Operation: Ben learns poker and builds a roll

Titles are hard.

Ok, let me introduce myself since I'm probably the least known poster with a decent postcount around here. Names Ben, i come from Australia. You can probably guess my nicks not all that original from there. Feel free to look for me on PokerStars, I enjoy railing others games and chatting poker.

I dont venture out from the SnG forum much. I started online poker after playing some social games at work. I was terrible, ATC can win type player. Gave myself a budget of $50 per month to learn this game. First month I lost basically the lot but started learning some basics, Second month I focused mainly on SnGs and built my next $50 back up to $100. Third month I continued with SnGs and built my roll to $350 or so. I havnt deposited again since then and hope not to other than for reload bonuses. Then I basically quit for a while (various reasons), played a little but lost basically, down to around $320. Got serious again recently, built back up to around $380 and then on advice from Jack Sawyer on here started multi-tabling $11 normal speed SnGs and hit a hot streak. Have taken my BR from $380 to $625 in the last four days.

My goals arent exactly clear. I have a reload bonus needs clearing on stars. I need to earn 1400 FPPs by mid march, so I figure if I play around 12 $11s (5 FPPs per) the days that I play I should clear it in that time. Of course if I make the step up to $22s I'll clear it even quicker. I'm hoping by the time I clear that I'll have a roll of $1k or higher. That seems like a nice mark. Means I'm rolled for things like 25NL instead of 10NL, and can move beyond the real micro MTTs when I try to learn them.

Which brings me to longer term goals. I think to become a more complete player I need to move back out of STTs. Once I've cleared my bonus and got a bit of a BR going, I want to start focusing some efforts on learning either cash or MTTs (or both). I play some 6-max 10NL now, and am a winning player, but definately play some bad hands to make sure I'm only a slight winning player instead of a bigger one. MTTs I enjoy, and often build a big stack early, but have a habit of pissing it away before the money.

I think I have a solid but leaking STT game. Against the soft opposition I have now I'm getting by (I'm happy to admit I'm going through a positive variance stage atm), but I have some definite leaks that need plugging. To list a few:

Poor p/f from the button shortstacked. I've become very passive from the button which is a huge problem in STTs when you get short.
I dont think i'm doing a good job extracting value from my big hands.
I think I'm missing spots to earn more chips in general. Calls I should make, value bets on rivers, stuff like that.
Still too loose PF sometimes. This is a leak that I battle with on and off, I'm fairly good, but sometimes regress.

My biggest leak by far is playing when I'm tired and not in the mood. I make dumb plays, try to hurry things along, and piss away whole tourneys for no good reason. Thats one reason I'm posting this now. Got some time on my hand, but had a big day today and have decided I'm too tired to play some SnGs, so thought I'd get around to posting this instead.

So here we go, operation begins...tomorrow!

Current BR - $626.49
Bonus FPPs - 554/1875



Links to posts I've made added as time goes by:

Thoughts on beating micros #1
Thoughts on beating micros #2
Thoughts on beating micros #3
Thoughts on beating micros #4
Thoughts on beating micros #5
Thoughts on beating micros #6
Thoughts on beating micros #7


Book review: Professional No-Limit Hold'em vol 1
Book Review: Harrington on Cash Games Vol 1

Good luck, put in the effort at cash and the rewards come thick and fast.

gl. post some hands in the SHNL forum for feedback on hand you re noot sure about.

Originally Posted by bode

gl. post some hands in the SHNL forum for feedback on hand you re noot sure about.

Thanks guys.

Yeah, I was going to comment on that. I havnt posted hands, because as a general rule I know what the mistakes were. I just talk myself into playing bad hands instead of going with what I know is right.

For instance the last time I tried I pushed a guy off a couple of hands, then shortly after he 3-bet me when I held AJo and I called it and got AI on a J high flop. It was the first time I'd seen him 3-bet pre, and if someone asked me what he likely had I'd have said AA or KK, but I managed to lose 1.2 buyins anyway, on a hand I should have folded PF. I guess I get cocky, or take aggression a bit too far sometimes. I will post hands as they come up though if I'm not sure I just played terribly or not.

i have no doubts you'll move up to where you want to be. Wish you the best.

GL with the op!

I think you should make the move to cash asap. Start at 10nl until you're comfortable, then move up as long as you BR >$500.

Thanks guys .

Short update, didnt play much over the weekend. Visitors all-day yesterday and busy today. Did get one set in though, 6-tabled $11s and made my goal of ITM on 3 (every set my goal is to make ITM on half my tables), then went on to win all 3 . Nice BR boost. Just shy of $700 now, but think I'll step up to the $22s, probably 4-table them initially to see how I go. If I drop back down below $600 then I drop back to the $11s. I generally use 30 buyins as my guide for stepping up in SnGs, but was a little unsure about moving up so quickly since I only actually started the $11s a week ago. Heres hoping the $22s work out well .

Rather than just blog I should post hands and stuff, so heres an interesting one from tonight:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB (t1455)
BB (t1605)
UTG (t4360)
MP (t1650)
Hero (t845)
Button (t3585)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
1 fold, MP calls t50, Hero calls t50, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t250) , , (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets t150, MP calls t150, Hero raises to t795, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t645, MP folds.

Turn: (t1990) (2 players)

River: (t1990) (2 players)

Final Pot: t1990

Results below:
BB has 4h 8h (flush, ten high).
Hero has 6c 6d (three of a kind, sixes).
Outcome: BB wins t1990.


Now in a limped pot this is just a BB special, but on that 3-flush board after hitting my set, is there any way I fold the flop?

Current BR: $695.49
Bonus FPPs: 584/1875

Played some 10NL just now before bed. Its fun when I remember to play sensibly. Heres my two 'big' hands for the night.


Hand 1

Could have made flop bet a bit bigger to deny FD odds, but with such a dry flop I was hoping for KK or QQ to push over. I guess his 3-bet, call 4-bet range was wider than I thought .

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

CO ($25.35)
Hero ($11.15)
SB ($17.75)
BB ($7.45)
UTG ($8.50)
MP ($8.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.4, 2 folds, UTG raises to $0.7, MP folds, Hero raises to $2, UTG calls $1.30.

Flop: ($4.25) , , (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2.3, UTG calls $2.30.

Turn: ($8.85) (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $4.2, UTG calls $4.20 (All-In).

River: ($0) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $17.25

Results :
UTG has Qd Jd (high card, queen).
Hero has As Ac (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $17.25.

UTG says: With the FD and straight draw I had to call.


Hand 2

Only just sat down at table. Dont like to get AI with TPTK, but it felt right here. Good play or not (results not withstanding)?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($10.05)
MP ($12.40)
Hero ($9.75)
SB ($12.85)
BB ($7.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.4, 2 folds, MP calls $0.30.

Flop: ($0.95) , , (2 players)
MP bets $1, Hero raises to $2.5, MP raises to $12, Hero calls $6.85 (All-In).

Turn: ($19.65) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($19.65) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $19.65

Results :
MP has 8h Ah (one pair, eights).
Hero has Kh Ac (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $19.65.

