Borgata's baccarat lawsuit against Phil Ivey

[Eric]

What do you guys think about this? How is it compared to the case against him in the UK?

[spoonitnow]

It's another crock of shit. There's nothing illegal about edge sorting; the casino has to agree to special terms of the game for it to work anyway.

It seems to me like the casinos who accept his terms are on a freeroll. If he loses, then they get his money. If he wins, then they just refuse to pay him.

For those who don't know, you can get an absolutely huge advantage against the casino if you know what the first card dealt is going to be in a hand. Edge sorting is a method to pick up on what some of the cards are, and it requires that the cards stay aligned one way during the game, even after shuffling. The casinos don't normally do this, so they have to agree to special instructions to keep them aligned the same way for it to work in the first place.

Finally, I want to point out that edge sorting is not cheating because you are only using information that the casino is voluntarily giving you.

[Keith]

is it beyond the wit of man to design perfectly symetrical playing cards ....its in the casinos interests at the end of the day. for him to pull the same stunt twice though .....it would be funny if all casino worldwide banned him just like the card counters etc. guess they make too much money off him playing craps though.

[jyms]

Would this be a usable technique for reading whole cards in HE i,e: SC vs Ax or AK? Not that you can see suits but knowing someone has two lower cards vs two high possible broadway types? Or a high low like a suited A

[Keith]

http://apheat.net/2012/11/30/video-w...-edge-sorting/

quite a good video explaining how its done. Holdem is hard to do it with as cards spin when dealt and shuffle will change alignment

[jackvance]

Not the first time he pulled this trick the casino should know better.

[Poker Orifice]

Not the first time he pulled this trick the casino should know better.

Does seem ludicrous. Why would they ever allow him to have the things done that he was requesting? Insanity.

[surviva316]

Does seem ludicrous. Why would they ever allow him to have the things done that he was requesting? Insanity.

As spoon pointed out, they're freerolling. If they win, they win; if Ivey wins, they refuse to pay.

[surviva316]

That said, I'd be interested to know what exact conditions Ivey broke by edge sorting. Just because the casino might have been wiley here doesn't make them wrong in the eyes of the game. I'm certain there are good comparisons to draw here, but can't think of any ... :/

[Eric]

Yeah, the lawsuit is whack imo.

[jackvance]

As spoon pointed out, they're freerolling. If they win, they win; if Ivey wins, they refuse to pay.

Very risky freerolling then. You're probably gonna lose when you let Ivey cheat and then you have to gamble it all on a lawsuit? I'd say a lot of ignorance and perhaps some bribery was in play.

[spoonitnow]

Very risky freerolling then. You're probably gonna lose when you let Ivey cheat and then you have to gamble it all on a lawsuit? I'd say a lot of ignorance and perhaps some bribery was in play.

It's a pretty common practice by casinos that goes back a long time. It's w/e.

[Eric]

Negreanu was tweeting like crazy the other day supporting Ivey.

[zeroguy]

It not Ivey fault that the manufacturer makes defect cards, it up to the casino to make sure the cards aren't mark. How is finding an edge Ivey fault. He use information available to him so that's not cheating. If I spot a defect on the cards, I would definitely use it to my advantage

[surviva316]

According to the article, it was expressedly against rules of the casino. I don't know what rule exactly it broke, and it may or not qualify for being bunk, but if we're getting semantical about it, breaking the rules of a game to gain a distinct advantage is cheating.

[boost]

According to the article, it was expressedly against rules of the casino. I don't know what rule exactly it broke, and it may or not qualify for being bunk, but if we're getting semantical about it, breaking the rules of a game to gain a distinct advantage is cheating.

I'm pretty sure the rules are written vaguely enough so that taking advantage of their poor implementation of the game is breaking a rule, but of course that definition of cheating is silly. It's like if they had one roulette table which had a defect causing the ball to be more likely to land on one color rather than the other. If I become aware of this, then chose to play at that table, betting on the preferred color, I'm not cheating.

[chemist]

It's another crock of shit. .....

another Crockfords of shit.

[Mr Bigcity]

any updates on the situation? Hasn't Ivey been accused of doing shady stuff in the past?

[agnesamurphy]

Came across this great longread on the controversy and the "ethical line" in gambling.

http://www.sportingnews.com/sport/st...ne-in-gambling

[Brownie]

I don't know what rule exactly it broke

The rule that says punters are not allowed to win the casino's money

[jackvance]

any updates on the situation? Hasn't Ivey been accused of doing shady stuff in the past?

He's a wellknown angleshooter, and I'm being polite.

[spoonitnow]

He's a wellknown angleshooter, and I'm being polite.

I agree, but to clarify: In casino games, yes. In poker games, not so much.

[dhubermex]

I am bumping this thread due to a recent post on the topic. I originally intended to combine the 4 posts from that thread into this one, but donked with the controls.

Here are the combined posts:

As many of you know Ivey is being sued by Borgata for edge sorting among many other things when he took advantage of faulty decks to win close to $10 million. Im curious to see your guys opinions on who should win this case and why.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ey-197361.html

Or you could read the thread already going

Sorry, I did not see that. This is probably the only forum that posts poker news in a sub forum other then news lol.

He seems to love tricky things, as all his lawsuits show

[Eric]

Borgata has some work to do - I wouldn't want to go against Ivey.