Christianity could be a higher order way of organizing lives

[wufwugy]

So, here's an idea.

People are naturally selfish, naturally proud, naturally good at making enemies, at escalating conflict, at hurting others unjustly. I grew up in a very well put together Christian family and I made very well put together Christian friends (who are still my super close friends today). I was naive about a lot of what others have to deal with. That has been changing since over time my family has been deviating from the Christian ethos. Members have been becoming less Christian in practice, in thought, and have married into not so well put together families. This has brought in problems to my family that we did not have before, and I've been watching it play out. My family, like many families these days, has been slowing crawling towards and existential crisis with manifestations snowballing of recent.

Anyways, I've been trying to figure out solutions, and the only thing I've been able to come up with is an adoption of the Christian ethos. Each person in my family related to these problems is causing some of the problems because of their pride and because they do not want to make sacrifices. Essentially they are making the exact mistakes that the Christian ethos attempts to solve. I've been mostly staying out of it, but it may be coming to a point where I might have to bring the Bible down on some heads. The one thing my family still humbles themselves to is the Bible, even if some are at each others' throats otherwise. Somebody has to get humble and somebody has to sacrifice themselves for the transgressions others have made. That's what Jesus did and that's the only way I can see that this won't tear the family apart. The need for humility and sacrifice includes me. Though I'm not a part of it, there are things I could have done that would have avoided the problems altogether. And I need to accept that instead of pointing the finger.


Anyways, that wasn't the reason I wanted to make this post. The reason is that I think that this is an idea worth considering: in a world where people are naturally selfish and naturally proud and naturally harm unjustly, in a world where families and friends and communities dissolve because of the natural tendency for people to blame others for their problems, in that world, it may be the case that a code to live by, an ideal held above humanly nature with ritual and practice, an ideal to which somebody can appeal in order to overcome their own pride before it's too late, that might be a higher order way of organizing lives. Some people scoff at religion, call it savage. I say those people are confused. Humans are savage already. Religion might be an important taming mechanism and might aid construction of fitness for survival.

Also I find it fucking hilarious that as the only atheist in my family, I'm the one saying the Christian ethos might be what the family needs most right now.



Thoughts on this idea?

[Poopadoop]

My first thought is that religion can be an organising force for either good or evil, depending on how one wants to use it. Partly I see religion as people projecting their own ideals onto a supernatural being in order to lend them more gravitas. Whereas a lot of people don't care what Jesus of Buddha or whoever would do (at least not in anything other than the abstract), it seems your family does.

So if that's what it takes to get your relatives in line and acting decent again then it might be worth considering, sure.

[spoonitnow]

More or less the entire core of Christianity comes down to what happens when you try hard (ie: sacrifice) but don't get what you think you deserve. This is the core of everything from Cain/Abel/Seth to Satan tempting Jesus in the garden.

Also I find it fucking hilarious that as the only atheist in my family, I'm the one saying the Christian ethos might be what the family needs most right now.

As best I can see it, there are three levels of how someone relates to religion:

1. People who accept it literally.
2. People who deny it because they take it literally.
3. People who get it.

You're describing the third level here.

Edit: I'm an agnostic atheist for anyone who might ask.

[BananaStand]

Christianity wins for best religion.

How do i know??

Spoiler: Show

what year is it?

[OngBonga]

It's still based on outright lies and its entire purpose is control by means of fear, but I suppose it's the least bad of the big ones, and it certainly does have its benefits in that it provides moral structure in people's lives. A fucking lot of people seem to need it, so I don't have a problem with living alongside it. That said, it's batshit and I think people who really believe in it are daft. God? Maybe, whatever. Adam and Eve? Yeah shut up.

[Poopadoop]

It's still based on outright lies and its entire purpose is control by means of fear, but I suppose it's the least bad of the big ones, and it certainly does have its benefits in that it provides moral structure in people's lives. A fucking lot of people seem to need it, so I don't have a problem with living alongside it. That said, it's batshit and I think people who really believe in it are daft. God? Maybe, whatever. Adam and Eve? Yeah shut up.

if you take the Bible as parable you don't have to believe in Adam's rib turning into Noah's Ark or whatever the fucking story is. I don't have a problem with Bible-as-parable because the only thing it asserts for certain afaik is that God exists. And I can't dispute that one way or the other. The problem I have is with people believing the Bible as literal truth; they are the true fucking idiots imo.

[spoonitnow]

It's still based on outright lies and its entire purpose is control by means of fear, but I suppose it's the least bad of the big ones, and it certainly does have its benefits in that it provides moral structure in people's lives. A fucking lot of people seem to need it, so I don't have a problem with living alongside it. That said, it's batshit and I think people who really believe in it are daft. God? Maybe, whatever. Adam and Eve? Yeah shut up.

Stage 2 in action, and rightfully so.

[wufwugy]

It's still based on outright lies and its entire purpose is control by means of fear, but I suppose it's the least bad of the big ones, and it certainly does have its benefits in that it provides moral structure in people's lives. A fucking lot of people seem to need it, so I don't have a problem with living alongside it. That said, it's batshit and I think people who really believe in it are daft. God? Maybe, whatever. Adam and Eve? Yeah shut up.

Building on what Mademoiselle Poopadoop said,

It seems to be that most religion hasn't been believed literally. That stuff appears to be a recent innovation that probably evolved due to its effectiveness at eliciting conformity to the religion.

