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  1. #1051
    My computer at work doesn't have speakers so I haven't watched the videos nor have I been really keeping up with this whole story. From what I understand though, I'm not too concerned.

    They had something similar when I was a kid. They were called baseball cards. You bought a pack, and you hoped it had a Jose Conseco card in it, but mostly you just got a lot of Wally Joyner, Greg Jeffries, and Frank Viola cards.
  2. #1052
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    Except that if you had that Jose Conseco card today, still in mint condition, it'd be worth something.
  3. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Except that if you had that Jose Conseco card today, still in mint condition, it'd be worth something.
    Not really. I'm using 1989 Topps cards as my basis of comparison, because that's what I had the most of as a kid. Jose Conseco is worth about 3 bucks. Frank Viola is only about 90 cents less.
  4. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Except that if you had that Jose Conseco card today, still in mint condition, it'd be worth something.
    Also "worth" is a very subjective term.

    In 1989, my Jose Conseco card was pretty much worthless in terms of utility. I couldn't play with it. It didn't DO anything. It's value only came from collect-ability and it's rarity compared to similar items.

    With these loot-boxes, obviously rarity and collect-ability are less important factors determining value. But there is significantly more utility than a baseball card. You actually *get* something that *does* something and provides value in the form of enhanced gameplay and a more entertaining experience.

    It doesn't seem relevant to cite whether or not the item purchased will hold it's value over time.

    Fake fruit can be displayed on a table centerpiece and enhance the atmosphere of a room. Real fruit can be eaten for sustenance and nutrition. The fake fruit will still be there, doing it's thing tomorrow. The real fruit will have been digested and flushed down a toilet by that time. Does that mean that the real fruit is "worthless"??? What if you're REALLY hungry?
    Last edited by BananaStand; 11-16-2017 at 12:04 PM.
  5. #1055
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    My computer at work doesn't have speakers so I haven't watched the videos nor have I been really keeping up with this whole story. From what I understand though, I'm not too concerned.


    They had something similar when I was a kid. They were called baseball cards. You bought a pack, and you hoped it had a Jose Conseco card in it, but mostly you just got a lot of Wally Joyner, Greg Jeffries, and Frank Viola cards.

    The cards were not actively being put in front of you and changing it contents algorithmically (read: by a machine) to keep you buying them. You didn't have to pull a slot, pull any lever, watch other people opening them forcedly etc. If you wanted to buy a card, you would just go and buy a card, provided you had the money.


    This is also exactly the kind of thinking these companies want the people to have nowadays. If you read up on stuff, you'd realize that there are manifestations of Skinner's Boxes. This shit is evil, and it's only going to get worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo
    Except that if you had that Jose Conseco card today, still in mint condition, it'd be worth something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Not really. I'm using 1989 Topps cards as my basis of comparison, because that's what I had the most of as a kid. Jose Conseco is worth about 3 bucks. Frank Viola is only about 90 cents less.

    Still, they woudl be worth something. It's an asset, and you can trade it with your friends. There is some, even however miniscule, intrinsic value in these.


    A digital lootbox has no value other to than your account by design. Only CS:GO has loot boxes which actually have value in the real world, and you can find the ironically non-gambling site CS:GO Lotto for instance where you can, well, gamble for them and sell them with other collectors. Literally only CS:GO.


    For all other lootbox shenanigans you would have to go through a lot of hoops, such as selling your account (which all sorts of other stuff are tied to, your other game purchases etc) in order to actually give them real world value. So, it is literally a money pit. By design.


    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Also "worth" is a very subjective term.


    In 1989, my Jose Conseco card was pretty much worthless in terms of utility. I couldn't play with it. It didn't DO anything. It's value only came from collect-ability and it's rarity compared to similar items.


    With these loot-boxes, obviously rarity and collect-ability are less important factors determining value. But there is significantly more utility than a baseball card. You actually *get* something that *does* something and provides value in the form of enhanced gameplay and a more entertaining experience.


    It doesn't seem relevant to cite whether or not the item purchased will hold it's value over time.


    Fake fruit can be displayed on a table centerpiece and enhance the atmosphere of a room. Real fruit can be eaten for sustenance and nutrition. The fake fruit will still be there, doing it's thing tomorrow. The real fruit will have been digested and flushed down a toilet by that time. Does that mean that the real fruit is "worthless"??? What if you're REALLY hungry?

    Again, you fall into the common trap. These things have no value outside of the game BY DESIGN. The only ones that do are specifically CS:GO's, as mentioned above. It is literally worhtless to anyone but you, or other gamers in the game which will by design never have owner access to your shit.


    Lootboxes have been implemented in modern games with the sole purpose of replicating Skinner's Box environments in order to maximize the cash they can grab in games from everybody. The thing is, most of these games are marketed towards underaged persons, up to the 17 year old demographic (Most games are rated E or PG13. Rarely do you get a. Mature rated game). So you can't really tolerate the gambling elements in them. Particularly if these are not advertised as such up front.


    Edit: I found a link specifically explaining the Skinner's Box concept and how it applies to loot-boxes


    It's not your fault that you do not understand the issue Banana. Obviously you always take the "Corporations should be allowed to fleece you any way they see fit" approach whenever we have had any discussions on here because Capitalism and bootstraps or whatever, and that's ok, but do a little bit of research on this one and you will see how bad this shit is. These AAA-game corporations, particularly EA, Ubisoft, Activion and Blizzard bank on casual gamers, like apparently you, to keep the practice going. They bank on the ignorance of the masses to normalize it. They bank, literally, on you not understanding this and therefore not giving two shits about it.


    The vast majority of people don't follow the industry; you want to play soccer you just buy the latest FIFA. They do not know beforehand about all the microtransactions (actually getting closer to being just transactions nowadays, these are definitely not micro anymore), consumables, lootboxes and the fucking bottomless pit slots that they will be faced with in the game which is designed to deceive and exploit you into paying more and more into the game. And of course, this is mostly/all geared towards children.
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  6. #1056
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    OK... this is not really my kind of thing, but I have to admit that I clicked on it, and lolled.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoB0HfGXNf0


    Stupid video embed not working.
  7. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    The cards were not actively being put in front of you
    Were you even alive in 1989? We didn't have the internet, or smartphones. My house had 12 channels. People got out more back then. And virtually every point-of-sale in America had a rack of baseball cards.

    and changing it contents algorithmically (read: by a machine) to keep you buying them.
    Dude, I know 1989 feels like forever ago, but math had been invented by then. Are you claiming that trading card companies had no idea which cards would be most coveted? Are you saying that they did nothing to drive the scarcity or distribution of the most coveted cards? C'mon.

    This shit is evil
    No it isn't.

    Still, they woudl be worth something. It's an asset, and you can trade it with your friends. There is some, even however miniscule, intrinsic value in these.
    Again, why is permanent liquidity suddenly the only measure of "worth"? Sometimes an item's worth is consumed.

    A digital lootbox has no value other to than your account by design
    So? There is a sandwich in my stomach right now that has no value to anyone other than me. It's useless to you, but it's giving me nutrition and the energy to write this post.

    So, it is literally a money pit. By design.
    So?

    Again, you fall into the common trap. These things have no value outside of the game BY DESIGN
    So?

    It is literally worhtless to anyone but you, or other gamers in the game which will by design never have owner access to your shit.
    So?

    Lootboxes have been implemented in modern games with the sole purpose of replicating Skinner's Box environments in order to maximize the cash they can grab in games from everybody.
    ZOMG!!! You mean corporations will leverage the popularity of their licensed content in order to increase profits among their target audience??? What foul treachery!!!

    The thing is, most of these games are marketed towards underaged persons, up to the 17 year old demographic (Most games are rated E or PG13. Rarely do you get a. Mature rated game). So you can't really tolerate the gambling elements in them. Particularly if these are not advertised as such up front.
    ^This is complete and utter bullshit that I will address at the end

    Read about half of it. Basically the author is a whiny bitch who got 'hooked' on an indulgence and doesn't accept responsibility for his own weakness. He blames it all on the evil corporations.

    It's not your fault that you do not understand the issue Banana. Obviously you always take the "Corporations should be allowed to fleece you any way they see fit" approach whenever we have had any discussions on here because Capitalism and bootstraps or whatever, and that's ok,
    Who is getting "fleeced"? You can spend $0 (other than the cost of the disc) and still play the game right?

    but do a little bit of research on this one and you will see how bad this shit is.
    Honestly, it doesn't seem that bad. It seems pretty similar to tons of other business models that have already existed for a long long long time. It seems to me that the most butt-hurt people here are the ones who are just a little irked that video games got more expensive.

    These AAA-game corporations, particularly EA, Ubisoft, Activion and Blizzard bank on casual gamers, like apparently you, to keep the practice going. They bank on the ignorance of the masses to normalize it. They bank, literally, on you not understanding this and therefore not giving two shits about it.
    No, I think they are banking on people like you eventually shutting up and realizing that your precious little past-time is provided for profit. No one owes you free extras.

    The vast majority of people don't follow the industry; you want to play soccer you just buy the latest FIFA. They do not know beforehand about all the microtransactions (actually getting closer to being just transactions nowadays, these are definitely not micro anymore), consumables, lootboxes and the fucking bottomless pit slots that they will be faced with in the game which is designed to deceive and exploit you into paying more and more into the game.
    So what you're saying is that they have found a way to make video games a deeper and more immersive experience, but in order to do that, it costs more. Rather than raise the price of games, (they've been $60 each for like 30 years now!), they implemented a system where the extras are optional and the user can make a conscious decision about whether or not to purchase them. How's that a bad thing?

    And of course, this is mostly/all geared towards children.
    This is the saddest and most pathetic of all of your arguments dude. I don't believe for a fucking second that you're really moved at all by any concern regarding children. I think it's just a convenient argument that you're co-opting to help keep your games cheap.

    You obviously don't have children, because if you did, you would know that EVERYTHING THEY DO COSTS FUCKING MONEY!

    Kids are bombarded with thousands of marketing attempts a day. Virtually every minute of their lives they are fed hype for every type of toy, game, show, movie, song, and electronic device you can name. It's all designed to get money. You never cared until it touched your precious little star wars game.

    And finally your "but think of the children" argument fails hard when you realize that this is all pretty much driven on card-based transactions, am I right? Kids 17 and under, shouldn't have credit cards. Period. It's up to mom and dad to secure their cards and make sound decisions on how, when, or even if they allow their kid to spend money on a loot box.

    Or...if the kid is buying gift cards with cash and then using them online.....so what? Kids blow their allowance on all kinds of shit. If a 15 year old works a paper route and blows the money on new elbow pads for C3PO, why do you even care? He doesn't have a credit card, so he can't go into debt. He can't spend more than he earns, so the worst case scenario is that we have a kid who learns that he can have more of what he wants if he works more. You know...... 'bootstraps and whatever'.

