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  1. #6901
    Cartels seem to arise when government over-regulates. Drug cartels are a picture perfect example of this.
  2. #6902
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Cartels seem to arise when government over-regulates. Drug cartels are a picture perfect example of this.
    Thing is, you're not going to find many people who consider drug laws, especially anti-cocaine laws, to be over-regulation.

    And government is weak because it is failing to uphold law and order. In Cartel country, government is pretty much non-existant... anarchy reigns.

    Cartels thrive where regulations are not enforced, though they exist because regulations exist. An interesting paradox.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #6903
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    Interesting article...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0d8dde999a687

    tl;dr... Japanese bitch claims she received hate mail, blames Trump for his divisive language etc.

    Tomas Wictor (thanks for that rec Wuf) has debunked this to fuck...

    https://twitter.com/ThomasWictor/sta...39634680758272

    Huff update the article, claiming USPS spokesman says the barcode is applied by them.

    Evidence suggests otherwise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_Mail_barcode

    The barcode is applied by the sender
    Pretty sure this bitch is lying, and Huff are covering her tracks because it's anti-Trump juice.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #6904
    glad you like Wictor. He's a different breed.
  5. #6905
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Thing is, you're not going to find many people who consider drug laws, especially anti-cocaine laws, to be over-regulation.

    And government is weak because it is failing to uphold law and order. In Cartel country, government is pretty much non-existant... anarchy reigns.

    Cartels thrive where regulations are not enforced, though they exist because regulations exist. An interesting paradox.
    It certainly is the case that cartels thrive where there is insufficiency and ineffectiveness of government execution in its area of oversight. The insufficiency and ineffectiveness is perfectly natural, though, since the government being designated as having total oversight creates moral hazard that deters any others from stepping in and solving the problems. This means that when government can't solve the problem (a thing that happens normally), the problem won't be solved. In free markets, instead of there being one potential problem solver like when government monopolizes, there are unlimited numbers of problem solvers. This is why free markets have a history of solving problems and governments do not.
  6. #6906
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    In free markets, instead of there being one potential problem solver like when government monopolizes, there are unlimited numbers of problem solvers. This is why free markets have a history of solving problems and governments do not.

    Market fundamentalism?


    I'm still researching that other thing
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  7. #6907
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Market fundamentalism?
    What do you mean?
  8. #6908
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    What do you mean?
    You are the economist here wuf, you should know what that means, where that is from and why I mentioned that in relation to your words above
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  9. #6909
    I've never heard the term in my studies. So I looked it up and notice Joe Stiglitz has popularized it (or helped to do so). It's worth noting that his thesis regarding why market fundamentalism doesn't work is contradicted by his explanation for why it doesn't work. He makes a common mistake of saying that we don't have a free market therefore when our non-free market failed it means the free market failed. This sounds really stupid when put in direct terms like I did, but trust me it's a very common mistake.
  10. #6910
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I've never heard the term in my studies. So I looked it up and notice Joe Stiglitz has popularized it (or helped to do so). It's worth noting that his thesis regarding why market fundamentalism doesn't work is contradicted by his explanation for why it doesn't work. He makes a common mistake of saying that we don't have a free market therefore when our non-free market failed it means the free market failed. This sounds really stupid when put in direct terms like I did, but trust me it's a very common mistake.
    You do the inverse all the time.

    "Even though we don't have a planned economy, this problem with the economy is due to these aspects of it which resemble a planned economy."
  11. #6911
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You do the inverse all the time.

    "Even though we don't have a planned economy, this problem with the economy is due to these aspects of it which resemble a planned economy."
    If it seems I make generalizations like this, it is not my intention and I apologize.

    The distinction I am attempting to make here is that this mode of logic is wrong: we lived in a particular type of situation; failure happened in system; therefore the aforementioned particular type of situation is a failure. That mode of logic is wrong, at least in the situation I am referencing, since the premise is false. We never lived in that "particular type of situation" in the first place, so failure within the system is not evidence of failure of that particular type of situation.*

    That is a mistake I try to be aware of and not make myself. I try to keep my logic as follows: we live in neither a fully planned nor fully free situation; failure has happened within that system; here's how that failure could be attributed to government planning. If I don't give as specific of details as you would like, ask me please.