Up about $15 after 30 mins of 4-tabling 10NL.

good man, i guess TPTK is the nutz at 10NL.

I guess it is if villian thinks MPTK is nuts .

Not sure I like the hand in review. Doesnt his line indicate a PP which hit a set a lot of the time?

Anyway, moving on. Moved up to the $22 SnG STTs today. 4-tabled to ease into them. Was a bit rough, but I managed to hit some more positive variance and come away with about $40 profit (around 45% ROI over the huge sample of 4 games!).

Heres a thread where I comment on my thoughts about the move and a link to a tourney: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ew-t65983.html

BR = $748.74
Bonus FPPs = 633/1875

Ooh, that reminds me. One nice thing about moving up is double FPPs per game, means half as many games to clear my bonus (as long as I dont crash and burn).

GL Ben!

Cream them, carry on

did you consider playing MTT tourneys also?

What a coincidental question .

Yeah, I've considered MTTs. I'm not totally sure which I'll focus on once I've reached my goals with STTs, however I'm leaning towards cash, just because I suck so much at MTTs. You'd think I'd adjust better to MTTs than ring, but I dont.

After my morning session yesterday I felt a little burnt on STTs, and wasnt in the mood to play cash, so thought I'd fire up some low entry MTTs just for some variation. I played a $12 turbo, two $4.40 180s and a $3.30 regular scheduled tournament. Turbo was a disaster, the $4.40s I did no good in, and the $3.30 I got about halfway through the money stages before bailing out KK v AA with 15BBs left in my stack. So I paid about $24 entries and collected about $4.50. All well and good, but given I'm playing the $22 SnGs now, thats basically a whole buyin I pissed away messing around bored.

Todays my big day at work (I usually work from home 4 days per week then am away from home for about 14 hours the day I go into the office), so wont be playing today. BRs back down to around $725 after the MTTs yesterday.

Heres some stats on my progress so far. I didnt get PT up and going till a while ago, so a bunch of early tournies/cash arent counted in this. Dont think thats such a bad thing, given my early ones were SO much worse than how I play now:

$5 HU - 39 games, 7.45% ROI
$5 4x HU - 15 games, 52% ROI
$6.50 turbo STT - 118 games, 22% ROI
$10 HU - 12 games, 11% ROI
$11 STT - 40 games, 80% ROI
$22 STT - 4 games, 43% ROI

All multi-table tournes - -100% ROI (or close enough)

10NL 6-max - 504 hands, 7.79 BB/100
10NL FR - 277 hands, 16.7 BB/100


That just shows one thing. At these stakes, your BR dictates when to move up, not results. Those sample sizes are WAY too small to give a true ROI, yet they represent around a 700% increase in BR.

This forum really moves.

Had hoped to get some games in tonight, but I'm feeling fairly tired and I'm trying to stick to my guns about not playing when tired as I make bad decisions.

I did play a bit last night, even after my long day (felt good). Fired up a set of 6 $22s. Wow, was a bit nervous realising I had $132 on the tables at one time, my roll was under $600 if I lost them all. Fortunately I didnt! ITM on 4 out of 6 with a first, a second and two thirds. I didnt feel I played that optimally, think I'm starting to call a bit loose when I have a stack. Still, meant I finished up for the night about $90 which tipped me into the $800s.

Today I got chatting to Kmind on msn (thanks man) and he was giving me advice on MTTs and I went through a HH of a 180 he came 2nd in. Fired up a couple of $4.40s, with him railing one of them, and whilst I bundled out midway, he didnt seem to think I played too badly. A lot of bad flops after I raised good hands PF, and my exit was AK v's AQ where he hit his Q.

I fired up 3 more after he left, and with some of his advice still clear in my mind I started well, taking full advantage of my big hands (its fun, you hit the nuts and push and someone always calls ). Dropped out on one, cant remember how, but not only made it ITM on the other two, but to the final table . Was a little short on each, but not desperately. Ended up going out on one in 8th with QQ AI pre v's 55 (he hit a 5), and the other one I did a fairly good job of keeping afloat long enough for a bunch of others to knock each other out, and ended up coming 4th after pushing with A6s UTG with 9BBs and being called by AQ. No suckout for me.

So about $18 from the 8th and about $56 from the 4th more than paid for my excursion into MTTs, and my BR is almost $870 now.

BR - 867.82
Bonus FPPs - 714/1875.

These visits into other parts of the poker world are fun, but I've got to remember to keep on top of my FPPs for my bonus also. Have almost 2 months to earn the rest.

Awesome stuff! Glad to see you final table 2 after your two horrible beats KK<QQ and AK<AQ. You'll get 1st soon enough.

Nearly had my first losing set in a couple of weeks this morning. Only made it ITM on 2/6 tables. I'd have to check, but I'm fairly sure every exit I made before making it ITM I was pushing/calling with AK. Coinflips were not going my way. Fortunately I managed a 2nd in one of the tourneys I got through on, and HU on the other severely outchiped pushed 45o, got called by A4o (wtf, not even 2 live cards!!) and sucked out with a straight . Still had me on the ropes there, but I got him AI with bottom pair on a 3-flush board and he called with the draw but didnt hit. From there I just pushed/called till he dropped out.

BR - 879.82
Bonus FPPs - 774/1875.

Well yesterday was a first since I started my operation. I lost money . After my STT set in the morning, I played a total of 6 $4.40s without a collect, and managed to lose over a buyin at my first shot with 25NL in about 10 minutes. Mainly due to this genious of a hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($21.70)
Button ($28.25)
SB ($29.75)
BB ($27.65)
UTG ($25.75)
MP ($12.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, J.
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) 9, K, 3 (4 players)
SB bets $0.5, BB folds, MP calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, SB calls $1.50, MP folds.

Turn: ($5.50) 5 (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $6, SB calls $4.

River: ($17.50) 7 (2 players)
SB bets $21.5 (All-In), Hero calls $13.45 (All-In).

Final Pot: $44.40

Results:
SB has 4s 5s (flush, king high).
Hero has Kh Jd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: SB wins $52.45.


Gah, if I knew he was chasing a flush, why did I call the river push? Oh, because surely if he'd REALLY hit his flush, he'd try harder to extract some value than that! Except of course I managed to let him extract maximum value by convincing myself it was some kind of bluff or something.

Fairly sure I should have raised PF, dunno, should I have raised harder on flop on turn? Man, looking back if I'd realised what a chaser he was I'd have just pushed turn or something, but easy to be results oriented.

Man, I suck at cash . I guess I should drop back to 10NL and put in a bunch of hands to work at it, even though I'm rolled for 25NL.

BR around 820 now.

Hmm, I think I've been messing up my raises looking at that HH. I'm sure I meant to raise $2 and $6, not raise to $2 and $6. Basically I meant to raise approx pot on each of them, but seems I raised less. Ahh well, guess I learnded something...

yeah man I raise this pre and bet more like you said. River is a fold. You don't want to play for stacks with TPGK in a limped pot. Use position to your advantage and raise this pre.