The roots of Christianity were not taken literally. It's the Protestants that took literalism and ran with it.

[wufwugy]

It's probably that our love for literary drama comes from the same place that religious stories did. It's also probably we have lost nearly all of the substance literature once had. Today we watch heroes, superheroes, meta-heroes, and even gods crack jokes and swing hammers on a big screen. We used to instead listen to or read about lessons that make for survival fitness by the same kind of heroes.

[OngBonga]

Well if we're not taking it literally, then all religions are pretty much the same, right? Just different ways of telling the same story, only from a different culture's pov.

[wufwugy]

Well if we're not taking it literally, then all religions are pretty much the same, right? Just different ways of telling the same story, only from a different culture's pov.

They'd be different in a large way based on the themes and archetypes and morals they emphasize.

[oskar]

At best it can't hurt.
Why does it specifically have to be christian ethos? It seems like what you're looking for is a very small part that's only loosely related to christianity, so why are you bringing religion into the picture? This problem seems to be entirely unrelated to a higher power - as most things usually are... so why try to bring one into this?

Let's say my cousins were to get chubby. I wouldn't immediately go to: we have a rich history of national socialism in this family, maybe we should remind them of the healthy aryan body image. Why not leave the nazi part and just tell them to go skip a rope.

[Poopadoop]

It's probably that our love for literary drama comes from the same place that religious stories did. It's also probably we have lost nearly all of the substance literature once had. Today we watch heroes, superheroes, meta-heroes, and even gods crack jokes and swing hammers on a big screen. We used to instead listen to or read about lessons that make for survival fitness by the same kind of heroes.

I think as a rule we have basically a limited number of stories to tell as humans, and we just dress them up in different ways. The archetypes and themes are always the same half-dozen or so that we learned in high school (man vs. man, man vs. nature, boy meets girl, etc.). I think the reason the stories seem less powerful as you get older is that it eventually dawns on you that you're hearing the same basic story for the umpteenth time. I don't think it makes any difference if you hear it on the radio, around a campfire, or see it on TV.

[Poopadoop]

At best it can't hurt.
Why does it specifically have to be christian ethos? It seems like what you're looking for is a very small part that's only loosely related to christianity, so why are you bringing religion into the picture? This problem seems to be entirely unrelated to a higher power - as most things usually are... so why try to bring one into this?

I thought the idea from Wuf's OP was that his family respected the Bible and so if went up and quoted John 7:12 or whatever they might be moved, but if he just walked up and said 'hey cut it out' it wouldn't have the same force behind it.

[Poopadoop]

Let's say my cousins were to get chubby. I wouldn't immediately go to: we have a rich history of national socialism in this family, maybe we should remind them of the healthy aryan body image. Why not leave the nazi part and just tell them to go skip a rope.

I'd actually be much more interested in seeing how well the former worked.

Also, if your cousin got in an argument with a jew, well... you'd know what say to them right?

[wufwugy]

At best it can't hurt.
Why does it specifically have to be christian ethos? It seems like what you're looking for is a very small part that's only loosely related to christianity

Self-sacrifice in the face of others hurting you is the core of Christianity. That's it's central message, without which the whole thing falls apart. The Bible tells this story through metaphor. The culmination is when Jesus took on the sins of the world and sacrificed himself to save the sinners. That is essentially the same problem my family is facing right now, in my estimation. Some people are mad at others because they feel they have been sinned against. That feeling is causing real problems that could tear the family apart. Christianity solves for this problem when it shows Jesus calling others' sins his own sins and sacrificing himself. The sort of way this idea is meant to manifest in normal human lives is like when you're angry at others sinning against you, if you have any intention to save the relationship, in order to do so you need to get humble.

This problem seems to be entirely unrelated to a higher power - as most things usually are... so why try to bring one into this?

Yeah, it's not related to a higher power per se. It's a human problem through and through. My idea is that an adherence to a higher moral framework is what people can use to solve a problem that the natural function of humans doesn't solve for. What I'm getting at here is how being proud and blaming others is the most natural thing for people to do in this sort of situation, especially once they've started fighting. It might take adherence to a moral framework that can override that natural tendency.

Let's say my cousins were to get chubby. I wouldn't immediately go to: we have a rich history of national socialism in this family, maybe we should remind them of the healthy aryan body image. Why not leave the nazi part and just tell them to go skip a rope.

I lol'd.

How many fucking overweight people there are now? How effective have things like knowledge about diet and exercise been at combating it. Maybe a higher order moral framework could more effectively make a more positive impact.

[Poopadoop]

How many fucking overweight people there are now? How effective have things like knowledge about diet and exercise been at combating it. Maybe a higher order moral framework could more effectively make a more positive impact.

Or just make them watch Leni Reifenstahl (sp?) Nazi movies about all these superfit Aryans spinning hoola hoops and shit. That would make me want to get off my ass.

[wufwugy]

I thought the idea from Wuf's OP was that his family respected the Bible and so if went up and quoted John 7:12 or whatever they might be moved, but if he just walked up and said 'hey cut it out' it wouldn't have the same force behind it.

Yes that's it.

And I'm getting at this type of thing probably isn't uncommon. Religious type adherence to higher moral frameworks might be more effective at producing positive effects than, say, being left to your own devices.