    *This is a chief criticism of mainstream economists' political claims from a subset of economists (and others) who favor free markets. Both of my macro professors, both of whom are mainstream, claimed that the Great Depression was an example of failure of the free market; therefore regulation is needed. But they are wrong that the Great Depression happened in a system of free markets. It was the most intensely regulated market in American history up to that point. And not only that, but free market economists have since detailed extensively exactly how the system collapsed due to what regulators did (namely, the Fed). That view has since become consensus by the Fed since. At least it was until 2008, when the Fed made the same damn mistake, which resulted in crisis that sent many economists scrambling to rationalize in the same false way their erstwhile colleagues did regarding the Great Depression.
  12. #6912
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    That is a mistake I try to be aware of and not make myself. I try to keep my logic as follows: we live in neither a fully planned nor fully free situation; failure has happened within that system; here's how that failure could be attributed to government planning. If I don't give as specific of details as you would like, ask me please.

    And yet the fully free market system is without fault. Nothing can go wrong there, ergo a failure in that situation is surely impossible.


    What do you think about drugs, wuf? Should one be able to buy weed over the counter? What about cocaine? Heroine?
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  13. #6913
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    And not only that, but free market fundamentalists have since detailed extensively exactly how the system collapsed

    There, ftfy
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  14. #6914
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    And yet the fully free market system is without fault. Nothing can go wrong there, ergo a failure in that situation is surely impossible.
    That is not and has never been what I have stated. In fact, I have stated the opposite, that it is a faulty system and that failures happen in it. The difference is that I use facts and reason to analyze economics, markets, and government -- unlike how most people do it: with emotion.

    Tell for cognitive dissonance:

    When someone restates your persuasive and reasonable point as an absurd point in order to refute it
    http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1308234...ith-some-trump

    What do you think about drugs, wuf? Should one be able to buy weed over the counter? What about cocaine? Heroine?
    I wonder what you think I think.
  15. #6915
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    *This is a chief criticism of mainstream economists' political claims from a subset of economists (and others) who favor free markets. Both of my macro professors, both of whom are mainstream, claimed that the Great Depression was an example of failure of the free market; therefore regulation is needed. But they are wrong that the Great Depression happened in a system of free markets. It was the most intensely regulated market in American history up to that point. And not only that, but free market economists have since detailed extensively exactly how the system collapsed due to what regulators did (namely, the Fed). That view has since become consensus by the Fed since. At least it was until 2008, when the Fed made the same damn mistake, which resulted in crisis that sent many economists scrambling to rationalize in the same false way their erstwhile colleagues did regarding the Great Depression.
    Explain to me how the 2008 housing crisis could have been avoided if the US had a fully free market system instead, because I was under the impression that it happened, was led to happen and was allowed to happen precisely because there was no real regulation about what was going on there; noone knew what exactly was going on except the big banks devising their "financial instruments", which afterwards led to cries by the masses to actually start putting MORE regulations on the big banks to prevent this from happening ever again

    And whichever little regulation was passed, in turn Trump and Cohn swiftly banhammered it
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  16. #6916
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    There, ftfy
    Most of them were scientists doing scientific research.
  17. #6917
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Explain to me how the 2008 housing crisis could have been avoided if the US had a fully free market system instead,
    Because the balance sheet changes regarding subprime loans and then collateralizing them was created by government policy. The model was created and popularized by GSE's (government institutions), and they gave private banks both explicit and implicit guarantees of bailouts. Could a free market of financial institutions do this on their own? Sure. Anything is possible. But the scenario that actually happened was created by government. The ability for a free market to create it in a hypothetical is very tiny.

    Regarding the 08 financial crisis: this is a different event than the growth of subprime loans, and it has a different cause. This is the topic of my capstone project for my degree, so I'm still working through exactly what happened. It was a monetary policy failure. Basically the Fed deviated tremendously from its track by implementing new contractionary policy the entire year previous. This created slowdown in the economy and everybody reassessed their situation with the new expected nominal GDP decline. This is when the unusually colossal amount of collateralized debt became a problem, because it made stability in the financial system untenable with the coming of a recession. The Fed and the Treasury analyzed the problem and interpreted it as at root a banking crisis, so they instituted even more contractionary policy meant to help the banks. Then it went from bad to worse to utter catastrophe quickly. The Fed lost its credibility to maintain its policy goals and market expectations acted very erratically (think: things like inflation expectations spiking up and down big time over just a couple months). The Fed lost complete control over managing the nominal economy, and the system collapsed.

