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  1. #1201
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey
    It seems like you're getting super-defensive on other people's behalf. If you have a dog in this fight, then what is it? How were YOU hurt by this practice?
    This is my dog in the fight. The monetization strategies have changed the industry completely, and for the worse. Instead of fixing the game, the fixate on adding transactions. This is the one example that affects me the most, but it's all over. It's becoming the norm. And they are making use of ignorance of the masses, mostly younger uns, to pass this through.



    So there will come the point that you just have to back off from the games you actually love. It's about turning players into payers nowadays. Fuck it
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  2. #1202
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    it's that they lied to me, and the motivator can be directly seen as trying to get me to pay more into their shtick
    It's only seen that way by you and your vocal faction of digital crusaders. I've presented potential alternate motivations multiple times in this thread. I'll repeat of them in case you missed it....

    The XP throttling only affected players attempting to maximize their personal gains, while minimizing game play. Specifically re-playing the same events in succession, or only playing for short sessions resulted in less rewards than someone who indulges in the full variety of the gameplay for longer periods of time. In other words, the company gave preferential treatment to its better customers.

    The only way the throttling would impact you, is if you're actively trying to exploit the XP system for maximum gains (ie farming the shortest and easiest tasks). I can totally see why the developers would frown upon that since it's a lot better for their gaming community if you participate in other stuff.

    Maybe they did it cause it made the game BETTER for everyone except the people who were only trying to be dicks in the first place.

    If you like being lied to just to get you to pay more into something, go ahead.
    Again, you don't know the motivation. And not everyone was lied to. The only people who were lied to, were the people playing like ass-holes.

    I will never support such underhanded business practices;
    So you don't buy milk?

    This one example marks one of the first times that a AAA game has outright lied to its customer base.
    Wasn't one of the first lines in the video you linked about how Mr. Jimquisition is all pissy about the constant "bullshit" in games? How is this a "first" then?

    And the one thing they lied about ties directly to their monetization strategy of that particular game. It's as clear cut as can be
    It's also tied to the social enjoyability of everyone else in the game. If you've actually played it....that fact would be more clear cut to you.

    Mine was fleeced, as in "getting fleeced", which dictionary.com says is "to deprive of money or belongings by fraud, hoax, or the like; swindle". And that is exactly what they did.
    Hmmm, not exactly.

    Because it's all a ruse in order to get you to buy stuff ingame in a game you already bought. It is larger than Destiny.
    I assume this refers to the DLC "lockout" problem? Again....WHO CARES? And I don't mean that rhetorically. I want you to actually find a person, or at least describe a plausible type of person who would be negatively impacted by this? The only thing that was pulled back from the original game were a handful of extremely high-level REPLAYS that yielded cosmetic rewards. So what? That only impacts you if...

    1) You enjoy the game enough to delve deeply into it's post game content.
    2) You enjoy the game enough to seek out every single achievement and loot reward available
    3) You enjoy the game enough to care about rewards whose benefits are solely cosmetic.
    4) However, you DON'T enjoy the game enough to spend an extra $20 for an expansion pack that offers a FUCKTON more of the things you love in #1-#3.
    5) And you were late to the party and haven't yet had enough time to exhaust this game before the pinnacle end-game content was locked out.

    If you're that person. You are fucked. You have a right to be disappointed. However, for anyone who fails to meet even one of the above criteria....you're fine.

    Now, the game systematically slows down your xp gain but doesn't tell you it's doing so.
    Only if you play like a douchebag

    Again, why the lies?
    It's a more customer-friendly way of saying "don't be a douchebag"

    Stories like this are becoming far too common Now
    Dude....this is the most tragically ironic thing you've EVER posted. Here you are, shedding a tear for the reckless youth that squandered their paper route money and stole dad's credit card to fund an online obsession. Here you are shaking your head at the all too common story of and exploited young mind.

    Here you are, saying these things, on a site dedicated to online poker.

    If a person could be killed by irony...I'd be stone cold dead right now.
  3. #1203
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    This is my dog in the fight. The monetization strategies have changed the industry completely, and for the worse.
    Says YOU!! Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not worse. For the last time...economics do not cowtow to your whiny self-indulgent preferences!! A market exists for this type of monetization practice.....so who are you to judge it? People will pay what they want to pay for the things they want to have. If they can't get the things they want for the price they want, they won't buy it. Period. And the market will decide what is right or wrong.

    Also, as I've pointed out you exhaustively, the industry has LOST revenue streams that it used to have. So get used to the idea of being introduced to some innovative monetization strategies now and then. Not all of them will be gleaming examples of expert commerce. There may be some bumps in the road, but it should be left to the market to smooth that out. Example: I'll bet my house that EA's next Star Wars game will be drastically changed from this latest installation.

    Instead of fixing the game,
    Ugh...this reeks of entitlement. Why is the game "broken"?

    the fixate on adding transactions.
    Prove this

    This is the one example that affects me the most, but it's all over. It's becoming the norm.
    So what if it becomes the norm? If gamers play along....then it's FINE. If they don't, then the market will force the industry to change.

    And they are making use of ignorance of the masses,
    Right Jack, you're just one of the enlightened few huh?

    mostly younger uns, to pass this through.
    Hang on.....give me a second.....I rolled my eyes too hard

    Are you talking about the young-uns who don't have credit cards and have no way to participate in this exploitative microtransaction market? What's passing through them?

    If you're talking about young, but old enough to have a credit card, then you're talking about adults. And adults can make their own decisions about what to buy.

    So there will come the point that you just have to back off from the games you actually love.
    So your limited investment has a limited return!!!??? Holy shit!! That's....just.....unimaginable!!!!!
  4. #1204
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    It's only seen that way by you and your vocal faction of digital crusaders. I've presented potential alternate motivations multiple times in this thread. I'll repeat of them in case you missed it....

    The XP throttling only affected players attempting to maximize their personal gains, while minimizing game play. Specifically re-playing the same events in succession, or only playing for short sessions resulted in less rewards than someone who indulges in the full variety of the gameplay for longer periods of time. In other words, the company gave preferential treatment to its better customers.

    The only way the throttling would impact you, is if you're actively trying to exploit the XP system for maximum gains (ie farming the shortest and easiest tasks). I can totally see why the developers would frown upon that since it's a lot better for their gaming community if you participate in other stuff.

    Maybe they did it cause it made the game BETTER for everyone except the people who were only trying to be dicks in the first place.
    So, you telling me I should play the game the way you want me to, and if I don't I'm a dick?

    A very easy way to stop this exploit would be to DISPLAY THE CORRECT EARNING VALUES ON THE FUCKING SCREEN. Oh shit, turns out they didn't until the outcry. So, ... did they actually want you to do this by deceiving you into thinking this was the best way to XP grind? Did the actually want you to "try to be dicks in the first place"?

    And then they increased the prices on everything. Hmmmm, so it only affected those who "played like assholes"? What about the others, who will be affected by the raised prices?

    By your own logic, does this not affect everybody, as the fix does affect everybody and not just who "attempted to maximize their personal gains, while minimizing game play"?

    Paywalls, grindwalls, those are things Banana

    Things that make you go ummmm ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    Again, you don't know the motivation. And not everyone was lied to. The only people who were lied to, were the people playing like ass-holes.
    Things that make you LOL

    Why put it in the game if you don't want me to play it? I assume that I can play any game I bought any way I please. Or do I have to play it the way you want/woudl like me to, Banana?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    So you don't buy milk?
    Are you still comparing brake fluid and pumpkin? Wasn't it you who said we had a governmental regulatory body that handled this shit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    This one example marks one of the first times that a AAA game has outright lied to its customer base.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Wasn't one of the first lines in the video you linked about how Mr. Jimquisition is all pissy about the constant "bullshit" in games? How is this a "first" then?
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    I assume this refers to the DLC "lockout" problem? Again....WHO CARES? And I don't mean that rhetorically. I want you to actually find a person, or at least describe a plausible type of person who would be negatively impacted by this? The only thing that was pulled back from the original game were a handful of extremely high-level REPLAYS that yielded cosmetic rewards. So what? That only impacts you if...