Yeah, this is an example of a hand I dont bother posting in the SH-NL board. I know damned well where I went wrong, for some reason I played it that way though .

just keep learning from your mistakes, you'll be fine

I'm away for a few days (on my brothers PC atm). Will do some study and thinking while I'm not playing, but already I think I need a more structured approach to this. In reality I dont have a lot of days that I can play MTTs. Weekends when I'm home basically, and the occassional weekday when things are very quite. As such, I think I should start by getting my morning STT set in, and then focus on cash and the occassional HU tourney for now, and use MTTs as a change of pace on weekends. Hopefully I can keep the roll building, get more experienced at cash (which should become my 'main' game eventually), but keep working on my MTTs when I have the chance.

I think I need to get a dedicated poker notepad, and really try to reinforce ideas, record some results, just note thoughts/etc. Its an idea I originally heard from Aokrongly, but others have also mentioned it. Theres not a lot of guys I talk poker with. Noone in RL so to speak. Taipan on msn, but mostly about STTs since thats our common interest. DaGOAT, Kmind and Skeeno a bit recently. If anyone wants to chat, or wants to rail me, or have me rail them (I enjoy that), I think my msn contact is in my profile, otherwise PM me. I'd love to talk poker with a variety of folks.

Another losing day yesterday. First losing set of SnGs for a while, a few beats, but just not sure I'm playing the best game there atm. Need to give them some thought. Still, I'm well up, even at the $22s, so need to just try to play my A game and get things going again.

Lost over a buyin at 25NL 6-max again. That little experiment sure isnt paying off yet. Again, need to think through my game a bit more there, however the majority of my loses came from AA ai pre v's QQ who sucked out, so I shouldnt be too harsh on myself.

Working through NLHE-T&P atm, had a real 'DING!' moment this morning. The theory that the hands you play should be based on their potential for extracting chips, moreso than their showdown potential. The times you win with TP or high card in a small pot, matter less than the times you stack someone with a set or straight or such forth. Makes sense, we already know the rule: big hand, big pot - small hand, small pot, yet I still place a lot of value on hands which are more likely to be small pot hands (such as say AQo).

OK, play improves when you review your games! Man, my little downstreak there included some horrible tournies with shocking leaks. I even posted a thread asking for advice on how to adjust, when the answer was to stop playing badly.

Played a set of 4 $22s this morning (dropping back to 4 for a while), and whilst I only got one third out of the four, I think I played well in all of them. I played another set of 4 over lunch and this time finished ITM on all 4. Three seconds and a third, disappointed I didnt take down a win obviously, especially one where I went into HU with a 2:1 chiplead v's a fairly passive player, but there you go. Dont think I played them badly, just didnt get the right cards at the right time.

BR: 765.57
Bonus FPPs: 970/1875.

BRs taken a bit of a hit from its peak, but my STTs are still running fairly well. Its the MTTs and more especially the 6-max 25NL which has been draining cash from them. On one hand that makes me want to ease up on them and concentrate on the STTs to build my roll, but on the other part of the point of this was to use my STT profits to help fund my learning stages of the other games. I'm sure theres a balance in there somewhere.

Just noticed this, keep going mate.

Gah. I should be pretty happy atm, played 4 MTTs tonight, 3 $4.40s and the $3.30 regular with 1800 odd players. Got 4th in an $180 and 16th in the $3.30, but instead I'm pissed.

I went from having a really nice stack, with heaps of breathing room, to out in 2 hands I shouldnt have been mixed up in. My whole philosophy was to preserve my stack (beyond obvious steals, solid hands, etc) and not get carried away doing dumb stuff, but almost 5 hrs in I play these two hands:


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t6000 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 (t99530)
MP2 (t164175)
CO (t221830)
Button (t148448)
Hero (t180066)
BB (t190608)
UTG (t259676)
UTG+1 (t101703)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
4 folds, CO calls t6000, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t19200) , , (3 players)
Hero bets t13000, BB calls t13000, CO calls t13000.

Turn: (t58200) (3 players)
Hero bets t23000, BB calls t23000, CO calls t23000.

River: (t127200) (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t30000, CO calls t30000, Hero calls t30000.

Final Pot: t217200

I should have given up on the turn, tried to represent the flush. Didnt even notice CO was still in the hand. A fold here and I get away cheap, if I'd realised two people called the flop I'd have definately c/f'd, but even so that should have been my line .



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t6000 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button (t121130)
SB (t155175)
BB (t134830)
UTG (t103448)
Hero (t105066)
MP1 (t359208)
MP2 (t303476)
CO (t83703)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
1 fold, Hero raises to t15000, 3 folds, Button calls t15000, 1 fold, BB calls t9000.

Flop: (t43200) , , (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t30000, Button calls t30000, BB calls t30000.

Turn: (t133200) (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t75530 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls t59466 (All-In).

River: (t268196) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t268196

I decided I couldnt put her on a K, she'd have raised the flop, so she must be semi-bluffing a draw. Well she didnt have a K, she had slowplayed aces.

Dumbass.

Anyway, I collected about $70-80 all up, so I guess thats something, but having a good shot at the $900+ in the $3.30 and pissing it away was stupid.

I took a day off poker yesterday (well nearly, did some railing at times and chatted on msn a bit with poker folks). My mind was back from its obviously poor condition after my tournies, but I was just exhausted. Not used to a long session like that, was mentally drained. I guess the guys who play MTTs a lot just build up to it or something.

Anyway, I figure I'll add something new to this thread since its been tending more towards blogging than an operation (not that I'm entirely sure of the difference). I followed up on one of my ideas earlier and bought a dedicated notepad to jot down poker thoughts. For now what I'm doing, is I just finished rereading NLHE-T&P, so I'm working my way back through it noting down important concepts to keep in mind and ponder further. I figure I'll try to post some of the quotes/etc in here and expand on my thoughts of them. Should help cement them in my mind, be useful for any newer players reading this thread, and more experienced players can comment if they think I've missed the point or anything relevant.

Now the first quote is such a simple, basic concept in poker that I almost didnt even jot it down in my notebook, but then it struck me that its such a core principle of good poker that it probably cant be reinforced enough:

Originally Posted by NLHE-T&P

You should be the amount that maximised your expectations

Seems obvious right? A lot of newer players dont really understand the concept though. It took me a little while to realise why this was, and with apologies to Thunder for using his thread as an example, it was while reading through this thread: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t66562.html that it struck me. This is one of the first mental changes that most poker players have to go through. When starting out, most people think of expected value in terms of the hand directly in front of them. This is typically epitomized by the thinking "I have a great hand, I dont want him to fold, so I'll just bet small so I'm sure to get a call". They want to make sure they get paid off in that particular hand. The evolution players need to make, is to think of that hand as one in a stream of basically identical situations (i.e., in their playing lifetime they may see that situation, or very similar, hundreds or even thousands of times). Their goal isnt to win some chips on that hand, its to win the maximum amount of chips over the full lifetime of seeing similar hands.

Put simply as an example, if you think in a given situation that your opponent will call X amount 100% of the time, and will call 2X amount 2/3 of the time, then rather than bet X to guarantee X chips on this hand, its better to bet 2X, because over your poker lifetime you'll make 50% more chips in that situation.