    As to why this happened, it's a source of great interest to me. I'll have a better handle on it after I do more work on it, but it appears to be a situation of unavoidable collapse when the Fed uses the faulty model of inflation targeting. The reason the Fed implemented contractionary policy for so long before any financial or economic problem began was because there was an oil shock. Inflation targeting monetary policy does not appear to have an answer to supply side shocks.

    The Great Recession is a different event with a different cause, but that too is primarily monetary (Fed). I'll spare you the details.

    And whichever little regulation was passed, in turn Trump and Cohn swiftly banhammered it
    Sadly, the government policies that put us in that situation are still on the books. Virtually nothing has changed except that the Fed has been slowly shifting its policy goal to something more tenable, though there is quite a long way to go.
  18. #6918
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    Ok ok

    More examples of the free market at it




    Do I have to assume this is all bullshit and yet again misrepresentations of how the free market handled it? In any case, we have the results on our hands right now
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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  19. #6919
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    Also



    Probably better for the randomness thread
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  20. #6920
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Ok ok

    More examples of the free market at it




    Do I have to assume this is all bullshit and yet again misrepresentations of how the free market handled it? In any case, we have the results on our hands right now
    The video does a pretty good job in its explanation of what happened. What it described is NOT free market. It described how private entities and government worked together. That is NOT free market. This is crony capitalism and in some cases corporatism or fascism. Free market advocacy is the furthest thing from crony capitalism and what the video describes.

    Free market advocates want the government prohibited from doing what Nixon did in creating Sallie Mae. We want the government to be prohibited from selling their institutions to private entities. We want the government to be prohibited from passing laws that benefit lobbyists. We want these things prohibited just like every American enjoys the prohibition of government to restrict speech, religion, etc..

    You and I are both against crony capitalism. Crony capitalism and free markets are opposites.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 08-26-2017 at 04:28 PM.
  21. #6921
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Probably better for the randomness thread
    Therefore we never prove anyone wrong?
  22. #6922
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Also



    Probably better for the randomness thread
    I wonder why they present it as "prove when they're wrong" when the effect is just when telling somebody they're wrong.


    It's a very tough phenomenon to deal with. Which is why when debating with somebody, most lower-than-normally-biased analyses probably come from some on the sidelines who don't have their identity at stake and aren't entrenching their views by engaging. Benefits to the debater might exist on delay, meaning that years later one might be confronted by a situation in which a point somebody he debated with makes the most sense to him as interpretation.
  23. #6923
    Crony capitalism is a more accurate descriptor than the one I previously used. Edited.
  24. #6924
    Sounds like Crooked is setting up to run again in 2020. Lmaomageddon
  25. #6925
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  26. #6926
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You and I are both against crony capitalism. Crony capitalism and free markets are opposites.
    Glad we are both against it. Now we have to reach an agreement as to what it is
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  27. #6927
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    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  28. #6928
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Glad we are both against it. Now we have to reach an agreement as to what it is
    Do you think it is something other than an economic system characterized by mutually advantageous relationships between business and government?
  29. #6929
    Kid Rock bringing a bazooka to a butter knife fight.

  30. #6930
    what is happening...
  31. #6931
    Winning Michigan may come easy. What I wonder is if his plan is to run for President in 2024 and do so without attending any debates. His years as Michigan senator could give him legitimacy in the eyes of those who want to see candidates at debates while not attending debates and instead campaigning in this new, fascinating way could be a nail in the coffin on the corrupt media/establishment's hold on politics.

    If the door is open to win without using any traditional media (which it might now be), that would probably be a good thing since the traditional media is structured in such a way that they pick the winners. The debates, as example, are mostly a way for the media and the parties to present what THEY want first and foremost.
  32. #6932
    Where is he speaking? Is it not really illegal to do any form of campaigning where you are also earning money such as at gigs?
  33. #6933
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Winning Michigan may come easy. What I wonder is if his plan is to run for President in 2024 and do so without attending any debates. His years as Michigan senator could give him legitimacy in the eyes of those who want to see candidates at debates while not attending debates and instead campaigning in this new, fascinating way could be a nail in the coffin on the corrupt media/establishment's hold on politics.

