Classified military video of cover up leaked

[wufwugy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

Dont watch if you don't wanna see murdered civilians

[surviva316]

i don't know nearly enough about military operations and the standards for soldiers in assessing potential weaponry as risks for me to comment on this vid. would be kinda scary to be sitting in the seat of that helicopter thinking that there might be an RPG pointed at ya.

obv if anyone who knows anything about this type of thing steps in and points out that you should be able to tell the difference between a camera case and an rpg, then i'd become more than willing to condemn these soldiers as terrible people.

[a500lbgorilla]

i don't know nearly enough about military operations and the standards for soldiers in assessing potential weaponry as risks for me to comment on this vid. would be kinda scary to be sitting in the seat of that helicopter thinking that there might be an RPG pointed at ya.

obv if anyone who knows anything about this type of thing steps in and points out that you should be able to tell the difference between a camera case and an rpg, then i'd become more than willing to condemn these soldiers as terrible people.

That's what I thought too. I was watching it thinking "Are those guns? I can't tell ...'RPG!' oh shit, they've got an RPG." Now I'm thinking how easy it is for someone to think they saw, in an innocuous object, a deadly RPG. Once you telegraphic what you think you saw, it becomes combat reality.

Then they shot that car and I was thinking, "Terrorists trying to evac the wounded? Or a driver by trying to help save a life?"

In the second engagement where there clearly was a man with an AK walk into that building apparently abandoned-under construction, they fired that first missile and some dude was just walking down the street and WHAM, evaporated. And then, after the bulding exploded, they say they're lining up a second shot as people are slowly moving towards the rubble; you don't see it but I can only imagine the second shot took out 3 more people minimum.

The best part is the subtitles when they hear 1 or 2 kids had been wounded.
"It's their fault. Shouldn't bring your kids to battle." Though it seems to me, you guys are just going to bring the battle where ever.

[givememyleg]

It's just a game to them... they're pointing a cross-hair at targets and scoring points... and laughing about it. War brings justified and legal murder... fucking horrible.

[Sup3rM4N]

WOW....speechless.

[Stacks]

Hell of a FPS.

But seriously, when I watched it the first time and I saw the guy squat beside the building, my first thought was "oh shit RPG". And I saw what looked like to be a few weapons down there also. I'll say they all looked pretty relaxed though (with the exception of the guy with the supposed RPG), but the guys did say they were taking small arms fire. So really not sure if this was a breach of Rules of Engagement or not.

Either way, I don't really like seeing vids like this. Pretty sick to think how quickly their lives were ended without being certain they were hostile or intended to be hostile.

[a500lbgorilla]

Hell of a FPS.

But seriously, when I watched it the first time and I saw the guy squat beside the building, my first thought was "oh shit RPG". And I saw what looked like to be a few weapons down there also. I'll say they all looked pretty relaxed though (with the exception of the guy with the supposed RPG), but the guys did say they were taking small arms fire. So really not sure if this was a breach of Rules of Engagement or not.

Either way, I don't really like seeing vids like this. Pretty sick to think how quickly their lives were ended without being certain they were hostile or intended to be hostile.

You were probably right.



Imageshack - 1270493174790.gif <--- oh i'm a link and you will click me.

[wufwugy]

Blaming military or individuals is a red herring. The correct militaristic objective involves self-preservation and threat annihilation. The problem is war itself, and how that creates a system of unavoidable civilian casualties.

Actually, that's a red herring too. The real problem is not educating the public on what actions of ours encourage war and the atrocities it creates, or something like that

[Ragnar4]

Blaming military or individuals is a red herring. The correct militaristic objective involves self-preservation and threat annihilation. The problem is war itself, and how that creates a system of unavoidable civilian casualties.

Actually, that's a red herring too. The real problem is not educating the public on what actions of ours encourage war and the atrocities it creates, or something like that

Educating our own military about what it takes to win a war would have helped here too.

Kill, burn, maim and destroy everything you find until your opponent throws his hands up and says "WE GIVE UP". You can't take a military objective and declare a win.

You have to take those military objectives, and continue to fight until you, and this is the important part, beat the fight out of your opponent.