Any time we make a bet (or any play for that matter), our decision is "on average, what is the most EV play in this situation", not "What is most likely to get me chips right now".

Withdrew some of my roll today (hopefully be replacing soon), which tipped me down close to my crossover mark for the $22s. Played a set of 4 $22s tonight, and just had one of those runs. Sucked out against in two I was doing well in, and my very first 'short push' ran into a monster BvB in a third. Built a nice stack in the fourth, but ran into a very loose donkey who continually hit very strong hands with crap when I had good hands. This tilted me a bit (been a long time since I've had to admit that), and I started making some terrible calldowns with middle pair and stuff. Heres the thing, even though he'd call big raises with crap PF, I only ever saw him showdown good hands when he bet or called postflop. I knew that, it was a good read! However I just couldnt bring myself to believe he 'had the goods' every single bloody time we saw a flop together (he folded like twice postflop v's me in over a dozen hands). Meant I poured way too much cash into his pockets and managed to go out pushing A2 which he called with 52o and hit a straight built around his 5.

So..umm...now I'm back to the $11s till I get back over my mark . Current roll onsite is around $610, and $660 is my crossover mark, so hopefully wont take long.

Havnt updated for a while, things are moving along.

I pulled $500 I had sitting in my Netteller account and put it into my stars account to bump my roll. Basically I'm running a net total BR in my head until things settle down (balance - 500 + 220 = roll).

I might as well mention what the $220 withdrawal was for. I actually decided to dip my toe into the staking world. I noticed a player who I thought had a game well capable of beating higher stakes than he was rolled for, so approached him to see if he was interested in an arrangement. The one we came to probably wasnt the best for either of us, but hey we're new to it and its a learning process like any other. I think for SnGs a stake works better as basically rolling someone. Play a large number of games with that roll, or a set amount of time, or just open ended until one party calls it a day. Our arrangment was 20 games of $11 buyin normal speed tournies. The problem there is that short term variance can have a major impact. Things have actually progressed fairly well so far, enough so that even if the remainder of the games he were to finish OOTM it wouldnt be a big loss, but the risk was there. Likewise I wonder about the benefit to him. Even if he managed so 30% ROI, that would be $66 profit, so his share is $33. Now it would be $33 risk free to him, but has to be compared to his own potential winnings using his existing roll at lower stakes/other games. Anyway, its been a fun little experiment (just over halfway there atm), and its nice to try to help out someone you like and whos game you admire.

As for my own game, its been a bit up and down. Came back from my drop to reach around $860 BR (peak of $890 so far), but currently sitting around $780 after a bad session yesterday. Basically I'm around breakeven after my big spike ended. I'd really like to get things moving positive again. I thought I'd review my leaks and make a new list:

Poor p/f from the button shortstacked. I've become very passive from the button which is a huge problem in STTs when you get short.
I dont think i'm doing a good job extracting value from my big hands.
I think I'm missing spots to earn more chips in general. Calls I should make, value bets on rivers, stuff like that.
Still too loose PF sometimes. This is a leak that I battle with on and off, I'm fairly good, but sometimes regress.

I think I've addressed all of those now. Put a lot of work into identifying my button p/f ranges, done a lot of thinking about the best ways to play hands for value, and tightened up PF. I do have some new ones though:

- Not stealing enough from position at mid-blinds (25/50 -> 100/200). This means I'm often ending up shortstacked even after good starts (blinding down).

Errm, actually thats about it atm. I'm sure there are others, but thats the one thats standing out right now. I'm ending up 3rd a lot lately because I'm just scraping into the money.

BR (net) - 783
Bonus FPPs - 1477/1875

Wow why doesn't somebody offer to bankroll me? lol
Seems dangerous to give cash over the internet.
You SNG and MTT guys are all nuts anyway.
Play cash for money, tourneys for show.

Well, I offered to stake someone whos a regular poster who I've railed a number of times and who has a winning record. Its not like I just msged a random guy at a table I was sitting at. Sure theres a risk involved, but he'd get named and shamed if he screwed me over, so on top of my trust theres a downside to it for him if he did.

be careful man!!you dont exactly have the roll to be giving part of it out.

It was a somewhat considered move (staking was considered, the arrangments not so much), with funds I was prepared to put at risk. Dont worry, its not something I'll be doing a lot of until my roll is much bigger, but I figured it was worth the risk to try dipping my toes into that pool. Just got an update, with 13 of 20 games played we just hit break-even ($216 in winnings so far), so now he has 7 games to make us some profit .

Originally Posted by bjsaust

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t6000 (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button (t121130)
SB (t155175)
BB (t134830)
UTG (t103448)
Hero (t105066)
MP1 (t359208)
MP2 (t303476)
CO (t83703)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
1 fold, Hero raises to t15000, 3 folds, Button calls t15000, 1 fold, BB calls t9000.

Flop: (t43200) , , (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t30000, Button calls t30000, BB calls t30000.

Turn: (t133200) (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets t75530 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls t59466 (All-In).

River: (t268196) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t268196

I decided I couldnt put her on a K, she'd have raised the flop, so she must be semi-bluffing a draw. Well she didnt have a K, she had slowplayed aces.

Dumbass.

Dude, this was a good perceptive call. I think this guy has an A high FD a lot of the time.

Yeah, I nearly posted that in the MTT forum for analysis. You're not the first person who didnt mind that call. Maybe I was a bit results oriented after being knocked out in the longest tourney I'd played.

Thanks .

Not a lot of updates, just playing away lately. Roll keeps sitting somewhere around the high 800s. Had a good set and made to 960 or so, but then placed OOTM in all 4 of my next set to drop back down to around 870. Bonus is almost cleared though.

Played some 25NL the other day with kmind while the sng's were down on stars and we pwned it up, was really fun too. My favorite hand was weak/tight/passive limper on button, me in SB, kmind in BB, button limps, I raise to 4x (smaller than std raise), kmind folds as does button. Kmind asks in msn "AA' I reply "23o" (truthfully). Weak tight folds to just about anything and kmind reads my small PF raise as trying to induce action .

Played some 25NL 6-max last night since it was a bit late for another set of STTs and ran bad. I seem to have trouble adjusting to an aggressive table. I start to fold PF a lot and make some bad plays postflop. I also need to find the fold button more. One example was raise on button with 76s, called by BB. Flop top pair, c-bet, get floated. Turn is a K and BB pushes for about $18 (pot of around 5). Now this guy had pushed with 64s PF the last hand after the whole table (except me) had limped and hit 2 pair when called by AJs, so I convinced myself he was just dumb bluffing again and called. Of course he had KQo...

Me and you both know you are more than capable to own at 25NL and your SnGs. You'll do just fine getting your BR back up no worries.

If nothing else I should clear my $125 bonus in the next day or two . Hopefully that will push me over the 1k mark .

I love how kmind hustled you by sitting to your left...