    If the door is open to win without using any traditional media (which it might now be), that would probably be a good thing since the traditional media is structured in such a way that they pick the winners. The debates, as example, are mostly a way for the media and the parties to present what THEY want first and foremost.
    are you just jumping on the back of thinking another trump like victory is now a certain (which it isn't obviously). I don't get why you're a fan or you would want him to win.

    Trump hasn't really done all that much that you can get behind either if you drop the 20 or so levels of thinking that you have to use to imply he has. Especially if you compare that to what other people you actually like may have been doing. Obviously if you compare it to Clinton it's easy to take positives.
  34. #6934
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    I don't get why you're a fan or you would want him to win.
    So far, it sounds like he is somebody who is not interested in screwing people over like politicians are doing (with few exceptions). It seems there is credibility to this idea given that he is not a politician who does politics for self-benefit and special interests appeasement.

    Trump hasn't really done all that much that you can get behind either if you drop the 20 or so levels of thinking that you have to use to imply he has.
    Really? I'm a big fan of a lot he has done.

    Especially if you compare that to what other people you actually like may have been doing.
    I doubt somebody like Cruz or Paul would have more success at stopping the GOPe from doing their best to sabotage the president. They may or may not do better than Trump regarding the things outside of that. Doing so would be extremely hard since Trump has done a ton.
  35. #6935
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Where is he speaking? Is it not really illegal to do any form of campaigning where you are also earning money such as at gigs?
    Good point. I really don't know. Could be he couldn't do this if he officially declares running for office. Or there could be a loophole.
  36. #6936
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    So far, it sounds like he is somebody who is not interested in screwing people over like politicians are doing (with few exceptions). It seems there is credibility to this idea given that he is not a politician who does politics for self-benefit and special interests appeasement.
    This isn't valid for you it's valid for idiots who don't pay attention. If you think that is enough to make a difference in the vote, fair, realise you don't come across the better for it even if that is your point. If you wanted to make that point clearer as some sort of prediction then you may come across as some sort of knowledge but the %s aren't on for that to be solid imo.
  37. #6937
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Really? I'm a big fan of a lot he has done.

    I doubt somebody like Cruz or Paul would have more success at stopping the GOPe from doing their best to sabotage the president. They may or may not do better than Trump regarding the things outside of that. Doing so would be extremely hard since Trump has done a ton.
    I know you think you are but it's only on levels that don't happen but we aren't going anywhere on this.

    I suppose it's hard to take the line that the GOP control everything but therefore Trump can do anything. Makes very little sense. If they could they'd have stopped Trump.
  38. #6938
    I believe that the average entrepreneur is VASTLY superior at knowing how to manage an economy than the average politician (and the average voter). This is because essentially what entrepreneurs do on a day to day basis is a microcosm of a robust economy. What many others do tends to be more detached or of distorted incentives, and it's easier for them to not spot a bad economics idea for what it is. The average entrepreneur may not understand how government restrictions are bad for people, but he KNOWS they are due to experience, so he is more prone to not do what has become standard practice among politicians and voters: hurting people because they believe the wrong things or don't know better.
  39. #6939
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    This isn't valid for you it's valid for idiots who don't pay attention. If you think that is enough to make a difference in the vote, fair, realise you don't come across the better for it even if that is your point. If you wanted to make that point clearer as some sort of prediction then you may come across as some sort of knowledge but the %s aren't on for that to be solid imo.
    Nobody has much of anything to go on regarding Kid Rock. I'm interested in him partly for the reason I laid out. It's a reason that should not be taken lightly.
  40. #6940
    There is actually a lot of evidence that shows the average successful entrepreneur tends to just get very lucky. Then we can get into how anecdotal evidence is literally the worst thing possible to support an argument. How policies that make you feel good aren't those that do good (i.e. what most people not clued up agree with). In fact you can find most people don't agree with regulation in their workplace as it prohibits them from making money no matter how but in general agree with it for everyone else because it doesn't impact them daily.

    It's just rubbish.
  41. #6941
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Nobody has much of anything to go on regarding Kid Rock. I'm interested in him partly for the reason I laid out. It's a reason that should not be taken lightly.
    So you'd be excited in the same way for anyone who had nothing to go off? Or just those with all the negative shit he has to go off.