I like what Jordan Peterson has said about it: "how do you think you're gonna make your own morals when you can't even clean your own room." It is my estimation that my family is making a mess of some shit in ways that occurs naturally because they have been leaving the Christian ethos.

[oskar]

There are some extreme cases where I think this is an ok method. This doesn't sound like it would qualify as one of those. I think a solid moral framework necessarily has to be based in logic. If you base your moral system on doctrine that opens up a whole pandoras box of nonsense.

[BananaStand]

I'd say if your family is off the rails, religion isn't going to help them.

It's been mentioned here that there is a difference between people who interpret the scripture literally, and people who see metaphors meant to be used as guidance. Yes, there are people in both categories, but I think there are a HELL of a lot more in the former category, and it's really hard to remain pious if you're in the latter category.

As far as I know, every significant sect of Christianity believes that there was a woman who was married and living with a man some 2000 years ago, in the middle east, and somehow managed to stay a virgin. Then, one night, a bearded guy on a cloud sent an angel to this woman in a dream and when she woke up she was pregnant with a human being.

Then, some 35 years later, that human being got nailed to some wood left standing 10 feet high in the desert sun for a long fucking time. then his dead and lifeless body was sealed in a cave. then three days later, he just woke up, walked out, and flew into the sky where he lives forever with his dad, the bearded guy on the cloud.

they ALL believe that's fact. Once you're there, it's really not hard to believe water turned into wine, or that the red sea parted, or that a 500 year old man built a 1,000 foot wooden boat by himself.

I can't imagine ANYONE becoming cynical about that, and then subsequently reversing their position. I'm sure it's happened a handful of times, born-agains and what not, but c'mon wuf. If you're family left that behind, they are never going back. Even if they say they still believe, they don't. It's just for appearances. If they were really that faithful, they wouldn't be off the rails in the first place.

I'm not sure how this compares, but my family identifies as catholic. I was confirmed by a priest when i was 17. I can tell you I believe none of it. My parents just put that stuff on me because that's what their parents did for them, and that's what they assumed they were supposed to do. I don't think my parents are real believers, but they'd never admit it because they would feel as though they are betraying their family traditions.

Me, I just don't have the remorse. I went through the motions when I was a teen, but as an adult I'm not shy about my cynicism. My mom's eyes almost exploded out of her head when I told her I wasn't getting my first daughter baptized. But, she got over it. Two daughters and zero baptisms later nothing bad has happened.

I guess my point is that it sounds like your family is just going through the motions on the religion, and have been merely as a tribute to the traditions of prior generations, and not because of any faith or appreciation for God. And if that's the case, bringing out the bible is going to have the opposite effect you're seeking.

[oskar]

Most modern day christian's would say those stories are meant to be read as metaphor.
I'd contend that even as metaphor, they're still garbled nonsense.

[wufwugy]

I'd say if your family is off the rails, religion isn't going to help them.

It's been mentioned here that there is a difference between people who interpret the scripture literally, and people who see metaphors meant to be used as guidance. Yes, there are people in both categories, but I think there are a HELL of a lot more in the former category, and it's really hard to remain pious if you're in the latter category.

As far as I know, every significant sect of Christianity believes that there was a woman who was married and living with a man some 2000 years ago, in the middle east, and somehow managed to stay a virgin. Then, one night, a bearded guy on a cloud sent an angel to this woman in a dream and when she woke up she was pregnant with a human being.

Then, some 35 years later, that human being got nailed to some wood left standing 10 feet high in the desert sun for a long fucking time. then his dead and lifeless body was sealed in a cave. then three days later, he just woke up, walked out, and flew into the sky where he lives forever with his dad, the bearded guy on the cloud.

they ALL believe that's fact. Once you're there, it's really not hard to believe water turned into wine, or that the red sea parted, or that a 500 year old man built a 1,000 foot wooden boat by himself.

I can't imagine ANYONE becoming cynical about that, and then subsequently reversing their position. I'm sure it's happened a handful of times, born-agains and what not, but c'mon wuf. If you're family left that behind, they are never going back. Even if they say they still believe, they don't. It's just for appearances. If they were really that faithful, they wouldn't be off the rails in the first place.

I'm not sure how this compares, but my family identifies as catholic. I was confirmed by a priest when i was 17. I can tell you I believe none of it. My parents just put that stuff on me because that's what their parents did for them, and that's what they assumed they were supposed to do. I don't think my parents are real believers, but they'd never admit it because they would feel as though they are betraying their family traditions.

Me, I just don't have the remorse. I went through the motions when I was a teen, but as an adult I'm not shy about my cynicism. My mom's eyes almost exploded out of her head when I told her I wasn't getting my first daughter baptized. But, she got over it. Two daughters and zero baptisms later nothing bad has happened.

I guess my point is that it sounds like your family is just going through the motions on the religion, and have been merely as a tribute to the traditions of prior generations, and not because of any faith or appreciation for God. And if that's the case, bringing out the bible is going to have the opposite effect you're seeking.

They're Christians and HUGE fans of the Bible. So much so that using the Bible as an authority is the most sure way to get them to humble themselves. However, the practice of the ethos has deteriorated over time. I believe that if that had not happened, the problems that have since arisen would not have.

[BananaStand]

Most modern day christian's would say those stories are meant to be read as metaphor.

I would disagree, unless I see some data. My perception on this is that virtually all christians believe in the virgin birth and the ressurrection literally.

they might waver on some of the other stuff, but those two are tent-poles.