Originally Posted by biondino

I love how kmind hustled you by sitting to your left...

weeeeee

but we played 2 tables, both sat on each other's left on one and i sat down first on both tables.

i see what you did there

Lol, yeah I got position on him the first table we sat on, so he made sure he got position on me the next.

Maybe I shouldnt have bragged about it between tables .

Hell, dropped almost 2 buyins last night. Where has my fold button gone? QQ vs AA pre when he limped initially. Probably should have worked that out, he was pretty much a station so going aggro after my raise should have told me something. KK v 99 AI on an T high flop. That guy was just bad, I considered a set, but also put stuff like AT and lower PPs into his range.

I'd like to discuss a hand here. This ones been playing on my mind for a few days now, and seems so simple, yet I think it touches on a lot of the concepts being thrown around lately, including I believe ISF theorem. Heres the hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($33.25)
SB ($32.10)
BB ($15)
UTG ($32.35)
MP ($20.15)
CO ($11.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 5.
3 folds, Hero raises to $1, SB raises to $3.5, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.25) Q, T, T (2 players)
SB bets $4.5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $7.25


SB here is kmind. We've been running well on a passive table and playing fairly laggy. We're in msn at the time discussing hands after we've played them, so we both have fairly solid reads on each other.

Now at first glance it seems basic. I raise a hand I probably should fold from the button, kmind 3-bets me, I call with position, miss the flop, fold to his c-bet.

What got this hand stuck in my mind though, was whether I should have raised his flop bet. Was this a good spot to bluff? Here was my initial thinking: kmind knows I have a wide range raising from the button, I know he has a wide range 3-betting me, and regardless of his hands he's 100% c-betting that flop. Surely if we both have wide ranges then that flop is as likely to have hit me as it is him? The more I thought about it though, the less I agreed with that. I may well use these terms incorrectly here, but I believe based on our PF action, that kmind has a merged range (even mix of strong, medium and weak strength hands), whereas I have a polarised range (only strong and weak hands). This is because kmind knows I'm not going to call his 3-bet with hands like AQ, KQ, AT, etc. I may call with JT but thats really the only hand in my weaker range that could have hit this flop. This is because those hands are too likely dominated by the strong part of his range. Kmind on the other hand could well hold those kinds of hands when he 3-bets me pre. So now the only valid hands in my range that I could be ahead with are AA, KK, JT, compared with a lot more hands that missed entirely.

So to turn to the ISF theorem, I should be more likely to bluff when a board is likely to have hit more of my range and less likely to bluff when its more likely to have hit opponents range, in this case its more likely to have hit his range so a bluff is bad in this spot.

Is my thinking here basically correct? Or have I mangled the whole thing?

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Kmind asks in msn "AA' I reply "23o" (truthfully).

um. anyone else abhor this?

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Kmind asks in msn "AA' I reply "23o" (truthfully).

um. anyone else abhor this?

What's the problem?

I dunno what the rules or conventions are, to be clear it was after the hand was finished, not during. If we were ever both involved in the same hand then we were trying to beat each other (I think we both got nice wins off each other during the time, I definately did ), and if one person was involved the other would never mention hole cards folded to help with their decisions.

know before you act

The point is Kmind asked after folding. There is nothing wrong with it. Hell how would you feel sitting at a table when Me, Spenda and Halvsame are railing DaGoat? It's 4 minds on one hand, talking on vent and discussing every play.

Originally Posted by kmind

know before you act

Gotta work it out sometime, hopefully now I can apply it atm rather than taking 3 days to work it out .

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Originally Posted by kmind

know before you act

Gotta work it out sometime, hopefully now I can apply it atm rather than taking 3 days to work it out .

haha my reply was a response for different recent posts, mainly to dozer. Anyways, I hope someone does respond to your real question about our hand. I remember what I had but will let others speak first.

And thanks, TJ. I had a long post about how I actually play like half the time with someone railing me and a lot of times with friends (or high stake ballas who crush me) and we AIM our hands...AFTER they are played. Kind of hard organizing a ring game when your friends are in Canada or California, or in this case Australia when I am in Virginia.

Out of interest, if I had raised your c-bet, what do you think you'd have done? What would your thinking process have actually been?

edit: actually i'll get into more detail later, real busy right now

Yes!!!

I just played a set of 4 $22s and won 2 of them. I also cleared my bonus with the FPPs from this set for an extra $125. That gives me a balance of $1063 . I broke the 4-figure mark!



Heres a fun hand (winning hand of my last game). Not sure whether to title is 'inducing a bluff' or 'the definition of a bluff'. It does demonstrate a concept missed by a lot of newbie STTers though, which is that you're often better off checking in a WA/WB situation on the river, and having a chance at calling a bluff, than betting and only being called/raised by a better hand.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600 (2 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero (t8966)
Button (t4534)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, 8.
Button calls t300, Hero checks.

Flop: (t950) 9, 7, J (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (t950) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets t800, Button calls t800.

River: (t2550) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t3084 (All-In), Hero calls t3084.

Final Pot: t8718

Results :
Hero has 7c 8d (one pair, sevens).
Button has 8h Qd (high card, queen).
Outcome: Hero wins t8718.


Plan was to c/r AI on the flop btw, but I'd done that recently (when I flopped a straight) so maybe he was more wary.

Well, that was fun while it lasted. Played a set of 4 $33s and placed OOTM in them all, down to $924. Heres some fun hands:

[edit]Deleted bad beats, dont want to focus on them[/edit]


OK, whinge over. I need like 15 FPPs to afford Kill Everyone from the FPP store, so I might play a single table $33 later.

Or a set of 4.

Depends how I'm feeling I guess .

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I dunno what the rules or conventions are, to be clear it was after the hand was finished, not during. If we were ever both involved in the same hand then we were trying to beat each other

there is no problem, i made the comment in a pm as well, noting that i probably had it wrong. didn't mean to offend anyone, and glad that it's all above board...

I think its a bit grey. In a live game its against the rules to show mucked cards to one person and not others, but I'm not sure how its looked upon in online games to do this.

Ok, this morning was nice. I downloaded Massimo's 25NL vids from donkeyschool and watched them, made a lot of sense. Got me in the mood for cash so I loaded up 4 tables of 25NL and ran good. Played some yesterday and did well also (ended up even yesterday after I got AI TPTK vs TPNK (deliberate trap) on the flop and he hit his NK on the river for 2pair.

Here some of the interesting hands:

First, the fun one. Its nice to get aces AI pre and have it hold up for a change:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($33.85)
Button ($26.25)
SB ($13.90)
BB ($25)
UTG ($23.25)
MP ($33.50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A.
UTG calls $0.25, MP raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $2.75, 1 fold, El*Snako calls $2.65, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP raises to $7.75, Hero raises to $29.6, MP calls $26.50 (All-In).

Flop: ($62.35) 9, J, 2 (3 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($62.35) A (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($62.35) 4 (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $67

Results in white below:
SB doesn't show.
MP has Kd Kc (one pair, kings).
Hero has As Ad (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $67.



