Operation: Make 25NL the Floor

EDIT: Most of this still applies but I'm going to try to learn FR as it has been suggested to me several times. I've been playing 6max almost since the beginning but will switch to FR, maybe permanently as I think it will only help.

I had planned on starting this sooner but I wanted to set some goals and apply them for a while first.

Old OP where I failed miserably

Operation: 25NL to Whatever - Poker Forums

Readers Digest Version:
Transferred entire $700 roll to FT for RB and Bonus
Played 25NL til roll was at about $400 including RB and Bonus (took 11 days)
Dropped to 10NL and continued til roll was at $300 including RB and bonus
I won only 4 sessions out of about 21 total
Cashed out and deposited to PS with 25% bonus
Started playing 10NL on PS once again on 1/8

Why was I a losing player at FT?
I honestly don't know. I could make excuses about it being a new site, moving up in stakes, couldn't get cards, couldn't hit outs, etc. but I think the biggest reason is that I don't really think enough about villian's range. I do think about it some but in general terms only, i.e, he's on a FD, he has overcards, he has overpair, but no more than that. I was usually wrong too. I also used the stats I had based on very few hands(<30) to make decisions and my notes were incomplete ("Opens with AJo" instead of "opens with AJo from UTG/ cbets missed flop on Kxx board/ checks turn) .

I also think that the tables at FT aren't as soft as PS. I also saw a shitload of 3betting on FT where very few players at PS/10NL and below ever 3bet especially as a bluff.

I also played way too long for any given session and didn't leave tables when I should have.

So my goals are simple:
-start having fun again
-don't let poker rule my life
-leave the tables when I don't have an edge
-leave the session when I get tired
-take a break when tilted
-That Range thingy
-play with Pokerstove alot more
-post some winning and losing hands
-make more descriptive notes
-Drop down to 10NL at $300 (since I'm dropping down anyway this doesn't apply)

After returning to PS with $300 my BR was back up to $500 in a month or so playing 10NL. I decided to take a shot at 25NL on PS on 2/6. I have been 4-tabling for about 1k hands per day. I have roughly 10k hands at 25NL and I am down 4.5 BIs but I have cleared the $75 bonus, the F40 $40 bonus and $30 worth of milestone bonuses so the BR is still at about $500. After about ten days at FT I was down at least 10BIs at 25NL.

I'm not winning but I think I'm not playing too horribly. I am really trying to work on ranges at the tables. Before every session I review the last session. Most sessions are running about the same. Up a BI or two, then lose them and one more. Down a BI or 2 then win one back. I usually quit once these two senarios happen so I down a BI for most sessions. I still don't understand how anyone can play 6 max as a 20/18 without completely spewing. I played one session last Saturday where I was playing at about 20/16 and I was up 4 BIs but I was hitting everything and sucking out alot. I tried the same thing Sunday but it didn't work so well that day. It was like my cards were face up. The nits were calling my bluffs and the CSs were folding to my big hands.

I am going to try to hook up with speedcake and dranger to set up some sweats.

I am going to try to post hands here daily for your review. I am going to post winning and losing hands and try to do some analysis on them. I keep claiming I'm going to study more and I am studying more that I was but still not as much as I should. Still working on that. It's that time management thing. When things settle down at home I have about 2-3 hours of free time. So I spend half an hour or so reviewing hands and then start playing til I have to get some sleep. Everyone says don't play when you are tired but if I did that I would never ever play so it's either quit or play tired and I choose the latter.

I also have been looking at what range different percentages of hands include for Pokerstove. This is what I noticed not including pocket pairs:
5%- The smallest over card is a K
10%- The smallest over card is a Q
15%-The smallest over card is a J
20%-The smallest over card is a T
30%-The smallest over card is a 9

Useful? I don't know but it gives me some idea of what their range is.

I'll post a graph of 25NL so far and a few hands later today.

"To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did"

Best of luck to you. I may have made this suggestion before and feel free to mull it over, but if your goal is to be a successful, WINNING poker player, I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend consider playing full ring. There are two main reasons I think this would be a good choice:

- Full ring is EASIER than 6 max just like 6 max is easier than heads-up. You have to win more hands the quicker the blinds come around and thus can't wait for premium hands. This forces you to have to play and WIN with mediocre hands more often. This is NOT easy.

- I think you spend too much time playing and not enough time OBSERVING, studying, and taking notes. You have said before one reason you DIDN'T like full ring was because you got bored. If you want to play winning poker and turn into a winning player, you have to spend a lot of time doing "boring" things. You should be doing more "boring" things than just the "fun" clicking buttons and "playing" poker. Trust me, when I started out ONE TABLING $2NL full ring, it was a long, laborious process, but it was necessary. I needed to be getting reads and taking notes and developing that skill. I HIGHLY doubt you observe and take enough notes. For all the reasons you THINK you like 6max better is why you should consider full ring.