    1) You enjoy the game enough to delve deeply into it's post game content.
    2) You enjoy the game enough to seek out every single achievement and loot reward available
    3) You enjoy the game enough to care about rewards whose benefits are solely cosmetic.
    4) However, you DON'T enjoy the game enough to spend an extra $20 for an expansion pack that offers a FUCKTON more of the things you love in #1-#3.
    5) And you were late to the party and haven't yet had enough time to exhaust this game before the pinnacle end-game content was locked out.

    If you're that person. You are fucked. You have a right to be disappointed. However, for anyone who fails to meet even one of the above criteria....you're fine.
    Oh, that one again
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though.
    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...97#post2280897

    What exactly is your argument, Banana? Because you are somehow making even less sense than before. And that is saying something.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Only if you play like a douchebag
    Sure, and then why doesn't the game just tell you that you are earning less? Even the much maligned battlefront II simply told you when you hit the cap. Again, why put it in the game if you don't want me to play it? I assume that I can play any game I have any way I please. Or do I have to play it the way you want me to, Banana?

    Oh, and THIS

    Last weekend, we disabled a scaling mechanism that adjusted XP gains up and down without reflecting those adjustments in the UI. Our intention was to keep slower-paced activities as rewarding as high intensity grinding without confusing variations in displayed XP values, but the silent nature of the mechanic betrayed the expectation of transparency that you have for Destiny 2.

    We were able to disable the system with a server-side change, but a new solution is now needed to rebalance XP in Destiny 2. We have begun that work, and will continue to provide updates to you about timelines and specifics. The values coded into our website API are being updated today (and may already have been as you read this post) to reflect the removal of this scaling mechanism. In a future update, we intend to link these internal and display-only values together for greater consistency, and to ensure that when changes are made they are accurately reflected everywhere we report them.

    We already see that the newly adjusted 160K XP per level value means that leveling is too slow for some activities, and we have begun the process of collecting data and recalibrating XP earn rates to improve them as quickly as possible.

    XP boosts, including both consumable items and passive bonuses like the Well Rested 300% bonus, were always applied after this system and never resulted in early slowing of XP. They should be unchanged by the disabling of this system and will continue to provide their stated increase in XP gain.

    Expect to see a lot of conversation from our team on this front, as XP rewards are updated and brought back in-line with player expectations.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    It's a more customer-friendly way of saying "don't be a douchebag"
    So customer friendly they have to apologize, backtrack and face the music for it

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Dude....this is the most tragically ironic thing you've EVER posted. Here you are, shedding a tear for the reckless youth that squandered their paper route money and stole dad's credit card to fund an online obsession. Here you are shaking your head at the all too common story of and exploited young mind.

    Here you are, saying these things, on a site dedicated to online poker.

    If a person could be killed by irony...I'd be stone cold dead right now.
    Yes, poker players tend to exhibit less empathy than the general populace

    But still, life ≠ a poker game despite what you may have been led to believe. Does being a poker player I have to not employ any kind of morals for any decision in my life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    Says YOU!! Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not worse. For the last time...economics do not cowtow to your whiny self-indulgent preferences!! A market exists for this type of monetization practice.....so who are you to judge it? People will pay what they want to pay for the things they want to have. If they can't get the things they want for the price they want, they won't buy it. Period. And the market will decide what is right or wrong.

    Also, as I've pointed out you exhaustively, the industry has LOST revenue streams that it used to have. So get used to the idea of being introduced to some innovative monetization strategies now and then. Not all of them will be gleaming examples of expert commerce. There may be some bumps in the road, but it should be left to the market to smooth that out. Example: I'll bet my house that EA's next Star Wars game will be drastically changed from this latest installation.
    Ugh. Your "lost" revenue streams included cables and EGM somehow. Cables could only at most benefit first parties, but it was all standards. How many Activision/EA/Ubisoft branded HDMI cables have you seen around? Saying EGM was a benefiting the games industry was akin to Top Gear being a part of Mercedes Benz somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    Ugh...this reeks of entitlement. Why is the game "broken"?
    You clearly didn't see the video in the post you quoted. Nor ever played GTA Online. There is a whole community dedicated to GTA Glitches, just as a FYI

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    Prove this
    You increase the grind for something you can instead buy immediately for money. Prove me wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    Hang on.....give me a second.....I rolled my eyes too hard

    Are you talking about the young-uns who don't have credit cards and have no way to participate in this exploitative microtransaction market? What's passing through them?

    If you're talking about young, but old enough to have a credit card, then you're talking about adults. And adults can make their own decisions about what to buy.
    The dude, in the video you apparently did watch, was 13 years old when he started his spending spree. I wonder how he did this? As in, I'm genuinely curious

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    So your limited investment has a limited return!!!??? Holy shit!! That's....just.....unimaginable!!!!!
    Then I play with my limited investment and then I back the fuck off. Why the underhanded tactics to squeeze more money from me? Again, just so we skip your next bullshit argument

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though.
    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...97#post2280897

    Keep trolling. I'm done w/ your entertainment. Enjoy your game, as I told you 3 times now
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  5. #1205
    Jack Sawyer's Avatar
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    I can't edit, so I have to double post, this should be the above post

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    It's only seen that way by you and your vocal faction of digital crusaders. I've presented potential alternate motivations multiple times in this thread. I'll repeat of them in case you missed it....

    The XP throttling only affected players attempting to maximize their personal gains, while minimizing game play. Specifically re-playing the same events in succession, or only playing for short sessions resulted in less rewards than someone who indulges in the full variety of the gameplay for longer periods of time. In other words, the company gave preferential treatment to its better customers.

    The only way the throttling would impact you, is if you're actively trying to exploit the XP system for maximum gains (ie farming the shortest and easiest tasks). I can totally see why the developers would frown upon that since it's a lot better for their gaming community if you participate in other stuff.

    Maybe they did it cause it made the game BETTER for everyone except the people who were only trying to be dicks in the first place.
    So, you telling me I should play the game the way you want me to, and if I don't I'm a dick?

    A very easy way to stop this exploit would be to DISPLAY THE CORRECT EARNING VALUES ON THE FUCKING SCREEN. Oh shit, turns out they didn't until the outcry. So, ... did they actually want you to do this by deceiving you into thinking this was the best way to XP grind? Did the actually want you to "try to be dicks in the first place"?

    And then they increased the prices on everything. Hmmmm, so it only affected those who "played like assholes"? What about the others, who will be affected by the raised prices?

    By your own logic, does this not affect everybody, as the fix does affect everybody and not just who "attempted to maximize their personal gains, while minimizing game play"?

    Paywalls, grindwalls, those are things Banana

    Things that make you go ummmm ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Again, you don't know the motivation. And not everyone was lied to. The only people who were lied to, were the people playing like ass-holes.
    Things that make you LOL

    Why put it in the game if you don't want me to play it? I assume that I can play any game I bought any way I please. Or do I have to play it the way you want/woudl like me to, Banana?

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    So you don't buy milk?
    Are you still comparing brake fluid and pumpkin? Wasn't it you who said we had a governmental regulatory body that handled this shit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    This one example marks one of the first times that a AAA game has outright lied to its customer base.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Wasn't one of the first lines in the video you linked about how Mr. Jimquisition is all pissy about the constant "bullshit" in games? How is this a "first" then?
    The first one with an outright lie of a game mechanic that got caught, yes

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    I assume this refers to the DLC "lockout" problem? Again....WHO CARES? And I don't mean that rhetorically. I want you to actually find a person, or at least describe a plausible type of person who would be negatively impacted by this? The only thing that was pulled back from the original game were a handful of extremely high-level REPLAYS that yielded cosmetic rewards. So what? That only impacts you if...


    1) You enjoy the game enough to delve deeply into it's post game content.
    2) You enjoy the game enough to seek out every single achievement and loot reward available
    3) You enjoy the game enough to care about rewards whose benefits are solely cosmetic.
    4) However, you DON'T enjoy the game enough to spend an extra $20 for an expansion pack that offers a FUCKTON more of the things you love in #1-#3.
    5) And you were late to the party and haven't yet had enough time to exhaust this game before the pinnacle end-game content was locked out.