    It's probably important to realise that for all the shit Trump has thrown at him (however real) isn't anything compared to someone like Rock.
  42. #6942
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    I know you think you are but it's only on levels that don't happen but we aren't going anywhere on this.
    Levels of what don't happen? I'm not referring to any of the 3d chess stuff.

    I suppose it's hard to take the line that the GOP control everything but therefore Trump can do anything. Makes very little sense. If they could they'd have stopped Trump.
    It doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be that they tried to stop him and failed regarding the presidency and are trying to stop him with some level of success regarding legislation.
  43. #6943
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    There is actually a lot of evidence that shows the average successful entrepreneur tends to just get very lucky. Then we can get into how anecdotal evidence is literally the worst thing possible to support an argument. How policies that make you feel good aren't those that do good (i.e. what most people not clued up agree with). In fact you can find most people don't agree with regulation in their workplace as it prohibits them from making money no matter how but in general agree with it for everyone else because it doesn't impact them daily.

    It's just rubbish.
    That people tend to want reduced restrictions for themselves but not others is a real problem. I'm referencing entrepreneurs because they tend to be different than laborers in this regard, at least as far as I can tell. Entrepreneurs getting lucky is not relevant to my point because gaining great success as an entrepreneur is not and doesn't create much of the ideas that go along with entrepreneurship.
  44. #6944
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Levels of what don't happen? I'm not referring to any of the 3d chess stuff.



    It doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be that they tried to stop him and failed regarding the presidency and are trying to stop him with some level of success regarding legislation.
    Yeah I as I said it's one of those you don't think you are but you are. He things this therefore she thinks that therefore etc etc. It's like old poker thinking. It works on level one & two but anything else is just crap.

    So the same would be true of any politician in the same situation? Trump is a complete lap dog why would he damage loads of the (by definition) most imporartant people in the world for his own political thoughts. Even if he can convince 10,000 average people for every one rich person that he's good that doesn't replace people on his golf course or his other projects that reuire the rich.
  45. #6945
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    So you'd be excited in the same way for anyone who had nothing to go off? Or just those with all the negative shit he has to go off.
    I'd trust the average plumber who has run his own business for 20 years to do a better job as President than the average politician. They are among the people who produce the most in an economy and they do so on merit, problem solving, and hard work. They are also the front line regarding taking the brunt of the negative force of government while also experiencing the positive force of restrained government. Politicians, academics, bureaucrats, even lots of different types of laborers, don't have this to the same degree.
  46. #6946
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Yes. I'd trust the average plumber who has run his own business for 20 years to do a better job as President than the average politician. They are among the people who produce the most in an economy and they do so on merit, problem solving, and hard work. They are also the front line regarding taking the brunt of the negative force of government while also experiencing the positive force of restrained government. Politicians, academics, bureaucrats, even lots of different types of laborers, don't have this to the same degree.
    This wasn't what I meant but it's also rubbish. Just at a very basic level the average good plumber isn't necessarily good at managing a plumbing company. They aren't even really the same skill set.
  47. #6947
    I'm referring to one who runs a company. There is often a big difference between those who run a company and those who work at the company.

    It's not a coincidence that people who run companies believe things that more align with good economics than people who don't.
  48. #6948
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I'm referring to one who runs a company. There is often a big difference between those who run a company and those who work at the company.

    It's not a coincidence that people who run companies believe things that more align with good economics than people who don't.
    The average plumber is self-employed so runs their own company.
  49. #6949
    It's very common.
  50. #6950
    Don't forget the average has-been rock star can make a good governor, as long as he has rallies with lots of fireworks and guitars.

    So if he can do it, I think a plumber is overqualified really.
  51. #6951
    Defo overqualified given the standards we're used to.
  52. #6952
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  53. #6953
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Do you think it is something other than an economic system characterized by mutually advantageous relationships between business and government?
    Of course I agree* on the definition, but let's see if we can keep agreeing when these happen with real world examples


    * = even though the advantages are in order of magnitude better for the corporations than for the politicians, so "mutually" is, while technically correct, a bit of a stretch
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  54. #6954
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    ITT i learned that Herman Cain would have been one hell of a great excellent tremendous amazing president
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  55. #6955
    He very well could've been if he hadn't tried to skip over the "parlay your over-the-top personality and the perception that you're a successful business man into a successful reality tv show" stepping stone, which we now know leads directly to the white house.
  56. #6956
    I came across one of my favorite metaphors in a long time: Trump supporters are the asshole of the body. Social justice, political correctness, restrictions on freedom, cultural Marxism, tax productivity and spend on rent seekers -- all rotten food shoveled down throats. The asshole says enough and spits it out hot and painfully.
  57. #6957
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ... cultural Marxism ...
    Is this true?