[wufwugy]

Most modern day christian's would say those stories are meant to be read as metaphor.
I'd contend that even as metaphor, they're still garbled nonsense.

Some of it is. It also contains a sophisticated narrative from beginning to end about sacrifice. I think that narrative is on the order greater than what humans naturally consider in their lives.

But yeah, I left the religion in part because the apologetics were so bad.

[oskar]

I know it's not the most PC thing to say, but someone has to come out and say it!
Human sacrifice: kind of a bad thing!

Let's ignore for a second that the sacrificial son of god story was obviously put in place to stop the needless waste of perfectly good goats back in the day. What kind of a message does that send? You make a preemptive human sacrifice for my sins? How about no thanks? What kind of bitch ass guilt tripping is that?

[oskar]

I think I can argue why the biblical idea of self sacrifice is not particularly useful or moral... even without twisting what you said, but it's way past my bedtime. It would make it easier tho if you can give me a more concrete example.

[spoonitnow]

I think I can argue why the biblical idea of self sacrifice is not particularly useful or moral... even without twisting what you said, but it's way past my bedtime. It would make it easier tho if you can give me a more concrete example.

The Biblical idea of self-sacrifice is the central point in all self-improvement, all altruism and all investment in oneself or anyone else.

Edit: To give a simple example for the case of self-improvement, anytime you put time into working on a skill, you are exhibiting self-sacrifice, but you are also sacrificing to yourself. However, if that self-improvement allows you to do more for others, then you're also exhibiting self-sacrifice to them as well.

[wufwugy]

The Biblical idea of self-sacrifice is the central point in all self-improvement, all altruism and all investment in oneself or anyone else.

Indeed.

[oskar]

So you're saying if I work hard it will pay off?

HoW dID I nOt KnOw aBouT tHiS!

Gods wisdom truly is without bounds!

jk gfy

[wufwugy]

The tool is to use sacrifice at the times that it comes least naturally.

[spoonitnow]

So you're saying if I work hard it will pay off?

I know you're carrying on, but no, this is not what I'm saying. Sacrifice does not guarantee results, and that's a very, very, very important part of it.

[oskar]

Wow that is very very very specific. I am very very impressed. Why don't you give the story of Job as an example?

[spoonitnow]

Wow that is very very very specific. I am very very impressed. Why don't you give the story of Job as an example?

Job is one of the most misinterpreted stories from the Bible as a whole. It's about not losing internal direction (eg: by giving up and mentally becoming a victim) in spite of external setbacks.

For anyone not familiar with the story, here's a quick summary:

God tells Satan that Job is an incredibly good man. Satan suggests that Job is only good because he has been lucky. God and Satan have a bet over how Job will react if Job becomes incredibly, ridiculously unlucky (though Satan cannot kill Job). If Job stays good, then God wins, and if Job turns bad, Satan wins.

Satan causes Job to be incredibly unlucky one day, and it basically means that all of Job's kids and livestock die on the same day. Job stays good, and Satan loses the bet.

Satan and God repeat the bet. Satan causes Job to be incredibly unlucky another day, giving him these terrible sores and causing his wife to turn on him. Then Job's friends come and tell him a bunch of bullshit useless advice, and he realizes that his friends are idiots. However, although he keeps being good, the conversation and circumstances make him realize how little he actually knows about the nature of God.

God shows up and shows pleasure with Job realizing how much he doesn't know. God also shows displeasure at the shitty advice of the friends, but he forgives them out of respect for Job. God has won the bet, and he rewards Job by making him healthy again and giving him twice as much shit as he lost and a particularly long life to enjoy it.

It's very much related to the concept Poop keeps carrying on with about luck and how to deal with the results of it in the other thread.

I know you're carrying on, but no, this is not what I'm saying. Sacrifice does not guarantee results, and that's a very, very, very important part of it.

Since you seem like you want clarity on this point, and it would contribute greatly to the discussion, so I'll give it:

The metaphor of sacrifice is the key theme of the entire Old Testament and some of the New Testament, particularly of sacrifice to God, to yourself or to the greater good. You immediately have to clarify three parts of the metaphor:

1. What constitutes a sacrifice
2. How the quality of a sacrifice is determined
3. What is God

Some quick explanations:

(1) What constitutes a sacrifice is anything of value given up or destroyed. You generally see something like a lamb or some other type of food being burned to the point that it cannot be used as an example.

(2) The quality of a sacrifice is determined by how much value is being given up. It's worth noting that this is capped by the amount of value that a person could gather up to begin with.

(3) God can be seen as a metaphor for chances of success, your own self, someone else, the greater good or a variety of other things, but usually one of these four or five. There's a lot of overlap between these concepts that is often referred to in general as God.

A few key sacrifice-centric stories and their meaning:

- Abraham and Issac: Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Issac to God. Abraham went his whole long-ass life not being able to have a son, and it's all he wanted his whole live. God gave him one and then not long after ordered him to sacrifice it to test his faith.

The metaphor is about altruism and being willing to make the greatest sacrifice imaginable (your child as a metaphor of how great the sacrifice is, see #2 above) for the greater good.