[wufwugy]

Educating our own military about what it takes to win a war would have helped here too.

Kill, burn, maim and destroy everything you find until your opponent throws his hands up and says "WE GIVE UP". You can't take a military objective and declare a win.

You have to take those military objectives, and continue to fight until you, and this is the important part, beat the fight out of your opponent.

Well, yes, but it's not the military that is causing problems. They're actually extremely good at doing their jobs, it's just that the jobs they're given by the politicians and populace are ones that create the system in which this type of thing happens.

The video doesn't present the military doing anything wrong, actually. They are combat personnel adhering to strict combat orders, and really should not be expected otherwise. The problem is in the retarded populace supporting the retarded politicians who think that we're at war and we need combat intervention. When the only vehicle you own is a tank, everything looks like an RPG; this isn't far from US foreign policy since WWII actually, and it really is what Eisenhower said about the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex.

Expect US fighting in 'wars' to never go away. Politicians using militaristic force to bully, proxy war, and occupy is integral to the US remaining as economic top dog. We've also let ourselves be fooled into the game. We think there is actually a 'win' or an 'end'. There is no win, and it will not stop. None of this shit was legit in the first place, and the political administration knew it. It's about money for those in charge, as always, and collateral damage is often a boon for that goal. The problem is not in the military doing their job, but in those who give them that job

I guess my point is that we've straw manned the entire thing. War, I mean. We're not really at war, we're at pocket-lining and ideology pleasing. And the way they do those two things is by making it appear that the underlying issue is war-like conflict. It's the same reason that people are starving and imprisoned en masse. We sucker into the propaganda and remain oblivious to the real reasons why those things are the problems they are. I guess this is getting a little off topic, but it's where I will naturally take discourse that points the finger at superficial protocol

[Stacks]

Well, yes, but it's not the military that is causing problems. They're actually extremely good at doing their jobs, it's just that the jobs they're given by the politicians and populace are ones that create the system in which this type of thing happens.

The video doesn't present the military doing anything wrong, actually. They are combat personnel adhering to strict combat orders, and really should not be expected otherwise. The problem is in the retarded populace supporting the retarded politicians who think that we're at war and we need combat intervention. When the only vehicle you own is a tank, everything looks like an RPG; this isn't far from US foreign policy since WWII actually, and it really is what Eisenhower said about the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex.

Expect US fighting in 'wars' to never go away. Politicians using militaristic force to bully, proxy war, and occupy is integral to the US remaining as economic top dog. We've also let ourselves be fooled into the game. We think there is actually a 'win' or an 'end'. There is no win, and it will not stop. None of this shit was legit in the first place, and the political administration knew it. It's about money for those in charge, as always, and collateral damage is often a boon for that goal. The problem is not in the military doing their job, but in those who give them that job

I guess my point is that we've straw manned the entire thing. War, I mean. We're not really at war, we're at pocket-lining and ideology pleasing. And the way they do those two things is by making it appear that the underlying issue is war-like conflict. It's the same reason that people are starving and imprisoned en masse. We sucker into the propaganda and remain oblivious to the real reasons why those things are the problems they are. I guess this is getting a little off topic, but it's where I will naturally take discourse that points the finger and superficial protocol

Very well said.

[Ragnar4]

Well, yes, but it's not the military that is causing problems. They're actually extremely good at doing their jobs, it's just that the jobs they're given by the politicians and populace are ones that create the system in which this type of thing happens.

The video doesn't present the military doing anything wrong, actually. They are combat personnel adhering to strict combat orders, and really should not be expected otherwise. The problem is in the retarded populace supporting the retarded politicians who think that we're at war and we need combat intervention. When the only vehicle you own is a tank, everything looks like an RPG; this isn't far from US foreign policy since WWII actually, and it really is what Eisenhower said about the Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex.