    Cultural Marxism generally refers to one of two things:
    1. First — extremely rarely — "Cultural Marxism" refers to the general application of the Frankfurt School's Marxist ideology to the social sciences.
    2. Second — in common usage in the wild — "Cultural Marxism" is a snarl word used to paint anyone with progressive tendencies as a secret Communist. The term alludes to a conspiracy theory in which sinister left-wingers have infiltrated media, academia, and science and are engaged in a decades-long plot to undermine Western culture. Some variants of the conspiracy alleges that basically all of modern social liberalism is, in fact, a Communist front group.
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  58. #6958
    It's a messy term. The definition you cited is not consensus, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus anyways. I should have said "identity politics" because that cuts to the heart of what people who say "cultural Marxism" don't like about their idea of "cultural Marxism".
  59. #6959
    That definition is a good example of how people can think they're talking about the same thing yet aren't. Most who think "cultural Marxism" don't think it's a conspiracy but an idea that permeates cultures. Some who don't use it labeled the idea as depending on conspiracy. Both are kinda right and kinda wrong.
  60. #6960
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  61. #6961
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  62. #6962
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    It's a messy term. The definition you cited is not consensus, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus anyways. I should have said "identity politics" because that cuts to the heart of what people who say "cultural Marxism" don't like about their idea of "cultural Marxism".

    You say that there doesn’t seem to be a consensus, yet you chose to use that term. So you choose to use terms that no one does, ergo you don’t either, know exactly what they mean? Because if there is no consensus on what something means, it means that no one actually knows what that means, right? In such a case, why would you choose to use that particular term at all?


    Doesn’t that add confusion to the rest of the points you are trying to bring across?


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    That definition is a good example of how people can think they're talking about the same thing yet aren't. Most who think "cultural Marxism" don't think it's a conspiracy but an idea that permeates cultures. Some who don't use it labeled the idea as depending on conspiracy. Both are kinda right and kinda wrong.

    I’d say the same, but then again, why use that word at all? Some sort of smearing? Buzzword? Why? I’m actually genuinely curious
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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  63. #6963
    I corrected to "identity politics". "Cultural Marxism" works for certain crowds and not for others. Here is probably the wrong crowd.
  64. #6964
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I corrected to "identity politics". "Cultural Marxism" works for certain crowds and not for others. Here is probably the wrong crowd.
    Yes, I know you have corrected yourself, and yet you chose to use it in the first place. I meant "why use it at all"



    So we can conclude the meaning depends on the crowd. Because as you said, there's no consensus on what it means, ergo no one knows /can agree on what it means or should actually refer to.

    Sounds like an eco-chambery smearword to me



    Sidenote: the urban dictionary page on this is actually hilarious. Can be headed by a poo flinging monkey gif imo

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...ural%20marxism
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  65. #6965
    Looks like Graham/Cassidy healthcare bill could have what it needs to pass.

    It is an improvement, but I'm not ecstatic. If the much more well functioning car insurance market is a 100 and the health insurance market is a 1, this bill would make health insurance market maybe a 25 or something. Much bigger changes are needed to make it such a robust market that people don't even think about it anymore, but it's not like those changes are politically feasible.
  66. #6966
    A silver lining may be that it appears the bill is structured in such a way that would make it very hard for states to not solve more problems than their politicians currently are.
  67. #6967
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Looks like Graham/Cassidy healthcare bill could have what it needs to pass.

    It is an improvement, but I'm not ecstatic. If the much more well functioning car insurance market is a 100 and the health insurance market is a 1, this bill would make health insurance market maybe a 25 or something. Much bigger changes are needed to make it such a robust market that people don't even think about it anymore, but it's not like those changes are politically feasible.