    If you're that person. You are fucked. You have a right to be disappointed. However, for anyone who fails to meet even one of the above criteria....you're fine.
    Oh, that one again
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though.
    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...97#post2280897

    What exactly is your argument, Banana? Because you are somehow making even less sense than before. And that is saying something.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Only if you play like a douchebag
    Sure, and then why doesn't the game just tell you that you are earning less? Even the much maligned battlefront II simply told you when you hit the cap. Again, why put it in the game if you don't want me to play it? I assume that I can play any game I have any way I please. Or do I have to play it the way you want me to, Banana?

    Oh, and THIS

    Last weekend, we disabled a scaling mechanism that adjusted XP gains up and down without reflecting those adjustments in the UI. Our intention was to keep slower-paced activities as rewarding as high intensity grinding without confusing variations in displayed XP values, but the silent nature of the mechanic betrayed the expectation of transparency that you have for Destiny 2.

    We were able to disable the system with a server-side change, but a new solution is now needed to rebalance XP in Destiny 2. We have begun that work, and will continue to provide updates to you about timelines and specifics. The values coded into our website API are being updated today (and may already have been as you read this post) to reflect the removal of this scaling mechanism. In a future update, we intend to link these internal and display-only values together for greater consistency, and to ensure that when changes are made they are accurately reflected everywhere we report them.

    We already see that the newly adjusted 160K XP per level value means that leveling is too slow for some activities, and we have begun the process of collecting data and recalibrating XP earn rates to improve them as quickly as possible.

    XP boosts, including both consumable items and passive bonuses like the Well Rested 300% bonus, were always applied after this system and never resulted in early slowing of XP. They should be unchanged by the disabling of this system and will continue to provide their stated increase in XP gain.

    Expect to see a lot of conversation from our team on this front, as XP rewards are updated and brought back in-line with player expectations.
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    It's a more customer-friendly way of saying "don't be a douchebag"
    So customer friendly they have to apologize, backtrack and face the music for it

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Dude....this is the most tragically ironic thing you've EVER posted. Here you are, shedding a tear for the reckless youth that squandered their paper route money and stole dad's credit card to fund an online obsession. Here you are shaking your head at the all too common story of and exploited young mind.

    Here you are, saying these things, on a site dedicated to online poker.

    If a person could be killed by irony...I'd be stone cold dead right now.
    Yes, poker players tend to exhibit less empathy than the general populace

    But still, life ≠ a poker game despite what you may have been led to believe. Does being a poker player I have to not employ any kind of morals for any decision in my life?

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Says YOU!! Maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not worse. For the last time...economics do not cowtow to your whiny self-indulgent preferences!! A market exists for this type of monetization practice.....so who are you to judge it? People will pay what they want to pay for the things they want to have. If they can't get the things they want for the price they want, they won't buy it. Period. And the market will decide what is right or wrong.

    Also, as I've pointed out you exhaustively, the industry has LOST revenue streams that it used to have. So get used to the idea of being introduced to some innovative monetization strategies now and then. Not all of them will be gleaming examples of expert commerce. There may be some bumps in the road, but it should be left to the market to smooth that out. Example: I'll bet my house that EA's next Star Wars game will be drastically changed from this latest installation.
    Ugh. Your "lost" revenue streams included cables and EGM somehow. Cables could only at most benefit first parties, but it was all standard, meaning you could buy cables branded RCA or whatever and these would function fine. You were not locked in in anyway. Just curious: how many Activision/EA/Ubisoft branded HDMI cables have you seen around?

    Also, saying EGM was a benefiting the games industry was akin to Top Gear being a part of Mercedes Benz somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Ugh...this reeks of entitlement. Why is the game "broken"?
    You clearly didn't see the video in the post you quoted. Nor ever played GTA Online. There is a whole community dedicated to GTA Glitches, just as a FYI

    I'm entitled to have some semblance of service for something I pay for, yes.

    Do you not believe they should fix bugs in a game? Have you only ever played glitch and bug-free games?

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand
    Prove this
    You increase the grind for something you can instead buy immediately for money. 1+1=2 banana. Or is that too difficult for you? Why didn't they instead lower the grind for it, or just leave it as is? Why did they err, and this the collective "them" will always do, is err in the side of "more grind"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    Hang on.....give me a second.....I rolled my eyes too hard

    Are you talking about the young-uns who don't have credit cards and have no way to participate in this exploitative microtransaction market? What's passing through them?

    If you're talking about young, but old enough to have a credit card, then you're talking about adults. And adults can make their own decisions about what to buy.
    The dude, in the video you apparently did watch, was 13 years old when he started his spending spree. I wonder how he did this? As in, I'm genuinely curious. He even got a job and spent it all on this shit. Oh, to be young again

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    So your limited investment has a limited return!!!??? Holy shit!! That's....just.....unimaginable!!!!!
    Then I play with my limited investment and then I back the fuck off. Why the underhanded tactics to squeeze more money from me? Again, just so we skip your next bullshit argument

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
    No, I don't. I bought every single DLC there was to buy for Mass Effect 2 & 3 for instance. Didn't buy the one DLC 1 had though.
    https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...97#post2280897

    Ok, now keep trolling. I'm done w/ your entertainment. Enjoy your game, as I told you 3 times now
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


    Cogito ergo sum

    VHS is like a book? and a book is like a stack of kindles.
    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  6. #1206
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    So, you telling me I should play the game the way you want me to, and if I don't I'm a dick?
    The game is clearly meant for a social, collaborative audience. If you choose not to participate in that way, then it's not outrageous for you to expect a diminished gaming experience.

    A very easy way to stop this exploit would be to DISPLAY THE CORRECT EARNING VALUES ON THE FUCKING SCREEN.
    If it did that...it would have to provide a complex explanation about diminishing xp returns. Instead, they chose to just bury that info and trusted that most people will opt to play the game in a way that will be completely unaffected by the throttling. Is that the greatest thing ever? No. Would it have been better if they didn't do it. Maybe. But in the grand scheme of things, I can forgive this relatively minor thing. If you feel differently, because you're an ass-hole with a hair-trigger boycott button....you're entitled to that opinion.

    And then they increased the prices on everything. Hmmmm, so it only affected those who "played like assholes"? What about the others, who will be affected by the raised prices?
    No one complained about the pace of play or frequency of rewards. So when the throttling was removed, they re-balanced the game to maintain the same, or similar pace of play and frequency of rewards. I have ZERO problems with this.

    By your own logic, does this not affect everybody, as the fix does affect everybody and not just who "attempted to maximize their personal gains, while minimizing game play"?
    Fine, but if we're gonna play that game, then the XP throttling was affecting everybody too. But if we're gonna look at it that way, then for most people, the effect was beneficial. they gained XP faster than the dick-heads. So when the beneficial throttling was removed, they increased the XP total to compensate. Again, this just represents a re-balancing of the game to keep it at a pace and frequency that everyone seems to already enjoy.

    Paywalls, grindwalls, those are things Banana
    SOOOOOOOOOOOOO WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT?????????????

    If playing the game is fun, then grinding shouldn't be a problem. If playing the game is not fun...then why do you want the reward on the other side of the grindwall?? Just turn it off and play something else!!

    BTW - go play Final Fantasy 1 for the original NES (not some later port of the game). Then come back and bitch at me about grindwalls. Back in my day we would grind for months....in 18 inches of snow.....with no shoes....uphill both ways!

    Why put it in the game if you don't want me to play it? I assume that I can play any game I bought any way I please. Or do I have to play it the way you want/woudl like me to, Banana?
    Again, play the game any way you like. However, I really don't have a problem if the game chooses to provide diminishing rewards for repetitive actions.

    Are you still comparing brake fluid and pumpkin? Wasn't it you who said we had a governmental regulatory body that handled this shit?
    The brake fluid salesman, and the pumpkin farmer are BOTH lying to you. So why only boycott one of them?