    If parents aren't securing their credit cards, or if they aren't informed of their 13 year-old's finances, then bad things are going to happen. Period. It could be video games, it could be phone sex. Are you just gonna outlaw everything because some parents are shitty enough to let their kids do bad things?

    I realize you're pissed about having to shell out a few extra bucks to feel "cool" among your digital trekkie pals, but a nanny-government solution is not the answer.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 11-16-2017 at 02:50 PM.
  8. #1058
    PS - if you REALLY REALLY REALLY gave a shit about deterring kids from gambling...you'd be ranting long and hard about fantasy football
  9. #1059
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    PS - if you REALLY REALLY REALLY gave a shit about deterring kids from gambling...you'd be ranting long and hard about fantasy football
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  10. #1060
    Tbf I tried to game again a bit a couple of years ago & the complete bullshit of microtransactions & season passes put me right off. I just sold my console and don't buy any games as a result.

    There is nothing wrong with in game transactions.
  11. #1061
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    LOL Bananastand, how many strawmen can you put in a single post? I gave up halfway

    And all I saw were strawmen and the classic arguments, like games are too expensive etc, you can spend $0 and play game (LOL, this post and this response)

    Here, have an 8 year old quote
    https://www.gamespot.com/forums/offt...-80s-26803548/

    Second,NES games cost on average between 45-60 dollars. The SNES games went as high as 70-80 dollars depending on the title. Even the N64 games were really expensive at first. The reason the PS2 era games lowered a bit was that PS1 standardized the disc,which is cheaper to manufacture than cartridge. But now disc type has changed,and everything else costs so much so prices are rising. But since you might pay 70 dollars for a ffVI for SNES,and 60 is standard,add in inflation,and games are actually cheaper now.
    Cartridges were actually fucking expensive to make ergo expensive games. Pressing discs? Not so much. All of a sudden though, pressing disks became fucking expensive as well. I bet you also knew that digital distributed games cost more nowadays than their pressed equivalents, despite costing less to produce a copy right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    IYou obviously don't have children, because if you did, you would know that EVERYTHING THEY DO COSTS FUCKING MONEY!

    Kids are bombarded with thousands of marketing attempts a day. Virtually every minute of their lives they are fed hype for every type of toy, game, show, movie, song, and electronic device you can name. It's all designed to get money. You never cared until it touched your precious little star wars game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    I realize you're pissed about having to shell out a few extra bucks to feel "cool" among your digital trekkie pals, but a nanny-government solution is not the answer.
    Trekkies =/= Star Wars btw.


    You definitely do not understand the situation. That's ok though.

    Here, a video on what's currently going on. Might give you some perspective. Or not

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  12. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    You definitely do not understand the situation. That's ok though
    I kinda think I do. I think you're just in denial

    Free markets and competition and capitalism are all great until it affects the price of something you like and then its "WTF!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN"
  13. #1063
    Life is gambling, just because you can say the word gambling and bring up negative connotations involved with that word doesn't mean it wouldn't be stupid to classify something like loot boxes as gambling because the legislation for those things was created without these things in mind.

    If you don't like it don't buy the game & don't use microtransactions. Go even further & support developers who aren't using them.
  14. #1064
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    DLCs used to be accepted. Then they started to cut out content to offer it as DLC. Started shipping games out incomplete, full price, and then offer the rest as DLC.

    Microtransactions were accepted, then they started hampering progression in full priced games down to a crawl unless you pay up to progress faster. NBA 2K franchise is notorious for this. The game would cost $60, and yet you could buyt $100 in virtual currency to buy shit like green shoes and bandannas.

    Then came the now ubiquitous lootboxes. In which now you have to spend real money for a chance in getting what you really want. This, of course, accompanied by all sorts of psychological manipulation and slot machine tactics and creations of Skinner's environments. You spend the money, but you don't actually get what you want right away; you have to keep spending money for more tries at getting what you want. In the meantime, what other players have keeps getting shoved in your face more and more prominently. All the while making it more difficult to earn said credits to being able to afford the lootboxes, which if you don't have you will keep having your ass handed to you over and over again, forcing you to pay up to compete. All of this happening in a full price game THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY BOUGHT (LOL at playing for $0).

    The rhetoric ithat these AAA publishers will offer you is that it isn't gambling. My stance is that it fucking IS gambling. And if it IS gambling, then how the fuck can it be allowed to be advertised to children? To be in the hands of and marketed to fucking kids?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    This is the saddest and most pathetic of all of your arguments dude. I don't believe for a fucking second that you're really moved at all by any concern regarding children. I think it's just a convenient argument that you're co-opting to help keep your games cheap.
    facepalm.gif
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  15. #1065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy
    Life is gambling, just because you can say the word gambling and bring up negative connotations involved with that word doesn't mean it wouldn't be stupid to classify something like loot boxes as gambling because the legislation for those things was created without these things in mind.
    Time to update the legislation. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably not a giraffe; it's a fucking duck.


    Quote Originally Posted by Savy
    If you don't like it don't buy the game & don't use microtransactions. Go even further & support developers who aren't using them.
    I do, and also at least 680,000 people agree with me.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfComments/wiki/downvoted
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  16. #1066
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    You spend the money, but you don't actually get what you want right away; you have to keep spending money for more tries at getting what you want.
    Where is all this outrage when they do the same thing with...
    ...baseball cards
    ...happy meal toys
    ...carnival games
    ...gumball machines
    ...cereal box prizes
    ...skee ball
    ...anything collectible
    ...virtually every iphone and android video game ever created

    In the meantime, what other players have keeps getting shoved in your face more and more prominently
    This reminds me of a Mitch Hedberg line that kinda goes like this...."I saw an ad for a casino and they showed a guy winning money. That's false advertising cause that's what happens the least! It's like if I advertised a hamburger by showing a guy choking!"

    It's a funny gripe but if you're truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products....then I might recommend some anger management.

    Furthermore, if you're just jealous of what other people have, then again...therapy might be the answer.
  17. #1067
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    People are invested in their franchise, if it's Football Manager, Battlefield, CS or whatever. It's easy to say "don't buy it then" from an outsider perspective, but if you really like a franchise, you'll probably still buy the next iteration.
    Here's why the BF outrage is justified: They sell you a full priced game with a mobile game F2P scheme. In addition to locking away half the content behind a season pass AND being a yearly franchise.
    Actual day-1 game mechanics and characters are locked behind a painfully slow grind and you have the option to buy faster progress with real money. This is something I can begrudgingly accept with F2P games because they somehow have to make money, but a full priced release with a full priced season pass in a yearly frenchise? This is truly unprecedented. In Rainbow Six Siege they did a similar thing, but the way they did is was to release a $15 version of the game that had painfully slow unlock progress and you could buy progress accelerators or individual characters once you realized your mistake, or you could just buy the full priced game and unlock pretty much everything within a month. It's very personal how much of this BS you are willing to take, but Battlefront2 got all of it and to no surprise to anyone, people are not happy.
    On the downside: They will backtrack and after a huge amount of negative press there will be a truckload of "oh well, ok then" press and I can't imagine this game doing poorly. No Man's Sky made millions and that game is universally hated. Marketing is everything.
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  18. #1068
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Time to update the legislation. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably not a giraffe; it's a fucking duck.




    I do, and also at least 680,000 people agree with me.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ListOfComments/wiki/downvoted
    That is essentially wimpy losers having a whinge about a game they will pretty much all buy & then spend loads of money on in game purchases. So not what I said at all.

    You also didn't get my point about changes in legislation, it would be weakening it to include stuff like this because it isn't gambling in the traditional degen image ruining families, lives etc that it was formed from.
    Last edited by Savy; 11-16-2017 at 05:05 PM.
  19. #1069
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    People are invested in their franchise, if it's Football Manager, Battlefield, CS or whatever. It's easy to say "don't buy it then" from an outsider perspective, but if you really like a franchise, you'll probably still buy the next iteration.
    Here's why the BF outrage is justified: They sell you a full priced game with a mobile game F2P scheme. In addition to locking away half the content behind a season pass AND being a yearly franchise.
    Actual day-1 game mechanics and characters are locked behind a painfully slow grind and you have the option to buy faster progress with real money. This is something I can begrudgingly accept with F2P games because they somehow have to make money, but a full priced release with a full priced season pass in a yearly frenchise? This is truly unprecedented. In Rainbow Six Siege they did a similar thing, but the way they did is was to release a $15 version of the game that had painfully slow unlock progress and you could buy progress accelerators or individual characters once you realized your mistake, or you could just buy the full priced game and unlock pretty much everything within a month. It's very personal how much of this BS you are willing to take, but Battlefront2 got all of it and to no surprise to anyone, people are not happy.
    On the downside: They will backtrack and after a huge amount of negative press there will be a truckload of "oh well, ok then" press and I can't imagine this game doing poorly. No Man's Sky made millions and that game is universally hated. Marketing is everything.
    If people don't do that then it's their fault, not anyone elses. If a company takes the piss they lose customer loyalty & it's a bad long term decision, this probably won't be.

    If making a decision makes you more money as a business why should you not be allowed to do that? F2P is still in very early stages so if developers are making poor decisions to exploit this then they will be damaged as a result.
  20. #1070
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    I don't care about any of the games this is currently happening with, but I'm trying to imagine what I'd do if this was in my thing. If they released WC4 or SC3 and it had the same BS... I'd still probably buy the game. I'd have a really high tolerance for BS because I'm invested in those franchises.
    I'll argue this like a dirty socialist: I don't think this is right even if it's making them more money than just releasing a complete game. A Battlefront game is money in the bank. It's impossible not to be profitable on the IP alone. Be a bit less of a greedy pig and just make a decent game! Other people can do it! Bethesda is doing it. Ninja Theory is doing it. Valve and Blizzard can occasionally do it. Why can't Gearbox and Activision do it?
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  21. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Where is all this outrage when they do the same thing with...
    ...baseball cards
    ...happy meal toys
    ...carnival games
    ...gumball machines
    ...cereal box prizes
    ...skee ball
    ...anything collectible



    On top of this, loot systems are designed to maximise use through carefully crafted audio and visual design. In interviews with my colleague Cecilia D'Anastasio earlier this year, the designers from games like Overwatch and Duelyst explain how their crates are designed to be a pleasurable experience.


    "When you start opening a loot box, we want to build anticipation," an Overwatch developer said. "We do this in a lot of ways -- animations, camera work, spinning plates, and sounds. We even build a little anticipation with the glow that emits from a loot box's cracks before you open it."