If your goal is to have fun and winning isn't as big of a deal, then maybe 6max is the way to go. And I'm definitely not saying you can't be a winning 6max player and I definitely hope you become that, but I think it's a difficult path this way.

I'll probably be making the transition to Full Ring throughout the next few weeks. Granted my sample size is not huge but most of the successful players around here have gone through the micros and even low stakes through FR. So, screw 6max imo.

On the other hand, most of those that started out at 6max are or have been struggling for a while.

Here are Feb stats for 6 Max 25NL. My winnings are running higher than AIEV meaning I'm winning without the best hand recently? Looks like I've been running like this for most of the month although more so in the latter hands.

Originally Posted by Jason

Best of luck to you. I may have made this suggestion before and feel free to mull it over, but if your goal is to be a successful, WINNING poker player, I HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommend consider playing full ring. There are two main reasons I think this would be a good choice:

- Full ring is EASIER than 6 max just like 6 max is easier than heads-up. You have to win more hands the quicker the blinds come around and thus can't wait for premium hands. This forces you to have to play and WIN with mediocre hands more often. This is NOT easy.

This is a very good point. But if I give up 6max and play full ring I feel like I'm quitting because it's "too hard". Will playing FR help the 6 max game in any way? I can see 6max helping the FR game as well as HU helping the 6max game but moving up in difficulty doesn't seem like a smart move at the moment.

Originally Posted by Jason

- I think you spend too much time playing and not enough time OBSERVING, studying, and taking notes. You have said before one reason you DIDN'T like full ring was because you got bored. If you want to play winning poker and turn into a winning player, you have to spend a lot of time doing "boring" things. You should be doing more "boring" things than just the "fun" clicking buttons and "playing" poker. Trust me, when I started out ONE TABLING $2NL full ring, it was a long, laborious process, but it was necessary. I needed to be getting reads and taking notes and developing that skill. I HIGHLY doubt you observe and take enough notes. For all the reasons you THINK you like 6max better is why you should consider full ring.

You are correct. I do take more notes than I used to but still not enough. I am studying more than I was before(which was hardly at all). I read BC Digest notes daily. I review HHs daily. I think I need to review HHs with a different outlook as in What are certain types of players' tendencies?

Originally Posted by Jason

If your goal is to have fun and winning isn't as big of a deal, then maybe 6max is the way to go. And I'm definitely not saying you can't be a winning 6max player and I definitely hope you become that, but I think it's a difficult path this way.

I think I may try FR again but at 10NL for awhile. My stats seem to be more suited to FR anyway (16/12/3)

Thx Jason

I wouldn't think of playing full ring as giving up because it's too hard. Think of it as starting where you need to start so you can properly progress rather than jumping in somewhere you're not ready. You wouldn't take Algebra II before Algebra I but taking Algebra I isn't giving up - it's just a necessary step before Algebra II. Getting good @ full ring WILL, in my opinion, give you a good baseline skillset that can later be applied to 6max, HU, and any form of poker.

If all goes well with my poker journey, I can see myself moving to 6max and although I likely won't start as low as $2Nl, I definitely won't be starting off at the same level I leave off in full ring. I'll have to drop in stakes and learn 6max but I'll be armed with a valuable and powerful skillset I picked up in full ring.

I just don't think 6max lends itself well to the poker learning process starting out. You have to be looser by definition in 6max and apply advanced concepts more quickly. In full ring, you can start off very tight and gradually add concepts and techniques to your game and expand out as your development allows. You can then change your style to be looser as your ability to read hands and put players on ranges correctly gets better.

I also start my own tables in full ring and get some good exposure to heads-up and 6max play that way. BUT, having played some 6max and HU tables, I can say that I think a HU match on a full ring table is MUCH different and easier than a HU match on a HU table PLUS 6max is also much more different and easier on a full ring table than a 6max table. "Full ring" players behave differently than "6max" players than "HU" players.

Anyway, embrace the learning either way and definitely try to spend more time observing on tables rather than playing and I think you'll start having more success. Good luck.

Hey Sasquach, how's it going?

