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  1. #1

    Default Another diet question (dairy free)

    For a many years now I've been avoiding milk and cream. I don't tolerate it well. I don't seem to have stomach issues with cheeses or things like yogurt, sour cream or cottage cheese. That said, I do have a lot of issues with lungs and sinuses for as long as I can remember. I actually have inhalers and a nasal prescription I take intermittently. I have even recommended to other people to try dairy free with good results for other ailments mostly in the digestion or intestinal problems.

    Does anyone have any experience with going dairy free without the vegan propaganda? Most dairy free articles or sites are vegetarian, vegan or the likes but I have no issues with eating meat and want to look at this from a health standpoint and not a morality view.
  2. #2
    Lukie's Avatar
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    This probably won't be very helpful, but the only real issue I have ever had with dairy was trying GOMAD many years ago. There were only really minor issues with that though, as I remember backing it off to roughly 1/2 GOMAD and that was fine.

    These days I do still drink some milk (including in coffee) but a gallon lasts me roughly a week or so. I get a moderate amount of cheese in my diet mostly in various foods, and also have the occasional yogurt and other dairy.

    I have tried going for stretches without eating or drinking dairy and didn't really feel any better (or worse.) It's one of those personal/YMMV type things.
  3. #3
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    I used to take lactase supplements & similiarly stuck mostly to yoghurt & cheese.
  4. #4
    I talked about going non-dairy myself in the Low Carb thread, and I linked to a random article I found quickly on Google: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post2140221

    When I first made the decision to go dairy-free, I had the same problem you're having. The sites I found that discussed the negatives of dairy were obviously far too biased and seemed loaded with misinformation, or they were part of vegan diet discussions in which I didn't have any interest.

    Around that time, I found this article, which seems to cover the topic pretty well, plus realage.com is a site run by two well-respected doctors: http://www.realage.com/food/drinking...benefits-risks. Cliffs:
    - Grain-fed cow milk has different fatty acid composition than milk from grass-fed cows (grass-fed being significantly better)
    - Cows injected with recombinant bovine growth hormone (rBGH) create milk with 10 times the insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) enzyme, which may be linked to increased cancer risk (rBGH is used in most cows in the US).
    - The often-touted study that you can "drink milk and lose weight" was funded by the National Dairy Council, and most marketing around that study fail to mention that the participants were on a calorie-restricted diet (plus the study sample size was too small -- newer studies don't repeat the results)
    - Drinking milk does not help strengthen your bones or prevent osteoporisis (some critics claim that drinking milk actually makes your bones weaker)

    One thing I found out recently -- there has been a lot of research into the link between dairy in children's diets and the considerable increase in type-1 diabetes in children. Search Google for "dairy linked to type 1 diabetes", for example: http://drbenkim.com/diabetes-type-1-dairy.htm (that article has links to studies published in medical journals).
  5. #5
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    I love milk and cream and cheeses and all kinds of dairy products, and I just deal with lactose intolerance, like the other 75% of adults. I am envious of that 25%, though. You bastards.

    Also, it is quite obvious that milk is made for baby cows, so any health risks associated with drinking it are, LDO.
  6. #6
    Ya gizmo, it was your article that respawned my thoughts about this. Most of my concerns have always been that it may be a large cause of my breathing issues (wheezing, asthma) , stuffy nose (constantly blowing) and the ability to produce phlegm, and spit constantly. I'm going to try 2 weeks and see starting after easter dinner Sunday night. The only dairy I will add aftrr those two weeks will be butter if I have a huge reduction in symptoms. I will say, I do fear if this helps I will lose out on whey protein, chocolate and cheese
  7. #7
    Good luck, hope it helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    I will say, I do fear if this helps I will lose out on whey protein, chocolate and cheese
    You can find vegetable protein powder (pea, rice, etc.), although I'm not very familiar with any pros/cons of the actual proteins vs. whey.

    Chocolate -- I've always liked dark chocolate, and really good dark chocolate doesn't have any dairy.

    Cheese -- yeah, I miss this the most, I actually used to prefer cheese after meals rather than dessert (or even better -- cheesecake!). You can try sheep/goat cheeses, supposedly they aren't nearly as inflammatory as cow's milk. For a while, I was still eating those occasionally without any major effects. I really like authentic pecorino romano -- the real stuff is made from sheep's milk.
  8. #8
    Gizmo, What would you say are the biggest changes you've noticed since the dietary changes? How soon after and have you slipped up and felt the effects rewritten immediately?
  9. #9
    Biggest changes:
    - More stable energy levels -- I don't get an energy crash in the early afternoon anymore, for instance (I think I noticed this one pretty quickly, like within a week or two)
    - I used to have to clear my throat a lot -- that's gone (I forget how long this took -- definitely less than a month, maybe much faster?)
    - I lost 10 pounds after about a month (then my weight stabilized again). That was surprising, because at the time I was working out much more regularly, and I try to gain (muscle) weight when I lift. But I went from 175 to 165 (FYI, I'm 6'0") without losing any strength, and a little gut that I struggled to get rid of suddenly disappeared.

    Occasionally I still eat dairy, for whatever reason (because my wife wants chocolate dessert at a restaurant and forces me to share, because I'm drunk and my friends are ordering pizza, etc.), but it's infrequent -- maybe a couple of times a month, probably even less. Anytime I do, however, I end up feeling more tired/sluggish and congested (clearing my throat, sometimes I even feel like I have a cold starting in my sinuses). It starts anywhere from an hour to 6 hours later, and usually fully goes away after about 24-30 hours.

    One interesting anecdote - about 5 months after my wife and I went no-dairy, we went on our honeymoon to Italy. Both of us agreed that we weren't going to bother avoiding dairy during that trip -- cappuccino, gelato, great cheeses, cheesy pasta dishes, authentic pizza, tiramisu, were all fair game. Despite eating some dairy practically every day for 2 weeks, we didn't notice any of the normal side effects. Maybe their dairy is healthier than what we have in the US (and probably locally sourced from a nearby farm)?
  10. #10
    One interesting anecdote - about 5 months after my wife and I went no-dairy, we went on our honeymoon to Italy. Both of us agreed that we weren't going to bother avoiding dairy during that trip -- cappuccino, gelato, great cheeses, cheesy pasta dishes, authentic pizza, tiramisu, were all fair game. Despite eating some dairy practically every day for 2 weeks, we didn't notice any of the normal side effects. Maybe their dairy is healthier than what we have in the US (and probably locally sourced from a nearby farm)?
    Bovine growth hormone ,BST and quite a few other hormone drugs are banned in europe so you wouldn't have the effect that you were talking about .

    There will be some pretty major dietary differences in european cows compared to US cows. Not sure about italy and alfalfa but in the UK alfalfa is pretty rare as the forage base where we would have maize and grass silage as the two major forages. US/canada cows would also be fed whole soya including the oil , whereas european cows would get the remains of the soya after the soya oil has been extracted and then exported to europe.

    interesting fact , a neighbouring farmer of ours was taking part in trials to feed omega 3 oils to the cows in order to get omega3 in the milk so it could be sold as a "health fad" milk. He stopped after about 6 months as his pregnancy rates dropped through the floor. No cows in calf is pretty disastrous in a dairy herd . Guess the moral of the story is if you want to increase your fish oil intake ....eat some frickin fish.