- Cain/Abel/Seth: Abel makes a great sacrifice and has good things happen in life. Cain makes a sacrifice that isn't so good, but he can't figure out why it's not so good and why his life isn't turning out the way he wants it. God basically tells him to try harder and that making better sacrifices is the only chance he has of improving his own life (ie: the last thing you want to be told when shit isn't going how you want it is that it's your own fault). Cain lashes out in frustration and kills Abel (instead of continuing to try to make his own life better), destroying what is good because he can't get good things going in his own life. Cain is tormented by what he's done, and God creates Seth to sort of take Abel's place as the good son.

The metaphor is largely about what happens when you get jealous and frustrated over your life not turning out like someone else's when you think you deserve more and the choice you have to make between lashing out or investing in yourself. The role of how sacrifice does not guarantee results ties into this story strongly as well because Cain has the perception that he's making particularly good sacrifices when he's really not, and it's both unclear and irrelevant as to whether that's his own fault or the fault of "luck."

- Jesus: Jesus sacrificed himself to all of humanity for the greater good and then rose after death to ascend to heaven (resurrection being a common metaphor for improving as the result of self-sacrifice). Knowing what was going to happen to himself ahead of time is one of the keys to this story because he walked into it voluntarily while turning down the temptation to not have to do that from Satan.

This is a metaphor for the right way to live, showing that you can sacrifice yourself for the greater good and still benefit as a result.

[Poopadoop]

It's very much related to the concept Poop keeps carrying on with about luck and how to deal with the results of it in the other thread.

Which is why I'm starting my own religion: Poopism.

[BananaStand]

Which is why I'm starting my own religion: Poopism.

Uhhh, just so you know. You're not the first zealot who has had the idea to undermine everything that motivates innovation and independent thought.

What exactly makes your religion different?

[Poopadoop]

Uhhh, just so you know. You're not the first zealot who has had the idea to undermine everything that motivates innovation and independent thought.

What exactly makes your religion different?

It claims God (me) is mortal and in the physical realm. Also that He can only keep the heavens in balance when he has lots of chicks with big tits sucking and fucking him.

Oh wait, that's been done already too.

[oskar]

You could have simply assumed I already know those stories... not in the least because they only consist of a couple of verses and then it goes on for hundreds of pages on how to build a nice tabernacle and who begot who.

God can be seen as a metaphor for chances of success, your own self, someone else, the greater good or a variety of other things, but usually one of these four or five

Even if you're in the camp that thinks every single person and event in the bible is metaphorical, this is still a hard position to defend. Chance of success doesn't genocide almost the entire planet. Your own self hopefully wouldn't command infaticide, and the greater good wouldn't send a bear to maul 42 children.

There's an account of genesis that would be more fitting to support your side. I want to say it's the one in the torah, or possible apocryphal. It's where Cain digs the earth with his bare hands and runs after animals to harvest them, and Abel is just a jerk-off who runs around doing nothing, and in the process finds a magic ram from the garden who lets him domesticate his kind. He invents the plow and gives it to Cain, he gets some sweet love from Lilith while Cain only gets sloppy seconds. Cain finally breaks and refuses to use any of Abel's gifts and when Abel confronts him and wants to give him an Axe so he can chop better, Cain kills him with that axe. God punishes Cain by giving him horns among other things and he is later mistaken for a deer and shot by Seth (or one of his sons) if I remember correctly.
Anyway, the point is Cain thought he was being treated unfairly even though he was massively benefiting from the gifts from his brother.

I'm not saying those other stories are void of any moral lessons, but the reason I'd never use them is because of the other horrendous shit they're associated with. It's not a coincidence that the bible was used to justify the crusades along with a massive string of incredibly lethal nonsense in post-luther europe. Any lesson in ethics you can draw from it that actually make sense could be derived from logic without all the baggage that comes with doctrine.

My main point is that doctrine is never a good thing. If you can't explain your moral framework logically, you should try to explain it or re-evaluate it.

[oskar]

This is a metaphor for the right way to live, showing that you can sacrifice yourself for the greater good and still benefit as a result.

What I'd like to put into evidence why this is potentially an incredibly dangerous idea are Mother Teresa's home of the dying where they shoved in people in dire need for medical care by the thousands where they were not given any proper care or medication and just left to suffer or die because MT saw christ in suffering (there are many quotes of her along those lines).
So here's someone heavily endorsed by the catholic church, and looked up to by millions who thought she did good but by any reasonable standard was acting incredibly immoral.

[spoonitnow]

Chance of success doesn't genocide almost the entire planet. Your own self hopefully wouldn't command infaticide, and the greater good wouldn't send a bear to maul 42 children.

Good thing that the entire planet was not ever flooded and that the story is a metaphor that was passed down for centuries through an oral tradition before ever being written down and slightly changed to fit with the other stories that were being written down.

Good thing that no one ever commanded infanticide and that the act was a metaphor.

Good thing that the greater good never sent a bear to maul children.

...but the reason I'd never use them is because of the other horrendous shit they're associated with.

This shows that you don't get it and that you're not going to. You're firmly stuck in stage 2 of what I described above (for good reason from your own perception).

[spoonitnow]

What I'd like to put into evidence why this is potentially an incredibly dangerous idea are Mother Teresa's home of the dying where they shoved in people in dire need for medical care by the thousands where they were not given any proper care or medication and just left to suffer or die because MT saw christ in suffering (there are many quotes of her along those lines).
So here's someone heavily endorsed by the catholic church, and looked up to by millions who thought she did good but by any reasonable standard was acting incredibly immoral.

You're confounding the church and Christianity.