    Not according to Jimmy Kimmel
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    Cogito ergo sum

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  68. #6968
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    Do you like it when they pass bills in secret, wuf? When only two senators know the content of said bill?
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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  69. #6969
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Not according to Jimmy Kimmel

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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  70. #6970
    I am uninterested in what Kimmel, Seder, or Cassidy say about the bill or say about healthcare in general. I care about the facts and about the good economics and statistics reasoning that helps explain the facts. The points made by the three people I mentioned don't include much of that.

    Here's an example: the majority discourse includes the idea that the bills supported by Republicans will reduce the amount of people who receive healthcare. This is wrong. The idea comes from a narrow and inappropriate examination of one statistic that does not explain the whole. The questions you want to ask are "how" and "if that, then what else happens?" The Obamacare mandates have made it so that technically more people have health insurance than if the only thing that changed is eliminating the mandate and the only response is whether or not to buy health insurance. But those are not the whole story. The real story includes things like how a very large proportion of people who are covered under Obamacare insurance don't actually get any healthcare since Obamacare has made their deductibles so high, so the dichotomy that is commonly used in the media, that more coverage = more healthcare, is not necessarily true. Another thing the real story includes that media doesn't address is that much of the Obamacare coverage comes from people who would rather not pay for the coverage being forced to pay for the coverage. There are many, many other things along these lines, but I'll stop here.
  71. #6971
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I am uninterested in what Kimmel, Seder, or Cassidy say about the bill or say about healthcare in general. I care about the facts and about the good economics and statistics reasoning that helps explain the facts. The points made by the three people I mentioned don't include much of that.




    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Here's an example: the majority discourse includes the idea that the bills supported by Republicans will reduce the amount of people who receive healthcare. This is wrong. The idea comes from a narrow and inappropriate examination of one statistic that does not explain the whole. The questions you want to ask are "how" and "if that, then what else happens?" The Obamacare mandates have made it so that technically more people have health insurance than if the only thing that changed is eliminating the mandate and the only response is whether or not to buy health insurance.
    Yeah, I know and many/most people know that Obamacare sucks and that single payer is the way to go. Simple economics law: buy stuff in bulk, price has to go down or there is collusion and people should go to jail. Countless real-world examples of this in current practice all around the world prove it. But in the meantime, something is better than absolutely nothing.

    Like the "let's repeal Obamacare without anything real/substantial in place to repeal it with". That's like "Dove, darling, I will take your wings and not give you anything proper to replace them with. Now go and do your dove things Dove"

    But you have to repeal Obamacare first, because, duh, Obama


    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    But those are not the whole story. The real story includes things like how a very large proportion of people who are covered under Obamacare insurance don't actually get any healthcare since Obamacare has made their deductibles so high, so the dichotomy that is commonly used in the media, that more coverage = more healthcare, is not necessarily true. Another thing the real story includes that media doesn't address is that much of the Obamacare coverage comes from people who would rather not pay for the coverage being forced to pay for the coverage. There are many, many other things along these lines, but I'll stop here.
    And of course, you have the best non-media information sources where you came up with the whole story. So now, let's take away Obamacare, and fuckall. Insurance? Ha!


    LOL Lewis Black said it best: "America is the only place in the world where they managed to turn illness into a goldmine"
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  72. #6972
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  73. #6973
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    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  74. #6974
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post





    Yeah, I know and many/most people know that Obamacare sucks and that single payer is the way to go. Simple economics law: buy stuff in bulk, price has to go down or there is collusion and people should go to jail. Countless real-world examples of this in current practice all around the world prove it. But in the meantime, something is better than absolutely nothing.

    Like the "let's repeal Obamacare without anything real/substantial in place to repeal it with". That's like "Dove, darling, I will take your wings and not give you anything proper to replace them with. Now go and do your dove things Dove"

    But you have to repeal Obamacare first, because, duh, Obama




    And of course, you have the best non-media information sources where you came up with the whole story. So now, let's take away Obamacare, and fuckall. Insurance? Ha!


    LOL Lewis Black said it best: "America is the only place in the world where they managed to turn illness into a goldmine"
    Let me know when you want to have a productive discussion instead.
  75. #6975
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-for-seat.html

    Trump re-elected then Peyton in 2024??

    Seems like the GOP has its ducks in a row. Dems still pinning hopes on Pocahontas.

    Be prepared for another decade+ of whiny butt-hurt celebrity liberals crying about fascism.

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