    Also your point about locally sourced is unlikely. Yeah theres speciality cheese makers , but most european milk goes through massive factories for economy of scale as a result of the supermarkets squeezing the dairy processors margins, but results in fairly large areas supplying each factory. The trend over here is for larger dairy farms, some of the biggest would be approaching average US farm size and there was a huge outcry when plans were sent in for a 7000 cow farm over here.
  11. #11
    I'm sceptical about the link between cows milk and diabetes. A far more likely culprit is the sheer amount of sugar that manufacturers shove into foods simply to get people to buy more of their product because its tastes sweet.The effect will be magnified in western countries due to a higher proportion of the diet being processed food containing more sugar.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    Also your point about locally sourced is unlikely. Yeah theres speciality cheese makers , but most european milk goes through massive factories for economy of scale as a result of the supermarkets squeezing the dairy processors margins, but results in fairly large areas supplying each factory. The trend over here is for larger dairy farms, some of the biggest would be approaching average US farm size and there was a huge outcry when plans were sent in for a 7000 cow farm over here.
    Cool, thanks for the info. I was purely guessing about the local source stuff, obviously I was wrong. Must be all the hormones here in the US that are making milk to unhealthy.
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    I'm sceptical about the link between cows milk and diabetes. A far more likely culprit is the sheer amount of sugar that manufacturers shove into foods simply to get people to buy more of their product because its tastes sweet.The effect will be magnified in western countries due to a higher proportion of the diet being processed food containing more sugar.
    Sugar, diet, and obesity are the generally accepted causes for type 2 diabetes, which is basically insulin resistance.

    But the recent research potentially linking dairy and diabetes is referring to type 1 diabetes, which is an autoimmune disorder where the body kills the insulin producing cells in the pancreas, and from that point on the patient has to rely on insulin injections (AFAIK, there isn't any cure or way to reverse the process short of a pancreas transplant). They don't know what causes the autoimmune disorder yet, but I don't sugar/obesity is one of the candidates.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    I do fear if this helps I will lose out on whey protein, chocolate and cheese
    I am so glad you wrote this, I had no idea whey protein was derived from milk products. I am having tons of skin problems lately that were triggered from ice cream I ate a few weeks ago. I don't usually eat ice cream and I cut milk out of my diet a few months ago because I knew it affected my skin, so the ice cream fucked me up really bad. I'm so ridiculously itchy and red right now.

    Since that day, I resolved to cut dairy out of my diet completely. So like you said, no cheese and no chocolate (and everything else I love, obviously). But I kept having whey protein and no improvements were happening, and I couldn't figure out why.

    Time to find new protein, SIGH.
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  15. #15
    I've heard good things about hemp proteins. I have no experience with any non dairy powders except egg albumin back in the day and it was not good trading and only mixed with a blender. I was using Cocoa and sometimes sugar orsweetener
  16. #16
    FYI for chocolate lovers: dark chocolate actually doesn't contain any milk products (not the Hershey's stuff, but the higher end brands for sure). It may say cocoa butter on the back, but cocoa butter isn't dairy-based.

    There's actually no nutritional value to dairy products. They're all just fat and calories. Sure, milk and yogurt may have calcium. However, the US is third in the world in milk consumption (behind India and the EU), but has the highest rates of osteoporosis. Even though osteoporosis is caused by a variety of factors, if calcium was such the silver bullet that's been claimed for so long, then our rates should be much lower.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by donkbee View Post
    Time to find new protein, SIGH.
    Nuts and beans are excellent sources of protein, if you need to find a new source.

    You don't need to worry about getting enough either. Most people actually consume too much protein in their diets, which is especially bad since our bodies do not store protein. Adult women need about 46 grams a day, and the typically person actually consumes about 60 grams a day.
  18. #18
    Ya thanks Agnes but that's the type of propaganda I didn't want to hear in this thread. First off, courtie is asking about Whey, which many of us prefer as a simple protein source with minimal calories and fat which makes it very versatile to add extra protein in the diet. I also don't accept that what you consider as RDA's and need to be the same as optimum. There had been tons of studies done in protein and I'm not going to get into them here, but higher protein diets are proven better for health and body composition. Also in order to get what I consider adequate protein in my diet would take about 5K cals with nuts and beans.

    Are you vegan Agnes?
    Last edited by jyms; 03-31-2013 at 09:13 PM.
  19. #19
    And if our bodies don't store protein can you explain to me what all those things are that attach to bones and actually effect movement?
  20. #20
    I deal with dairy well so I think imma go 100% dairy-free free.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Ya thanks Agnes but that's the type of propaganda I didn't want to hear in this thread. First off, courtie is asking about Whey, which many of us prefer as a simple protein source with minimal calories and fat which makes it very versatile to add extra protein in the diet. I also don't accept that what you consider as RDA's and need to be the same as optimum. There had been tons of studies done in protein and I'm not going to get into them here, but higher protein diets are proven better for health and body composition. Also in order to get what I consider adequate protein in my diet would take about 5K cals with nuts and beans.

    Are you vegan Agnes?
    Wasn't the question about looking for an alternative to whey protein, since it wasn't helping? Nuts and beans have protein and are good for you.

    I also don't understand how what I said is propaganda. Propaganda is communication that's designed to influence attitude by presenting one side of the argument. Just because the communication disagrees with you or with conventional thinking doesn't automatically make it propaganda. I was merely presenting a perspective that I hold (and isn't held by many), and hasn't yet been brought up in this thread.

    Yes, I am vegan, and I have zero protein problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    And if our bodies don't store protein can you explain to me what all those things are that attach to bones and actually effect movement?
    I grant, I mispoke. Our body doesn't store excess protein. However, my argument still stands. Consuming too much isn't good for your body.
  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    For a many years now I've been avoiding milk and cream. I don't tolerate it well. I don't seem to have stomach issues with cheeses or things like yogurt, sour cream or cottage cheese. That said, I do have a lot of issues with lungs and sinuses for as long as I can remember. I actually have inhalers and a nasal prescription I take intermittently. I have even recommended to other people to try dairy free with good results for other ailments mostly in the digestion or intestinal problems.

    Does anyone have any experience with going dairy free without the vegan propaganda? Most dairy free articles or sites are vegetarian, vegan or the likes but I have no issues with eating meat and want to look at this from a health standpoint and not a morality view.
    disclaimer - i drink some milk and eat cheese + other dairy products and seem to be fine with it. The dairy i eat here in new zealand is almost 100% grass-fed. I'm also not a biochemist or food specialist of any kind.

    Lactose intolerances and milk-protein intolerances are different - some people have one, some the other, some both. Good link here. http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddise...seintolerance/ Best thing to do is run some dietary experiments on yourself like you're planning after easter, if you see positive results then it's probably going to be easier to be motivated about solving any problems re protein sources etc, if you see no results then you can start crossing it off your list as something to worry about. It's worth experimenting with reducing/eliminating lactose sources from diets to see what effect it has if you suspect an issue with dairy. One friend (works as a nutritionist/dietician) now avoids lactose-containing foods most of the time but also carries lactase pills with her and pops one whenever dairy becomes irresistible, and claims it works. If lactose intolerance is the issue then it's worth looking into yoghurt too.

    You can obviously be healthy AND dairy free if what's worrying you is the impact of removing dairy from your diet. Most of my dairy consumption comes in the form of cheese and yoghurt if i'm not training, or as post-run chocolate milk if i'm training. If i combine too much dairy with not much serious cardio work for a while i do start feeling blocked up (i also had some allergy nasal issues for a while years back, but i'm lucky that they've disappeared from my life now), but that combination of things rarely happens.

    re losing out on whey protein, chocolate, and cheese. Proper dark chocolate is an alternative. Cheese, well, yeah, losing cheese would kinda suck cos tasty. Whey protein, most of the population don't consume this anyway as far as i know? but, then again, most of the population aren't lifting heavy weights or gym training either.


    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    - I lost 10 pounds after about a month (then my weight stabilized again). That was surprising, because at the time I was working out much more regularly, and I try to gain (muscle) weight when I lift. But I went from 175 to 165 (FYI, I'm 6'0") without losing any strength, and a little gut that I struggled to get rid of suddenly disappeared.
    i know people who get this simply from removing cheese from their diet, it's apparently a common theme, and at least in part associated with the content of the food that accompanies the cheese...