    Moment for moment, loot boxes are engineered to capture attention with a mixture of spectacle and psychological trickery not unlike what you might find at a slot machine.

    https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/10/lo...to-exploit-us/


    Explain to me how this resembles opening a happy meal, a baseball card or a cracker jack. Also, please do tell me if they kempt chargning you every time you openend the same happy meal, baseball card pack or cracker jack box. Because that's what they do nowadays. Play NBA Live 2018 and you will know what I'm talking about.


    If you can't understand or don't want to understand that THESE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS, I can only tell you to enjoy your pure bliss.


    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    ...virtually every iphone and android video game ever created

    DO you recall PAYING MONEY UPFRONT for any of these? Did you pay to download Pokemon Go?


    Now, AAA publishers want to charge you upfront AND charge you the micro's AND charge you for lootboxes AND hamper your progression as well.




    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    This reminds me of a Mitch Hedberg line that kinda goes like this...."I saw an ad for a casino and they showed a guy winning money. That's false advertising cause that's what happens the least! It's like if I advertised a hamburger by showing a guy choking!"


    It's a funny gripe but if you're truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products....then I might recommend some anger management.


    Furthermore, if you're just jealous of what other people have, then again...therapy might be the answer.



    LOL, you are truly fucking trollin' or you are really the densest human being in the world




    Hahahahahaha




    Dude, Activision patented this. A fucking patent. On exactly this that you are calling me "jealous" and "needing therapy" for being "truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products". They went to the USPTO with their "positive spin".


    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/...h-matchmaking/


    Now, when you die in EA's Battlefront 2, you get shown exactly which cards were used to kill you with.


    It would be the LOL if Activision sued EA for the right to be the scumbaggiest company


    Now that's a positive spin
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  22. #1072
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy
    If people don't do that then it's their fault, not anyone elses. If a company takes the piss they lose customer loyalty & it's a bad long term decision, this probably won't be.


    If making a decision makes you more money as a business why should you not be allowed to do that? F2P is still in very early stages so if developers are making poor decisions to exploit this then they will be damaged as a result.

    You can make all the money in the world you want without having to be a scumbag. If you have to be a scumbag to make money then you can go rightly fuck yourself.


    These companies prey on the fact that most people still have no idea that this shit is going on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oskar
    A Battlefront game is money in the bank. It's impossible not to be profitable on the IP alone. Be a bit less of a greedy pig and just make a decent game! Other people can do it! Bethesda is doing it. Ninja Theory is doing it. Valve and Blizzard can occasionally do it. Why can't Gearbox and Activision do it?

    This. And ninja theory proves why the "OMG GAMES ARE SO EXPENSIVE TO MAKE NOWADAYS" rhetoric is bullshit
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  23. #1073
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    The really sad part about this is that we're talking about Battlefront when this is pretty much the best time for games in the history of games. This year we've had Hellblade, Wolfenstein: New Order, Resident Evil 7, Cuphead, Owlboy, Prey, Vanquish and Bayonetta got a remastered PC release... Fortnite, Battlegrounds, Starcraft2 is F2P have I mentioned this yet? XCom War of the Chosen, Darkest Dungeon, Duck Game.

    There's no way I could possibly play even a quarter of the games that came out this year that I want to play.
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  24. #1074
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    The Belgians started to investigate after public outcry. The Dutch started to investigate. EA's response? Disable all in-game purchases. They got scared. But do not fall for this; it's not over



    Quote Originally Posted by Oskar
    There's no way I could possibly play even a quarter of the games that came out this year that I want to play.
    Indeed man.
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  25. #1075
    Regarding Battlefront:

    I don't care that new players don't have the same loadouts & options as more seasoned players. If a game is enjoyable you will play it and unlock things and you will eventually level the playing field. This is fine and it works as long as the starter weapons are 'good enough', the disadvantage relatively small, and the progression not too onerous.

    I also don't mind loot boxes, as long as the items contained within them are purely cosmetic. Overwatch and Rocket League have this system - you can make your character / weapon / car look super cool, but no amount of money spent will give you any competitive advantage.

    With Overwatch, items purchased through loot boxes cannot be traded. Yes, it's a money pit. But you don't have to spend anything if you don't want to and most players don't buy any, as you get regular loot box unlocks simply by playing the game. In this regard, they're completely harmless and an example of microtransactions done right.

    With Rocket League, items can be traded. This introduces the concept of 'profit trading' and just like CSGO a large trading community has evolved from this. But in both cases, the base game is very cheap (under $20) and all items are purely cosmetic. Interestingly it also means that if you don't want to gamble you don't have to - you can simply buy what you want from a market seller. Personally I have opened loot boxes and I have bought specific items through the trading community, depending on whether I fancied a gamble or not. It helps a bunch that Psyonix are a great developer who listen to their fans and are constantly adding new content to Rocket League, so I'm happy to support them.

    The only thing I wish was regulated is I would love to see the loot box odds disclosed, very clearly, at the purchase point.

    I think where EA really dropped the ball was in making it exceptionally difficult to level the playing field through progression. Paying $80 for a star wars game and then having to play 80-100 hours to unlock Luke & vader is ridiculous in itself, then another 200 hours or more to get all the stat boosting options on top is too much. But then giving people the option to bypass all that grind for an additional fee? It's easy to see why people are outraged, it's basically pay to win in an $80, AAA game.
    Last edited by Luco; 11-17-2017 at 06:18 AM.
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  26. #1076
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    The really sad part about this is that we're talking about Battlefront when this is pretty much the best time for games in the history of games. This year we've had Hellblade, Wolfenstein: New Order, Resident Evil 7, Cuphead, Owlboy, Prey, Vanquish and Bayonetta got a remastered PC release... Fortnite, Battlegrounds, Starcraft2 is F2P have I mentioned this yet? XCom War of the Chosen, Darkest Dungeon, Duck Game.

    There's no way I could possibly play even a quarter of the games that came out this year that I want to play.
    This year we've also had Horizon Zero Dawn, Zelda breath of the wild, Super Mario oddysey, Destiny 2, South Park The Fractured Butthole...

    Truly an epic year for gaming
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  27. #1077
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    People are invested in their franchise, if it's Football Manager, Battlefield, CS or whatever. It's easy to say "don't buy it then" from an outsider perspective, but if you really like a franchise, you'll probably still buy the next iteration.
    No...you're not 'invested'. Just because you think Captain Picard is cool, doesn't mean you have to buy every Star Trek thingy that ever comes out. If it's something you will enjoy and it's affordable for you, then buy it and have a blast. If you're going to be miserable and frustrated over the number of transactions, or if you simply can't afford to have an enjoyable experience, then....DON'T BUY THE FUCKING GAME.

    I was once the biggest fan of Final Fantasy that ever walked the earth. I friggen loved console RPG's in the 90's and early 00's. But online games were not my taste. And I wasn't high on the idea of paying for a monthly subscription. So Final Fantasy 11 didn't make my library.

    I don't feel like a forfeited any "investment"

    Here's why the BF outrage is justified: They sell you a full priced game with a mobile game F2P scheme. In addition to locking away half the content behind a season pass AND being a yearly franchise
    .
    So I was playing poker at a large casino on a busy saturday night. Some degenerate was at the table complaining that he really wanted to play blackjack, but every table in the house had a $25 minimum bet. "They really ought to have $15 tables so more people can play" he said. Every table in the house was packed. The house was doing fine. Why should they have to surrender at least $10/bet just so this ass-hole can join in? What do they owe him?

    Same thing applies here. If BF is too expensive for you...DON'T PLAY IT. If it's not too expensive for you, and you're willing to pay, then you have just *justified* the price!!! So you forfeit any right to complain!

    It's very personal how much of this BS you are willing to take, but Battlefront2 got all of it and to no surprise to anyone, people are not happy.
    If people are unhappy with the game, then the game won't sell very well. And maybe the game-makers will learn their lesson. But if the game does sell well, then obviously people weren't unhappy enough to complain with their pocketbooks.
  28. #1078
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    Quote Originally Posted by banana
    No...you're not 'invested'. Just because you think Captain Picard is cool, doesn't mean you have to buy every Star Trek thingy that ever comes out. If it's something you will enjoy and it's affordable for you, then buy it and have a blast. If you're going to be miserable and frustrated over the number of transactions, or if you simply can't afford to have an enjoyable experience, then....DON'T BUY THE FUCKING GAME.
    All EA games are going this route. Even NFS is now a lootbox infested grindfest. As long as no one complains, why should they change? Mobile pay structures in full price AAA games is where the AAA publishers want things to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by banana
    So I was playing poker at a large casino on a busy saturday night. Some degenerate was at the table complaining that he really wanted to play blackjack, but every table in the house had a $25 minimum bet. "They really ought to have $15 tables so more people can play" he said. Every table in the house was packed. The house was doing fine. Why should they have to surrender at least $10/bet just so this ass-hole can join in? What do they owe him?

    Same thing applies here. If BF is too expensive for you...DON'T PLAY IT. If it's not too expensive for you, and you're willing to pay, then you have just *justified* the price!!! So you forfeit any right to complain!
    Strawmanning once again Banana.

    Quote Originally Posted by banana
    If people are unhappy with the game, then the game won't sell very well. And maybe the game-makers will learn their lesson. But if the game does sell well, then obviously people weren't unhappy enough to complain with their pocketbooks.
    It will always sell well Banana. It's star wars, for crying out loud. This is exactly what EA is banking on, which is why they loaded this game up with every despicable tactic they could think of.

    If you would have actually read this post rather than strawmanning yourself ad nauseam you'd get a semblance of some sense as to what the actual problem is

    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...53#post2280853
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  29. #1079
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    This is the modus operandi

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Sterling
    companies are pretty smart to integrate this stuff into their franchises that are already popular.

    If the game flops they can just blame it on the game, or lack of interest in the game by the public

    And if the game does well, which it's bound to do as it's a popular franchise: They can say that including microtransactions, lootboxes, gambling devices, etc... had no impact on game sales.Shadow of War is bound to do well, because it's a part of an enormous franchise. Doesn't mean that people don't like the lootboxes and real life currency in the game.
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  30. #1080
    You're presenting this as if it's outrageous. It's not. Attractive product placement has been a thing for a LOOOOOOONG time.

    Remember the ninja turtles movie, when they had pizza delivered to their sewer lair? The delivery guy had on a ridiculous red and blue uniform plastered with Domino's pizza logos. When the turtles opened the pizza box, the lid moved right into the camera with the "Domino's" logo filling up 3/4 of the frame.

    All of that imagery and camera work was done on purpose, paid for by Domino's, with the intent of making you want to buy their pizza.

    Advertising is not a crime. Just because your video games now have commercials in them is not a good enough reason to demand oppressive nanny-government intervention.