Also, Mother Teresa was a piece of shit.

[oskar]

Mother Teresa had a different opinion.

I think I made it perfectly clear that I'm following you along with your everything's-a-metaphor story. I'm saying those stories don't make a lot of sense, even as metaphors, and you'd have to bend over backwards to find present day moral values in them.

[wufwugy]

...

Good stuff. You have a better grip than I would have expected.

Essential to the Cain and Abel story is that Cain blamed others for problems he caused. Then when confronted by that, he dug in his heels and filled with hate and sought to get vengeance on the reality that he blamed. He killed his brother, his ideal, what he wanted to be, and in doing so he killed himself symbolically. Because he blamed others for his misfortune and because he took that to the extreme, Cain was lost forever. The Columbine killers are near picture perfect examples of Cain. Leninism/social justice/Marxism/Communism are great examples of this on a grand scale. Their shared core philosophy is to blame others and to exact revenge. And as we have seen from history, every society that used that as its organizing principle damned itself to the worst kind of destitution imaginable.

In less monumental ways, what I discussed in the OP is my family being Cain. The famous "get that log out of your own eye before trying to get the speck out of your neighbor's eye" line in the New Testament is a continuation of Cain and Abel. Jesus is a finalized, fully developed solution to the problem of Cain. In the Cain and Abel story, we only see what Cain did wrong and how he was damned. What we don't see is how to solve for that if you are Cain. Well, Jesus solved for that. He did so by humbling his pride and empathizing with that which he felt was hurting him. When you're Cain, doing that is the hardest thing you can do, which is why it killed Jesus. And Jesus was resurrected and renewed a better person because of his sacrifice he was able to make due to his humility and his empathy, unlike Cain who was forever damned because of the sacrifice he didn't make because of his pride and his hardheartedness.



On Job, it's a very Buddhist/Taoist type story. Particularly the Farmer's Son: http://www.rainbowbody.com/newarticles/farmerson.htm

The Bible tells a lot of the same stories that other religions do, just in a anthropomorphic way. Often where ancient Chinese religion would talk about The Way or Nature, Christianity calls that God, in my estimation.

[spoonitnow]

Mother Teresa had a different opinion.

I think I made it perfectly clear that I'm following you along with your everything's-a-metaphor story. I'm saying those stories don't make a lot of sense, even as metaphors, and you'd have to bend over backwards to find present day moral values in them.

It may help to realize that they were all told for centuries before they were ever written down, and most of them weren't written down with the intention to be put with all of the other stories that were written down. It's like a big pile of different books that they tried to make into one canon except they don't really go with each other all that well. There was literally a big meeting of motherfuckers to try to decide which books they were going to include in the current Bible, in which order along with which books would be left out. It doesn't tell one coherent story outside of super generalized themes like sacrifice because of this.

[oskar]

It is baffling that you would think the council of nicaea is news to me.

[wufwugy]

Any lesson in ethics you can draw from it that actually make sense could be derived from logic without all the baggage that comes with doctrine.

Maybe. And sticking to it is a whole different thing. I made this thread because of an observation that a sufficiently moral and sufficiently believed framework has a better probability of directing normal human behavior than what comes naturally.

My main point is that doctrine is never a good thing. If you can't explain your moral framework logically, you should try to explain it or re-evaluate it.

Depends on what you mean by explain and logically. There's plenty of good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically.

The point of this thread is explaining one reason that a doctrine might be a good thing. If you are a normal human you act in normal human ways, yet if you have a doctrine that is better than normal human, it can propel you to act in better than normal human ways.

[wufwugy]

The Crusades were a counter to the very successful centuries long invasion by warlords operating on religious doctrine created for the purpose of killing non-believers (and killing Christians).

[oskar]

Depends on what you mean by explain and logically. There's plenty of good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically.

The point of this thread is explaining one reason that a doctrine might be a good thing. If you are a normal human you act in normal human ways, yet if you have a doctrine that is better than normal human, it can propel you to act in better than normal human ways.

It can also make you act way way worse.
Easy example: Without doctrine, no one would look at a baby and go: this is all great, but let's cut a piece off of his or her genitalia. It takes religion for someone to do something as immoral as that.

Can you give me an example of some of the good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically?

[wufwugy]

It can also make you act way way worse.
Easy example: Without doctrine, no one would look at a baby and go: this is all great, but let's cut a piece off of his or her genitalia. It takes religion for someone to do something as immoral as that.

Then we agree.

If you could give me an example of some of the good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically (this is all I've been asking for this entire thread)

What kind of fathering or mothering makes for a society that lasts for very many generations?

Nobody really knows an exact answer to that question. Indeed one of the most logical ways to answer that question is to look at practices and ideas that have survived. We might not know what in a framework that has survived is creating fitness, but we do know that the framework is associated with survival and most probably fitness.

[MadMojoMonkey]

The Crusades were a counter to the very successful centuries long invasion by warlords operating on religious doctrine created for the purpose of killing non-believers (and killing Christians).

What? No. You can't talk about "The Crusades" as though they were a single entity.

Some were church sanctioned, some weren't.
Some were attempts to expand Christendom, which is BEING the invading warlords, not fighting them.
Some were meant to safeguard pilgrimages to holy sites in Eastern Europe, while others were simply pillaging Muslim lands.
Many went rogue and did way more than what the church originally sanctioned them to do.
Some ended up attacking and raiding Christian lands, just 'cause they were raiders with no official target at the time.