    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    -One interesting anecdote - about 5 months after my wife and I went no-dairy, we went on our honeymoon to Italy. Both of us agreed that we weren't going to bother avoiding dairy during that trip -- cappuccino, gelato, great cheeses, cheesy pasta dishes, authentic pizza, tiramisu, were all fair game. Despite eating some dairy practically every day for 2 weeks, we didn't notice any of the normal side effects. Maybe their dairy is healthier than what we have in the US (and probably locally sourced from a nearby farm)?
    this is fascinating. I wonder what impact simply being outside and/or active a lot more than normal has/had in all of this?
    Last edited by daven; 03-31-2013 at 10:32 PM.
  23. #23
    Agnes, We have very different beliefs and I won't actually have this discussion. Not here or anywhere in type. I don't discuss religion with the religious or nutrition with vegetarian/vegans. I can almost guarantee that courtie is getting more protein than you without the whey. Her question I hope is for her to replace her protein shakes that she is drinking above her normal food intake in order to get more low fat, low carb, complete protein to add to her diet. Neither nuts, seeds or pea protein will serve this purpose. I do believe that hemp may be a good choice, as will egg albumin. But hopefully not soy or some other poor excuse for high bioavailable amino acids.
    Last edited by jyms; 03-31-2013 at 10:15 PM.
  24. #24
    Thanks for the input daven but please don't let this thread turn into an argument for or against veganism. I don't have the energy to read our discuss this with someone drinking the koolaid
  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Thanks for the input daven but please don't let this thread turn into an argument for or against veganism. I don't have the energy to read our discuss this with someone drinking the koolaid
    makes sense, I'll edit my post to get rid of the points in my post responding to vegan stuff
  26. #26
    No its cool, you make good points. I just don't want to start with posting a bunch of China study vs paleo vs keto stuff. I just know how things can derail quick with the veggy crowd. I just really want some non veggie thoughts on quitting dairy from a health aspect.
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Agnes, We have very different beliefs and I won't actually have this discussion. Not here or anywhere in type. I don't discuss religion with the religious or nutrition with vegetarian/vegans. I can almost guarantee that courtie is getting more protein than you without the whey. Her question I hope is for her to replace her protein shakes that she is drinking above her normal food intake in order to get more low fat, low carb, complete protein to add to her diet. Neither nuts, seeds or pea protein will serve this purpose. I do believe that hemp may be a good choice, as will egg albumin. But hopefully not soy or some other poor excuse for high bioavailable amino acids.
    We'll agree to disagree on whether more protein is better, and what constitutes good protein. I still think consuming too much protein isn't good for you, and if our definitions of "too much protein" differ, then that's fine.
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post
    this is fascinating. I wonder what impact simply being outside and/or active a lot more than normal has/had in all of this?
    At that time, I was working out regularly (and had been for years) and I lived in downtown Chicago, so I walked around a decent amount on a daily basis. So there wasn't a drastic change in the amount of exercise during my honeymoon, although the composition changed -- instead of hitting the gym during that time, I was walking even more than normal.
  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    There's actually no nutritional value to dairy products. They're all just fat and calories.
    FYI Agnes, I'm pretty sure this is the part of your post that jyms considers "propaganda". If you're going to make a claim that dairy has no nutritional value, you need to follow it up with verifiable facts to support your claim. Instead, you follow it up with an obviously incorrect statement -- considering that about a quarter of milk's calories come from a complete protein, calling it "just fat and calories" is misleading at best.

    It's tough to convey tone in a post like this, so I also want to add that I'm not trying to be mean or rude. I'm just trying to point out how a person can take an argument that might have valid points ("eliminating dairy from your diet may improve your health") but then completely turn your audience off by the presentation.
  30. #30
    Not to mention that I know vegans. I know what has been drilled into them and what they take as face value. Mentioning such low values for protein requirements without factors as age, activity levels, body weight, age or gender is just plain ignorance of nutrition. To think a 20 yr old male professional football player weighing 300 lbs and a 48yr old housewife weighing 120lbs needing the same amounts of protein is just wrong. Also mentioning beans as a protein source when they are not completely bioavailable and lack essential amino acids and having to add grains is something vegans forget. Lastly, daven touched on some of the osteoporosis argument, but there is so much more.
    Last edited by jyms; 04-01-2013 at 12:03 AM.
  31. #31
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    A reasonable debate could be had about whether or not humans should drink cow milk but saying dairy has no nutritional value and is just fat and calories is hilariously wrong. Milk has rock solid protein content (whey and casein), has far more micronutrients than just calcium, and turns out to rehydrate better than mass marketed sugar water... errr, sports drinks.

    That's just one example of dairy of course. I'm just using milk as an example as it seems like it's the most hotly contested dairy product.

    Same poster goes on to say that nuts are a good source of protein, which is ironic to say the least. It's also something I have heard countless times over the years. Nuts are good, I eat nuts, but when you look at the actual macronutrient composition and percentage of calories from protein and quality of most plant-based sources of protein, it's turns out to be not such a good protein source after all.
  32. #32
    But what about the 48 year old housewives weighing 300 lbs?
  33. #33
    Not my type. But god's honest truth, my wife's 2 best friends are vegetarian for 15 yrs are both 40's and over 250 each., and could be closer to 300 than 250
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Not to mention that I know vegans. I know what has been drilled into them and what they take as face value. Mentioning such low values for protein requirements without factors as age, activity levels, body weight, age or gender is just plain ignorance of nutrition. To think a 20 yr old male professional football player weighing 300 lbs and a 48yr old housewife weighing 120lbs needing the same amounts of protein is just wrong. Also mentioning beans as a protein source when they are not completely bioavailable and lack essential amino acids and having to add grains is something vegans forget. Lastly, daven touched on some of the osteoporosis argument, but there is so much more.
    Perhaps the vegans you know may be taking things at face value and may just be blindly following somebody else's doctrine, but please don't lump me in to that category. We've never met, so you don't know why I've made this decision or what research I've done on the issue. Maybe those vegans you know aren't thinking this through, but that's not all vegans.

    I have never said that age, activity levels, body weight, or gender etc. had nothing to do with how much protein you should be getting per day. I never argued that a 20 yr old male professional football player weighing 300 lbs and a 48yr old housewife weighing 120lbs need the same amount of protein per day. The closest I came to such an argument is saying that adult women need 46 grams per day (which I suggested for courtie because I think we can assume she is an adult women). I got that stat from the CDC, or are they vegan propaganda also? Link: http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyon...s/protein.html

    All I said was that consuming too much protein is bad for you, that most people are consuming more protein than they need, and that I am perfectly fine with fewer grams of protein. No one has countered any of these by showing that consuming too much is good, or that most people aren't consuming more protein than recommended, or that I need much more protein than I am consuming right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukie View Post
    Same poster goes on to say that nuts are a good source of protein, which is ironic to say the least. It's also something I have heard countless times over the years. Nuts are good, I eat nuts, but when you look at the actual macronutrient composition and percentage of calories from protein and quality of most plant-based sources of protein, it's turns out to be not such a good protein source after all.
    Okay, a 6-ounce broiled porterhouse steak has about 40 grams worth of protein, which is much more than the 18 grams a cup of cooked lentils. Source: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein/

    If "good protein source" is simply based on how many grams of protein is has, then the steak wins. If it's based on percentage of calories from proteins, then the steak wins too.

    However, the steak has saturated fat. The lentils don't. Beans are also an excellent source of fiber, copper, phosphorus, manganese and magnesium. The steak doesn't have any of those things. One might need more beans to fulfill the daily requirement of protein, but one is also getting a lot of other things s/he do need and none of the saturated fat s/he doesn't need. This blows the macronutrient argument out of the water.

    And how does the fact that you need to eat beans with other things make them a bad source of protein? Who just eats plain beans and nothing else with them, or just beans for an entire day? No one eats a steak or a chicken all by itself, so why does that count against the plant sources of protein and not against the meat sources?

    It seems that it comes down to the fact that we differ in our definitions of "good sources of protein" and "too much protein."
  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    I've heard good things about hemp proteins. I have no experience with any non dairy powders except egg albumin back in the day and it was not good trading and only mixed with a blender. I was using Cocoa and sometimes sugar orsweetener
    What is it about the whey protein that is causing my skin problems? Do you think I could take a whey isolate, or would that not solve my problem? I'm not exactly sure what filtering the whey actually removes. If it just removes the lactose, is it safe to assume that it wouldn't help my skin problems?