    The first one with an outright lie of a game mechanic that got caught, yes
    False. Google "Nintendo Power Glove Commercial". Unfortunately we didn't have face book back then for people to share their disappointment at the fact that they couldn't swing their arm in their living room, and have it translate into Little Mac throwing an uppercut into Mike Tyson's chicklets. But I assure you.....people were plenty pissed.

    What exactly is your argument, Banana?
    I wanna know WHO, specifically, you're defending? Whom did Bungie victimize? Who has actually incurred damages as a result of this deception?

    So customer friendly they have to apologize, backtrack and face the music for it
    Meh, typical public-relations firefighting. Nothing in that statement is really compelling. And I'll reiterate, I believe that there is actually a 50/50 chance that Bungie set this up....outcry and all....ON PURPOSE. I mean, go back and look at your buddy Jimquisition's video.....85% of it is stunning screenshots and cinematics from the game. It's practically an 8 minute advertisement for Bungie!!!!

    Any fair-minded person will look at that story and say "huh, that sounds like a minor offense, and it's already fixed. Furthermore, seems like folks in that community are paying attention, so it's unlikely there will be any further shenanigans." I can't believe that there is any materially significant population of people out there who were very interested in buying Destiny 2 and now are totally turned off. If anything there are more people who were NOT very interested in buying Destiny 2, who are now considering it.

    But still, life ≠ a poker game despite what you may have been led to believe. Does being a poker player I have to not employ any kind of morals for any decision in my life?
    You missed the point. Online poker got murdered on Black Friday all because some super-conservative dick holes thought it was too easy for little kids to gamble. Too many horror stories of kids blowing mom's credit card on poker stars.

    I've actually seen episodes of sitcoms about it. So don't tell me that the online poker horror stories aren't "too common"

    I can't say for certain, but I'm sure if I dig deeply enough into your posting history, I'll find a quote of you denouncing the US Government's actions to shut down online poker. Maybe there isn't because you don't live in the US. But even so, the diminished player pool most definitely affected you. And I'm sure it's not affecting you in a way that you're happy about.

    So when they took away something in order to keep it from kids....you were unhappy.
    Now you WANT them to take something away, in order to keep it from kids.

    See the hypocrisy? The only difference between the two opinions is whether or not you happen to like the thing being taken away.

    Ugh. Your "lost" revenue streams included cables and EGM somehow. Cables could only at most benefit first parties, but it was all standard, meaning you could buy cables branded RCA or whatever and these would function fine. You were not locked in in anyway. Just curious: how many Activision/EA/Ubisoft branded HDMI cables have you seen around?
    OMFG, I explained this to you. You can go to a movie theater and buy popcorn. The cost, revenue, and profit of that popcorn is kept entirely by the cinema. But at the same time.....the exorbitant price is there to benefit the movie studio, even though they never see a dime of the popcorn money.

    Don't quote me another video about the $60 myth. Because it has nothing to do with what I'm saying here. Pay attention.....gamers have resisted....if not outright refused....to pay more than $60 per game. That means the revenue per game is FIXED at $60 per game. (nevermind the add ons, lootboxes and dlc shit. Just keep the model simple for this illustration)

    Still paying attention? There is a finite revenue stream of $60 per game. Virtually ALL of that money goes to the game developers, not the stores. The only way the stores stay in business, is to sell you grossly marked-up popcorn in the form of cables, controllers, and other shit. If the add-ons were priced reasonably, with a fair profit attached, then the store wouldn't be able to stay in business. They would need additional revenue, which means they would have to take a cut of the game sales. The only way for that to happen is for either A) the game makers to give up some of their profits, or B) you the consumer to pay more. And we've already stated how the consumer flat out refuses to pay more.

    So....now do you see....how when you buy accessories....you're helping to pad the profit margins of game developers? If you didn't buy those accessories to keep the stores in business, then the developers would have to start paying to keep the stores in business.

    If you dont' get this.....then re-enroll in the 9th grade.

    Also, saying EGM was a benefiting the games industry was akin to Top Gear being a part of Mercedes Benz somehow.
    Go to the movies. Buy some M&M's And think abotu how the benefits Warner Brothers. I promise you the answer is there.

    Do you not believe they should fix bugs in a game? Have you only ever played glitch and bug-free games?
    Castlevania II

    You increase the grind for something you can instead buy immediately for money. 1+1=2 banana. Or is that too difficult for you? Why didn't they instead lower the grind for it, or just leave it as is? Why did they err, and this the collective "them" will always do, is err in the side of "more grind"?
    I think you have to accept that some users are willing to pay for extras. And those people are entitled to an enhanced experience. If all they are doing is getting immediate gratification for something that's easy to do anyway....it diminishes the incentive to buy. I don't see why you would expect them to do that.

    I can see why maybe you have a beef if they are increasing the incentive to buy. But you know...you can always just think with your adult brain and make a conscious choice about how to spend your money. I find it hard to believe that a video game is actually capable of "squeezing" you. If you really feel that you're that vulnerable....maybe you should ask your mommy to lock up your credit cards for you.

    The dude, in the video you apparently did watch, was 13 years old when he started his spending spree. I wonder how he did this? As in, I'm genuinely curious. He even got a job and spent it all on this shit. Oh, to be young again
    Where were his parents? And if he earned the money at a job....what the fuck do you care what he does with it?

    Then I play with my limited investment and then I back the fuck off. Why the underhanded tactics to squeeze more money from me?
    Why is a video game able to manipulate you so easily? And who said it's underhanded? It seems to me that the DLC-lockout problem that we've discussed here actually affected NO ONE. All they did was fray the edges of the main game in order to seamlessly integrate the DLC. That makes tons of sense!! The DLC contains higher levels, more stuff, a new campaign, and a fuckton of other shit for fans of the game.

    There is ALOT more to the DLC than just re-accessing that lost prestige-level replay. So citing this 'lockout' as the only reason someone would buy the DLC is just......it's intellectually lazy Jack. You really should be smarter than this.
  7. #1207
    I think I might do a 180 here and join the spoiled, whiny bitches who think $60 bucks entitles them to a thousand hours of compelling gameplay according to their exact preferred terms.

    So I was playing the game...and I snagged myself something called a 'Prometheus Lens', which is basically a death ray that melts the face off of anyone it touches. It was astonishingly effective at incinerating alien robots.

    So....I took it into the PvP arena.

    Now, it's worth mentioning that I absolutely, positively BLOW at PvP. I dabbled in that type of game back in the late 90's playing Quake 2, which is a much more simplistic game, and I sucked at that. Fast forward to present day, and my go-to tactic of 'run backwards and shoot their feet' is wildly insufficient.

    Until I got the Prometheus Lens

    This laser-pointer of doom makes it lol easy to 1-hit kill my opponents.

    Trying to ambush me around the corner...FACE MELTED!
    Trying to get the drop on me from above....FACE MELTED!
    Trying to run away....FACE MELTED!
    If your face shows up on my screen....I will melt it.

    Now I'm winning. Now I'm building up respectable stats. Now I'm earning high-level rewards and my character is progressing faster.

    Then Bungie says they plan to 'nerf' (a word I just learned) the Prometheus Lens when they release the next update.

    WTF??!! I spent all this time farming for a powerful gun, got one, used it effectively in battle, all in a game I paid $60 for!! Why can't I play the game the way I wanna play it?? Huh? Why are they taking something from me that I already bought! If people don't like getting their face melted, then they should play harder and earn a Face-melting machine of their own.

    What are these greedy ass-holes doing to MY game? This criminal fuck-over just made it harder for me to be effortlessly successful in something that doesn't matter at all.

    [I'm glad I could post this in text, cause I couldn't say it with a straight face]
    Last edited by BananaStand; 12-12-2017 at 11:23 AM.
  8. #1208
    You say that jokingly but one of the reasons (and a good one) that developers don't patch games quicker is because when people have spent time unlocking that OP thing they need to be given time to play with it or the negative of taking it away is really off putting to people and obviously they can't nerf things instantly because meta takes time to find and lots of "day one" (i.e. shit thats great on day one) becomes useless later on.