Now this ones a bit more interesting. Villian here has been playing back at me a bit, definately my best/hardest opponent at the table. I think he's more likely to 3-bet with high PPs than Ax, except maybe AK, whereas he may expect me to 4-bet with high PPs and call with a range weighted towards high Ax's.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($56.25)
SB ($73.70)
BB ($33.45)
UTG ($10.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
1 fold, Hero raises to $1, SB raises to $3.25, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.25.

Flop: ($6.75) , , (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero raises to $12, SB folds.

Final Pot: $14.75



Hows my bet sizing on this one (first hand at table)?:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($13.75)
BB ($19.40)
UTG ($17.60)
Hero ($25)
CO ($24.65)
Button ($26.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP with , . Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.25, Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) , , (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.75, UTG calls $0.75, Hero raises to $3.5, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $3.50



Hmm, I honestly did raise most PPs PF, but heres another limped one, is the 3-bet on the flop best, or flat and let him bet turn?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($24.80)
BB ($14.20)
UTG ($27.05)
Hero ($24.50)
CO ($25.20)
Button ($45)

Preflop: Hero is MP with , .
UTG calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1) , , (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.7, SB raises to $1.5, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero raises to $4.5, SB folds.

Final Pot: $4



3-barrel hand, I dunno about this one. My main reason for doubts is I really have trouble putting him on a hand. Some kind of PP or a strange straight draw maybe? This is same villian as the QQ hand, but earlier in the game. Dont think he's been at the table long so didnt have much read at the time.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($29.10)
MP ($25.85)
CO ($14.05)
Button ($24.05)
SB ($23)
BB ($34.10)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, K.
Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, Button calls $1, 2 folds.

Flop: ($2.35) T, 4, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, Button calls $1.25.

Turn: ($4.85) T (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button calls $3.

River: ($10.85) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $7, Button folds.

Final Pot: $10.85


I'm pretty sure this one was bad. This guys stats were something like 60/0, I was making a nice income stream out of raising his limps and c-betting the flops. I took this as likely a PP playing back and called, but if I give him a range of 22+,AK then I'm worse than 40% here so I think its a fold:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

BB ($26.15)
UTG ($14.75)
MP ($7.85)
Hero ($30.10)
Button ($31.65)
SB ($52)

Preflop: Hero is CO with , .
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, Button calls $1.25, 2 folds, MP raises to $7.85, Hero calls $6.60, Button folds.

Flop: ($17.30) , , (2 players)

Turn: ($17.30) (2 players)

River: ($17.30) (2 players)

Final Pot: $17.30

Results in white below:
MP has Kh Ah (high card, ace).
Hero has Ad Qc (high card, ace).
Outcome: MP wins $17.30.


Last one, BB special, thoughts on the river?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($26.55)
Hero ($22.80)
UTG ($4.75)
MP ($23.20)
CO ($28.05)
Button ($44.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
1 fold, MP calls $0.25, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.75) , , (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks.

Turn: ($0.75) (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.4, MP calls $0.40, SB folds.

River: ($1.55) (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $1, Hero raises to $4, MP folds.

Final Pot: $3.55

Results in white below:
Hero has 5c 7c (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $3.55.


Frustrating final note, earnt the last 15 FPPs I needed to buy Kill Everyone from the FPP store (and it was there yesterday), and now when I go to the FPP store its no longer there .

Heres some more good news. For those who read about me staking a guy for 20 $11 STTs, he just finished his last one and ended up with $104 profit, so for my $220 investment I got $272 back, which was nice. It was also enough to tip my balance back into 4 figures. I'd like to extend it (and so would he), but sanity has prevailed and I realise putting 25-30% of my BR into someone elses hands probably isnt the best move at this stage of my poker career. Still it was fun, he earnt a nice $50 from it and so did I, so happy we gave it a shot .

So my pokerstars goals are done for the time being. I'm now planning to move to Full Tilt and clear their $600 deposit bonus. My plan is to move $900 of my roll onto their and start concentrating on 25NL. I'll leave $100 on stars so I can still mess around with friends and fellow FTRers when the mood strikes. So I withdrew $900 back to Netteller to put onto FT, but found out that only the $500 I initially deposited from netteller clears immediately, the other $400 has to go through a security check that could take up to 3 days. I also got a check withdrawal for the $500 I had temporarily in my account (while the stake played out) which will cover my new monitor and some other tech stuff I bought recently. Means until this extra money clears I only have the $104 or so dollars I have left on stars to mess with.

I've emailed stars support about the Kill everyone book, hopefully its only off the list temporarily.

I've found how to download the videos off FTR onto my harddrive so I can watch them. I can get between 2 and 4 a day downloaded, so I'm spending some free time watching them instead. They vary a bit in quality, but I think some of that is just the spots the people find themselves in. Watching sauces 200NL one now, and its a real standout for quality so far .

Got my money on FT this morning. Down about a buyin. I lost two big pots and both were bluffs, maybe I should learn something there? One was iffy, 3-bet pre with AKs, flop was monotone no-broadways, I c/c'd, turn was a Q I bet it and got rrai and folded. Dont think I like that one. Other I called a raise with QTs on the button, floated on a JJx two tone board with the plan to bluff if 3-flush came. It did, opp lead weak and I put in a big raise and he called. Turn brought the 4-flush and he checked so I put him AI and he called...with trips. I'm a little torn on this one. I really dont see how he calls with trips on a 4-flush board. I think my line makes sense...dunno. He said afterwards he only called because he was down $200 already today. I guess that means he was tilting, sucks.

Gah, I'm gonna have to move down or play tourneys for a while at this rate . I'm winning small pots and losing big ones. Its like I play well for an hour and then do one dumb hand and lose a buyin. Really got to work on my concentration.

You know whats worse than losing 7 buyins? Reviewing your big pot losses and knowing most of them should have been avoided. I had a set run into an unlikely straight, and KK ai v's $10 stack with AA PF, and other than that they were hands I should have folded, or bluffs I shouldnt have made.

Its not even like I have good HHs to post and ask advice on, I pretty much know the answers.

Ahh well, I have a couple days off then I'll try to get a bunch of hands in and work on my discipline. Yey for playing overrolled I guess...

realize you have to be overroled (100+BI) to play NL cash, anybody who tells you different has been experiencing the YoYo effect in all its glory

yes I'm a BR nit


and yes, sng's are different, since you can limit your losses by the buyin obv

Yeah, those are my bad points. There are points in an SnG you can say "F'k it, I might be behind but I'm shoving" and its not actually that bad of a move, but doing so in cash can reverse an hours worth of gradual winnings.

I'm not 100 buyin type overrolled, but I started with 40 buyins so I still have about 33 even after my -7 buyin start to the campaign.

Update time. The weekend was good. Will be interesting to track as the time goes on whether the tables are just nittier at my play times through the week or what.

Made back 4 of my 7 buyins so far. Playing a fair bit tighter, and taken bluffs largely out of my game for now. Its working, but probably not optimal, but it gives me a base to work foward from.