    I don't know a lot about what I'm talking about, as you can see, so hopefully my question makes sense :P
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  36. #36
    not wanting to derail the topic too far with the vegetarian/vegan vs meat eating lifestyle but vegetarians/veganss probably don't realise that they are hypocrits.

    I remember in one of my lectures years ago at uni a prof saying that all sources of vitamin B12 were animal derived and in the light of what agnes was saying up above i thought i'd check out whether thats still the case or whether it is now manufactured . http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/focus/nut...ls/vitamin.htm and scroll down to the box out about vegetarians and B12.

    Which are the two main sources that are advocated for vegetarians to use ? eggs and dairy. Of those ,milk is something animals produce intended as a food source for their young whereas the eggs are intended to propagate the species.Ethically, milk should be the preferred source of B12 from the two if you want to avoid eating animals/potential animals.It also completely debunks your first two sentences in the following quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnes
    There's actually no nutritional value to dairy products. They're all just fat and calories. Sure, milk and yogurt may have calcium. However, the US is third in the world in milk consumption (behind India and the EU), but has the highest rates of osteoporosis. Even though osteoporosis is caused by a variety of factors, if calcium was such the silver bullet that's been claimed for so long, then our rates should be much lower.
    the rest of the quote is just such bad science that i find it difficult to beleive comes from a scientists wife. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ood-wrong.html . Why did i include that link. read through it ." Whole milk is roughly 4% fat and skimmed and semi skimmed drop down to about 2.5 and 1% fat which are hardly the fat reservoirs that many people imagine them to be. Sure if you go to cream then it is high fat. Why is skimmed milk so bad...because you are also removing the fat soluble vitamins and vitamin D in particular is associated with regulating the calcium cycle within the body.
    This is quite important in dairying as after calving there is a high demand for calcium which the cows body supplies by removing it from the bones. Calcium uptake from the food is usually very low levels in the period before calving and takes a while for the cow 's intestines to switch from a low absorbtion of calcium to increasing the absorbtion to satisfy the calcium required for milk production. THis can lead to a low calcium level in the blood and "milk fever ". This can be prevented by feeding low calcium feed sources in the period before calving so that the cows is in a calcium absorbtion state so that at calving they can then be switched onto a high calcium diet and the cows is able to absorb that calcium and maintain blood calcium levels without having to resort to breaking down calcium stored in the bones.

    What difference does that make. Well humans have the same issues , just in much smaller quantities. Vitamin D helps regulate the calcium cycle in bone production (rickets) and using semi skimmed/skimmed milk is removing a source of vitamin D. You went on to say that usa had third highest consumption of milk in the world but the highest rates of Osteoporosis. A lot of US/europeans automatically have this "whole milk is high fat and you should be using skimmed milk " attitude. by doing so they are removing the part of the milk which benefits bone strength. Also if people are eating too much calcium , the bodies ability to absorb calcium will also be lowered.
    Also look at the other causes of Oteoporosis. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Osteopo...es/Causes.aspx . Heavy drinking and smoking are one of the causes and levels of each in the US and europe are quite high. Corticosteroid use is also another high risk and western lifestyles have lead to increasing amounts of asthma in their populations and the resulting corticosteroid treatments.other causes are malabsorbtion resulting from coeliac and chrons diseases which also seem to be a result of a western lifestyle.
    What does that mean , well if you take away the vitamins that control calcium deposition in to the bone and /or you have a western lifestyle which leads you to not absorb the calcium you do eat efficiently or the lifestyle results in ailments that may require treatments that may result in weakened bones fix those other issues before saying that milk is a bad source of calcium.
  37. #37
    Thanks Keith. I agree 100%.glad you typed it out. I guess the main reason I didn't want to have this debate is I'm doing a lot of surfing on FTR from my phone and don't want to have to cross link info and be the sole source of information against veganism. You and daven seem more than capable so far. I week just wait till she cites the China study, then we will close this thread hehe.

    Courtie, there could be a lot of things effecting the skin, I would first remove Whey completely, then you will be able to decide what if any types of protein powders you will be able to add back in. From what I've read, casein, lactose or additives could all be an issue. For me, I'm hoping to isolate dairy as the cause, then systematically adding things back to narrow the cause
  38. #38
    I hope this thread doesn't get locked, and I hope you update us after your experiment. I'm genuinely curious how it goes for you, and whether you're able to further isolate the problem down to a specific component of milk.
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ood-wrong.html . Why did i include that link. read through it ." Whole milk is roughly 4% fat and skimmed and semi skimmed drop down to about 2.5 and 1% fat which are hardly the fat reservoirs that many people imagine them to be.
    Whole milk might be 4% fat by volume but it's almost 50% by calorie count, which definitely makes it a high fat food (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...-products/69/2).

    Your vitamin D comments are dead-on, though -- most people have a pretty severe vitamin D deficiency, and that causes a whole host of problems (including contributing to osteoporisis). I take a vitamin D supplement (as D3, which is the most effective form for supplements), because I know I don't get enough normally. When you get your blood levels checks at your normal doctor visits, you should ask if they can check your D level, too -- ideally, you should be between 80-100 nG/ML.
  40. #40
    I wouldn't lock it, I just wanted to be the first to mention the China study scam before the vegans. I'm hoping it's a lactose or even Whey, because casein tolerance will leave me cheese, butter and even casein protein powder which is actually a better all around protein in many ways.
  41. #41
    I think the fact that I'm vegan automatically screamed to everyone that I was full of BS. Perhaps you know vegans who are full of it, but we've never met and it's not cool to throw on a stereotype or to presume I'm a certain way because I am vegan.

    Yes, all current sources of B12 are animal based. Soy milk and vegan-friendly alternatives come fortified with B12 (energy drinks are fortified with it as well), much like how orange juice and other food/drink is fortified with this and that. That first thing about B12 seems to suggest that I'm a hypocrite and might be chugging 2% on the side while claiming to be vegan and fighting against milk. Remember that vegans and vegetarians are not the same. Vegans don't eat eggs or dairy as well as meat (the stricter ones actually avoid oils too), so that box doesn't quite apply since it also recommends B12-fortified foods that are also vegan-friendly.

    I acknowledged that osteoporosis is caused by a variety of factors. All I said was that milk and yogurt are championed as the prevention measure for osteoporosis, but when you look at consumption rates and disease rates, they're both high. Does correlation equal causation? No. Is it worth a second thought? I think so.

    Jyms, I'm not gonna give you the pleasure. I'm not going to cite the China study. Close the thread now if you want.
  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    Okay, a 6-ounce broiled porterhouse steak has about 40 grams worth of protein, which is much more than the 18 grams a cup of cooked lentils. Source: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein/

    If "good protein source" is simply based on how many grams of protein is has, then the steak wins. If it's based on percentage of calories from proteins, then the steak wins too.

    However, the steak has saturated fat. The lentils don't. Beans are also an excellent source of fiber, copper, phosphorus, manganese and magnesium. The steak doesn't have any of those things. One might need more beans to fulfill the daily requirement of protein, but one is also getting a lot of other things s/he do need and none of the saturated fat s/he doesn't need. This blows the macronutrient argument out of the water.

    And how does the fact that you need to eat beans with other things make them a bad source of protein? Who just eats plain beans and nothing else with them, or just beans for an entire day? No one eats a steak or a chicken all by itself, so why does that count against the plant sources of protein and not against the meat sources?

    It seems that it comes down to the fact that we differ in our definitions of "good sources of protein" and "too much protein."
    note how you had originally said beans and nuts were good sources of protein, I singled out nuts for an obvious reason, then you went on to breakdown beans/lentils instead

    http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/3138/2

    walnuts, good source of monounsaturated fats, omega 3 fats (albeit ALA and not the preferred EPA/DHA), lot of good micronutrition, but <10% protein by calories.