    People also really don't like balanced games, they like OP shit.
  9. #1209
    What is "OP"?
  10. #1210
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    DOES THIS LOOK LIKE GOOGLE TO YOU?!
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  11. #1211
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    It means overpowered. Urban Dictionary is your friend.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  12. #1212
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    DOES THIS LOOK LIKE GOOGLE TO YOU?!
    Uh oh....did the sinister video game cabal fuck you over too??

    And LOL at googling a two-letter acronym
  13. #1213
    I used to enjoy this thread
    Congratulations, you've won your dick's weight in sweets! Decode the message in the above post to find out how to claim your tic-tac
  14. #1214
    Quote Originally Posted by Luco View Post
    I used to enjoy this thread
    Sorry, the fun in this thread has been locked behind DLC. You need to send me $20 and get the forum expansion pack "FTR: The Legend of Crybaby Jack"
  15. #1215
    How do I stop sucking donkey balls at PvP?
  16. #1216
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfxUckgFLoc

    This applies to every shooter. Focused practice. Pick a thing you want to work on and then work on that thing and don't worry about winning. Things I do every warm up:
    180 degree turns: when you run in a straight line, turn 180 degrees, run backwards, turn 180 degrees, run forward. Make sure your crosshair stays at head level and you don't over or undershoot your turns.
    aiming: practice tracing and flicking separately. You can practice tracing by trying to keep your crosshair on a teammates head if there are no enemies around. pratice flick shots by choosing random targets in the environment and flick to them. jiggle peaking is also a thing in almost any shooter. eliminate angles you can get attacked from using walls and obstacles. Peek, shoot, and get back to cover. Learn the environment. Visualize the terrain that's hidden by an obstacles and when you peek, be aware of the difference of your mental image and the environment.

    Most recent "gaming" mice have good sensors in them these days, but there's a chance you have a really shitty sensor that makes your life harder than it should be. If you find you can't do 180° turns accurately, it might be your mouse sensor and not muscle memory.
    In terms of sensitivity: the lowest sens that you can still do 180 turns with comfortably is what you should aim for. Most people play way too high sens for their own good.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  17. #1217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Stories like this are becoming far too common Now

    Yeah, we totally need the government to step in and protect people from buying shit they want. That's exactly what we need.

    ...

    Are you fucking serious right now?
  18. #1218
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Yeah, we totally need the government to step in and protect people from buying shit they want. That's exactly what we need.

    ...

    Are you fucking serious right now?
    Hi banana, good to see you, haven't seen you in a while, how have you been?
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  19. #1219
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    This type of shit is what happens when boys keep playing video games into adulthood.
  20. #1220
    The issue is why does a kid have access to $13,000. Maybe it's the fault of his parents for being absolute morons?

    But the obvious answer is to ban anyone ever spending any money on anything.
  21. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    The issue is why does a kid have access to $13,000. Maybe it's the fault of his parents for being absolute morons?

    But the obvious answer is to ban anyone ever spending any money on anything.
    While I absolutely see your point, in this particular case, he had access to $13,000 because he worked for that money in a cafe, according to the story.
  22. #1222
    So what's the issue?

    Man spends money on thing he wants?
  23. #1223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    So what's the issue?

    Man spends money on thing he wants?
    It's the same thing it's always about with liberals: They want the government to babysit everyone and tell them every single little thing to do and not to do so that they never have to be responsible for themselves or their own choices.

    Come hang out with us in Discord. I want to hear about your adventures in mathmagicland.
  24. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    It's the same thing it's always about with liberals: They want the government to babysit everyone and tell them every single little thing to do and not to do so that they never have to be responsible for themselves or their own choices.

    Come hang out with us in Discord. I want to hear about your adventures in mathmagicland.
    I'm a liberal and I don't want that. The article should be (and I've still not read) teenager earns 13k working in a cafe wtf are you doing with your life?

    There are no articles saying how the 35 year old middle manager spends his 30k a year getting 20 year old girls coked up in the hope one of them will suck his dick.
  25. #1225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    I'm a liberal and I don't want that. The article should be (and I've still not read) teenager earns 13k working in a cafe wtf are you doing with your life?

    There are no articles saying how the 35 year old middle manager spends his 30k a year getting 20 year old girls coked up in the hope one of them will suck his dick.
    You're not as much of a liberal (in the US style) as you think.
  26. #1226
    i have a hard as shit time with political labels. because i try to not pigeon anybody, but really you cant say anything even if true without offending somebody.

    im a liberal and a conservative and libertarian. the right is a mess and has no coherent philosophy historically becuase it's mostly just anti-left and something something god. the left has a very coherent philosophy of anti-individualism and stoicism for the state.
  27. #1227
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    I'm a Trump Conservative.

    Generally speaking, that means a fiscally conservative, socially moderate-to-liberal nationalist capitalist.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 12-16-2017 at 12:19 AM.
  28. #1228
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    And there I was afraid you wouldn't be able to turn that topic around to talk about yourself.
    It's an all around shit situation with micro transactions right now. Some companies will stretch the legal limit as much as they can until governments step in.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  29. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    And there I was afraid you wouldn't be able to turn that topic around to talk about yourself.
    It's an all around shit situation with micro transactions right now. Some companies will stretch the legal limit as much as they can until governments step in.
    And what legal limit is that? They offer things to buy? And some people buy them?

    Oh god, government come save us.
  30. #1230
    The question the needs to be asked yet seems to not be asked when it comes to the proposal to have government intervene is "would this improve preferences and efficiency?"
  31. #1231
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    "And what legal limit is that? They offer things to buy? And some people buy them?"
    CS:GO betting sites are very grey area. You can bet skins that have no monetary value outside the steam marketplace, you can upload cosmetic skins to the gambling site and they only pay out skins, so they neatly avoid any gambling laws, but there are other sites that allow you to bulk sell or buy skins in exchange for cash.
    On the less obvious end of the spectrum there's item drop systems that are carbon copied from slot machines, but without any of the regulations involved with slot machines. So you don't know the odds, the odds are subject to change and they might do things like lower the odds the more you spend. Someone even dug up a patent by some game publisher that was a system to match worse players with much better players who had certain items to entice them to buy those.
    So unless publishers ease up on that crap, which they're not going to, government agencies will start to see that as a place to make easy money, and then we're going to be nostalgic about the time it was just the FCC blasting us in the ass.
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  32. #1232
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  33. #1233
    If adults are buying microtransactions, what's the problem and how are you going to fix it?

    If kids are buying microtransactions, where are the parents?
  34. #1234
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Someone even dug up a patent by some game publisher that was a system to match worse players with much better players who had certain items to entice them to buy those.
    That's a very smart decision.

    Everything you listed will be handled by the market if there is demand for such. If not, government intervention isn't needed anyway.
  35. #1235
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    I don't think I've made my angle clear. I don't want anyone to regulate anything in my games or any media, but if game publishers continue to push the boundaries like that, there will be regulation, and once regulation gets its foot in the door, they'll find more dumb things to regulate.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  36. #1236
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    Oh and if I've gotten a lot less coherent lately, it's because the fucking edit button still isn't working. How can that even break! Can someone get on that because I will continue to press reply without proof reading.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  37. #1237
    true.

    wait, maybe true. i need to wait for ftr neutrality to make sure what i say is true is true.
  38. #1238
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    "And what legal limit is that? They offer things to buy? And some people buy them?"
    CS:GO betting sites are very grey area. You can bet skins that have no monetary value outside the steam marketplace, you can upload cosmetic skins to the gambling site and they only pay out skins, so they neatly avoid any gambling laws, but there are other sites that allow you to bulk sell or buy skins in exchange for cash.
    On the less obvious end of the spectrum there's item drop systems that are carbon copied from slot machines, but without any of the regulations involved with slot machines. So you don't know the odds, the odds are subject to change and they might do things like lower the odds the more you spend. Someone even dug up a patent by some game publisher that was a system to match worse players with much better players who had certain items to entice them to buy those.
    So unless publishers ease up on that crap, which they're not going to, government agencies will start to see that as a place to make easy money, and then we're going to be nostalgic about the time it was just the FCC blasting us in the ass.
    And also the whole tmartyn and prosyndicate thing, "forgetting" to disclose they owned the actual sites they were lootboxing on, then claiming amnesia, then apologizing
    My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...