I had a real eye opening conversation with ISF in irc the other day. I'd seen some play in his and massimo's videos that just didnt make sense to me and wanted to ask him why they did it as it wasnt really explained at the time. Basically they would hit a flop weakly, call the flop bet and then fold to the turn. I just couldnt see the value in this. Whether opp was bluffing the flop or had a good hand, he's almost always firing again on the turn, which means hero is almost always folding. Surely we lose money over the long term playing like this?

ISF tried to lead this horse to water, but unfortunately he just couldnt manage to drink by himself. Eventually he gave up and just gave it to me. We play our weak hands like this, so that when we play our big hands the same way we get paid off with them.

Now at the time a little lightbulb went off. "Ahh, I see, that makes sense". Then about 10 minutes of tossing this around a bigger light bulb went off, "Hang on, this means we actually need to play our big hands the same way a fair bit for this to be +ev". "Eh?" said ISF. "Well, theres no point calling flop with weak hands and folding turn, if we always c/r our big hands on the flop!" I exclaimed. "Well duh!" or similar was his response. Hey, these things take time for me . It was almost an hour later that the great big lightbulb went off, kind of like turning on the sun. Let me explain (and I'll probably do a bad job):

For a long time now I've pictured poker as giant streams of hands. Any particular hand we're making a decision on will be one of a series of very similar hands we'll face over a lifetime of poker, and so we make the play that makes us the most +ev long term, not necessarily that specific hand. For instance calling a river bet when we're probably beaten because of pot odds v's his range. Heres a quote from an earlier post in this opp:

When starting out, most people think of expected value in terms of the hand directly in front of them. This is typically epitomized by the thinking "I have a great hand, I dont want him to fold, so I'll just bet small so I'm sure to get a call". They want to make sure they get paid off in that particular hand. The evolution players need to make, is to think of that hand as one in a stream of basically identical situations (i.e., in their playing lifetime they may see that situation, or very similar, hundreds or even thousands of times). Their goal isnt to win some chips on that hand, its to win the maximum amount of chips over the full lifetime of seeing similar hands.

Put simply as an example, if you think in a given situation that your opponent will call X amount 100% of the time, and will call 2X amount 2/3 of the time, then rather than bet X to guarantee X chips on this hand, its better to bet 2X, because over your poker lifetime you'll make 50% more chips in that situation.

Any time we make a bet (or any play for that matter), our decision is "on average, what is the most EV play in this situation", not "What is most likely to get me chips right now".

So at that point I'd moved from the very narrow view of 'what do I do in this particular hand' to 'what should I do long term when in this spot". My revelation was that thats only a slightly wider outlook. An even wider outlook is that poker is in fact a series of similar looking situations from an outside point of view. Its how we play we play those situations long term that affect our EV.

Gah, in my head this is basic, putting it into words is harder. We all know (or should) that its important to mix up our PF ranges. If we only 3-bet with AA and KK we minimise their value. We need to mix in some weaker hands if we expect people to keep calling/raising our 3-bets. We play some weak hands the same as our strong hands PF. It also applies to postflop. If we want to be paid off with our big hands postflop, we need to play some weak hands the same way. If we only ever c/r flop with the nuts, then people will stop calling our c/r's.

So its about manipulation (man I'm all over the map here). Lets get back to the initial scenario. If we only call the flop with big hands, eventually people will stop double barrelling. If we call with some weak hands as well as our strong hands, we "trap" them with our big hands. We manipulated them into paying off our big hand. It goes further though. If they notice they're paying off our big hands, they adjust by double barrelling less. Now those weaker hands (say middle pair) start getting paid off because he doesnt bet turn to fold us out. Now we've manipulated him into paying off our weak hands. And on it goes.

Now from our perspective, those are two different circumstances. My thinking was two different thoughts "I have a weak hand, whats the best thing to do long term with this weak hand" and "I have a strong hand, whats the best thing to do long term with my strong hand". Instead I need to think "villian has bet flop and its my turn to act, long term how can I make this situation as +EV as possible for myself?".

Hope that makes any sense to anyone. If not, well that probably helps explain why it took me so long to get this. I think this is starting to touch on that shania post ISF linked a while back in his "backwards theory of learning poker" thread in the BC.

So I've kind of been flipping a bit lately. I'm getting the concepts behind more advanced play, some of which I described in the prev post, but my play isnt really reflecting it. Running at like 20/15 or higher I lost a lot of money quickly. Running at more like 15/10 I'm cleaning up. My adjustment after losing 7 buyins was to just play good hands and get paid. The sessions I do that I'm pulling in between 15-20 bbpt/100. The sessions I dont have pretty much all been negative.

So the obvious solution is to just play good hands, value bet them, get paid, but am I improving my game if I do that, or just copping out? Maybe its not that I shouldnt open my game up, but that I've been opening it up in the wrong spots? Making moves at the wrong times? Its kind of hard to convince myself to play that higher risk game, when I'm pulling down good results without it, but the whole point of this is that I should be working on improving my game overall.

Heres some hands that have me thinking that just folding is better. I'm interested in whether you think they were valid plays that didnt work, or if they're just plain spew.

Hand 1
Some kind of semi-bluff pretending I have an 8 type of hand that I should have just let go at some point, or at worst called down:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($10.10)
MP1 ($28.15)
MP2 ($11.20)
MP3 ($10.90)
Hero ($26.85)
Button ($9.55)
SB ($12.10)
BB ($25)
UTG ($24.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7, 7.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $0.85, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.85, Button calls $0.85, 2 folds.

Flop: ($2.90) 6, 8, T (3 players)
MP1 bets $2, Hero calls $2, Button folds.

Turn: ($6.90) 8 (2 players)
MP1 bets $4, Hero raises to $12, MP1 calls $8.

River: ($30.90) 8 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $12 (All-In), MP1 calls $12.

Final Pot: $54.90

Results in white below:
MP1 has Qc Qd (full house, eights full of queens).
Hero has 7c 7s (full house, eights full of sevens).
Outcome: MP1 wins $54.90.


Hand 2

You know...some kind of strange, pretend I hit a set type of way to give a guy money.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

BB ($29.30)
UTG ($24.30)
UTG+1 ($15)
MP1 ($14.15)
MP2 ($22.30)
MP3 ($42.95)
CO ($23.10)
Hero ($21.95)
SB ($24.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
5 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, SB raises to $2.1, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.15.

Flop: ($4.35) , , (3 players)
SB bets $3, Hero raises to $10, SB calls $7.

Turn: ($24.35) (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: ($24.35) (3 players)
SB bets $4, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $24.35

Results in white below:
SB doesn't show.
Outcome: SB wins $24.35.


Hand 3

Heres an example of a semi-bluff spot that cost me a lot of money earlier on.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($60.30)
MP2 ($33.75)
MP3 ($19.35)
CO ($4.90)
Button ($24.30)
SB ($34.30)
BB ($24.15)
UTG ($34.20)
UTG+1 ($4.65)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , .
2 folds, Hero raises to $1, MP2 calls $1, 2 folds, Button calls $1, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($4.25) , , (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, MP2 raises to $8, Button folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $62.3 (All-In), MP2 calls $24.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($69.75) (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($69.75) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $69.75

Results in white below:
Hero has Qs Ac (one pair, nines).
MP2 has Ah As (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: MP2 wins $69.75.