Jason's posts in this operation are excellent and playing full ring is a good suggestion - from seeing your stats/style of play previously it might be that you find it easier to grow in full ring for the time being, and then moving to 6max as you begin to get comfortable with expanding ranges. Full ring may seem boring by comparison, but it would allow you to play your current style within the confines of full ring villain's narrower ranges. There's plenty of notable posters on FTR who began in full ring, and plenty too who still play all/the majority of their hands there and make good clip. Don't think of it as giving up, think of it as following the successful path laid down by others. Why walk the horse when you can sit on it :P

Good luck with whatever the next step you take is. I'll be checking in to see how you get on!

So I decided to play FR for a couple of days. I'm going to change the name of the OP also. I should have dropped down to 10NL but I didn't. I think I'll try to learn FR as it's been suggested to me several times and maybe I'll have less swings. I'll also drop down to 10NL while learning.

Here are a few hands from FR at 25NL

Hand 1

villian was 13/11/5 over 100 hands with 10% 3bet so I figured he 3bet fairly light TT+, AK

Since he is aggro, I couldn't decide what the 60% cbet means so I assumed he would do this with QQ+, AdKd. I raised hoping he would shove which he did.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($12.50)
CO ($32.10)
Button ($32.20)
Hero (SB) ($31.25)
BB ($19.40)
UTG ($26.50)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($25.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.75, MP1 raises to $3.25, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.15, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $2.50

Flop: ($10) 5, K, 9 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $6, Hero raises to $15, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $22.70 (All-In), Hero calls $7.70

Turn: ($55.40) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($55.40) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $55.40 | Rake: $2.70

Results below:
Hero had A, K (one pair, Kings).
MP1 had A, A (one pair, Aces).
Outcome: MP1 won $52.70


Hand 2
I should never have been opening this UTG at FR but after all of the folds I felt better about it.
Villian was 33/0/3.3 over 48 hands so he's pretty much a CS and bets when he hits.
I figured Ax or a set after the raise and he was a little over half stacked so I was ready to get it in here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($24.40)
Button ($26.10)
SB ($27.30)
BB ($19.25)
Hero (UTG) ($26.05)
UTG+1 ($15)
MP1 ($25.60)
MP2 ($16.45)
MP3 ($24.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, Q
Hero bets $1, UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 calls $1, 6 folds

Flop: ($3.35) A, 5, 4 (3 players)
Hero bets $2.25, UTG+1 raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $14, UTG+1 calls $8 (All-In)

Turn: ($31.35) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($31.35) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $31.35 | Rake: $1.55

Results below:
Hero had A, Q (one pair, Aces).
UTG+1 had 4, 4 (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: UTG+1 won $29.80

Hand 3

Villian was unknown but I figured I was ahead the entire hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($32.55)
MP3 ($3.60)
CO ($13.15)
Button ($13.85)
SB ($24.85)
Hero (BB) ($35.30)
UTG ($4.75)
UTG+1 ($25.35)
MP1 ($6.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K
5 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB calls $0.15, Hero bets $1.25, 1 fold, SB calls $1

Flop: ($2.75) J, K, 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, SB calls $2

Turn: ($6.75) 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4

River: ($14.75) 6 (2 players)
SB bets $5.25, Hero calls $5.25

Total pot: $25.25 | Rake: $1.20

Results below:
SB had 10, 9 (one pair, nines).
Hero had A, K (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Hero won $24.05

Hand 4

26/9/1.6 over 75 hands
villian always bet pairs of any kind


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($30.95)
BB ($13.95)
UTG ($6)
Hero (MP) ($31.75)
CO ($34.30)
Button ($11.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q
1 fold, Hero bets $1, CO calls $1, 3 folds

Flop: ($2.35) 7, 9, J (2 players)
Hero bets $2, CO raises to $6, Hero calls $4

Turn: ($14.35) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $6.75, Hero raises to $24.75 (All-In), CO calls $18

River: ($63.85) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $63.85 | Rake: $3

Results below:
Hero had Q, Q (one pair, Queens).
CO had 8, 9 (straight, nine high).
Outcome: CO won $60.85

Since things didn't go so well at 25NL FR and the BR is down to $400 I'm going to end this Op and start a new one. I'm going to switch to FR and drop down to 10NL once again. The swings are just getting too frustrating at 6max and I'm just tilting too much. I think the change will do me good. I did play about 500 hands at 10NL FR tonight and played some marginal hands OOP which cost me when I hit top pair and lost to a set every time so that's something I have to work on. I was down a little over a one BI for the session. I also hit a set exactly 0&#37; of the time and the same for my draws but considering I only lost one bI I'm not worried about it.