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  39. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Oh and if I've gotten a lot less coherent lately, it's because the fucking edit button still isn't working. How can that even break! Can someone get on that because I will continue to press reply without proof reading.
    It works for me, but I'm not sure if that's because I'm a moderator or something. What I do is that I hit edit, and the edit box comes up. I make my edit, and when I hit the save button, it just sits there like it's doing something without ever doing anything. I refresh the page, and my edit appears. Not sure if that's helpful.
  40. #1240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    And also the whole tmartyn and prosyndicate thing, "forgetting" to disclose they owned the actual sites they were lootboxing on, then claiming amnesia, then apologizing
    This sounds juicy. Quick explanation?
  41. #1241
    the quote and edit functions don't work because lack of ftr neutrality. im ajitated.
  42. #1242
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    the quote and edit functions don't work because lack of ftr neutrality. im ajitated.
    Why would you buy FTR+ if all the FTR features worked?
  43. #1243
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    This sounds juicy. Quick explanation?
    So it's a game. Then started the skin gambling. Then, these jackasses would upload huge wins and reactions on their sites, failing to mention that it was their sites. Investigation quickly followed, and then they would claim it wasn't theirs, then claim amnesia, then eventually uploading apologies as they figured out that yes, indeed, they owned the damn sites (and had admin accounts. Like lee jones at pokerstars, against you, headsup.)

    This is basically the tip of the iceberg, a whole saga ensued

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    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  44. #1244
    i pirate ftr+

    checkmate atheists
  45. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    the quote and edit functions don't work because lack of ftr neutrality. im ajitated.
    Hahahahaha so funny, implying it takes hours for the consequences of decisions like these to manifest themselves
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    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
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  46. #1246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    So it's a game. Then started the skin gambling. Then, these jackasses would upload huge wins and reactions on their sites, failing to mention that it was their sites. Investigation quickly followed, and then they would claim it wasn't theirs, then claim amnesia, then eventually uploading apologies as they figured out that yes, indeed, they owned the damn sites (and had admin accounts. Like lee jones at pokerstars, against you, headsup.)

    This is basically the tip of the iceberg, a whole saga ensued

    Is the tldr that they were marketing fake huge wins to promote their own skin gambling sites?

    I'm asking because that's a common tactic in gambling markets. I've added this video to my queue regardless. This type of thing is super interesting to me because I'm quite involved in the larger online gambling industry.

    Edit: So I had a look at the first several minutes of that video, and it's pretty much what I expected. I've heard bits and pieces about how skin gambling works, but I've never really sat down and looked into it deeply.

    With regards to the making fake videos about winning (and sometimes losing) large amounts as a marketing tactic, my understanding is that they were pretty stupid with how they were so transparent about it. They took no precautions whatsoever to make the story they were trying to tell look legitimate. I have no moral/ethical qualms with the basic idea of what they were doing, but I do have a huge issue with how poorly executed it was. It's just plain terrible.

    With that having been said, my understanding of marketing and the lengths to which things like this happen in virtually (no pun intended) all other sectors and markets probably makes me not care too much about it. That general conversation gets out of the scope of video games pretty quickly, and I might make a post about it in the randomness thread to continue that particular conversation there.

    Thank you for the video and brief explanation.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 12-17-2017 at 12:09 AM.
  47. #1247
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    yes. idk how but some guys managed to come up with screenshots of skype conversations with the site dev where they were asking them for the upcoming result tables.
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  48. #1248
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    Cogito ergo sum

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    Hey, I'm in a movie!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdwe3ArFWA
  49. #1249
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    However, American case law has determined that use of virtual goods for betting on the outcome of matches is legal and not covered under gambling laws.
    This was from Wikipedia, but there was no footnote. Can anyone elaborate on this?
  50. #1250
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Thank you for the video and brief explanation.
    Np.

    These are the shenanigans I'm against. You know, now you add kids to the mix, because CSGO (and it's lootboxes) is PG13 of course. I didn't check that rating, but I'm willing to bet money on it being PG13.

    They took the gambling not-gambling aspect of this particular game's lootboxes and built an entire empire on it. Which is what the "reaction videos" are all about. Granted, it was a house of cards, but those were their actions
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  51. #1251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Np.

    These are the shenanigans I'm against. You know, now you add kids to the mix, because CSGO (and it's lootboxes) is PG13 of course. I didn't check that rating, but I'm willing to bet money on it being PG13.

    They took the gambling not-gambling aspect of this particular game's lootboxes and built an entire empire on it. Which is what the "reaction videos" are all about. Granted, it was a house of cards, but those were their actions
    On that particular case of the videos pretending to be winners on their own site, I'm pretty sure the FTC already has advertising laws in place that make that practice illegal in the United States. I know a half dozen or so people who have been popped on the same sort of thing with regards to not disclosing their ties with a company they were promoting, etc.

    Edit: Literally less than five minutes after making this post, I read the following on Wikipedia:

    In September 2017, in what the FTC called its first settlement with "social media influencers", the FTC arranged an agreement with Martin and Cassell, requiring them to disclose any business ties with their videos in the future or face more drastic action; this agreement was finalized in December 2017.
    Doh.
  52. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    This was from Wikipedia, but there was no footnote. Can anyone elaborate on this?
    Some kind of perverse interpretation of "old" definitions of gambling. The laws have not been updated for current trends, and these are the loopholes lawyers would employ to get their clients out of trouble. The main difference in most cases is that you cannot take exchanged money out opnce you buy in game currency. In my view, that is even worse than a casino; whereas a casino you *have* a chance to win your money back, theretically, in these you are actually a captive audience to their gambling mechanics as long as you play the game because a) you can't ever cash out and b) virtual goods are essentially worthless outside of their very definitely predefined environments. It's basically a money pit.

    Which is among the reasons why the legislation needs updating pronto

    Here for more background:
    https://www.quora.com/Do-the-laws-th...rency-gambling


    P.S Can I interest you in a $100 lootbox? But it's only cosmetic, so it's okay

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  53. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    On that particular case of the videos pretending to be winners on their own site, I'm pretty sure the FTC already has advertising laws in place that make that practice illegal in the United States. I know a half dozen or so people who have been popped on the same sort of thing with regards to not disclosing their ties with a company they were promoting, etc.

    Edit: Literally less than five minutes after making this post, I read the following on Wikipedia:



    Doh.
    Sure. They denied being the owners, and then after being exposed they kinda went "oops, I guess I'm the owner after all". And then the apologies etc.

    Now the FTC is telling them that they should disclose. Behave now, boys. In the future. Slap on the fucking wrist.Hahahaha

    But FTC is a part of the gov, correct? *insert line about why we need government etc etc here*
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  54. #1254
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    One of my fairly obscure hobbies on and off over the past decade and a half has been developing methods for cheating in a handful of online MMORPG type games with a heavy focus on Runescape 2 (now OSRS) and now Runescape 3. I have little to no interest in playing these types of games legitimately, but the cat and mouse game of going back and forth against anti-cheating mechanisms is a lot of fun for me and always has been.

    Jagex is the company that runs the Runescape games.

    Runescape 3 catches a whole lot of shit because they constantly have different types of promotions that seem related here. There is a paid membership that you can get in the game that allows you to access all of the content (as opposed to a free membership that allows you to use a limited amount of armor, skills, limited access to game areas, etc.). They also have in-game items called bonds that you can purchase with in-game gold that gives you a couple of weeks of membership. However, they also allow you to purchase bonds directly with real world money, and those bonds can then be traded to players for other items, in-game gold and so on.

    This effectively created a straightforward, Jagex-enabled real-money market for in-game gold and items.

    To complicate that, as I mentioned earlier, RS3 also has constant promotions for what amount to purchasing randomized loot crates and similar. You can sell the items you get for in-game gold, which can then be used to buy bonds, which amounts to real-world currency. Since bonds can be sold to other players for real-world money through third-party sites, it's essentially a situation where the randomized loot creates and the like are a form of unregulated gambling.