Expect US fighting in 'wars' to never go away. Politicians using militaristic force to bully, proxy war, and occupy is integral to the US remaining as economic top dog. We've also let ourselves be fooled into the game. We think there is actually a 'win' or an 'end'. There is no win, and it will not stop. None of this shit was legit in the first place, and the political administration knew it. It's about money for those in charge, as always, and collateral damage is often a boon for that goal. The problem is not in the military doing their job, but in those who give them that job

I guess my point is that we've straw manned the entire thing. War, I mean. We're not really at war, we're at pocket-lining and ideology pleasing. And the way they do those two things is by making it appear that the underlying issue is war-like conflict. It's the same reason that people are starving and imprisoned en masse. We sucker into the propaganda and remain oblivious to the real reasons why those things are the problems they are. I guess this is getting a little off topic, but it's where I will naturally take discourse that points the finger at superficial protocol

“To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men”
Abe Lincoln

If this is what you honestly think of this "unwar", and you're not shitting on the White House lawn in order to get noticed and get your protest into the airwaves, I've got some pretty bad news for you man.

[boost]

“To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men”
Abe Lincoln

If this is what you honestly think of this "unwar", and you're not shitting on the White House lawn in order to get noticed and get your protest into the airwaves, I've got some pretty bad news for you man.

wat

[BankItDrew]

wat

nothin will change if no one protests

[XTR1000]

All opinions on war, politics and armed forces aside, the fact that a video like this found its way into the public and people being able to discuss it without having to fear any repression is a sign of hope and means it could all be much much worse.

[boost]

nothin will change if no one protests

tycaptainobvious


Now seeing as I obviously was not on the 0th level.. lets look at the definition of protest.

pro·test

   /n. ˈproʊtɛst; v. prəˈtɛst, ˈproʊtɛst/ Show Spelled[n. proh-test; v. pruh-test, proh-test] Show IPA
–noun1.an expression or declaration of objection, disapproval, or dissent, often in opposition to something a person is powerless to prevent or avoid: a protest against increased taxation.

Is this not what wuf is doing in this very thread? Is Ranger suggesting that wuf literally go shit on the white house lawn in protest? If not, my "wat" stands.

[Belt]

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once".

"Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

Albert Einstein

I can't agree more...

[Ragnar4]

Yes, if Wuf honestly believes that this is an UnWar in which the US Government is A) Wagging the Dog and B) Murdering human beings in order to keep US at the top of the heap and C)Oil Prices at an all time high even after an adjustment for inflation.

He sure has hell had better be doing something more than telling a bunch of non-compassionate poker players whats up... furthermore if dropping Trou and defecating on the whitehouse lawn is the best way to get his point across, then yes, I'm advocating he shits on the whitehouse lawn.

[Warpe]

All opinions on war, politics and armed forces aside, the fact that a video like this found its way into the public and people being able to discuss it without having to fear any repression is a sign of hope and means it could all be much much worse.

Wikileaks isn't liked very much by the US military:

Wikileaks reveals video showing US air crew shooting down Iraqi civilians | World news | The Guardian

[boost]

Yes, if Wuf honestly believes that this is an UnWar in which the US Government is A) Wagging the Dog and B) Murdering human beings in order to keep US at the top of the heap and C)Oil Prices at an all time high even after an adjustment for inflation.

He sure has hell had better be doing something more than telling a bunch of non-compassionate poker players whats up... furthermore if dropping Trou and defecating on the whitehouse lawn is the best way to get his point across, then yes, I'm advocating he shits on the whitehouse lawn.

you prove time and again that you are a fucking idiot.

[a500lbgorilla]

you prove time and again that you are a fucking idiot.

I'm gonna shit on your lawn!

[Ragnar4]

you prove time and again that you are a fucking idiot.

Which is the part where I prove I'm an idiot?

The part where I openly disagree to his wag-the-dog argument?

or

The part where I suggest that if he's willing to let other innocent people die in vain without speaking up about it, that he's not exactly making a responsible choice as a human?

or

Am I just an idiot because I disagree with you?

[Warpe]

[boost]

Which is the part where I prove I'm an idiot?

The part where I openly disagree to his wag-the-dog argument?

or

The part where I suggest that if he's willing to let other innocent people die in vain without speaking up about it, that he's not exactly making a responsible choice as a human?

or

Am I just an idiot because I disagree with you?

No, youre an idiot because your argument amounts to "well if you like it so much, why dont you marry it?!"