The Crusades were many, individual military campaigns, some church sanctioned and some not. Some offensive and some defensive.

[oskar]

Nobody really knows an exact answer to that question. Indeed one of the most logical ways to answer that question is to look at practices and ideas that have survived. We might not know what in a framework that has survived is creating fitness, but we do know that the framework is associated with survival and most probably fitness.

I don't think you can evaluate cultural memes the same way you do physical traits because one can be voluntarily changed and the other cannot. One obvious reason why religions are evolutionary beneficial because they all place a high value on reproduction. But they could also be a byproduct of pattern recognition. Those who seek patterns and explanation might fare better than those who do not, but those who do will also find patterns and explanations where there are none (yet). It's like the teeth of the babirusa. They're keeping twigs and thorns out of your eyes, and the ladies love them, but they also grow into your brain causing you to die a slow suffering death. The lord giveth...

I hate to prod you on this, but can you give me any specific examples?

[Poopadoop]

Can I just organise my life around Aesop's fables? They have a lot of morality in them and are a lot easier to get through than the Bible.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/

[wufwugy]

One obvious reason why religions are evolutionary beneficial because they all place a high value on reproduction.

It's likely.

I hate to prod you on this, but can you give me any specific examples?

Specific examples of what?

[oskar]

...

Can you give me an example of some of the good stuff that isn't quite that well explained logically?

[wufwugy]

What? No. You can't talk about "The Crusades" as though they were a single entity.

Some were church sanctioned, some weren't.
Some were attempts to expand Christendom, which is BEING the invading warlords, not fighting them.
Some were meant to safeguard pilgrimages to holy sites in Eastern Europe, while others were simply pillaging Muslim lands.
Many went rogue and did way more than what the church originally sanctioned them to do.
Some ended up attacking and raiding Christian lands, just 'cause they were raiders with no official target at the time.


The Crusades were many, individual military campaigns, some church sanctioned and some not. Some offensive and some defensive.

Taking back lands that were acquired by killing Christian ancestors, in the face of the perpetual conquest of the same accord.

[oskar]

Can I just organise my life around Aesop's fables? They have a lot of morality in them and are a lot easier to get through than the Bible.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/

^^
If you're looking for stories that illustrate moral values there's lots out there that does a better job than scripture.

[wufwugy]

...

What is the effect of communal prayer and worship on the longevity of a society?

[wufwugy]

^^
If you're looking for stories that illustrate moral values there's lots out there that does a better job than scripture.

Certainly. I'm not sure anybody here would challenge that.

[Poopadoop]

^^
If you're looking for stories that illustrate moral values there's lots out there that does a better job than scripture.

I also find a wise dog more believable than someone who lived 923 years.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/the-t...-house-dog.htm

Nice thing about Aesop is he always got straight to the point. The Bible, not so much.

[oskar]

What is the effect of communal prayer and worship on the longevity of a society?

idk. What's the effect of rolling heads down one side of the temple and the headless bodies down the other for longevity of a society?
If you want to say that communal prayer is good stuff, I think you need to explain how it's good stuff and not just point to the fact that it's a thing and say because it's a thing it's good stuff. That's very obvious circular reasoning.
The Kakapo and the Marabou stork survived. That doesn't mean it was a great idea. Survival isn't necessarily a sign of excellence.

[spoonitnow]

It is baffling that you would think the council of nicaea is news to me.

It's baffling to me that you act like it's news to you.

[oskar]

I also find a wise dog more believable than someone who lived 923 years.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/the-t...-house-dog.htm

Nice thing about Aesop is he always got straight to the point. The Bible, not so much.

See and they even give you a small CONTEXT CUE if you were to misinterpret it so you wouldn't start wearing silly hats and do silly things.

[wufwugy]

If you want to say that communal prayer is good stuff,

It might not be good. Nobody knows, but we DO know that there is plenty of good stuff in the human world that we do not understand and cannot explain logically.

The Kakapo and the Marabou stork survived. That doesn't mean it was a great idea. Survival isn't necessarily a sign of excellence.

Completely agree.

Survival is, however, an important mode of evaluation when it comes to things we otherwise have little understanding of.

[wufwugy]

I also find a wise dog more believable than someone who lived 923 years.

http://www.taleswithmorals.com/the-t...-house-dog.htm

Nice thing about Aesop is he always got straight to the point. The Bible, not so much.

The Bible has many flaws, there's no debating that.

The intention of the thread was to investigate the idea that maybe people are serious savages that naturally act in ways that lifestyle frameworks, like Christianity, can and do positively correct for. In my estimation, my family is a good example of people whose natural ability to navigate the world is of lower quality than the adoption of the Christian ethos in their lives is at navigating the world. I think this is very common outside of my family too.

[spoonitnow]

Easy example: Without doctrine, no one would look at a baby and go: this is all great, but let's cut a piece off of his or her genitalia. It takes religion for someone to do something as immoral as that.

People do that and much worse without the influence of religion. I think you may overestimate innate morality.

[wufwugy]

People do that and much worse without the influence of religion. I think you may overestimate innate morality.

I have discussed family related problems with various members of my family a substantial amount. Logic and explanation is received almost entirely through the person's bias, and by the end of the conversation, not only has no progress towards a solution been made, but biases are probably entrenched.