    Another effect of this is that huge bot account farms have shot up that gather in-game resources and gold, which then have real-world value through the series of trades outlined above, but that's been the case in plenty of other games as well. It's particularly relevant to me because of my particular hobby with the game, but I thought I'd point that out.

    Anyway, all of that just seemed somewhat related.
  55. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Sure. They denied being the owners, and then after being exposed they kinda went "oops, I guess I'm the owner after all". And then the apologies etc.

    Now the FTC is telling them that they should disclose. Behave now, boys. In the future. Slap on the fucking wrist.Hahahaha

    But FTC is a part of the gov, correct? *insert line about why we need government etc etc here*
    *insert line about how the entire problem could be sorted out by a free market without government intervention*

    Tangentially related, that whole thing also gets into a discussion of if the government should protect gambling addicts from themselves through regulatory measures, etc.
  56. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    *insert line about how the entire problem could be sorted out by a free market without government intervention*

    Tangentially related, that whole thing also gets into a discussion of if the government should protect gambling addicts from themselves through regulatory measures, etc.
    Hmmm, ok ok, let's continue with the mind experiment

    Technically, isn't the free market in play at all times? Aren't they free to do as they wish? Didn't they out of their free will choose this particular path, with resulted in their ridiculous "reprimand" by the FTC? I mean, it IS a scam after all. If this wasn't a problem with the FTC, why would they stop scamming?

    How would the free market solve this problem without government intervention? Wouldn't you still need the same whistleblowers and the same watchdogs that are paying attention to sound the alarms? Or would it be done in a completely different way that we do not know of but we'd have to trust because it's the free market and it can do no wrong?

    So would this particular scam not be a scam in a fully free market?
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  57. #1257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Hmmm, ok ok, let's continue with the mind experiment

    Technically, isn't the free market in play at all times? Aren't they free to do as they wish? Didn't they out of their free will choose this particular path, with resulted in their ridiculous "reprimand" by the FTC? I mean, it IS a scam after all. If this wasn't a problem with the FTC, why would they stop scamming?

    How would the free market solve this problem without government intervention? Wouldn't you still need the same whistleblowers and the same watchdogs that are paying attention to sound the alarms? Or would it be done in a completely different way that we do not know of but we'd have to trust because it's the free market and it can do no wrong?

    So would this particular scam not be a scam in a fully free market?
    One important principle is that you can't keep people from scamming. Create all the rules you want, but someone will always figure out a way to get around them. If the guys in this particular example with the skin gambling site weren't so oblivious and stupid, they would have never gotten caught.

    As for how the free market can regulate itself, eCOGRA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECOGRA) is a good example. They are an independent company that offers certifications to show that online gambling operations are within certain guidelines, and they have a better long-term reputation than any government licensing jurisdiction on the planet. Companies like eCOGRA showed up because there are no international guidelines or regulatory bodies for online gambling, and it's an excellent example of the market providing accountability in an area where government was not.

    Another principle is that it's much easier to corrupt government entities than it is to corrupt profit-driven companies due to the incentives and accountability at play, which is driven by the free market. The example of the FTC giving the "slap on the wrist" in the above case is a good example. If the FTC was profit-driven, not adhering to their own rules (which is what happened with the lack of enforcement) hurts their reputation and their bottom line in a major way. If eCOGRA did that once, their entire business model would fall apart.

    The point isn't to be without whistleblowers, watchdogs and other forms of accountability. Those are 100 percent needed because, as I mentioned in my first paragraph above, there is no way to 100 percent stop scamming of some type in virtually any industry or sector. The point is that there is no consistent level of accountability with the FTC and other government agencies whatsoever, as you can see in the lack of enforcement of the existing FTC rules in the above scenario (and I'm sure you can think of an almost endless list of other examples).

    It's also not that the free market can "do no wrong" or that it's perfect. Instead, the argument is that it's much more efficient and effective than government intervention at these types of things (and at a lot of other things) because of the incentive structures in place.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 12-17-2017 at 08:39 AM.
  58. #1258
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Technically, isn't the free market in play at all times? Aren't they free to do as they wish? Didn't they out of their free will choose this particular path, with resulted in their ridiculous "reprimand" by the FTC? I mean, it IS a scam after all. If this wasn't a problem with the FTC, why would they stop scamming?
    I read up on this a little bit, and the word "scam" feels a little heavy. From what I gather, it was in the fine print that you could just email them and ask for some free betting currency. No one was actually required to spend money. McDonalds does the same thing with their Monopoly game. You get a little game ticket attached to your french fries. But if you don't wanna buy french fries, you can just walk up and ask for a gaming ticket, and they'll give you one.

    If we're calling that "gambling", then McDonalds is a casino.

    Separate issue seems to be related to non-disclosure of site ownership while advertising for that site. And whether that deserves a slap on the wrist, or a harsh punishment should be a question of intent. From what I gather, this guy claims he was just trying to keep his business separate from his online personality, or something of that sort. Really what he's saying is that "I'm a naive kid, poorly informed on the law, who didn't think he was hurting anyone". That sounds plausible to me. And it certainly demands a different punishment than if there was damning evidence of a savvy industry insider deliberately skirting the rules to enhance profits.

    Jack - is it possible for you to just 'not like' some things in the gaming industry? Why do you insist on identifying a sinister evil plot driving everything you hate about video games?
    Last edited by BananaStand; 12-19-2017 at 01:05 PM.
  59. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    I read up on this a little bit, and the word "scam" feels a little heavy. From what I gather, it was in the fine print that you could just email them and ask for some free betting currency. No one was actually required to spend money. McDonalds does the same thing with their Monopoly game. You get a little game ticket attached to your french fries. But if you don't wanna buy french fries, you can just walk up and ask for a gaming ticket, and they'll give you one.

    If we're calling that "gambling", then McDonalds is a casino.

    Separate issue seems to be related to non-disclosure of site ownership while advertising for that site. And whether that deserves a slap on the wrist, or a harsh punishment should be a question of intent. From what I gather, this guy claims he was just trying to keep his business separate from his online personality, or something of that sort. Really what he's saying is that "I'm a naive kid, poorly informed on the law, who didn't think he was hurting anyone". That sounds plausible to me. And it certainly demands a different punishment than if there was damning evidence of a savvy industry insider deliberately skirting the rules to enhance profits.

    Jack - is it possible for you to just 'not like' some things in the gaming industry? Why do you insist on identifying a sinister evil plot driving everything you hate about video games?
    So you bought hook line and sinker what their lawyer is saying? As, your words are literally word for word what this article says: https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/18/1...-of-use-tmartn

    Just as an example, as you think I "identify sinister evil plots" on a whim. From the article

    “Not disclosing you’re an owner is very different than hiding,” Watson said. “To me, hiding is someone asking ‘Are you the owner?’ and you say no.”
    Here is what tmartn said back in the day

    And we found this new site


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  60. #1260
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    So you bought hook line and sinker what their lawyer is saying?
    Is there a compelling reason not to??

    As, your words are literally word for word what this article says: https://www.polygon.com/2017/12/18/1...-of-use-tmartn
    Yep, it appears we have the same google machine.

    Here is what tmartn said back in the day
    No one is disputing the dishonesty. What seems to be in dispute...is the man's intent. You see "sinister villain". I see "idiot".

    It seems that law enforcement and the justice system agree with me. So, why are you right and we're all wrong?

    They meted out a punishment that was commensurate with a non-nefarious intent. Corrected the behavior, and now it's not a problem anymore. The system worked....so what's your beef?
  61. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    One important principle is that you can't keep people from scamming. Create all the rules you want, but someone will always figure out a way to get around them. If the guys in this particular example with the skin gambling site weren't so oblivious and stupid, they would have never gotten caught.

    As for how the free market can regulate itself, eCOGRA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECOGRA) is a good example. They are an independent company that offers certifications to show that online gambling operations are within certain guidelines, and they have a better long-term reputation than any government licensing jurisdiction on the planet. Companies like eCOGRA showed up because there are no international guidelines or regulatory bodies for online gambling, and it's an excellent example of the market providing accountability in an area where government was not.