    Explain to me how this resembles opening a happy meal, a baseball card or a cracker jack.
    ummm, explain to me how it doesn't? Explain to me how it's different than a kid walking through the grocery store, seeing a cereal box that says "one of four badass fuckin ninja figures inside!", and then saying "mom...buy me that box!" And if the mom buys the box, it's possible that they will be in the store the following week and the kid will say "Buy me that box...I wanna get a red badass fuckin ninja this time". And if the kid is disappointed when he gets another blue ninja....guess what happens the next trip to the grocery store?

    Also, please do tell me if they kempt chargning you every time you openend the same happy meal, baseball card pack or cracker jack box. Because that's what they do nowadays. Play NBA Live 2018 and you will know what I'm talking about.
    It was my understanding that the loot-box problem is different. You buy the box, hope you get what you want, but if you don't, you buy another box. Do you remember when happy meals had beanie babies in them for a while? People would go, buy a happy meal, look inside, and if they didn't get the beanie baby they wanted, the got back in line and bought another happy meal.

    If you can't understand or don't want to understand that THESE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS, I can only tell you to enjoy your pure bliss
    .
    They aren't really that different. Furthermore you should know that this has been happening in the video game industry for-fucking-ever. There was a time when people played video games, but didn't have the internet. So how the hell did people learn that Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A, start would result in beginning the game with 30 lives instead of 3? If you wanted that enhanced experience, you needed to subscribe to Nintendo Fun Club News (which later became Nintendo Power Magazine).

    Stuck at a difficult part in a game? You can call our Game-Master help line for some insane per-minute charge. No credit card needed, we'll bill your phone line. But you're on the honor system kids when it comes to getting mom and dad's permission [lol]

    And it just kept going from there. Want a blue controller instead of the standard gray? Pay us another 29.99. Then they stopped including second controllers with consoles. Want to play with a friend....another $29.99. Before HDMI cables there were those Red/Blue/Green HD inputs. No console ever shipped with the correct wires for that though. You got standard A/V cables. Want HD gaming?....another $29.99!! Or even if you didn't, alot of TV's back then only had the simple RF input, which required a different adapter.....for $29.99.

    Online subscription based games have been around since the 90's. Wanna play everquest...ok the game is $70 and it doesn't do shit...AT ALL...unless you sign up to pay another $13 bucks a month. Don't like that...well then you just pissed away seventy bucks for a plastic disc ass hole. Enjoy your coaster.

    DO you recall PAYING MONEY UPFRONT for any of these? Did you pay to download Pokemon Go?
    The point is regarding in-game purchases. The upfront money is kind of irrelevant. And some games do cost money upfront.

    Now, AAA publishers want to charge you upfront AND charge you the micro's AND charge you for lootboxes AND hamper your progression as well.
    Dude...it's THEIR product. They can structure and sell it however they want. The only exception is if their practices were really predatory and deceptive. And they aren't, at least not compared to anything else marketed to kids these days. So if you find that the game isn't worth the frustration....then don't fucking play it!!

    Dude, Activision patented this. A fucking patent. On exactly this that you are calling me "jealous" and "needing therapy" for being "truly miffed because a business uses a positive spin to advertise its products". They went to the USPTO with their "positive spin".

    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/...h-matchmaking/
    You know google does the exact same thing when it shows you ads based on your browsing history. Advertising to a target market is not a crime.

    Now, when you die in EA's Battlefront 2, you get shown exactly which cards were used to kill you with.
    Great, if you like that feature, then voice your opinion with your wallet. Buy games with that feature, and don't buy games without it.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 11-17-2017 at 12:06 PM.
  31. #1081
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    This is the modus operandi

    And if the game does well, which it's bound to do as it's a popular franchise: They can say that including microtransactions, lootboxes, gambling devices, etc... had no impact on game sales.Shadow of War is bound to do well, because it's a part of an enormous franchise. Doesn't mean that people don't like the lootboxes and real life currency in the game
    Final Fantasy X - 14 Million copies sold
    Final Fantasy XI - 2 Million copies sold
    Final Fantasy XII - 12 Million copies sold

    One of those games charges a subscription fee. Can you guess which one?
  32. #1082
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  33. #1083
    You guys are probably all young enough that most of your saved game files are on hard-drives now. You probably don't remember memory cards. But if you do, you probably don't remember a time BEFORE memory cards.

    Yeah, once upon a time, you could just save your game. That's it.

    Then in the late 90's they changed things. Now you had a choice. If you bought a game you could choose to A) Play the beginning of it over and over and over and over and over again. or B) Spend another $15 on a memory card so you can save your progress.
  34. #1084
    Extra hardware, HD wires, magazine subscriptions, 900-numbers, memory cards......these were all revenue streams that gaming companies used to have, but don't anymore.

    How do you propose they make up the difference?

    Should games just cost $150/each now and everything in them be totally free? Is that really what you want?

    What exactly would you like to have happen here anyway? Are you really calling for government intervention over what can and can't be in a video game? Cause that is a real slippery fucking slope dude. Eventually there could come a time when games aren't allowed to have guns, show violence, or contain realistic blood, cuz it's all being regulated by your parent-gov't for the 'public good'.
  35. #1085
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    You guys are probably all young enough that most of your saved game files are on hard-drives now. You probably don't remember memory cards. But if you do, you probably don't remember a time BEFORE memory cards.

    Yeah, once upon a time, you could just save your game. That's it.
    Actually my first console was an atari 2600 and saving your game was unheard of. Your game ended when you turned it off.
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  36. #1086
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    If you would have actually read this post rather than strawmanning yourself ad nauseam you'd get a semblance of some sense as to what the actual problem is

    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...53#post2280853
    I don't think you know what "strawman" means.

    But anyway, the "actual problem" is your own internal struggle about market forces dictating changes in how your pet-product is delivered.

    People said this same shit when the "greedy" record companies shut down Napster.

    You basically want your investment in these games to be capped at whatever the off-the-shelf MSRP is. You like that, cause its been that way for a long time, and change intimidates you. You are clutching to this white-knight sense of fairness that no one cares about except you. Like...you feel that a persons ability to compete in these games should be driven by their time invested and gaming talent. Now someone with more money than you can buy a winning character and do everything you can do, in a tenth of the time.

    I get why that might upset you, but suck it up cupcake.

    Sometimes businesses make accommodations for higher-profile, higher-frequency, or higher-paying customers. Just because you have a reservation doesn't mean that some high-roller can't drop the Maitre D a c-note and steal your table.

    That's life
    Last edited by BananaStand; 11-17-2017 at 11:25 AM.
  37. #1087
    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    Actually my first console was an atari 2600 and saving your game was unheard of. Your game ended when you turned it off.
    LOL, in 2017 if you paid $60 for a game that you could beat in under 90 minutes, there would be an uproar.

    Maybe the government should pass laws mandating the number of quality gameplay hours per dollar a game publisher has to provide.
  38. #1088
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    LOL, in 2017 if you paid $60 for a game that you could beat in under 90 minutes, there would be an uproar.

    Maybe the government should pass laws mandating the number of quality gameplay hours per dollar a game publisher has to provide.
    Ok now I'm confused.

    Bananastand: You kids don't remember older consoles
    Me: actually yes I do
    Bananastand: Lol the government should regulate video game quality
    Me: Ok now I'm confused.
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  39. #1089
    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    Bananastand: Lol the government should regulate video game quality
    Me: Ok now I'm confused.
    Maybe I should have used hashtag-sarcasm on that last line. I definitely don't see any reason the gov't should be meddling in video games.

    My only point was that the industry has been bilking gamers for a long time. It only seems to be a problem now because the whiners have a youtube channel they can use to promote their bitching and complaining.

    My comment was somewhat hyperbolic, sorry for the confusion. My point is that once upon a time there was a lot of frustrating shit about video games that cost money. Alot of that went away as the market evolved. Sometimes it took a while for that stuff to go away. Sometimes it came back in various incarnations. And what's going on today seems absolutely no different.

    We didn't need the government meddling then, so why the hell do we need it now?
    Last edited by BananaStand; 11-17-2017 at 11:57 AM.
  40. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    You're presenting this as if it's outrageous. It's not. Attractive product placement has been a thing for a LOOOOOOONG time.

    Remember the ninja turtles movie, when they had pizza delivered to their sewer lair? The delivery guy had on a ridiculous red and blue uniform plastered with Domino's pizza logos. When the turtles opened the pizza bog, the lid moved right into the camera with the "Domino's" logo filling up 3/4 of the frame.

    All of that imagery and camera work was done on purpose, paid for by Domino's, with the intent of making you want to buy their pizza.

    Advertising is not a crime. Just because your video games now have commercials in them is not a good enough reason to demand oppressive nanny-government intervention.
    "Attractive product placement"? Did you read anything in the link?


    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    ummm, explain to me how it doesn't?
    Nah, you explain. You came up with the comparision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Explain to me how it's different than a kid walking through the grocery store, seeing a cereal box that says "badass fuckin ninja figure inside!", and then saying "mom...buy me that box!"
    Did the kid need that "badass fuckin ninja figure inside!" in order to get something accomplished? Was the kids progress hampered by lacking that specific item? Was the kid manipulated psychologically in order to get that particular item?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    It was my understanding that the loot-box problem is different.
    This fact is quite apparent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    You buy the box, hope you get what you want, but if you don't, you buy another box.
    Yes, the psychological manilation needed to get you to spend more. The unboxing experience of these lootboxes is also quite pico bello.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Do you remember when happy meals had beanie babies in them for a while? People would go, buy a happy meal, look inside, and if they didn't get the beanie baby they wanted, the got back in line and bought another happy meal.
    No, and I assume no one needed those beanie babies in order to accomplish something else much easier than if they didn't have that specific beanie baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    They aren't really that different. Furthermore you should know that this has been happening in the video game industry for-fucking-ever. There was a time when people played video games, but didn't have the internet. So how the hell did people learn that Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A, start would result in beginning the game with 30 lives instead of 3? If you wanted that enhanced experience, you needed to subscribe to Nintendo Fun Club News (which later became Nintendo Power Magazine).
    A friend told me that cheat code. Different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Stuck at a difficult part in a game? You can call our Game-Master help line for some insane per-minute charge. No credit card needed, we'll bill your phone line. But you're on the honor system kids when it comes to getting mom and dad's permission [lol]
    In my experience, this never happened to me. Different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    And it just kept going from there. Want a blue controller instead of the standard gray? Pay us another 29.99. Then they stopped including second controllers with consoles. Want to play with a friend....another $29.99.
    You can sell that controller to someone else. Or chew on it. Different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Before HDMI cables there were those Red/Blue/Green HD inputs. No console ever shipped with the correct wires for that though. You got standard A/V cables. Want HD gaming?....another $29.99!!
    You could buy these in any store at varying prices. Different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Or even if you didn't, alot of TV's back then only had the simple RF input, which required a different adapter.....for $29.99.
    Again, you could buy these in any store at varying prices. You could even borrow one if you were a broke ass. Different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Online subscription based games have been around since the 90's. Wanna play everquest...ok the game is $70 and it doesn't do shit...AT ALL...unless you sign up to pay another $13 bucks a month. Don't like that...well then you just pissed away seventy bucks for a plastic disc ass hole. Enjoy your coaster.
    Sure, as long as you advertise being an online subscription service in advance no one has a problem with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    The point is regarding in-game purchases. The upfront money is kind of irrelevant. And some games do cost money upfront.
    You missed the point completely but I'm not surprised. You were to busy arguing against your own strawmen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Dude...it's THEIR product. They can structure and sell it however they want. The only exception is if their practices were really predatory and deceptive. And they aren't, at least not compared to anything else marketed to kids these days. So if you find that the game isn't worth the frustration....then don't fucking play it!!
    I wonder what you call really predatory and deceptive. I assume it would have to involve this dude:



    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    You know google does the exact same thing when it shows you ads based on your browsing history. Advertising to a target market is not a crime.
    I was unaware that you paid google $60 to make use of its search features

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Great, if you like that feature, then voice your opinion with your wallet. Buy games with that feature, and don't buy games without it.
    The thing is they never advertise these features. I mean, it's kind of obvious why, but I assume I have to mention this anyway. You only get to know this, particularly if you are the casual gamer they prey on, AFTER you already bought the game "because I like Star Wars". Oh, and let's not go into preorders, that one is for a different day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Final Fantasy X - 14 Million copies sold
    Final Fantasy XI - 2 Million copies sold
    Final Fantasy XII - 12 Million copies sold
    I have no idea. You tell me.

    Did it advertise itself as being a SAAS (Subscription Service) upfront or did the players know this AFTER PREORDERING/BUYING THE FUCKING GAME?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    You guys are probably all young enough that most of your saved game files are on hard-drives now. You probably don't remember memory cards. But if you do, you probably don't remember a time BEFORE memory cards.

    Yeah, once upon a time, you could just save your game. That's it.

    Then in the late 90's they changed things. Now you had a choice. If you bought a game you could choose to A) Play the beginning of it over and over and over and over and over again. or B) Spend another $15 on a memory card so you can save your progress.
    LOL, comparing buying tangible things to microtransactions. The only way this would compare was if buying the memory card implied you paying for a black box, which could contain the memory card, but also some broccolli and cheese, a few tic tacs and a literall polished stone. And then out of every 1000 black boxes, only 50 would contain a memory card. Also, of different sizes because why the hell not. The other 950, 600 would contain raw broccoli and cheese, 250 would contain tic tacs, and 100 would contain polished stones.

    Oh, and BTW, River City ransom saves were codes. You had to input a code to get your character back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Extra hardware, HD wires, magazine subscriptions, 900-numbers, memory cards......these were all revenue streams that gaming companies used to have, but don't anymore.
    LOL, those that made the games really did benefit from selling those magazines back in the day.

    You are making less and less sense, but let's continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    How do you propose they make up the difference?

    Should games just cost $150/each now and everything in them be totally free? Is that really what you want?
    Cuphead recently launched at $30. No microtransactions, no PVP, no lootboxes, no DLC yet, it's not even a known IP of, shall we say, Star Wars calibre? It's just a solid good game. It sold 1 million copies at full price in 2 weeks.

    https://www.pcgamesn.com/cuphead/cuphead-sales-numbers


    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    I don't think you know what "strawman" means.?
    No, you misrepresent the position/change the argument and then argue against it. Classic strawmanning

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    What exactly would you like to have happen here anyway? Are you really calling for government intervention over what can and can't be in a video game? Cause that is a real slippery fucking slope dude. Eventually there could come a time when games aren't allowed to have guns, show violence, or contain realistic blood, cuz it's all being regulated by your parent-gov't for the 'public good'.
    I don't want slot machines in games aimed at 13 year olds. I also do not want PAY TO WIN mechanics in full priced supposedly AAA titles. I think I mentioned these quite a few times in this thread, but I maybe I'm mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    You basically want your investment in these games to be capped at whatever the off-the-shelf MSRP is.
    No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    You like that, cause its been that way for a long time, and change intimidates you. You are clutching to this white-knight sense of fairness that no one cares about except you. Like...you feel that a persons ability to compete in these games should be driven by their time invested and gaming talent. Now someone with more money than you can buy a winning character and do everything you can do, in a tenth of the time.

    I get why that might upset you, but suck it up cupcake.
    No you don't, because you keep misrepresenting my position and then arguing against it. And you also keep throwing false equivalencies in there for good measure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    but suck it up cupcake.
    No, honeybun. This practice has to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Sometimes businesses make accommodations for higher-profile, higher-frequency, or higher-paying customers. Just because you have a reservation doesn't mean that some high-roller can't drop the Maitre D a c-note and steal your table.

    That's life
    Then you advertise as such. Call it: Star Wars Casino Battlefront 2 for Rich People. Sell the game at $1000. Or whatever you want. Heck, sell the Super Titanium Deluxe Edition for $1000000. And make it 18+ as well.

    But don't tell me it's NOT pay to win when it is demonstrably PAY TO WIN just as in those mobile games I don't play because they are PAY TO WIN. Also, don't tell me it's NOT GAMBLING when it definitely IS GAMBLING.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    LOL, in 2017 if you paid $60 for a game that you could beat in under 90 minutes, there would be an uproar.

    Maybe the government should pass laws mandating the number of quality gameplay hours per dollar a game publisher has to provide.
    Not really, as long as you advertise as being such. Why the deception?

    Senua’s Sacrifice is 11 hours at most (more likely between 6 and 8) to play through, and people love that game. And only $40. You see, there is this concept called replayability. Do you remember Crono Trigger? If you wanted to, you could beat it in 30 minutes flat too. Or you could take 30 hours with it. It was all up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    My only point was that the industry has been bilking gamers for a long time. It only seems to be a problem now because the whiners have a youtube channel they can use to promote their bitching and complaining.

    My comment was somewhat hyperbolic, sorry for the confusion. My point is that once upon a time there was a lot of frustrating shit about video games that cost money. Alot of that went away as the market evolved. Sometimes it took a while for that stuff to go away. Sometimes it came back in various incarnations. And what's going on today seems absolutely no different
    It's a very weak point you have, as what is going on now is not exactly like what came before. Right now we are trying to ensure that this stuff goes away because the while was already taken, but I'm afraid pandora's box is already open thanks mainly to CS-GO, Overwatch and GTA V. Which leads us to

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    We didn't need the government meddling then, so why the hell do we need it now?
    Mainly because of the gambling non-gambling element in products marketed squarely at 13 year olds. And of course the whales (read: vulnerables)
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  41. #1091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo
    OK... this is not really my kind of thing, but I have to admit that I clicked on it, and lolled.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoB0HfGXNf0


    Stupid video embed not working.
    Embed is working. It's the front end though; some javascript is broken right now making the some of the post features not work. I assume some update broke a CDN link or something along those lines

    You have to use the phpbb tags to do any quoting, stylizing or embeds around here these days

    If you need a refresher course on these, here is a link

    https://www.phpbb.com/community/help/bbcode
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  42. #1092
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    rofl I was just going to comment that the amount of points Banana is wrong at is insurmountable and I couldn't possibly start to argue against one of them because he'll just come up with 10 more before I'm done. Hat's off to Jack for going for it.

    I'll just take this one
    No...you're not 'invested'. Just because you think Captain Picard is cool, doesn't mean you have to buy every Star Trek thingy that ever comes out. If it's something you will enjoy and it's affordable for you, then buy it and have a blast. If you're going to be miserable and frustrated over the number of transactions, or if you simply can't afford to have an enjoyable experience, then....DON'T BUY THE FUCKING GAME.

    Don't be this obnoxious when you're so fucking wrong. I'm not invested because of an IP, I'm invested in the game mechanics. I can't speak for other people but there is absolutely nothing out there that plays like Blizzards RTS. I can't just go play another RTS because there are none. This is like saying if they make football pay2win you can just go play basketball because it has balls and you wear shoes to play it. It's not the same!
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  43. #1093
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    * Because you're definitely going to misread this again: I'm taking a franchise I'm invested in as an example because I couldn't explain what makes the Battlefront franchise compelling because you couldn't pay me enough to play that shit.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  44. #1094
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    "Attractive product placement"? Did you read anything in the link?
    Yeah, and I needed a full minute to re-calibrate my eyeballs after rolling them so fucking hard. Basically it says "Video games are fun, and loot boxes are part of the game, so we made those fun too". Would you rather the screen flash a warning saying "Strap in fuck-tard, we're charging you money and you aren't gonna like it"

    Nah, you explain. You came up with the comparision.
    I did. Extensively

    Did the kid need that "badass fuckin ninja figure inside!" in order to get something accomplished?
    This statement provides some insight into your flawed thinking. Playing video games is not an "accomplishment". You're playing with a toy.

    Was the kids progress hampered by lacking that specific item?
    Your use of the term "progress" suggests that you take your video games a little too seriously. They're not real Jack. Ok?

    Also the word "hampered" implies that there is some verifiable minimum standard of progression speed in video games. There isn't. I've been playing Clash of Clans for 5 fuckin years and I'm still on town-hall level 9. I've spent more than a year just upgrading walls. It's a grind. But if someone spends money to buy gems and get to level 10 before me...so be it. I wouldn't say that my progress has been "hampered" by not spending money. I progressed through the game at a pace and investment total that best suited my needs. If the game didn't offer me that choice, then I would have simply played a different game.

    Was the kid manipulated psychologically in order to get that particular item?
    Ummm....yeah. I mean, the words "badass ninja figure inside" didn't appear in tiny print under the ingredients list. It's on the front of the box, with vivid coloring, enhanced sizing, attractive posing, and high-impact words usually followed by exclamation points. It's a well known fact grocery stores will put the products they intend to move the most on the shelves closest to eye level. A store can change its top selling products just by changing which shelf those products are on. Prices ending in 99 cents are a psychological manipulation. So are 2 for 1 sales, or anything followed by the phrase "limited time offer".

    All human beings really need is food, water, and shelter. A wanting for anything else is really the result of a psychological manipulation. Why did you expect video games to be immune to that?

    Yes, the psychological manilation needed to get you to spend more. The unboxing experience of these lootboxes is also quite pico bello.
    So they're good salesmen. Bravo to them. Why is it a crime?

