury's emotions, or is heavily prejudicial, these professional deceivers can literally manipulate 12 people into delivering the outcome they want.

    To prevent that, we have a judge who decides which evidence is fair to present, and what isn't.

    Politicians are just as deceitful as attorneys. Often they are the same people. They are totally capable of winning votes by lying, deceiving, manipulating, pandering, and otherwise making unrealistic arguments. There needs to be some kind of control for when Bernie promises everyone a rainbow in their living room.

    On the GOP side, I wouldn't hate a President Jeb. At the time, it seemed unlikely that he could beat Hillary. But looking back now at how shitty a job Hillary did on the campaign....I think he would have been fine.

    I'll trade Trump for Jeb straight up, right now.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 02-20-2017 at 08:37 PM.
  59. #5534
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Of course they do. More free stuff for everybody except the half-dozen or so rich people hoarding all the cash in this country. Who could say no to that? No one seems to care that his policies would bring the economy to a standstill. To me, Bernie illustrated perfectly why a popular vote is a terrible idea. Just run through NY, LA, Chicago, Boston, Houston, Atlanta, Denver, San Fran, Seattle, and Miami....promise everyone a check and a free puppy, viola....you're president.

    I hope the GOP gets on board with this super-delagate shit.
    E.G. Comrade Bernie was promising free education, by redirecting funds currently allocated to keeping wars going to educate your people. Are you against free education? Color me biased there because I am definitely for free education for everyone in all walks of life; an educated populace has too many benefits too mention, including but definitely not limited to dramatic reduction in crime rates, incarcerations, etc.

    Intelligent people are more difficult to fool as well. No student loan to burden you forever, which is debt you can't get out of even if you go bankrupt. More and better jobs for everyone, because people would have more ideas and knowhow in how to run businesses, higher level skills, ability to discern gaps in the market and use their educations to seize the opportunities provided, among many many other benefits. It's a utopia, but one that was definitely achievable in our lifetimes.

    I don't understand how people can be against free education. If given the opportunity, would you prefer to keep wars going (with every consequence thereof, like blemishing the US in the eyes of other countries etc., getting more and more enemies by the day therefore needing more war) rather than give your population free education?
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  60. #5535
    jeb wouldn't come remotely close to doing as good of a job as trump has so far.
  61. #5536
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    In a trial, both sides are represented by attorneys. Attorneys are professional deceivers, and each gets a chance to convince the jury of innocence or guilt. With unlimited latitude, each side could present evidence convincing enough to sway a jury's decision their way. By presenting evidence that panders to jury's emotions, or is heavily prejudicial, these professional deceivers can literally manipulate 12 people into delivering the outcome they want.


    To prevent that, we have a judge who decides which evidence is fair to present, and what isn't.


    Politicians are just as deceitful as attorneys. Often they are the same people. They are totally capable of winning votes by lying, deceiving, manipulating, pandering, and otherwise making unrealistic arguments. There needs to be some kind of control for when Bernie promises everyone a rainbow in their living room.



    Politicians are *more* deceitful than attorneys. Hold the lying and conniving cunts accountable for what they do and say. I agree with you 100%.



    Bernie, however, has a track record of doing exactly that which he says he would do and has done. It’s unnatural by your politicians standards, it’s unlikely we will ever see this again.


    Elections over. Where is Hillary? Nowhere to be found. The only mention of Hillary after the elections were that she was holding a party for her donors. As in, fuck the American people, her donors are important.


    Bernie, however, went to Standing Rock marches in Washington DC to protest the pipeline with the people who were there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6tzrAykz8M


    Bernie has been very vocal in opposition to many things Trump has been doing, which he apparently was against during his whole campaign (and professional career). He grilled appointee after appointee, etc.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=464GWbS2zy4


    He promised, and delivered, tuition-free college in New York state.
    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...te-200010.html


    The dude really truly seems to practice what he preaches, and has been doing this for decades.










    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    On the GOP side, I wouldn't hate a President Jeb. At the time, it seemed unlikely that he could beat Hillary. But looking back now at how shitty a job Hillary did on the campaign....I think he would have been fine.


    I'll trade Trump for Jeb straight up, right now.

    I completely agree with you brother, trade Trump for Jeb. You could probably get a 2nd round draft pick as well.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  62. #5537
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Are you against free education?
    Extremely. Public education is so bad. An otherwise robust system of education has been usurped and turned into a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism, and hiveminds. So many students are being taught so many things that do not benefit them and instead are being molded into depressed drones of mediocre skills.