Protest does not require everyone in opposition to drop everything in their lives and sacrifice their well being for the sake of the cause. Not only that, but people are capable of holding conflicting beliefs, or conflicting values. These conflicting values and beliefs can rightfully cause someone to compromise and take the path of moderate action to further their cause.

Your argument is based on the "either or" fallacy. Its the same fallacy that was used at the start of the Iraqi war, "either youre a patriot who supports the war, or you support terrorism."

[Ragnar4]

I would think my argument amounts to: To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men”

How did you miss the primary filter?

Your definition of the word protest can also be found under the definition of the word Complain, seriuosly, you think whining about the loss of human lives in a poker forum is going to change anything? The charge being leveraged is serious, and horrible, and if it's honestly believed, not acting on it is pretty repugnant.

I think there's a legitimate reason we're over there, the death of the reporters is horrible, but I doubt there's any person in the world, qualified to make the decision, would decide that the first shots fired weren't justified. I didn't know what I think about lighting up the vehicle when the primary threat had been neutralized, but I'm not capable of determining that.

I do realize that my last reply was an either or logical fallacy you can pretend I didn't post it of you'd like, but it doesn't invalidate my previous argument at all.

I'm not certain what the actual standard of belief across the nation happens to be about the US Governments involvement in the war, but this is one hell of an accusation. I'm just saying I don't like the fact that he's come to that conclusion and isn't doing more about it.

Also, I'd like to see someone shit on the whitehouse lawn.

[oskar]

Kind of makes you want blow up some government buildings AMIRITE!


Oh and Regnar, r u fkn srz? There's an Apache helicopter hovering above their heads and they just keep strolling along. Why would you assume that they are about to attack.

[Rheanna]

I can't watch any more of that.

At first, it seemed like a simple misunderstanding cameras as weapons. Especially when he looked around the corner. Did look like he was pointing a weapon at them. Which is understandable in war time but that one guy shooting seemed to be a little enjoying what he was doing too much and I agree that was murder. 2nd time around he should of know that neither had weapons when they were picking up the wounded. Why they were there in the first place is beyond me. I would think that foot soldiers would be the ones carrying out a sweep, unless they were called in first. I don't know it's a time where they have survival instinct. Be killed or Be the killer and this case they were the killers. I don't think it's right or fair but it's acceptable in war time.

RIP

[Ragnar4]

Oh and Regnar, r u fkn srz? There's an Apache helicopter hovering above their heads and they just keep strolling along. Why would you assume that they are about to attack.

There are some pretty infamous stories coming from Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Kuwait and several others, in which our own troops stroll right by a group of farmers, or kids, or business men doing their own, non-chalant thing ignoring the troops, and then as soon as they get out of sight, they pull their weapons out, and attack our boys from the rear.

Korean and Vietnam troops used to dress like Farmers and pull that shit all the time.

I don't know how you could tell that what they were carrying wasnt weapons (perhaps I need a monitor with better resolution?), but the point at which the dude was ducking down by the building with the camera, It is compeletly believeable that it may have been an RPG. At no point would the helicopter have opened fire unless they felt their lives were in imminent danger.

What kind of idiot points anything at a helicopter capable of killing you from 2.5 miles away, while in a warzone???

[oskar]

Point taken, but that still doesn't explain why they would shoot the people who try to rescue the wounded.

[Stacks]

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't there a point in the video where some of the group troops state that there is an individual with an RPG underneath him? And it didn't seem like the ground troops where all that far away, as it didn't take them too long to get there to investigate the scene. I don't like the fact that civilians died either, but if the situation was such that you are in a helicopter, you know you have friendly troops nearby, and then you see a large group of individuals carrying what appears to be weapons (look at Rilla's gif) heading in the direction of those troops, then it stands to reason some course of action needs to be taken.

[Ragnar4]

Point taken, but that still doesn't explain why they would shoot the people who try to rescue the wounded.

Yeah I'm not really on board with that either. I'd imagine that the rules of engagement suggest that anyone trying to collect the wounded also constitutes an enemy.

I'm also pretty disgusted by the fact that they are bragging about what's happening to eachother in the heli... But you've got to understand, these people are doing what they signed up to do, kill other people, somethings wrong with them in the first place.