    The reason I had originally pointed this out is quite literally I know a lot of people, typically females, who think that having some nuts or peanut butter is all the protein they need for a meal and might be one of the highest protein containing foods they eat on a regular basis. Which brings me to another point, a lot of people in general don't know what any of the numbers on a nutrition label mean let alone how to read an ingredient list.
  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    I hope this thread doesn't get locked, and I hope you update us after your experiment. I'm genuinely curious how it goes for you, and whether you're able to further isolate the problem down to a specific component of milk.
    There's no reason to lock this thread. In fact there it's very rare that a thread should be locked ever IMO
  44. #44
    That is the whole point of my hypocrisy comment . You cannot have a "vegan friendly" food if it has B12 added to it because that B12 is a byproduct of animal slaughter industry. You cannot get around it , you need animals to die to provide that B12 to prevent you becoming aneamic. You are just choosing to eat a very small part of an animal instead of the larger part that the rest of the population eats.

    I also want to make it clear that i'm not anti vegan or anti vegetarian. If you choose not to eat meat that is your own choice but if you are that dedicated , avoid the foods with the B12 supplementation and accept the resulting detrimental health problems resulting from your ethical choice rather than being a hypocrit and eating that little bit of animal that prevents you becoming ill.

    All I said was that milk and yogurt are championed as the prevention measure for osteoporosis, but when you look at consumption rates and disease rates, they're both high. Does correlation equal causation? No. Is it worth a second thought? I think so.
    Again this is all propaganda. How do you know that the high milk product intakes aren't reducing the levels of osteoporosis that would be present if those intakes were reduced. Many of the known causes of osteoporosis are associated with a western lifestyle. You could make the same correlation statements about any aspect of a western lifestyle , from car driving , to office work , to hours of telly watched per week.

    compare a western person who is likely to have an office job,be overweight,drive to work ,eat a diet high in processed foods with multiple additives added to those foods with an african person who is more likely to be doing manual labour, not be overweight and eating a diet mainly of freshly prepared foods without all the additives and preservatives . In your expert opinion you think it is best to target a single dietary ingredient in the above peoples lives as the cause of higher osteoporosis in the western population compared to the african .

    Do you think it possible that all the additives and preservatives in a western diet may be contributing to the dietary problems that can lead to osteoporosis. Or that the shift in economic output from a manual labour/agricultural based economy to a office /technology based economy may result in less sunlight exposure leading to lower natural vitamin D production , leading to lower calcium retention by the body may be a cause of higher osteoporosis in a western society. Or that much like exercise helps to increase the amount and strength of your muscles , excercise may help to increase the amount and strength of your bones as well and that the sedentary lifestyle that afflicts westerners may therefore also contribute to weaker bones and increased osteoporosis.
    Its easy to extrapolate out from the known causes of osteoporosis and come up with the possible causes i just listed . Its bone idle propaganda to say x is high and b is high therefore x causes b which is the sum total of your argument.
  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    It seems that it comes down to the fact that we differ in our definitions of "good sources of protein" and "too much protein."
    yup.

    the 46g/day number you quoted is basically a number for sedentary females to avoid serious deficincies and structural problems. For those who have body composition and/or athletic performance goals the number is far too low. I defer you to perhaps every single knowledgeable/respected person in those respective fields
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightGizmo View Post
    I hope this thread doesn't get locked, and I hope you update us after your experiment. I'm genuinely curious how it goes for you, and whether you're able to further isolate the problem down to a specific component of milk.
    this
  47. #47
    but if you are that dedicated , avoid the foods with the B12 supplementation and accept the resulting detrimental health problems resulting from your ethical choice rather than being a hypocrit and eating that little bit of animal that prevents you becoming ill
    Does it have to be an all-or-nothing type dealio? I can fairly easily see a "less meat is better than more meat" argument (not saying I'm necessarily of that persuasion, but I'm equally not of the no-meat-at-all persuasion)
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    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    I think the fact that I'm vegan automatically screamed to everyone that I was full of BS.
    nope, I didn't even know you were vegan until you started spouting about it. I decided 'full of BS' based on the second paragraph of your first post (I have quoted the whole post below.) After reading the first paragraph i was thinking 'nice contribution', but then...

    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    FYI for chocolate lovers: dark chocolate actually doesn't contain any milk products (not the Hershey's stuff, but the higher end brands for sure). It may say cocoa butter on the back, but cocoa butter isn't dairy-based.

    There's actually no nutritional value to dairy products. They're all just fat and calories. Sure, milk and yogurt may have calcium. However, the US is third in the world in milk consumption (behind India and the EU), but has the highest rates of osteoporosis. Even though osteoporosis is caused by a variety of factors, if calcium was such the silver bullet that's been claimed for so long, then our rates should be much lower.
    also, i deleted the content of my early post in this thread to remove the rebuttals to your ridiculous 'no nutritional value to dairy' and calcium vs osteoporosis points.

    also, i repeat my question from the pm (i won't quote the pm you replied with unless you say it's ok)

    Originally Posted by daven
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by agnesamurphy
    You don't need to worry about getting enough either. Most people actually consume too much protein in their diets, which is especially bad since our bodies do not store protein. Adult women need about 46 grams a day, and the typically person actually consumes about 60 grams a day.

    'too much', suggests an excess amount that has a negative effect or impact.

    ok, so if we don't store excess protein, then eating more than the required amount isn't a problem, right? so it isn't 'too much', right? if you can't address these two questions intelligently then maybe you should re-think a few things.

    Also, an fyi re my views on veganism. My most regular running partner (until i broke my arse we typically clocked up two runs a week, = between 20 and 35km a week) is vegan. And intelligent. We talk about food a bit, because we're both really into food. I have my reasons for not being vegan, she has hers for being vegan. We are both pretty well informed on this stuff and there is mutual respect for the decisions - i had a bbq here on wednesday, and provided a whole bunch of gluten free vegan burgers that i had made from scratch that arvo to complement the wild trout, wild perch, wild venison, and dirty store-bought sausages. I hang out with people with a range of dietary preferences cos i hang out with a range of people. I don't think 'vegans are full of BS' and your claim that i do think like this offends me. I do think that 'people who make BS stupid claims are more likely than average to be full of BS.'
    Last edited by daven; 04-01-2013 at 02:49 PM.
  49. #49
    I knew she was vegan by the first post and is why I called her out. My biggest concern for this thread though was not that it would turn into a for or against argument but that I wanted it to be clear, I'm not anti dairy, but I think it could be the source of my ills but it's hard to find a non began view on this. I am very pro meat, and also a whole foody, I think most of the western world problems could be solved with more saturated fat, more protein and less carbs (sans fruit and veggies) more movement, more sun (vit D) and you may find it will do wonders for those stats
  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    I am very pro meat, and also a whole foody, I think most of the western world problems could be solved with more saturated fat, more protein and less carbs (sans fruit and veggies) more movement, more sun (vit D) and you may find it will do wonders for those stats
    we have similar views on this, in that i also think that a lot of the physical health problems manifesting themselves in the western world could be solved with healthier diets, more activity and exercise, and more time outside - add to this list less tv and computer time as recreation and we could start addressing some of the other types of health issues as well. We perhaps disagree on what 'healthier diet' might mean, not sure about that one.
  51. #51
    I don't believe in one healthy diet actually. I do believe in some very strong ideas though depending on whether we are talking about healthy, obese, sedentary or athletic individuals.
  52. #52
    I was just guessing in the post i made regarding exercise and bone strength, do you know any facts either way regarding that .. I.e if you exercise more do you end up with more bone mass and higher bone density than if you don't exercise
  53. #53
    Short answer, you need to do resistance exercise for benifits. Anything that causes a compression in the spine or joints will help the body strengthen bones. I'm not going to search it out because it's old but they have studied simple things like Bouncing on a mini trampoline, or skipping is enough to make considerable changes in bone densities.
  54. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by kiwiMark View Post
    Does it have to be an all-or-nothing type dealio? I can fairly easily see a "less meat is better than more meat" argument (not saying I'm necessarily of that persuasion, but I'm equally not of the no-meat-at-all persuasion)
    When you are a vegan "fighting against milk" to use her words from another of her posts then you either are a vegan or you are an animal byproducts eater. And if you are a Vegan then you're either stupid to believe that b12 fortification of foods is vegan friendly or a hypocrit
  55. #55
    Yeah okay strong point, if you tone down the extremes of your actions you also gotta tone down the extremes of your crusade
  56. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Short answer, you need to do resistance exercise for benifits. Anything that causes a compression in the spine or joints will help the body strengthen bones. I'm not going to search it out because it's old but they have studied simple things like Bouncing on a mini trampoline, or skipping is enough to make considerable changes in bone densities.
    so the logical extension of that is that if you have a sedentary population that drives to work , drives to the shops , sits at a desk all day and sits at home watching telly all evening then its no wonder that you get high osteoporosis rates in that population.
  57. #57
    Astronauts have huge issues with bone density losses and muscle atrophy and it is a direct effect of weightlessness.