    Another principle is that it's much easier to corrupt government entities than it is to corrupt profit-driven companies due to the incentives and accountability at play, which is driven by the free market. The example of the FTC giving the "slap on the wrist" in the above case is a good example. If the FTC was profit-driven, not adhering to their own rules (which is what happened with the lack of enforcement) hurts their reputation and their bottom line in a major way. If eCOGRA did that once, their entire business model would fall apart.
    The ESRB fills that role in the gaming landscape. But, of course, it's filled with industry heads with obvious incentives to look the other way as much as possible

    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    The point isn't to be without whistleblowers, watchdogs and other forms of accountability. Those are 100 percent needed because, as I mentioned in my first paragraph above, there is no way to 100 percent stop scamming of some type in virtually any industry or sector. The point is that there is no consistent level of accountability with the FTC and other government agencies whatsoever, as you can see in the lack of enforcement of the existing FTC rules in the above scenario (and I'm sure you can think of an almost endless list of other examples).

    It's also not that the free market can "do no wrong" or that it's perfect. Instead, the argument is that it's much more efficient and effective than government intervention at these types of things (and at a lot of other things) because of the incentive structures in place.
    Indeed, nothing is perfect. But this seems to be the no. 1 argument that free market proponents do have, i.e. its perfection
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  62. #1262
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    But this seems to be the no. 1 argument that free market proponents do have, i.e. its perfection
    Who ever said this?

    Furthermore, why do you think the government could get closer to perfection than a free market? When has that ever happened?
  63. #1263
    I've been playing Destiny 2, and despite my previous bitching about loot-collecting games, I've had fun with this one. I'm enjoying the grind of seeking out various adventures and tasks all for the purpose of leveling-up my character. But now that I've spent a few weeks with the game and the polish has worn off a bit, I find myself asking the question "Why do I want to level-up my guy?"

    I'm already at a level that allows me to complete any mission with ease. And frankly, that's not saying much since the game is supremely easy. The enemies are easily the stupidest things I've ever encountered in a video game. Last night I found myself surrounded by Psions armed with laser rifles pointed straight at my head. Without running, dodging, or maneuvering whatsoever, it seems that ALL of their shots missed me. Then they all stood there stupidly as I calmly walked to each one in turn and dispatched it with a melee punch in the face.

    Power and XP level don't mean anything in PvP. Everything is sanded down, so it's all "fair" for vets and new players alike.

    So, what the fuck am I gonna do with a stronger guy?

    Are there games out there where XP gains and power improvements actually mean something? Or, even better, are there games out there where my character's growth and development is tied to some kind of compelling story or content reveal?
  64. #1264
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    Last edited by Jack Sawyer; 12-19-2017 at 04:45 PM. Reason: LOL speling
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  65. #1265
    That's because Destiny has what we call awful end game. It's made especially awful by the fact that they release things to do (which are also poor compared to the standard) as DLC rather than including it into the game.

    That's why you don't play destiny and if you want that type of game you play a proper MMORPG.
  66. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Who ever said this?

    Furthermore, why do you think the government could get closer to perfection than a free market? When has that ever happened?
    Pretty much every single free market advocate ever. All they do is market it as the one approach to fix all problems, like holy water to vampires
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  67. #1267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    That's because Destiny has what we call awful end game. It's made especially awful by the fact that they release things to do (which are also poor compared to the standard) as DLC rather than including it into the game.

    That's why you don't play destiny and if you want that type of game you play a proper MMORPG.
    Blasphemy!
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  68. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Blasphemy!
    Care to explain?
  69. #1269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savy View Post
    Care to explain?
    I'm fucking with you. As you may or may not know by now, I don't care about destiny, because it fn sucks
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  70. #1270
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Indeed, nothing is perfect. But this seems to be the no. 1 argument that free market proponents do have, i.e. its perfection
    The free market argument is that the free market more efficiently allocates resources to things people want than government does.

    There are possible reasons for why this could be the case that include individuals having a better understanding of their own preferences than government does,* individuals having a greater incentive to address their preferences than government does,** and individuals having more information about how to address their preferences than government does.***


    *There's not much way around this one. It's basically that you know how you feel better than somebody else does.

    **This is skin-in-the-game. You probably care more about your toilet flushing to your satisfaction than Donald Trump does. You are adjacent to your problems while bureaucrats and politicians are several degrees of separated from them.

    ***When your toilet isn't flushing, you know your toilet's history (with possible solutions), your finances, your plumber options, etc. better than government does. You have a lot of information about your nuanced situations that the government doesn't have. The same goes for people who produce goods and services; they too have an information advantage over government regarding what works, what doesn't work, the science, the expertise, etc..


    That isn't to say that government can't be better than the free market in some ways. If you can find something that government taxing, spending, and regulating would do better than if instead it was up to individuals interacting with each other freely, then you would have found a case for government on that issue.

    I personally am a free market advocate because I have yet been unable to reconcile economic principles and theory**** with any particular issues where government is proposed to do better.


    ****And data, but virtually any case can be made with economic data
  71. #1271
    The best I can tell is that the type of thing one would seek out to show government could make people better off on a particular issue is that, if for some reason attributed to government, like its scale or scope, it is able to set a policy that reduces information asymmetries in the market and peoples' lives that the market and those people otherwise can't. I've been trying to find something that fits for a while. Do you have any ideas?
  72. #1272
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    Indeed, and yet I advocate for a mix. Extremes on all sides are bad mmmkay in pretty much everything in life, why would markets be any different?
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  73. #1273
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    The best I can tell is that the type of thing one would seek out to show government could make people better off on a particular issue is that, if for some reason attributed to government, like its scale or scope, it is able to set a policy that reduces information asymmetries in the market and peoples' lives that the market and those people otherwise can't. I've been trying to find something that fits for a while. Do you have any ideas?
    ... healthcare?
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  74. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Is there a compelling reason not to??
    More than have already been presented?

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    Yep, it appears we have the same google machine.
    Yes, the difference being that I try to understand what I read before putting it in a thread trying to make arguments

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    No one is disputing the dishonesty. What seems to be in dispute...is the man's intent. You see "sinister villain". I see "idiot".

    It seems that law enforcement and the justice system agree with me. So, why are you right and we're all wrong?
    OJ did it

    Quote Originally Posted by BananaStand View Post
    hey meted out a punishment that was commensurate with a non-nefarious intent. Corrected the behavior, and now it's not a problem anymore. The system worked....so what's your beef?
    I don't really know what my beef is, you know. Maybe it's the fact that he willfully and intentionally tried to deceive the public with something so crucial as ownership of a gambling site (as you know superusers are still a thing [POTRIPPER anyone?]), or that it's gambling (by every definition of the action except current laws apparently simply refuse to recognize this) aimed at kids, or that once caught he deflected, still denying ownership, and then eventually owned up to it with apologies claiming "I didn't know", or the fact that these assholes got off with nary a slap on the wrist whereas if one steals fruit from a store you can go to jail for a long longass time

    I just don't know what my beef is with this particular situation. Never really been a CSGO player
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  75. #1275
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer View Post
    Indeed, and yet I advocate for a mix. Extremes on all sides are bad mmmkay in pretty much everything in life, why would markets be any different?
    The "market" is a model of how people interact in terms of prices and quantities of goods and services. When we think in terms of level of competition, there are essentially three types of markets: monopolistic, monopolistic competition (most goods/services are here), and perfect competition (only things like wheat are here). These markets have endogenous function that provides them to "correct" to a shock. Government is an exogenous variable that can shock the market with policy and change the price and/or quantity in a market. The "free" market position is the idea that the government shouldn't do this. The reasons boil down to the claim that when government does this, it disrupts endogenous market function enough that the price and quantity in each market as well as the creation of new markets becomes subdued. Free market advocacy is to allow markets' endogenous qualities to work to reduce price and increase quantity; government intervention advocacy is to use exogenous shocks to reduce price and increase quantity in spite of sketchy effectiveness.

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