Hey ....funny I just found this thread. I moved up to 25NL 6max last week and promptly dumped 4 buyins . Moved up at $620 and had set my move down at $500. went down to $513 so dropped down to 10nl prematurely and hit a one night heater back up to $560.. I started out just 2 tabling so that i could take notes. General impressions I had were that there were generally a lot more full stacks on the tables .
Even though they were full stacked there were some terrible players, 3betting seemed a bit more prevalent and to me it seems like this is the first level where its going to be a case of targeting 1 or two fish at the table rather than 10NL where it would be 4+ fish at the table.

Weirdly , playing 2 tables instead of 4or 5 at 10NL i'm actually playing a lot tighter and the 4 buyins i dropped were probably 3 coolers and 1 spew. KK<AA all in pre , flopped straight raised and reraised all in on the flop vs 2 pair and he rivered the boat.

- Hand 1 is a good example of how much easier full ring is compared to 6max. I NEVER worried about ANYTHING to do with 3 betting until I got to $50NL. I believe by and large it's fancy play syndrome to do so. When a 13/11 3 bets you, assuming your image is clean and there are no other weird variables, it's a premium hand JJ+ and AK maybe TT. On the flop, you should NOT be anxious to get your stack in. Most of the time, you're hoping for a chop @ best. Think about what you're doing here when you raise his $6 to $15. You're saying, "Call off the rest of your stack with QQ or JJ when there is CLEARLY an overcard" OR "Please stack me with AA or KK". Neither scenario is likely to be profitable for you. You should have CALLED the flop and evaluate the turn and NOT be anxious to get stacks in.

- You have a villain who has never raised over close to 50 hands and all of a sudden re-raises your UTG raise. I can't say I would be particularly thrilled to get this is pre-flop. With awkward stack sizes like these, I probably fold. If you call and miss, there's too much money invested to let him bluff you, so a shove is better than a call if we don't fold.

- Hand 3 looks pretty standard.

- Again, I don't play 6 max, but I wouldn't be thrilled about getting this hand all-in on the flop as played in FULL RING because JJ, KK, AA have you crushed and AK, TT and anything else you have beat won't call. You have to start thinking in terms of ranges and HOW WILL VILLAIN REACT based on those ranges? With marginal or vulnerable hands, you should find yourself taking more pot control passive lines to minimize your losses OR to allow villain to bluff when you're ahead. I get the feeling you don't do that enough because for at least 3 or more hands, I've pointed out that you're making a play where every hand you beat folds and all the hands that beat you call.


Try asking yourself those questions more often. If I bet, what hands am I trying to get to call? What hands do I want to fold? WILL HE OR SHE CALL THOSE HANDS? WILL HE OR SHE FOLD THOSE HANDS?

Hand 1 AcKs - This is a way ahead/way behind situation, and whatever you're way ahead of isn't putting any more money in vs a raise. Villain cbet strongly in a 3way, 3bet pot with the option to check behind. That's enough to make you doubt the relative strength of your hand because villain's range narrows considerably. If you c/c flop, anything that beats you will fire the turn and anything you beat will check behind. So c/f turn, if you get shown a river vbet or c/c depending on if you think villain is more likely to call or bet.

The only other thing I'd note is it's not always about getting your stack in as quickly as villain will let you.

Hand 2 AcQs - Dunno about preflop really as I don't play fullring. When I'm playing really well I think lol way to go villain, wasting your hand, fold and onto the next hand. Any other time I stick the money in, sigh and move onto the next hand.

Hand 3 AsKh - You could probably stick another bb on preflop but no big deal, that may seem a little picky but in a pot that goes three streets there's obviously going to be more in it by the river. I can really see that your betsizing has improved considerably though. You could perhaps go a little bigger on the turn but there's definitely an improvement from before.

River is such an obvious blocking bet that it's an easy call, it'd be a lot more meh if they had bombed the river much bigger. I think the more fun decision is if we think villain is blocking his worse hands for cheap showdowns/bluffs, can we make him think he's pot committed into calling a minraise or something? Call is super fine though if you don't want to worry about worse spots.

Hand 4 - QdQh - In 6max this hand would be pretty sexy if you don't want to fold the flop. Reraising the flop is inviting villain to fold worse and stick it in with better. By calling you keep his semi-bluffs, air, TP, pair+draw hands in the pot, and c/shove a blank turn when their equity has dropped is niiiiiiiice. NH sir.

Originally Posted by Jason

With marginal or vulnerable hands, you should find yourself taking more pot control passive lines to minimize your losses OR to allow villain to bluff when you're ahead. I get the feeling you don't do that enough because for at least 3 or more hands, I've pointed out that you're making a play where every hand you beat folds and all the hands that beat you call.

QFT.

Good luck at 10NL, give yourself time to get used to things and don't rush.