    https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...IuXCR7JZrLFsjA
    Last edited by jyms; 04-01-2013 at 04:18 PM.
  58. #58
    gyms I've not read through the entire thread but thought I'd throw my 2 cents. I pretty much went dairy free about 9 months ago and don't regret it at all. I use almond milk for things like protein shakes etc. Very rarely do I eat any cheese but on occassion I will. I really love ice cream but have found some great alternatives such as coconut ice cream. I have really noticed a big difference in my overall health partially attributed to this change no doubt.
    "You start the game with a full pot o’ luck and an empty pot o’ experience...
    The object is to fill the pot of experience before you empty the pot of luck."

    Quote Originally Posted by XxStacksxX View Post
    Do you have testicles? If so, learn to bet like it
  59. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Astronauts have huge issues with bone density losses and muscle atrophy and it is a direct effect of weightlessness.

    https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...IuXCR7JZrLFsjA
    so eat more cheeseburgers to put on the pounds to have stronger bones!
  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwiMark View Post
    so eat more cheeseburgers to put on the pounds to have stronger bones!
    Between the wheat flour in most buns, sugar in ketchup, dairy/cheese, and saturated fat in red meat, you have enough ammo to piss everybody off.

    Now that I think about it, using the word ammo probably pissed some people off too.

    Me, I love a good cheeseburger, especially with some beers. I'm back on a Newcastle kick (shoutout to Gabe.) I do try to lay off the fries though...

    Jyms, sorry for further derailing your thread.
  61. #61
    It's cool. I love hearing some people's opinions on these things. I'm only on day one so there isn't much for me to discuss at the moment. I will say, maybe to spark discussion, but I've never been as anti saturated fat as a lot of people here. I'm of the belief that nature works in very efficient ways, and our bodies can use saturated fat easily as fuel when we are fat adapted. The reason we store all of our fast as saturated fat and not as mono or poly fat is about efficiency. We are meant to store and burn saturated fats, so eating them is not bad when they come from natural sources.
  62. #62
    daven's got me wishing I was back home with dirty supermarket sausages. what is it with this corner (side?) of the world's decision that only pig shall be made into sausages, they're far from the best animal for this
  63. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Lukie View Post
    note how you had originally said beans and nuts were good sources of protein, I singled out nuts for an obvious reason, then you went on to breakdown beans/lentils instead
    I grant I did make the mistake of mixing up beans and nuts. It was 1 a.m. when I wrote that. I didn't realize it until after I wrote it and went to bed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    That is the whole point of my hypocrisy comment . You cannot have a "vegan friendly" food if it has B12 added to it because that B12 is a byproduct of animal slaughter industry. You cannot get around it , you need animals to die to provide that B12 to prevent you becoming aneamic. You are just choosing to eat a very small part of an animal instead of the larger part that the rest of the population eats.

    I also want to make it clear that i'm not anti vegan or anti vegetarian. If you choose not to eat meat that is your own choice but if you are that dedicated , avoid the foods with the B12 supplementation and accept the resulting detrimental health problems resulting from your ethical choice rather than being a hypocrit and eating that little bit of animal that prevents you becoming ill.
    This argument that B12 supplements and fortifications are made from cow fat, which isn't true at all. A synthetic form exists, and its this forms that's typically used in the supplements and fortifications. So, no hypocrisy here.
    Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin...otal_synthesis
    http://www.healthaliciousness.com/ar...itamin-B12.php

    Love the 'gotcha' questions. Keep them coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by daven View Post

    [/I]Also, an fyi re my views on veganism. My most regular running partner (until i broke my arse we typically clocked up two runs a week, = between 20 and 35km a week) is vegan. And intelligent. We talk about food a bit, because we're both really into food. I have my reasons for not being vegan, she has hers for being vegan. We are both pretty well informed on this stuff and there is mutual respect for the decisions - i had a bbq here on wednesday, and provided a whole bunch of gluten free vegan burgers that i had made from scratch that arvo to complement the wild trout, wild perch, wild venison, and dirty store-bought sausages. I hang out with people with a range of dietary preferences cos i hang out with a range of people. I don't think 'vegans are full of BS' and your claim that i do think like this offends me. I do think that 'people who make BS stupid claims are more likely than average to be full of BS.'
    I apologize for offending you on this and I do appreciate the pm discussion and the time to have a debate that's thoughtful and on point, without the use of insults or the threats of shutting out opinions that don't reflect the majority. Please understand that it's comments like the one above, the threats of closing the thread, and the intention to call me out that make me think I'm singled out and quickly discredited because I am vegan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    compare a western person who is likely to have an office job,be overweight,drive to work ,eat a diet high in processed foods with multiple additives added to those foods with an african person who is more likely to be doing manual labour, not be overweight and eating a diet mainly of freshly prepared foods without all the additives and preservatives . In your expert opinion you think it is best to target a single dietary ingredient in the above peoples lives as the cause of higher osteoporosis in the western population compared to the african.
    Yes, I do. Here's why:

    Women have a higher incidence of osteoporosis. Source: http://www.iofbonehealth.org/facts-statistics

    As a woman, I have been told by physicians, by articles, by the media etc. that milk and yogurt and cheese are the way to go to prevent osteoporosis. I have been told that is what I need to do to build strong bones in my future children. More calcium has been championed as the solution by many.

    Men may not have been given that message, but understand that this is the message women are getting and why I think it is important to think about this one factor. When one factor is acclaimed and highlighted as the silver bullet to preventing a chronic disease, like calcium has toward women, then the claims should be evaluated and given a second thought.

    I acknowledge that many things can contribute to osteoporosis, and it's not just a calcium deficiency. With that said, is more calcium the solution, when so many things can contribute? Is it the best solution, or the only solution? Those are the only questions that I am asking, and what I want others to at least consider.

    I admit that I was wrong to say that milk and other diary products are just fat and calories. I didn't make my point well, and this has primarily caused this entire mess.
  64. #64
    Expecting doctors to give good advice on nutrition is like having them advise you on which car to buy. They know nothing more than what most people do.
  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    It's cool. I love hearing some people's opinions on these things. I'm only on day one so there isn't much for me to discuss at the moment. I will say, maybe to spark discussion, but I've never been as anti saturated fat as a lot of people here. I'm of the belief that nature works in very efficient ways, and our bodies can use saturated fat easily as fuel when we are fat adapted. The reason we store all of our fast as saturated fat and not as mono or poly fat is about efficiency. We are meant to store and burn saturated fats, so eating them is not bad when they come from natural sources.
    Yeah, it seems like we agree on most important things relating to diet and fitness, and when we don't it's usually something minor and because I'm being overly nitpicky. It is rather odd though when someone chooses to avoid perfectly normal cuts of meat due to saturated fat/health reasons but then goes and eats heavily processed foods with cheap vegetable oils/partially hydrogenated oils and that kind of stuff.
  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    the rest of the quote is just such bad science that i find it difficult to beleive comes from a scientists wife.
    That's not how science works, bitches.
    @ so many inappropriate funnies, that come to mind, though.

    Also, you must be single, Keith, or you would know that I'm the one person in the world she doesn't listen to.

    Oh, and I don't eat insects, because they're filthy and gross, but I like honey. I'd go so far as to say, "Honey is delicious; if you don't like honey, then wtf is wrong with you?" I'll just own that hypocrisy and leave the cognitive dissonance to...

    *shrug* what were we talking about? Oh yeah.