    No, and I assume no one needed those beanie babies in order to accomplish something else much easier than if they didn't have that specific beanie baby.
    Well beanie babies don't actually 'do' anything. They exist to be collected. So in order to accomplish the goal of a complete collection, you did in fact need at least one of every specific beanie baby.

    Completing the collection without that specific beanie babie was not just harder...it was impossible!

    A friend told me that cheat code. Different.
    Well maybe you pirated it by word-of-mouth, but if you follow the chain backward, Konami got paid somehow.

    In my experience, this never happened to me. Different.
    It's not different. Just because you never patronized those phone lines doesn't mean they didn't make money. People frustrated with the pace or difficulty of the game could spend money to advance more easily.

    You can sell that controller to someone else. Or chew on it. Different.
    What if you don't sell it to someone else? What if you just keep it forever and use it entirely for your own enjoyment. Does that mean you didn't get your money's worth?

    You could buy these in any store at varying prices. Different.
    Or you could buy them on amazon for a tenth of the price at stores. Does that mean the stores are evil? Or is it just smart on their part when they sell you a new console and say "you'll need a cable. You can buy one on amazon for 10 bucks, or buy ours for 30. Ours is right here, Amazon will take at least two days. If you wanna play that game you just bought tonight....then you need to put up an extra twen-spot right fuckin now bro!"

    Again, you could buy these in any store at varying prices. You could even borrow one if you were a broke ass. Different.
    See above. Just because ALL the stores are doing it doesn't mean it's not gouging. Also, a broke ass friend could come over to your house and play your guy on star wars. So it's not different

    Sure, as long as you advertise being an online subscription service in advance no one has a problem with it.
    Are you saying that video game packaging doesn't explicitly state "subscription required". I just googled some ps4 game box art and it seems that many of them do in fact contain that labeling. If all you're calling for is some consistency in labeling, then I guess I can get behind that. Most mobile games i see say "contains in game purchases". That seems like fair warning enough. If you want something more explicit than that, I'd say you're being a bit of a crybaby.

    I was unaware that you paid google $60 to make use of its search features
    So your'e saying that you'd be ok with the in-game bilking if your upfront cost was lower? I thought this was all about the kids or something?

    The thing is they never advertise these features. I mean, it's kind of obvious why, but I assume I have to mention this anyway. You only get to know this, particularly if you are the casual gamer they prey on, AFTER you already bought the game "because I like Star Wars". Oh, and let's not go into preorders, that one is for a different day.
    This is bullshit. It's widely publicized that consoles are sold pretty close to cost, or even at a loss, with the idea that it creates a revenue stream of future purchases in the form of games and accessories. The whole video game industry is built on assuming a long line of repeat purchases from a single customer. I simply don't believe that the video game industry would embrace this if it really pisses off new gamers and sours them on repeat business. Obviously, it's not as big of a problem as you seem to think it is.

    LOL, comparing buying tangible things to microtransactions.
    LOL at the idea that only 'tangible things' have value.

    The only way this would compare was if buying the memory card implied you paying for a black box, which could contain the memory card, but also some broccolli and cheese, a few tic tacs and a literall polished stone. And then out of every 1000 black boxes, only 50 would contain a memory card. Also, of different sizes because why the hell not. The other 950, 600 would contain raw broccoli and cheese, 250 would contain tic tacs, and 100 would contain polished stones.
    What does it cost to open the black box? If it's equal to the average of 50 memory cards, 600 broc & cheese, 250 tic tacs, and 100 polished stones. Then it seems pretty fair to me.

    Oh, and BTW, River City ransom saves were codes. You had to input a code to get your character back
    .
    Yeah, and I'll bet there were codes you could put in that would give you a pretty good character, even if you hadn't 'earned' that character through game play. You could enter "JUSTIN BAILEY" on Metroid and start with a loaded Samus. No one knew that unless they read or heard about it from Nintendo Fun Club news, which only existed to bilk a few extra dollars from enthusiastic, impatient, or frustrated gamers.

    LOL, those that made the games really did benefit from selling those magazines back in the day.
    Dude....we didn't have the internet. Video games were not mainstream enough to be advertised in prime time. If you wanted to know what was up, you needed to read the magazines. The only reason I knew Final Fantasy existed is because of Nintendo Power. It made me want to buy the game. I did end up buying the game. So....yeah, game makers benefited ALOT from that shit.

    Cuphead recently launched at $30. No microtransactions, no PVP, no lootboxes, no DLC yet, it's not even a known IP of, shall we say, Star Wars calibre? It's just a solid good game. It sold 1 million copies at full price in 2 weeks.
    So?? Also, you know Star Wars caliber IP costs money right?

    I don't want slot machines in games aimed at 13 year olds.
    Ok, they're aren't. Don't worry.

    I also do not want PAY TO WIN mechanics in full priced supposedly AAA titles.
    You wouldn't care if you could afford it. And if you can't afford it, then maybe you're spending too much time playing video games.

    I think I mentioned these quite a few times in this thread, but I maybe I'm mistaken.
    You've said what you don't like. You haven't offered a potential solution. You just want to keep throwing a tantrum until someone bigger and stronger comes along and makes the bad people stop being bad.

    No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though
    Whaaaaaaaaaaat???? You mean you made a purchase decision based on your own needs, preferences, and budget all under your own free will??? How the fuck did you do that with all these greedy corporations controlling your mind!!!???

    No, honeybun. This practice has to stop.
    Why? Who is getting hurt? You and Oskar keep saying how much money the game will make.....so obviously they have an audience that isn't too offended by what they're doing.

    Then you advertise as such. Call it: Star Wars Casino Battlefront 2 for Rich People. Sell the game at $1000. Or whatever you want. Heck, sell the Super Titanium Deluxe Edition for $1000000. And make it 18+ as well.
    Honestly, this feels more and more about you not wanting to pay, and less and less about keeping kids away from slot machines.

    But don't tell me it's NOT pay to win when it is demonstrably PAY TO WIN just as in those mobile games I don't play because they are PAY TO WIN.
    no...it's 'pay to win fast'. Different.

    Also, don't tell me it's NOT GAMBLING when it definitely IS GAMBLING.
    It's not gambling cuz baseball cards.

    Not really, as long as you advertise as being such. Why the deception?
    Dude....if you advertised a game as being "1 hour long" and still charged $60 bucks...it wouldn't sell. People would consider it a ripoff. Yet, back in the day, ALL the games were like that. Obviously the definition of "ripoff" has evolved over the years, and now I'm saying you're taking it too far.

    Do you remember Crono Trigger? If you wanted to, you could beat it in 30 minutes flat too. Or you could take 30 hours with it. It was all up to you.
    Ok....so 'it's all up to you'. Great, we agree. Play fast, play slow, it's all up to you. Some people might choose to play 'the long way', but are also willing to pay extra for a boost. How does that diminish YOUR experience?

    Mainly because of the gambling non-gambling element in products marketed squarely at 13 year olds
    Stop with this....13 year olds don't have credit cards!!! An adult has to intervene in order for the 13 year old to spend any money. Yes, he can buy gift cards and use them online but he's limited by A) how much cash he has, and B) How often he can get to a store that sells gift cards. He can't go into debt. He can't blow off the mortgage payment to buy more lootboxes. And if he really is in a situation where he's spending "too much" on this stuff, then the overwhelming contributing factor is a lack of parental oversight. While that's sad, it's certainly not the job of the video game industry to sacrifice potential profits just to pick up the slack for a few bad parents.

    And of course the whales (read: vulnerables)
    Grown people making their own decisions is not a problem for anyone except those specific grown-ups. I simply don't believe that game makers are trying to "lure in" new gamers just to snatch $60 from them and not really care if they get pissed off after the fact over add-on transactions. That would completely undermine structure of profitability that drives the industry in the first place. The whole idea is to encourage repeat business. I flat out don't believe that there is some kind of agenda to simply screw over the unsuspecting noob with a disappointing product, bank whatever you can now, and fuck the future.

    If an adult is disappointed with a toy he bought....I'm not shedding any tears for him.
    Last edited by BananaStand; 11-17-2017 at 02:36 PM.
  45. #1095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    no...it's 'pay to win fast'. Different.
    LOL, Banana the troll strikes again
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  46. #1096
    Just went to pinch a loaf and was scrolling through my phone while I sat there. Saw an article about how EA has listened to the outrage and is changing how they deliver this new star wars game.

    Apparently pre-orders are shitty.

    Holy shit...the free market worked!!
    Last edited by BananaStand; 11-17-2017 at 03:18 PM.
  47. #1097
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Dude....we didn't have the internet. Video games were not mainstream enough to be advertised in prime time. If you wanted to know what was up, you needed to read the magazines. The only reason I knew Final Fantasy existed is because of Nintendo Power. It made me want to buy the game. I did end up buying the game. So....yeah, game makers benefited ALOT from that shit.
    You do understand, I assume, that Nintendo is just one publisher which also happened to be the dominant console maker back in the day right? What about all of the other devs? Did they have magazines too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    What does it cost to open the black box? If it's equal to the average of 50 memory cards, 600 broc & cheese, 250 tic tacs, and 100 polished stones. Then it seems pretty fair to me.
    Whatever it's cost, you'd be GAMBLING for your memory card. The Nile is also a river in Egypt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Whaaaaaaaaaaat???? You mean you made a purchase decision based on your own needs, preferences, and budget all under your own free will??? How the fuck did you do that with all these greedy corporations controlling your mind!!!???
    LOL. I'll bite.

    It wasn't thrown into my face. My progression was not hampered because I lacked it. It was not cut out from the game prior top release just to be readded as paid content later. They were upfront about it back then. It did not cost more than the game itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    This statement provides some insight into your flawed thinking. Playing video games is not an "accomplishment". You're playing with a toy.
    Exactly, but one which wants to manipulate you into dumping all your money into it, for no reason other than to keep playing with the toy. Don't throw in money, the toy becomes tough; throw in money, the toy becomes easy. The amounts of money are not children's candy prices either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Why? Who is getting hurt? You and Oskar keep saying how much money the game will make.....so obviously they have an audience that isn't too offended by what they're doing.
    An audience that doesn't KNOW what they are doing, banana. There is massive a difference.

    Ever heard of the frog in the boiling pot metaphor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Your use of the term "progress" suggests that you take your video games a little too seriously. They're not real Jack. Ok?
    The money you lose at them is very real. Thank you for slowly arriving at some sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    It's not gambling cuz baseball cards.
    Another false equivalency. Great.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Honestly, this feels more and more about you not wanting to pay, and less and less about keeping kids away from slot machines.
    Say it upfront and if I want I'll pay. Why the dishonesty? Why the bullshit? Why the insistence that gambling isn't gambling? Why the SAAS while insisting I pay for entry as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Well beanie babies don't actually 'do' anything. They exist to be collected. So in order to accomplish the goal of a complete collection, you did in fact need at least one of every specific beanie baby.
    You can collect them? Which means they have actual, intrinsic value right?