    Getting the government out of education would yield an amazing revolution of thought and culture.
  63. #5538
    I don't agree with free education, assuming you're talking about college. K-12 should still be free. Actually, have you read MY presidential platform? It was a while back in the shit-posting thread, but I laid out how I could solve every one of this country's problems by shutting down high schools. It started as a joke, but the more i think about it, the more I think it could work.

    Free college education is wrong in my opinion, and I'll explain why:

    First, it's too expensive. The reason it's expensive is because the Clinton administration decided that it was a right, and gave everyone access to cheap government loans. Most business will add up their costs of providing a service, add a profit margin, refine it by comparing the results to market rates, and finally publish a price. Colleges simply ask "how much is the gov't giving kids these days? That's how much tuition costs". So when Roody Poo state does that, it empowers Harvard to charge several times more. And the whole market gets fucked. Adding MORE cash to that money pit seems totally In-friggen-sane.

    Secondly, community colleges are relatively cheap. I've seen places that charge as little as $150 per credit. If you're an 18 year old, employable, and living with your parents, you should be able to work and pay your own way through college. If you're not supported by your parents, you'll probably have to take fewer classes at a time, perhaps take a little longer to finish your degree. While that's unfortunate that some people have to work harder than others, it's not an injustice that needs government intervention.

    Thirdly, and I'll have to find a link for this, but the stat I heard is that 30% of community college curriculum are remedial. My tax dollars are funding high schools that the gov't can't run effectively. There's no way you'll convince me to shell out more money for colleges to go back and fix what our high schools fucked up.

    College became accessible to pretty much everyone over 20 years ago. Now it seems that's not good enough. Everyone wants the residential college experience. And I'm not supporting that with my tax dollars.

    Basically, if the reasoning behind free college is the assumption that a person can't be competitive economically without a college degree.....then the problem is in K-12. If a high school graduate can't compete, then the problem is high schools, not a lack of college.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 02-20-2017 at 09:11 PM.
  64. #5539
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Extremely. Public education is so bad. An otherwise robust system of education has been usurped and turned into a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism, and hiveminds. So many students are being taught so many things that do not benefit them and instead are being molded into depressed drones of mediocre skills.


    Getting the government out of education would yield an amazing revolution of thought and culture.

    Alright. You are saying that public education is so bad, because over time it’s a become a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism and hive-minds. People are being taught skills that they will not use in practice and therefore they are being molded into depressed drones.


    I do agree that some education institutions have become degree mills, and those have to be weeded out. The irony is that most of these degree mills will give you a degree if you pay them, and that’s that. A degree does not necessarily mean a proper education. So, this proposal has the be met with certain standards by which the studies and schools have to adhere to. Fail to adhere to these, close up shop, GTFO.


    I say that if the education is completely free and easily available to all, you would get higher quality of life and of workers across the board. All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it. It’s not because it’s free that this automatically means that the quality of the education will suffer somehow. All these are standards which properly implemented regulatory agencies can ensure that the institutions can adhere to.


    That’s all there is to it.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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  65. #5540
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Alright. You are saying that public education is so bad, because over time it’s a become a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism and hive-minds. People are being taught skills that they will not use in practice and therefore they are being molded into depressed drones.


    I do agree that some education institutions have become degree mills, and those have to be weeded out. The irony is that most of these degree mills will give you a degree if you pay them, and that’s that. A degree does not necessarily mean a proper education. So, this proposal has the be met with certain standards by which the studies and schools have to adhere to. Fail to adhere to these, close up shop, GTFO.


    I say that if the education is completely free and easily available to all, you would get higher quality of life and of workers across the board. All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it. It’s not because it’s free that this automatically means that the quality of the education will suffer somehow. All these are standards which properly implemented regulatory agencies can ensure that the institutions can adhere to.


    That’s all there is to it.
    Why don't they just do all that with K-12?
  66. #5541
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    First, it's too expensive. The reason it's expensive is because the Clinton administration decided that it was a right, and gave everyone access to cheap government loans. Most business will add up their costs of providing a service, add a profit margin, refine it by comparing the results to market rates, and finally publish a price. Colleges simply ask "how much is the gov't giving kids these days? That's how much tuition costs". So when Roody Poo state does that, it empowers Harvard to charge several times more. And the whole market gets fucked. Adding MORE cash to that money pit seems totally In-friggen-sane.