    I love the notion of experimenting on yourself, for the sake of experimentation leading to better living. I suggest keeping a journal of what your hypotheses are and working your way through it like a zen master. (It occurs to me that zen masters may or may not keep journals, so grain of salt there.)
  67. #67
    Food non sequitur: Eat more sardines.

    (No, seriously. They aren't highly touted, which is probably why I didn't know about them until recently but they're nutrient dense...an excellent source of B12 and Omega-3s, without all that deadly mercury build-up you get with large predatory fatty fish like salmon and tuna.)
  68. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post

    This argument that B12 supplements and fortifications are made from cow fat, which isn't true at all. A synthetic form exists, and its this forms that's typically used in the supplements and fortifications. So, no hypocrisy here.
    Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin...otal_synthesis
    http://www.healthaliciousness.com/ar...itamin-B12.php

    Love the 'gotcha' questions. Keep them coming.
    Where did i ever say that the vitamin B12 comes from cow fat? Its usually extracted from cow livers where its in much higher concentrations. Its also surprising that you chose to highlight the synthetic B12 cyanocobalamin as highlighted in the first line describing the molecule in the wiki link you provided.
    molecule

    The core of the molecule vitamin B12 (cobalamin) is a corrin structure (depicted in red) with at its center a cobalt ion. Several vitamins exist with different cobalt ligands but the total synthesis concerned the one with a cyano ligand called cyanocobalamin.
    and heres some interesting information about the form that you choose to demonstrate your point.


    One of the pitfalls of pursuing a healthy diet is that we are sometimes blind to nutrients we may be missing. And in the world of healthy eating, one of the most common nutrient deficiencies involves vitamin B-12, a crucial nutrient for nerve health and the construction of red blood cells that carry oxygen throughout your body.

    Vitamin B-12 deficiency is especially common among vegetarians and vegans, but it's also surprisingly common in meat eaters, too. Why? Because vitamin B-12 can only be absorbed in the small intestine, and due to common intestinal ailments, even many meat eaters who consume high levels of B-12 are unable to absorb it in their gut.

    This leads to a series of seemingly "mystery" health symptoms that actually have a simple common cause: Vitamin B-12 deficiency!

    Symptoms of B-12 deficiency

    B-12 deficiency is shockingly widespread. Studies now show that up to 40% of the population may be deficient in vitamin B-12 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7595423.stm).

    Here are some of the most common symptoms of deficiency (do you experience any of these?):

    * Chest pain or shortness of breath
    * Fatigue or unexplained weakness
    * Dizziness, trouble with balance, and fainting
    * Confusion, memory loss or dementia
    * Coldness, numbness or tingling in the hands and feet
    * Slow reflexes or diminished nervous system function
    * Pale skin or yellowing of the skin
    * Sore mouth and tongue

    ... in addition, vitamin B-12 deficiency can actually cause brain shrinkage, according to a University of Oxford study (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7595423.stm). Although more work needs to be done, research is already suggesting a link between vitamin B-12 deficiency and Alzheimer's.

    If you (or someone you know) shows any of the symptoms listed above, I urge you to immediately investigate vitamin B-12 and determine if a deficiency in this nutrient may be causing your symptoms!

    Again, vitamin B-12 deficiency is especially common in vegans and vegetarians because typical vitamin B-12 sources (meats, yogurt, etc.) are simply not present in their diets. But even meat eaters can be deficient in B-12 due to poor digestion. This is especially true for older people who suffer a diminished ability to absorb nutrients in their small intestine.

    In addition, diabetes medications and even pain pills can interfere with B-12 absorption, and intestinal parasites can also strongly block its absorption in the gut.

    Solutions for vitamin B-12

    Traditionally, people who are deficient in vitamin B-12 have received injections of B-12. This is extremely effective because it bypasses the digestive tract and goes right into the bloodstream. But it has one obvious downside: It requires being injected! So most people aren't interested in this method.

    Instead, most people supplement their vitamin B-12 using nutritional supplements. But here's where this can go wrong: The most commonly available form of vitamin B-12 on the market is the cheap synthetic form that's actually bound to a cyanide molecule (yes, cyanide, the poison). It's called cyanocobalamin, and you'll find it in all the cheap vitamins made by pharmaceutical companies and sold at grocery stores and big box stores.

    Action item: If you have any vitamin B-12 supplements, check the ingredients label right now to see what form of vitamin B-12 they contain. If they contain cyanocobalamin, throw them out!

    Cyanocobalamin is a cheap, synthetic chemical made in a laboratory. It's virtually impossible for you to find this form in nature. Low-end vitamin manufacturers use it because it can be bought in bulk and added to products with claims that they "contain vitamin B-12!" What they don't tell you is that the vitamin is bound to a toxic, poisonous cyanide molecule that must then be removed from your body by your liver. Cyanocobalamin is also up to 100 times cheaper than the higher quality methylcobalamin which we'll talk about below.

    As Wikipedia explains: "A common synthetic form of the vitamin, cyanocobalamin, does not occur in nature, but is used in many pharmaceuticals and supplements, and as a food additive, because of its lower cost. In the body it is converted to the physiological forms, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin, leaving behind the cyanide..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12)

    Removing the cyanide molecule from the vitamin and then flushing it out of your body requires using up so-called "methyl groups" of molecules in your body that are needed to fight things like homocysteine (high levels cause heart disease). By taking low-quality cyanobalamin, you're actually stealing methyl groups from your body and making it do more work at the biochemical level. This uses up substances such as glutathione that are often in short supply anyway, potentially worsening your overall health situation rather than helping it. This is one of the reasons why low-grade vitamins may actually be worse for your body than taking nothing at all!

    Cyanocobalamin, in summary, is a low-grade, low-quality and slightly toxic (cyanide) form of vitamin B-12 that's used by all the cheap vitamin manufacturers. I recommend avoiding it completely. It won't kill you to take it, of course, but there's a better solution for B-12.

    The better choice: Methylcobalamin

    The proper form of vitamin B-12 to supplement is called methylcobalamin. This is the form that exists in nature, and it is pre-methylated, meaning it's ready for your biochemistry to put to immediate use. Methylcobalamin has several key advantages over cyanocobalamin:

    * Increased absorption
    * Better retention in tissues
    * Contains no toxic cyanide
    * Supports production of SAMe

    As explained by Ed Sharpe:

    "The coenzyme form of vitamin B12 is known as methylcobalamin or methyl B12. It's the only form of vitamin B12 which can directly participate in homocysteine metabolism. In addition, converting homocysteine to methionine via methyl B12 generates an increased supply of SAMe (S-adenosyl methionine), the body's most important methyl donor." (http://www.health101.org/art_methylcobalamin.htm)

    Every informed nutritionist knows that methylcobalamin is far superior to cyanocobalamin. That's why companies like Ola Loa (www.DrinkYourVitamins.com) use only the high-end "methyl" form of B-12.

    As you can see the cheap form of the synthetic form results in you having to excrete cyanide caused by the body breaking it down and converting it into a usable form and that conversion then leaves you deficient in other methyl groups which results in being in worse position health wise than not taking the synthetic B12 in the first place.




    Yes, I do. Here's why:

    Women have a higher incidence of osteoporosis. Source: http://www.iofbonehealth.org/facts-statistics

    As a woman, I have been told by physicians, by articles, by the media etc. that milk and yogurt and cheese are the way to go to prevent osteoporosis. I have been told that is what I need to do to build strong bones in my future children. More calcium has been championed as the solution by many.

    Men may not have been given that message, but understand that this is the message women are getting and why I think it is important to think about this one factor. When one factor is acclaimed and highlighted as the silver bullet to preventing a chronic disease, like calcium has toward women, then the claims should be evaluated and given a second thought.
    but you aren't giving it a second thought . You are going from an ethical standpoint that you hold and taking fact A and fact B and saying that because of fact B fact A is wrong. You are completely ignoring all of the other factors that can effect whether fact A will work or not. You want calcium from milk products to be THE solution. Or should i say , you don't want it to be THE solution because of your own personal lifestyle beliefs and the truth is that Calcium from milk products should be PART of THE solution.
    You also need to ensure that you have adequate vitamin D either from diet or sunshine exposure so that you can regulate your calcium absorbtion and bone deposition properly . If you don't you will lessen the efectiveness of the supplemental calcium.