    [quote="Banana"]Well maybe you pirated it by word-of-mouth, but if you follow the chain backward, Konami got paid somehow./quote]



    I learned of it organically, so no, Nintendo didn't get paid on that one thing, as, you know, they owned Nintendo Power and not Konami.

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Also the word "hampered" implies that there is some verifiable minimum standard of progression speed in video games. There isn't. I've been playing Clash of Clans for 5 fuckin years and I'm still on town-hall level 9. I've spent more than a year just upgrading walls. It's a grind. But if someone spends money to buy gems and get to level 10 before me...so be it. I wouldn't say that my progress has been "hampred" by not spending money. I progressed through the game at a pace and investment total that best suited my needs. If the game didn't offer me that choice, then I would have simply played a different game.
    You play mobile games. I don't, because I despise the "free" mobile game accepted monetization practices. I would not want for full price console games to become like "free" mobile games, because, again, I PAID TO FUCKING PLAY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Throw in there the fact that I do not wants kids gambling (for memory cards, keeping in line with the analogy earlier which you found so fair), and then you get the entire argument for the millionth time.

    [quote="Banana"]Ok....so 'it's all up to you'. Great, we agree. Play fast, play slow, it's all up to you. Some people might choose to play 'the long way', but are also willing to pay extra for a boost. How does that diminish YOUR experience?
    /quote]

    Ever heard of multiplayer? PVP? That damned activision patent I just showed you? Why, oh enlightened banana, do you think the focus is so much on multiplayer battles nowadays? Combat prioritization, fuck story. Why do you think this is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Also the word "hampered" implies that there is some verifiable minimum standard of progression speed in video games. There isn't. I've been playing Clash of Clans for 5 fuckin years and I'm still on town-hall level 9. I've spent more than a year just upgrading walls. It's a grind. But if someone spends money to buy gems and get to level 10 before me...so be it. I wouldn't say that my progress has been "hampred" by not spending money. I progressed through the game at a pace and investment total that best suited my needs. If the game didn't offer me that choice, then I would have simply played a different game.
    There isn't. They just make any progress impossible. Here, a spreadsheet for you as an example.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dhQ/edit#gid=0

    [quote="Banana"]Why? Who is getting hurt? You and Oskar keep saying how much money the game will make.....so obviously they have an audience that isn't too offended by what they're doing./quote]

    Kids, gambling. People with gambling tendencies being exposed to gambling while others swearing up and down it isn't gambling. People who want to just play single player games with certain monopolized ips. People who buy the games expecting to play the game hitting grindwalls and paywalls. General game design is getting hurt too. I can keep going.

    [quote="Banana"]Stop with this....13 year olds don't have credit cards!!! An adult has to intervene in order for the 13 year old to spend any money. Yes, he can buy gift cards and use them online but he's limited by A) how much cash he has, and B) How often he can get to a store that sells gift cards. He can't go into debt. He can't blow off the mortgage payment to buy more lootboxes. And if he really is in a situation where he's spending "too much" on this stuff, then the overwhelming contributing factor is a lack of parental oversight. While that's sad, it's certainly not the job of the video game industry to sacrifice potential profits just to pick up the slack for a few bad parents./quote]

    I will stop when they stop targeting these games at kids. Need for Speed: Payback has lootboxes and progression hampering in it, for christ sakes. 2017 will go down in history as The Year of the Lootbox.


    I'm done bro. Keep trolling.
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  48. #1098
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Just went to pinch a loaf and was scrolling through my phone while I sat there. Saw an article about how EA has listened to the outrage and is changing how they deliver this new star wars game.

    Apparently pre-orders are shitty.

    Holy shit...the free market worked!!
    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...78#post2280878


    I see that you literally do not read posts nor reason
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  49. #1099
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...78#post2280878


    I see that you literally do not read posts nor reason
    Got no speakers on this PC man.

    And it kinda sounds like it is over...
  50. #1100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Got no speakers on this PC man.

    And it kinda sounds like it is over...
    Oh no no no. It's far from over.

    Today is launch day. So it's bombs away.

    http://www.metacritic.com/game/plays...battlefront-ii
    http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-...battlefront-ii
    http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/st...battlefront-ii

    https://www.slantmagazine.com/games/...battlefront-ii

    It's just begun.

    The problem is, as was discussed a million times already, Star Wars being such a huge IP it will sell no matter what. But there is enough of a shitstorm now for consideration, leading to them turning off money conversion entirely TEMPORARILY.
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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  51. #1101
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Did they have magazines too?
    Electronic Gaming Monthly was a thing back then. So, yes.

    Whatever it's cost, you'd be GAMBLING for your memory card. The Nile is also a river in Egypt.
    No you wouldn't. You'd be spending an average amount per transaction, and receiving an item from a population of items that have an average value equal to what you spent. Again...baseball cardzzzz!!!

    The google definition of gambling is to "take risky action in the hope of a desired result". There is nothing "risky" about buying something. Just because it might not be what you want, doesn't mean it's gambling. There's no risk. You can't LOSE.

    It wasn't thrown into my face.
    Aggressive advertising offends you? Crybaby

    My progression was not hampered because I lacked it.
    Was your progress enhanced because you had it? That's probably the way to describe it. "hampered" just isn't apt in this situation. That's just a word you're using cause you're a crybaby.

    It was not cut out from the game prior top release just to be readded as paid content later
    If it's cut out before release, then it's cut out before you buy it. Nothing was *taken* from you. Only a crybaby would feel that he's owed something he was never entitled to in the first place.

    They were upfront about it back then
    Do they need to be now? Clearly you're already quite well informed, so I'm not really sure what all this crybaby stuff is about.

    It did not cost more than the game itself.
    But they still sold it to kids right? Funny....that one doesn't make your list of gripe-comparisons to the 'good old days'.

    Exactly, but one which wants to manipulate you into dumping all your money into it, for no reason other than to keep playing with the toy. Don't throw in money, the toy becomes tough; throw in money, the toy becomes easy. The amounts of money are not children's candy prices either
    Tough or easy are questions of personal preference. Cheap or expensive are relative terms as well. So it sounds like a person should be able to determine a level of investment and level of difficulty that best suits them. You seem to be saying that everyone should want it cheap and easy, and that the game-makers should be required to provide it the way you personally enjoy. Crybaby stuff dude.

    An audience that doesn't KNOW what they are doing, banana. There is massive a difference.
    Do you know anyone in this audience? Is this REALLY a widespread problem? Anecdotes don't count. If this was really something that was happening, then the gaming industry would be losing customers left and right. An industry scaring off its own clientele is stupid, but still not illegal, or even immoral. It's just hopelessly stupid, which is why I simply don't believe that a double-digit billion dollar industry is actually doing this.

    Ever heard of the frog in the boiling pot metaphor?
    Well no one is being cooked to death, so it's a little bit of an extreme comparison. If someone gets into gaming and accepts that the culture includes loot boxes, so what? Why does someone need to be enlightened on "the good old days" in order to decide whether not they can enjoy the current gaming culture. And as I've pointed out extensively, "the good old days" weren't as good as you think they were.

    The money you lose at them is very real. Thank you for slowly arriving at some sense
    .
    I'm sorry....I need some help here. How do you "lose money" at these things. You get something every time you pay for something right? Do you ever pay money just to have the screen flash "you lose, here's nothing, better luck next time"

    Another false equivalency. Great.
    you're only claiming that it's a false equivalency because the cards are tangible and have some value in perpetuity. I completely deny that logic because it is OBVIOUS that something can have value, and be consumed. Food is an excellent example. I ate lunch today. It's fucking worthless to you. I can't touch it anymore. I can't sell it to anyone. But I got everything I needed and expected from it. So it was worth the money I paid for it.

    Baseball cards don't "do" anything. Video games actively provide entertainment. Just because the value of the card stays with the card, and the value of a video game is specific to the player, doesn't mean that one is gambling and one isn't. It's just a different way to consume value.

    Say it upfront and if I want I'll pay. Why the dishonesty? Why the bullshit?
    It's my understanding that the game isn't even out yet. And yet, you already know this. So I'm not sure why you're complaining about people not saying things "upfront". Exactly how were you deceived into a purchase decision if you're so well informed prior to release?

    Why the insistence that gambling isn't gambling?
    Cuz it aint. There's no 'risk'.

    Why the SAAS while insisting I pay for entry as well?
    This is just you bitching about high prices. Crybaby.

    You can collect them? Which means they have actual, intrinsic value right?
    Dude, stop this. Value can exist many different ways. Collectibles and Consumables are different. Sorry if that offends you, but you really need to get over it.

    You play mobile games. I don't, because I despise the "free" mobile game accepted monetization practices
    .
    LOL, ok then. How about you just make that a policy for ALL games, not just mobile. From now on, your rule will be "I don't play games I don't like". Then just go with that. Why try to force YOUR preferences onto the entire industry? Obviously, not everyone "despises" it the way you do.

    I would not want for full price console games to become like "free" mobile games, because, again, I PAID TO FUCKING PLAY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
    Obviously you didn't pay enough!! The people who make the game decide what you need to pay to have a certain experience. If you want that experience, you pay. You don't get to set your own price. You don't get to pay less and then demand maximum value! If people are willing to pay for the maximum experience, then there is a market there and there is no compelling reason to interfere with commerce. If some poor people get left out....so what. Video games are not a right!

    Throw in there the fact that I do not wants kids gambling
    Right....throw that in, cuz without it your argument is just a bunch of selfish belly-aching.

    Ever heard of multiplayer? PVP? That damned activision patent I just showed you? Why, oh enlightened banana, do you think the focus is so much on multiplayer battles nowadays? Combat prioritization, fuck story. Why do you think this is?
    So this really is just about jealousy. You can't compete against the folks willing to spend more, so you whine about it. C'mon dude.

    There isn't. They just make any progress impossible. Here, a spreadsheet for you as an example
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dhQ/edit#gid=0
    What is this? More belly-aching about how long and hard it is to get what you want??

    Kids, gambling.
    OMG give this up dude. Kids dont' have credit cards. And this really isn't any different than them buying pokemon cards.

    People with gambling tendencies being exposed to gambling while others swearing up and down it isn't gambling.
    Stop it. It's not the video game industry's problem to protect people from themselves. Haven't we had this conversation before? Violent video games didn't cause Columbine, and lootboxes aren't going to exacerbate gambling problems.