    I agree with you. It’s expensive as fuck. And the prices keep going up. Back when I started at the Uni, I had to pay an equivalent of $300 per year. Nowadays it’s pegged at around $3000 per year, and keeps going up. It makes no sense, since nothing changed, only the government decided to stop subsidizing the university, to start putting money is not useful stuff.


    If you make it free, for everyone at every institution, these costs can be held in check. One thing of note though: every college should be the same. I know that’s a completely foreign concept for Americans, but bear with me: In the Netherlands, every single college adheres to the same standards. It doesn’t matter whether you go to TU Delft (North AF), Unimaas (like a bike ride away from Belgium), Erasmus (R’dam, one of the most famous and busiest port cities across the pond of England) or on Curaçao (Caribbean island part of the kingdom, where I’m at) the actual studies are exactly equal and are all good AF compared to other countries. Govt. made sure of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Secondly, community colleges are relatively cheap. I've seen places that charge as little as $150 per credit. If you're an 18 year old, employable, and living with your parents, you should be able to work and pay your own way through college. If you're not supported by your parents, you'll probably have to take fewer classes at a time, perhaps take a little longer to finish your degree. While that's unfortunate that some people have to work harder than others, it's not an injustice that needs government intervention.

    If you focus on your studies before this, it would be better for you in the long run. Not working while studying is better for you to concentrate on getting your shit done. There’s always the army to enlist and still get education for those who don’t want to study anything. And the truly lazy can simply wait tables, and not care about education at all. It’s a free country after all.


    Once again, the money is there, as measured by the literal trillions being spent in nation building abroad. Spend it on your own citizens!





    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Thirdly, and I'll have to find a link for this, but the stat I heard is that 30% of community college curriculum are remedial. My tax dollars are funding high schools that the gov't can't run effectively. There's no way you'll convince me to shell out more money for colleges to go back and fix what our high schools fucked up.


    College became accessible to pretty much everyone over 20 years ago. Now it seems that's not good enough. Everyone wants the residential college experience. And I'm not supporting that with my tax dollars.


    Basically, if the reasoning behind free college is the assumption that a person can't be competitive economically without a college degree.....then the problem is in K-12. If a high school graduate can't compete, then the problem is high schools, not a lack of college.

    Then this has to be taken care of. It has to start from the ground up. People have to take a cold hard look at the current state of education, where it fucked up or is fucking up, and fix it. Again, the money is there, you are already paying tax dollars which are being spent elsewhere in nation building, foreign wars, drone strikes etc. Start spending it on your own citizens!




    Bigly!




    The current state of affairs is if you want to get educated, you will undoubtedly end up with a huge student loan debt on your shoulders which you have to work your ass off to pay off. Or you need rich parents, or you need to be athletic enough to land a sports scholarship (which means you have to concentrate on sinking 3’s and not on what the capital of Eritrea is). It’s too big a burden for many, and if this can be eliminated then there is no doubt that your society as a whole will benefit tremendously.
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  67. #5542
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Why don't they just do all that with K-12?

    They are not doing anything at any level apparently and that has to change. People have to start giving more of a fuck rather than just accept the status quo and running with it.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  68. #5543
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Alright. You are saying that public education is so bad, because over time it’s a become a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism and hive-minds. People are being taught skills that they will not use in practice and therefore they are being molded into depressed drones.


    I do agree that some education institutions have become degree mills, and those have to be weeded out. The irony is that most of these degree mills will give you a degree if you pay them, and that’s that. A degree does not necessarily mean a proper education. So, this proposal has the be met with certain standards by which the studies and schools have to adhere to. Fail to adhere to these, close up shop, GTFO.


    I say that if the education is completely free and easily available to all, you would get higher quality of life and of workers across the board. All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it. It’s not because it’s free that this automatically means that the quality of the education will suffer somehow. All these are standards which properly implemented regulatory agencies can ensure that the institutions can adhere to.


    That’s all there is to it.
    "Free" education is partly a problem due to how the "freeness" perverts incentives. Another reason is that the government monopoly takes a jackhammer to the quality of education.
  69. #5544
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    All you have to do is incentivize the attending of the schools, that’s it.
    I'll add that we already have this. Incentivizing education is not a bad thing. It's actually a very good thing. The problem is that the incentive is to enroll in a pretty monopolized system. It's so unfair for so many people.
  70. #5545
    Operation Destroy Milo is underway. Day 1 is a resounding success. He's off CPAC and his book deal is dropped.