    Similarly , if you have a sedentary lifestyle why will extra calcium have any effect, As Jyms explained above you need to exercise to promote the deposition of calcium into the bones to strengthen them,otherwise you eat the extra calcium and your bdy looks at it and says we've got enough to satisfy our current needs thanks and you flush it down the loo instead.

    ALso if you suffer from crohn/coeliac /other diseases which affect your ability to absorb the calcium you need to sort out those so that you can absorb the calcium in your diet.

    I acknowledge that many things can contribute to osteoporosis, and it's not just a calcium deficiency. With that said, is more calcium the solution, when so many things can contribute? Is it the best solution, or the only solution? Those are the only questions that I am asking, and what I want others to at least consider.
    No , i gave all those extra solutions earlier , you just persist in asking whether taking calcium in milk is the THE solution and refuse to admit that it is part of the solution because of your vegan lifestyle.Taking the extra calcium is part of the solution ,changing your environment is also part of the solution, whether thats by reducing household contributors that may cause asthma, ensuring that you get sufficient exercise, modifying the other parts of diet that may cause gut absorbtion problems.
    Minimise the causes of osteoporosis and use the sources of calcium as a whole approach to treating the problem rather than hoping for your magic one shot cure all.

    Quote Originally Posted by "MMM
    Also, you must be single, Keith, or you would know that I'm the one person in the world she doesn't listen to.
    Fraid not , married and totally used to the women's irrationality .
  69. #69
    Keith, that is the most detailed post I have seen on B12 I have seen. I usefully just point people to a few links explaining why supplementing with shitty B12 is not smart for anyone taking the high road when talking about vegan or vegetarian diets. I've tried to explain this before to no avail. You have given me some great links. I've always tried to use this argument to prove that began lifestyles are not the way someone conscious of health should eat. If it's an animal cruelty issue I don't see why you can't support ethical butchers and organic farmers for the sake of great health.
  70. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    Courtie, there could be a lot of things effecting the skin, I would first remove Whey completely, then you will be able to decide what if any types of protein powders you will be able to add back in. From what I've read, casein, lactose or additives could all be an issue. For me, I'm hoping to isolate dairy as the cause, then systematically adding things back to narrow the cause
    Thanks for the advice, I'll be taking it.

    This is a great thread! I'm learning a lot.
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  71. #71
    Yes, I don't drink cow's milk and that's a lifestyle choice that I've made. No, I don't want cow's milk and dairy products to be championed as the solution as they aren't the only things in the world that have calcium. No, I don't want it to be a part of my solution. Leafy greens and soy products also have calcium too. Does it matter why I think an alternative solution should at least be explored? Is it really such a crime to ask about the importance of calcium or why dairy's calcium gets precedent?

    If dairy are your main sources of calcium, then fine. If you think they should be part of the solution to osteoporosis, then fine. But, leafy green and soy products aren't given the same credit or consideration as a calcium source or as a solution in this problem. Is it really so bad to question why they aren't given that same consideration, or to consider the possibility that dairy products don't have to be part of the solution? Does it matter whether or not my veganism is the reason behind I ask these questions or make these considerations?

    Whether or not veganism is wrong doesn't affect whether or not asking the question or thinking about the solution in a different way is right or wrong.



    Okay, as a vegan, I'll accept that I don't vitamin B12 as easily. I'll accept my anemic, groggy fate as I don't get this vitamin or I consume the substandard synthetic version.

    However, when criticism goes the other way or a perspective is presented that goes against the standard way of eating, it's written off as hogwash and veganism propaganda. Half of this country is deficient in magnesium. 97% of Americans are short of potassium. 65% of Americans had diets deficient in vitamin K.

    Yes, vegans and vegetarians are more prone to a vitamin B12 deficiency, but non-vegans are deficient in things too. Unless 97% of America is now vegan, then the standard way of eating isn't perfect either. Why does B12 get held so strongly, but those other deficiencies don't matter? It's not like those deficiencies are minor, either.

    Singling out one nutrient deficiency doesn't automatically discount the entire diet, just like singling out a component to a solution's problem doesn't automatically discount the solution.

    Sources: http://news.menshealth.com/magnesium...cy/2012/03/28/
    http://www.sundrops.com/2012/supplem...-american-diet

    Therefore, there's no one way to eat right, or to get certain nutrients, or to have a health-conscious diet. Just like there isn't one way to get osteoporosis, or to prevent it. I'm not hoping for a one way to cure osteoporosis, or a one way to get protein, or to get calcium, or saying that there should be one way. I'm thinking about these ways differently, asking and presenting information to consider if there's another way or a better way. I'm wondering if the way most people do things, or what's considered, is the best way.
  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jyms View Post
    If it's an animal cruelty issue I don't see why you can't support ethical butchers and organic farmers for the sake of great health.
    i can understand your frustrations with vegans/vegetarians from a nutritionally-savvy persons perspective, but most who decide to embark on the vegan/veggo diet for ethical reasons have already decided that their own personal ethical concerns outweigh the pursuit of a "perfect" diet. i personally don't eat any meat, but you will never hear me say that i think abstinence from meat is an optimal dietary/nutritional move. it's just that i don't want to harm something capable of being harmed to get my food if i don't have to . i'm aware that this has a greater risk of nutritional deficiency than a diet which includes meat. but that's a trade-off that i'm currently happy to make.

    sorry i realise there have been efforts to keep "ethics" out of this scientific discussion, but i felt like that one point ought be made. hopefully not too sidetracking.
  73. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by agnesamurphy View Post
    Yes, vegans and vegetarians are more prone to a vitamin B12 deficiency, but non-vegans are deficient in things too. Unless 97% of America is now vegan, then the standard way of eating isn't perfect either. Why does B12 get held so strongly, but those other deficiencies don't matter? It's not like those deficiencies are minor, either.
    I don't think veganism should be or is being held up to the standard American diet (which is horrible) and is being criticized but rather is being compared to the ideal and that's where it falls short. You could very easily take the vegetarian concept of nutrient dense vegetables and replace some of the calories from carbs with meat, fish and animal fats and potentially have an ideal diet as far as overall health is concerned. Note that the portion in italics might be different for each individual and there might be other goals as well, like weight loss or gain - Jyms' goals and circumstances, for example, require considerations for additional protein he could never realistically get from vegetable protein sources - and this means everyone should know the science better and apply it specifically to themselves and their situation.

    If you have ethical reasons, by all means, do what you like. Frankly, I don't see how farming on any scale, even organic, isn't harmful to animals in terms of habitat destruction, soil degradation, food chain effect and other environmental concerns but people are generally good at rationalizing things to their own point of contentment.

    Jyms, I get the concern with missing out on whey protein but is the concern with cheese simply losing out on enjoying it or is it a nutrient issue?
  74. #74
    Oh, and I don't eat insects
    Bet you do! They're allowed a surprising number of insect parts per hundred in herbs and other stuff without having to make mention of it
  75. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by rpm View Post
    i can understand your frustrations with vegans/vegetarians from a nutritionally-savvy persons perspective, but most who decide to embark on the vegan/veggo diet for ethical reasons have already decided that their own personal ethical concerns outweigh the pursuit of a "perfect" diet. i personally don't eat any meat, but you will never hear me say that i think abstinence from meat is an optimal dietary/nutritional move. it's just that i don't want to harm something capable of being harmed to get my food if i don't have to . i'm aware that this has a greater risk of nutritional deficiency than a diet which includes meat. but that's a trade-off that i'm currently happy to make.

    sorry i realise there have been efforts to keep "ethics" out of this scientific discussion, but i felt like that one point ought be made. hopefully not too sidetracking.
    I think its a great post and highlights the difference between you and Agnes. You have made an ethical choice and accept the any dietary deficiencies as a result of that post. Agnes has made an ethical choice as well but has chosen to fight against people who don't share her views by misrepresenting information and trying to force her ethical choice onto others regardless of whether it is good or bad for their health.

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