[Jack Sawyer]

this is beyond fucked up.

[CoccoBill]

Of course it's fucked up, it's war. The only thing surprising and disgusting about this whole issue is the attempted cover-up and denial that this isn't business as usual when it comes to combat. People nowadays seem to have the impression that war is all about laser precision strikes, swift and painless neutralizing of the enemy with no civilian casualties. Maybe if people saw it for what it is it would become less popular. Why do nearly 10% of the vets come back with PTSD I wonder, from watching traumatic youtube clips on guard duty?

[b-rabbit]

of course it was an attempted cover-up. consider the alternative.

[Wemmoornenarm]

Just learned that Obama might Limit Potential Uses of Nuclear Weaponry at Fox News

So what do everyone think of this?

[kiwiMark]

No more using nukes at fox news? Fucking socialists, man.

[boost]

You still are arguing either or.

And I feel like youre suggesting that the military industrial complex either A) doesnt exist or B) has no motives/power to incite armed conflict.

What fantasy world do you live in?

[wufwugy]

Man I have typed up like three different large ass posts on this topic, but cant submit because I just dont have the stomach for debate anymore

What I would like to say though is that the root of my point involves the human biological and sociological necessity for systemic atrocities. Whether or not that is true is debatable, but only hypothetically given that just about all evidence in history shows that the post-agricultural/large population human paradigm naturally gravitates towards hierarchies with few fortunate individuals on the top, a shitload of damned people on the bottom, and the system perpetuating itself.

This is what I meant by 'unwar' or whatever. Can anybody even find me evidence that global civilization is even capable of not mass producing atrocities without end? For all our 'greatness' and 'progression', it certainly looks like there are more suffering today than pretty much ever before.

For just one example, do this: analyze the concept and reality of 'competition', and then tell me how it is possible for a biological organism and a social structure that is driven by competition to not royally fuck some populations systemically. Both theoretically and empirically, reality shows us that things like war are pretty much unavoidable, innate aspects of our very being

[Galapogos]

Man I have typed up like three different large ass posts on this topic, but cant submit because I just dont have the stomach for debate anymore

Lies itt

[Deepthink]

this is so sick. they probably did it on propuse

[Stacks]

Did what on purpose? Kill them? Because they obviously did, and they did a pretty effective job as well.

[a500lbgorilla]

I bet you posted that on purpose.

[a500lbgorilla]

WikiLeaks Follow Up: A Guy From the Unit Reports | David Bellavia

A response from someone in the unit featured on the videos.

April 7 at 3:28am
David,
Thought I’d drop you a line and share a few things about that Apache vid.

That was and is my unit. We are in the process of returning from Iraq right now from our next tour after the 2007 one.

What you don’t see was the video before the engagement when the AWT arrived on station. They saw soldiers on a roof that were under fire from the direction of the eventual engagement area. Then they see the guy prairie dogging around the corner of the building.

Regarding the language, our pilots get beat up every day by the chain of command for cursing or other cavalier things they might say on their tapes. For the exact reason of what’s happening now.

All these whining assholes can suck it. They don’t have half of what it takes to go out there every day and do what these guys do.

[a500lbgorilla]

Video shows US friendly fire attack on British tank

Video of a 'blue on blue' situation.

[wufwugy]

t r u t h o u t | Iraq War Vet: "We Were Told to Just Shoot People, and the Officers Would Take Care of Us"

"I remember one woman walking by," said Jason Washburn, a corporal in the US Marines who served three tours in Iraq. He told the audience at the Winter Soldier hearings that took place March 13-16, 2008, in Silver Spring, Maryland, "She was carrying a huge bag, and she looked like she was heading toward us, so we lit her up with the Mark 19, which is an automatic grenade launcher, and when the dust settled, we realized that the bag was full of groceries. She had been trying to bring us food and we blew her to pieces."

[BankItDrew]

t r u t h o u t | Iraq War Vet: "We Were Told to Just Shoot People, and the Officers Would Take Care of Us"

Way to carry a big bag in Iraq towards the opposition. Nice thinking.

[a500lbgorilla]

Moral of the story: don't get caught in a war.