    He was taken out of context, those trying to destroy him actually don't care about those things when their stars do them (Dunham), and they are those at the spearhead of ruining regular Americans' lives. Looks like patriots and defenders of freedom have to circle the wagons for Milo now. Gotta stop the scoundrels yet again. This might be a real tough one. They planted the pedo supporter label on him with the opening kick. They don't care what they ruin as long as they keep their power.
  71. #5546
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Extremely. Public education is so bad. An otherwise robust system of education has been usurped and turned into a factory churning out laziness, self-criticism, and hiveminds. So many students are being taught so many things that do not benefit them and instead are being molded into depressed drones of mediocre skills.

    Getting the government out of education would yield an amazing revolution of thought and culture.
    That's one point of view, here's another:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/national...m_source=atlfb
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  72. #5547
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Skimmed it, but the chart at the bottom that shows crime as relatively flat....doesn't jive with this one that I found.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden
    In the Wiki chart, crime is up. It looks flatter than it is because all crimes are charted on the same scale. Sexual offenses go from 90-ish to 170-ish. That's almost double in 20 years. If it were really just a difference in how they keep score.....the line wouldn't be so gradual. there would be a steep increase in the year the rule changed, and then go flat from there.
    It doesn't show crime, it shows reported crime. I just posted you the convictions, which show a 23% drop in rape in the past 10 years, and a 10% drop in all crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    What accounts for the other 25%?
    I'd say lack of integration. There are fairly heavy requirements on many jobs for swedish language proficiency, and not all foreign education or diplomas are regarded as sufficient. It is harder for an immigrant to land a job, and this leads to problems.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  73. #5548
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    It doesn't show crime, it shows reported crime. I just posted you the convictions, which show a 23% drop in rape in the past 10 years, and a 10% drop in all crimes.
    But, maths though! Are those counting incidents, or offenders? It doesn't follow that reported crime could be up so much, and convictions go down at the same time. In other words, if a guy rapes his wife every day for a year, that's 365 reported incidents. If he's convicted, how many convictions is that? There's been more than a few accusations lobbed at the Swedish government for cooking the books. Something's not right here.

    The UN seems to disagree with the reported drop in conviction rates. They're measuring convicts per capita, which is a function of population, not some convoluted statistics scheme.

    The United Nations holds official statistics on the number of convictions for rape per 100,000 people and actually, by that measure, Sweden has the highest number of convictions per capita in Europe, bar Russia. In 2010, 3.7 convictions were achieved per 100,000 population.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372
    It's really tough to trust any numbers in this. And I simply don't believe that the concern was invented out of thin air.

    I guess, let's just put it this way...

    Would you let your daughter spend a year as a college exchange student in Sweden?

    I would not.
  74. #5549
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    I'd say lack of integration. There are fairly heavy requirements on many jobs for swedish language proficiency, and not all foreign education or diplomas are regarded as sufficient. It is harder for an immigrant to land a job, and this leads to problems.
    Income and neighborhood were already accounted for in the 75%.
  75. #5550
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    But, maths though! Are those counting incidents, or offenders? It doesn't follow that reported crime could be up so much, and convictions go down at the same time. In other words, if a guy rapes his wife every day for a year, that's 365 reported incidents. If he's convicted, how many convictions is that? There's been more than a few accusations lobbed at the Swedish government for cooking the books. Something's not right here.

    The UN seems to disagree with the reported drop in conviction rates. They're measuring convicts per capita, which is a function of population, not some convoluted statistics scheme.

    It's really tough to trust any numbers in this. And I simply don't believe that the concern was invented out of thin air.
    That could well be, but still I think those should matter more than reported cases. Apparently 53% of the reported rapes in Sweden are dismissed for lack of conclusive evidence. Then again comparing global conviction or reporting rates with wildly different legislations, cultures and practices makes the whole thing anything but clear.

    Point being, I see nothing in the statistics to warrant the conclusion of Sweden being some exceptionally rapey place, and that it's due to immigration. There are though very clear political benefits from creating this narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I guess, let's just put it this way...

    Would you let your daughter spend a year as a college exchange student in Sweden?

    I would not.
    You gotta be kidding. Humans are inherently lolbad at risk management, we tend to either massively exaggerate or completely ignore many risks. In Sweden, the chance of being the victim of rape is six hundredths of a percent, 6 rapes per 10 000 people. That's pretty much exactly the same chance as being murdered in the US. Murders in Sweden? 2 per 100 000.

    Would you let your daughter spend a year as a college student in the US?
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

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