    People who want to just play single player games with certain monopolized ips.
    The box says right on it if it's a single player game or not.

    People who buy the games expecting to play the game hitting grindwalls and paywalls.
    Not a new thing dude.

    I will stop when they stop targeting these games at kids.
    Star Wars is a 40 year old franchise, you know that right?
  52. #1102
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    LOL, troll.

    I'm done feeding the troll, as I wrote above
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  53. #1103
    Definitely not trolling. Everything I posted was sincere.

    And now correct me if I'm wrong, but your position can be summed up like this....

    "The practice is wrong because it exposes children to gambling"

    Do I have that right? You don't want gambling marketed to kids, right?

    Yet you have no problem with a game whose object is to murder your opponent, being marketed to kids. Shoot your opponent dead with a gun kids, but don't touch slot machines.

    Aren't you a little embarrassed at the irony of that?
  54. #1104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    Definitely not trolling. Everything I posted was sincere.
    Of course. Yet first line you claim somehow EGM == Nintendo Power.

    Nintendo Power was first party. EGM was just a fucking magazine that covered gaming. How the fuck did they have anything to do with Konami is beyond me.

    And then you go on strawmanning and throwing more false equivalencies around, and yet claim to be serious.

    You cannot be this dense. Of course you are trolling

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    And now correct me if I'm wrong, but your position can be summed up like this....

    "The practice is wrong because it exposes children to gambling"

    Do I have that right? You don't want gambling marketed to kids, right?

    Yet you have no problem with a game whose object is to murder your opponent, being marketed to kids. Shoot your opponent dead with a gun kids, but don't touch slot machines.

    Aren't you a little embarrassed at the irony of that?
    This small thing, in the actual case of battlefront.

    http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis...Battlefront+2+

    And also this small thing, in regards to NFS Payback

    http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis...Need+For+Speed

    And this one, with more blood and killing

    http://www.esrb.org/ratings/Synopsis...d+Theft+Auto+V

    Do you spot a difference?




    Fun fact: none of these games tell prospective buyers upfront about having micropayments nor lootboxes. Like opening a cracker jack box.


    I will leave it up to you to guess which has which.



    P.S.

    Kids, gambling


    Now I'm truly done.
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    Cogito ergo sum

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  55. #1105
    TEEN
    Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language.
    So it is right there on the box then.....

    Where's the deception?

    The ESRB says gambling is ok to show to 13 year olds. Maybe your beef is with them and not EA?
  56. #1106
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    LOL

    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/...ope-nope-nope/

    Quote Originally Posted by Banana
    So it is right there on the box then.....

    Where's the deception?

    The ESRB says gambling is ok to show to 13 year olds. Maybe your beef is with them and not EA?
    Finally you are starting to make sense. That is the current pricess.

    I thought you said it wasn't gambling?
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  57. #1107
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    *Process


    Editing is more work now that the front end is broken
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  58. #1108
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    A higher level non-troll discussion about where we are now and where we are going.

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  59. #1109
    I was at gamestop over the weekend. Gave strong consideration to buying a PS4.

    Then I thought...what games would I get?

    I like Grand Theft Auto. They have #5. But wait...I already have #5 for PS3 at home. They have Call of Duty, I like Call of Duty. Though....I have played like...nine other call of duties in the last five years, and they were all pretty much the fucking same. Destiny 2 seems popular. Wait a minute...don't I have Destiny 1 at home, and barely played it? Yeah, I do.

    There's a God of War game....hmmm looks like more of the same button mashing from the last 4 games....which I already have.

    Dragon Age, DarkSiders, Final Fantasy, Killzone, Metal Gear, Gran Tourismo, Resident Evil, Ratchet & Clank, open world Batman games, and Lego [name any mildly popular franchise]....

    I've played ALL of these games many many many times already.

    IS THERE ANYTHING NEW??
  60. #1110
    Buy a PC?
  61. #1111
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Buy a PC?
    I went down that road a little bit in the early 00's. Too much worrying if each game is compatible with my graphics card. Too much installing and downloading of patches. Drivers....blech. I just wanna put the disc in and play. If it's even a little bit of work to make the game operate....then fuck it, I'm out

    Plus, isn't it just another medium for the same old shitty games?

    Which installment of Quake are they on now?
  62. #1112
    I get most of my games on Steam now. No discs, no going to the store and works reasonably well. About 1/8 games has a problem running on it, but not clear how much of that is my pc and how much is steam, and in any case there's usually a fix.
  63. #1113
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    Disregarding the fact that it's a pretty shitty time for buying a PC - DDR3&4 being twice the price they've been 6 months ago and graphics cards also getting more expensive because of crypto currency, it's really hard to justify a console once you've invested in a decent PC. I have everything hooked up to my PC. My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments. I have a couple of xbox controllers on the couch table that I can use to control pretty much everything with through Controller Companion ($4 on steam)
    You really don't need to worry about compatibility. Every game runs with every graphics card as long as it's from the past 8 years. I have a 970 and I run all the games that matter at 200fps/medium graphics. You can get away with a gtx 770 you're still comfortably above the specs of "next gen" consoles.
    There are maybe 3 games a year that are console exclusive that I miss out on, but they're not worth the price of a console that's just going to sit there doing nothing most of the time.

    If I were to build a gaming pc for a console price point right now it would be: 4460+mainboard+ram ~$150, gtx970 ~$150, seasonic 450w ~30, 250gig ssd: $80, plus a case from a dumpster - all used ldo. If you shop around you can probably get this for closer to $300 and it's going to annihilate a ps4.
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  64. #1114
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    "My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments."

    oskar confirmed cool
  65. #1115
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    Was that not abundantly obvious already...
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  66. #1116
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I was at gamestop over the weekend. Gave strong consideration to buying a PS4.

    Then I thought...what games would I get?

    I like Grand Theft Auto. They have #5. But wait...I already have #5 for PS3 at home. They have Call of Duty, I like Call of Duty. Though....I have played like...nine other call of duties in the last five years, and they were all pretty much the fucking same. Destiny 2 seems popular. Wait a minute...don't I have Destiny 1 at home, and barely played it? Yeah, I do.

    There's a God of War game....hmmm looks like more of the same button mashing from the last 4 games....which I already have.

    Dragon Age, DarkSiders, Final Fantasy, Killzone, Metal Gear, Gran Tourismo, Resident Evil, Ratchet & Clank, open world Batman games, and Lego [name any mildly popular franchise]....

    I've played ALL of these games many many many times already.

    IS THERE ANYTHING NEW??
    Horizon Zero Dawn, Bloodborne, The Last Guardian are all new IPs and exclusive to PS4. Uncharted 4 is also very very good but you'll probably hate it because it has a 4 in the title
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  67. #1117
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Disregarding the fact that it's a pretty shitty time for buying a PC - DDR3&4 being twice the price they've been 6 months ago and graphics cards also getting more expensive because of crypto currency, it's really hard to justify a console once you've invested in a decent PC. I have everything hooked up to my PC. My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments. I have a couple of xbox controllers on the couch table that I can use to control pretty much everything with through Controller Companion ($4 on steam)
    You really don't need to worry about compatibility. Every game runs with every graphics card as long as it's from the past 8 years. I have a 970 and I run all the games that matter at 200fps/medium graphics. You can get away with a gtx 770 you're still comfortably above the specs of "next gen" consoles.
    There are maybe 3 games a year that are console exclusive that I miss out on, but they're not worth the price of a console that's just going to sit there doing nothing most of the time.

    If I were to build a gaming pc for a console price point right now it would be: 4460+mainboard+ram ~$150, gtx970 ~$150, seasonic 450w ~30, 250gig ssd: $80, plus a case from a dumpster - all used ldo. If you shop around you can probably get this for closer to $300 and it's going to annihilate a ps4.
    Yeah it's rough going if you need a GPU or ram right now.

    PC is my main gaming rig but I also have a PS4, xbone and a switch and all of them do get used (I have two teenage boys in the house as well) so I'm very fortunate not to miss out on any exclusives
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  68. #1118
    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    Horizon Zero Dawn, Bloodborne, The Last Guardian are all new IPs and exclusive to PS4.
    Are they good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    Uncharted 4 is also very very good but you'll probably hate it because it has a 4 in the title
    I have at least 1 and 2. Maybe 3. Is 4 worth investing in a new console?

    Also, I'm being sincere when I say I really don't know how many of these games I already have. This is kind of the problem. I have nearly 100 PS3 games that I either haven't played, or don't really remember playing. So I'm wondering if buying a PS4 and the new call of duty game will be significantly more enjoyable than than just re-playing the 5 call of duties that I already have.
  69. #1119
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    My stereo, the TV, all my instruments - midi keyboard, guitar, bass are always hooked up to my soundcard and run through amp sims and virtual instruments. I have a couple of xbox controllers on the couch table that I can use to control pretty much everything with through Controller Companion
    Not many women coming through your place, huh?
  70. #1120
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Are they good?
    Horizon - would have been an easy GOTY 2017 if it didn't come out 3 days before zelda
    Bloodborne - won several GOTY awards in 2015
    Last guardian - picked up a few GOTY nominations, not as good as the other two but still fun

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I have at least 1 and 2. Maybe 3. Is 4 worth investing in a new console?

    Also, I'm being sincere when I say I really don't know how many of these games I already have. This is kind of the problem. I have nearly 100 PS3 games that I either haven't played, or don't really remember playing. So I'm wondering if buying a PS4 and the new call of duty game will be significantly more enjoyable than than just re-playing the 5 call of duties that I already have.
    I still think uncharted 2 is the best of them all, but I very much enjoyed 3&4 and 4 is better than 3 imo

    For opinions on call of duty you'd have to ask my eldest, he's the big COD fan in our house
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  71. #1121
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  72. #1122
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    Not many women coming through your place, huh?


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  73. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    [something, something] your mom[/FONT][/COLOR]
    Your mom cums whilst at my place.
  74. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Also, I'm being sincere when I say I really don't know how many of these games I already have. This is kind of the problem. I have nearly 100 PS3 games that I either haven't played, or don't really remember playing. So I'm wondering if buying a PS4 and the new call of duty game will be significantly more enjoyable than than just re-playing the 5 call of duties that I already have.
    Maybe you just aren't that into gaming anymore? Buying the latest shit may give you the excitement back for a little bit but it's not the problem.
  75. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Maybe you just aren't that into gaming anymore? Buying the latest shit may give you the excitement back for a little bit but it's not the problem.
    That's what I was thinking. Though there are some games that just 'addict' me and I'll play non-stop for a couple weeks, then I'll stop playing for months. Like a binge-addiction. I just don't wanna binge on the same old shit anymore. And a lot of the latest games are really just more polished versions of the same old shit.

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