Yet, every time I frame the situation in terms of the Bible, the family member stops filtering the information through their own biases that are causing the family trouble in the first place and instead filters through the bias that the Bible has the answers for how to comport oneself, and almost like waving a magic wand, they come away questioning their own role in the conflicts' causes.

It's almost like people are naturally homo sapiens. Religion appears to me to be an incredibly powerful tool to get homo sapiens that are acting like homo sapiens and causing the problems that homo sapiens are wont to cause to instead override their natural homo sapien-ness.

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

I'm not a fan of the worship of the natural human that the West has conjured off the back of the Christian ethos either.

[spoonitnow]

I have discussed family related problems with various members of my family a substantial amount. Logic and explanation is received almost entirely through the person's bias, and by the end of the conversation, not only has no progress towards a solution been made, but biases are probably entrenched.

Yet, every time I frame the situation in terms of the Bible, the family member stops filtering the information through their own biases that are causing the family trouble in the first place and instead filters through the bias that the Bible has the answers for how to comport oneself, and almost like waving a magic wand, they come away questioning their own role in the conflicts' causes.

It's almost like people are naturally homo sapiens. Religion appears to me to be an incredibly powerful tool to get homo sapiens that are acting like homo sapiens and causing the problems that homo sapiens are wont to cause to instead override their natural homo sapien-ness.

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

I'm not a fan of the worship of the natural human that the West has conjured off the back of the Christian ethos either.

The entire concept of reasoning with people is mistaken with the concept of being effective at persuading them.

[wufwugy]

The entire concept of reasoning with people is mistaken with the concept of being effective at persuading them.

Very much so.

[wufwugy]

With that in mind, religion is EXTREMELY persuasive, maybe the most persuasive thing ever. That suggests that if the tenets of the religion are better than the natural function of the human, the religion might be on net a good for humanity.

[spoonitnow]

With that in mind, religion is EXTREMELY persuasive, maybe the most persuasive thing ever. That suggests that if the tenets of the religion are better than the natural function of the human, the religion might be on net a good for humanity.

I'd agree to the degree that it's used for good. It can be used for evil as well. It's just a tool, etc etc.

[Poopadoop]

I have discussed family related problems with various members of my family a substantial amount. Logic and explanation is received almost entirely through the person's bias, and by the end of the conversation, not only has no progress towards a solution been made, but biases are probably entrenched.

Yet, every time I frame the situation in terms of the Bible, the family member stops filtering the information through their own biases that are causing the family trouble in the first place and instead filters through the bias that the Bible has the answers for how to comport oneself, and almost like waving a magic wand, they come away questioning their own role in the conflicts' causes.

It's almost like people are naturally homo sapiens. Religion appears to me to be an incredibly powerful tool to get homo sapiens that are acting like homo sapiens and causing the problems that homo sapiens are wont to cause to instead override their natural homo sapien-ness.

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

I'm not a fan of the worship of the natural human that the West has conjured off the back of the Christian ethos either.

I think you may be extrapolating a bit too far from your family to the general population. If you came to me or a lot of other people and said 'hey this is what Jesus would do', you may as well be telling me it's what Batman would do. I think I'd be more impressed by the wise and articulate dog story frankly.

But to speak to your immediate problem if it pushes the right buttons to quote scripture and all that as opposed to trying to use reason, then by all means testify.

[wufwugy]

I don't know, maybe I have some special insight into this given my perceptions into my family. All they do is blame each other and it's impossible to get them to not blame each other with any logic or reason, but the moment I put the conflict in the perspective that the Christian ethos does, they stop blaming each other and start productively looking for solutions.

inb4 somebody correctly points out that I am blaming others like a hypocrite. Even though I'm not really a part of the family problems I am discussing, I could have solved for all of them if I had sufficiently humbled myself and made the right sacrifices that would have led to those solutions.

[spoonitnow]

inb4 somebody correctly points out that I am blaming others like a hypocrite. Even though I'm not really a part of the family problems I am discussing, I could have solved for all of them if I had sufficiently humbled myself and made the right sacrifices that would have led to those solutions.

I don't know if that's the case, but I get your general sentiment.

[wufwugy]

I think you may be extrapolating a bit too far from your family to the general population. If you came to me or a lot of other people and said 'hey this is what Jesus would do', you may as well be telling me it's what Batman would do. I think I'd be more impressed by the wise and articulate dog story frankly.

Yeah I'm speaking in terms of people who basically are sufficiently Christian. In terms of people acting like normal homo sapiens and fucking shit up because of it, that applies to humankind all over the place. The Christian solution is obviously for those who appeal to the Christian belief.

[BananaStand]

Are you a devout Christian wuf? Do you embrace Jesus as your savior? Pray often? Go to church? Can you demonstrate, in practical and recent terms, how a connection with God has improved your life and kept you OFF the path that the rest of your family is on.

because if you're a poser....they'll see through that really fucking fast.

[wufwugy]

Are you a devout Christian wuf? Do you embrace Jesus as your savior? Pray often? Go to church? Can you demonstrate, in practical and recent terms, how a connection with God has improved your life and kept you OFF the path that the rest of your family is on.

because if you're a poser....they'll see through that really fucking fast.

I suspect the fact that they all know I'm atheist makes them listen even more when I talk about the good components of the Bible.

To a devout Christian, a family member who is atheist is only atheist for now. Eventually he'll come around.