Hand 4

Picking off a "missed c-bet":

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

BB ($27.45)
UTG ($31)
UTG+1 ($24.65)
MP1 ($21.75)
MP2 ($25)
CO ($15.80)
Button ($10.15)
Hero ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.85, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold.

Flop: ($1.95) , , (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.25, Hero raises to $4.5, UTG+1 raises to $12.25, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $10.95





And so on. Heres a few where higher variance play paid off:


Hand 5

Std c-bet with overcards. Bet the 'scare card' king. That overbet push just doesnt look like value so I call.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($22.25)
MP3 ($23.90)
CO ($27.20)
Button ($27.20)
SB ($26.55)
BB ($17.95)
UTG ($9.70)
UTG+1 ($20.80)
MP1 ($30.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with , .
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, MP3 calls $0.85, 1 fold, Button calls $0.85, 1 fold, BB calls $0.60.

Flop: ($3.50) , , (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, MP3 folds, Button calls $2, BB folds.

Turn: ($7.50) (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button raises to $24.35 (All-In), Hero calls $15.40 (All-In).

River: ($46.30) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $46.30

Results in white below:
Hero has 9d 9c (two pair, nines and sevens).
Button has Ah Jd (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $46.30.


Errm, well thats about it actually. I guess theres some smaller ones there, but thats kind of my point. I'm either winning small pots, or losing big ones. Its not that I've taken making moves out of my game, but I now try to only do them in small pots. People just dont fold any part of the board in a big pot it seems.

Sigh, must learn.

Losing session this morning, but if I took my two biggest losing hands out its about break even or slightly up. Yup, both bluffs. One some guy was 'obviously playing back' and I lost half a stack. The other was a 3-barrel bluff on an AQ44Q board which I got called down by a 24/18 who'd limped UTG with AK and I'd raised him PF with 89s.

Yo BJ, you want to make another $2 bet for the WSOP ME?

Sats launched today

I'll take you up on that, but I've already played a bunch of sats and blown 10% of my roll which was my limit for them. I'll have to try to find some freerolls to kick them off with .

Man, Bens BR goes down . I think its just a rough run, but I'm prepared to accept it may be bad play instead.

Heres a few of my bigger losing hands that I think I played fine, but could be debated:

Hand 1

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($12.75)
MP2 ($14.40)
MP3 ($13.35)
CO ($25)
Button ($20.70)
SB ($19.75)
BB ($21.15)
Hero ($24.75)
UTG+1 ($25.60)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , .
Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1, 4 folds, SB calls $0.90, 1 fold.

Flop: ($3.25) , , (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, MP1 calls $2, SB calls $2.

Turn: ($9.25) (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, MP1 raises to $9.75 (All-In), SB calls $9.75, Hero raises to $25.75 (All-In), SB calls $7 (All-In).

River: ($52.50) (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: $52.50

Results in white below:
SB has Qc Qh (full house, queens full of nines).
Hero has Ad Kd (two pair, aces and nines).
MP1 has Ac Ks (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome:


Hand 2

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($10)
UTG+1 ($14)
MP1 ($21.55)
MP2 ($25)
CO ($36.65)
Button ($39.50)
Hero ($37)
BB ($34.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with , .
UTG calls $0.25, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Button calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.6, 1 fold, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.25, Button calls $1.25.

Flop: ($5.10) , , (3 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG+1 raises to $12.5 (All-In), Button folds, Hero calls $8.50.

Turn: ($0) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($0) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $30.10

Results in white below:
Hero has Ah Th (one pair, aces).
UTG+1 has 7s 7c (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $30.10.


Hand 3

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

BB ($29.40)
UTG ($29)
UTG+1 ($7.80)
Hero ($25.40)
MP2 ($19.15)
CO ($7.65)
Button ($9.20)
SB ($36.45)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with , .
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.85, 3 folds, BB raises to $2.5, Hero calls $1.40.

Flop: ($4.85) , , (3 players)
BB bets $2.25, Hero raises to $11.35, BB calls $9.10.

Turn: ($27.55) (3 players)
BB bets $15.8 (All-In), Hero calls $11.80 (All-In).

River: ($51.15) (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $51.15

Results in white below:
BB has Kh Ks (flush, ace high).
Hero has 9h 8h (flush, ace high).
CO has (flush, ace high).
Outcome: BB wins $55.15.

Sometimes poker is good fun, sometimes its not. Funny enough its normally while you're losing that its not. My roll had dropped to around $690 so I decided to play a set of 4 $22 tourneys on FT to see how that worked for my bonus and to hopefully bump my roll a bit. Finished OOTM on all 4, leaving me with a roll of $620 after clearing another $20 bonus.

Bleh.

Think I'm going to start 6-tabling $11s till I get my roll to around $700 then $22s till I get to $1k and then I might revisit cash again. Might do a mix of 50/50 cash/sngs once I get back to around $750 or so rather than all or nothing like earlier.

Well, my plans going ok. I skipped the $11s and just went with the $22s (I counted my $100 on stars as part of my BR). After 2 sessions I'd built from $620 to $850 and was feeling fairly happy. Then today for some reason my internet dropped out right near the beginning of my set and I was disconned for most of the games. Came back short on all 4 (luckily it dropped out before I fired up the other 2), then dropped out a few more times for 3-5 mins each time. I scraped in for a 3rd in one and busted the other 3. BR is around $775 on FT atm. Seem to be running fairly well in their STTs, so hopefully I can build up to around $1k fairly soon and start mixing in more cash. A set of 6 $22s seems to clear about $5 worth of bonus. I havnt been getting anywhere near enough games in, but I'll try to work on that. Been a little burnt lately, not sure whether to push through or break. If I didnt have the bonus to clear I'd definately break, but might see how I go. I still seem to enjoy actually playing, its just that I dont have much motivation to start.

Decided to play some cash. Played 88 hands at 25NL 4-tabling and won $63 then quit:

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2396121

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2396126

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2396128 (this was right after prev hand).


Quesionish hands:

I want to bluff river, but it feels like my hands face up, as is his.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2396048

Hit a set from MP on mono-tone A high board. Obv I'd like to c/r button, but does he c-bet enough here to risk a free card? Is PSB too much of an overbet here? I has hoping to get raised by someone who hit TP or something, maybe a FD...

http://www.pokerhand.org/?2396136

Good day. Fired up 6 STTs a little later, 4 FR and 2 6-Max and won one of each, and got ITM on 2 others making about $114 profit (costs $132 to play a set, so around 80% return). Thats boosted my roll on FT to over $1k, and I still have $100 odd on stars.

Havnt played much lately, so my bonus clearing is going poorly, but hopefully I'll get more hands in and move up in stakes and clear it a bit faster. Away for the next two nights, so hopefully will play a bunch from my hotel room.

Must learn not to play when I'm not really in the mood.

Played 5 $22s, OOTM on all. I dunno, played fairly well I think, all the hands I lost all my chips on seem to be +EV on review, but I think I get a bit bored and take more risks. Frustrating.