Operation: Ben learns poker and builds a roll

Yeah, I dont like volume goals because my standard of play really slips if I try to force hands when I'm not in the right headspace to play.

this is fine and of course you should never play when you're in the wrong place, but if you can't play enough to realistically make 10k within time X, the $ goal gives you the same problem.

Depends a lot on your poker goals as well - I want to quit my other job (and then make enough so wife can to!!), so one of my challenges is being in the right head space as often as possible. If you're just wanting it to be a profitable hobby maybe a volume goal isn't right, but I really think the idea that you can be a long term winning "hobby-ist" is a myth. It will work out for a few people just due to sample size and good BR mgmt, but I think almost all profitable players are playing a lot when it's more work than fun. It's maybe/hopefully better than your other job, but it's not necessarily what you want to be doing right that second. I'm not a NLHE cash expert obv, but I can state for sure that this is/was true for me in SNGs, MTTs and PLO cash.

Just a little update here for folks who wonder where I've gotten to.

Been doing a lot of thinking about recent discussions in this thread, trying to sort my head out. I feel really positive about poker again atm, although I havnt played for a couple of weeks I dont think.

I'm going back to just working on improving my game. 2-3 tables at a time. Forget about bonuses and money goals. Dropping my plans for 'withdraw X at Y BR'. I'll just make withdrawals when I feel its appropriate. This way hopefully I'll avoid that "nearly there...ah shit" phenomenon that messes with my head so much.

Gotta work a bit more on my thoughts on the Drs last post. I dont intend or even desire to ever play poker full time. Maybe its a mental thing, as I just cant imagine ever earning enough to be worthwhile. I'd realistically want to be earning twice as much from poker as from my current day job to go fulltime, as thats the kind of buffer I'd want for variance. I earn pretty solid $s now so that would be pretty lofty. Really I just want to get to the point where I'm winning say $2-4k per month as a part-time hobbyist. How viable that is as a goal remains to be seen. Maybe just winning $1k per month at 100nl is the best I can do? For now though thats all off in the future, playing good poker is my aim atm.

That said, poker does slip down my list of priorities when its not fun. I cant stop playing when I'm winning and the cards are flowing my way, but when times are rough I do just avoid playing. Maybe I do need to focus on my 'B game' somewhat. Tbh the reason I dont play when I'm not feeling right, isnt just that I dont want to, sometimes I really do want to, I just know from experience that I play crap. The times I dont "feel" it, but play anyway are inevitably my big losing sessions. Often its not that I dont want to play, its that I protect my roll by not playing. I should be able to play more though, and start working on that.

All that said, not sure I'm ready to leap back in now. Particularly hectic at work atm, and doing a lot of bike training atm in preparation for a 100km ride in less than a month. Not going to force my way back into it, but once I do start playing regularly again I'll have to work on ways to maximise my effective playing time.

Glad to see you back, Ben. I hope all is well and your head is in the right mindset. You can definitely do $1k+ at 100NL with very little volume.

So I played a short session before lunch after all. Went well, won some $s. Only 2-3 tables, mostly 2. Played well but not great. Think I did a good job targetting the fishy targets, just got a bit passive v's more reggy players at times. Felt good though.

Jyms and I can no longer play on the same tables. I think because I tried to transfer him funds (we took a joint piece of Alexos' action in the WCOOP) they now assume we're 'associated' and to prevent collusion they wont let us play at the same table. I guess fair enough in a general rule sence, but annoying since we never do collude, and we both use spadeeye to target fish so we're often trying to join the same tables. Given Jyms is normally playing before I do that could get restrictive for table selection.

Ah well.

Just read kminds Op with the post from Jyms about levelling, reminded me of a bit I saw in a vid this morning that literally shot me up out of my seat (on the train too, funny looks). It was vid 1 of the Samo visits the Doctor series on BFP, and they were discussing something about levels and Giggy mentioned the biggest mistake he finds in people he coaches or friends who play around the 100nl level, is they're so caught up in thinking complexly about situations and lvls and suchlike, that they miss the obvious point of considering what level their opponents are on. Even the regs are rarely thinking very deeply.

Man, I think this is a big problem I had in my 200nl shot, and at times 100nl. I keep expecting people to be 'playing back' or 'making moves', but in reality I rarely have any evidence thats the case. This explains why every time I tried to bluff catch, they had it. They just bet when they do. I'm really going to try to take the approach now of assuming people are just playing ABC uncreative poker until proven otherwise, rather than assuming people are playing complex poker without any proof.

I dunno, written out it doesnt seem as revolutionary as it did at the time, but I really think this is going to make a big difference to my game.

This came to me when I was reviewing a ton of hands where I called bets on the river mostly. I was calling some huge bets and even overbet shoves on hands where I am telling myself they are betting to get me to fold, there is no way they want me to call a bet that big. Turns out that I play the hand well and they just overbet because they want to get missed value. Same for flop raises. I keep overplaying guys that raise flops assuming that they are thinking about FE and hand equity together and it turns out, they get a hand and start slamming the pot. These guys are not thinking and in reality it should be a note we take when it's not the case, ie: "thinking player". I bet I won't type that much at all.

Yeah, thats what I'm thinking. Take note of those who can be creative and unless I see that note, assume they're straightforward.

Btw, I'm finally on ADSL so hopefully sweating will work better now. Really hoping in the time I have available to both sweat others a bit more and more importantly have others sweat me.

Not a great day today. Definately hit by variance early on, but then I think I suffered from some stealth tilt. Normally I'm pretty good at recognizing it when it hits and either controlling it or quitting, but looking back in review I think it slipped by this time. I wasn't monkey tilting off stacks, but just a lot of 15-25bb pots that I didnt even realise I was losing really.

Bloggy mode. I played a bit yesterday, 100nl 6-max tables were quiet so I started up a 50nl HU match. Opponent was playing about 25/20 to begin with, and he took me for about 2.5 buyins within the first 30-60 mins. Man, he just had it every time. If I had TP he had 2P, if I had 2P he had a straight, when I flopped TP + NFD he flopped a flush, etc. Can't help some of that, but what you can help is reads and thinking levels. I kept trying to get advanced, he kept playing his cards. He even had betting patterns I picked apart early. Prime example, he was always betting 3/4 pot, but then he bet pot on the turn and I called and called a river bet and he had 2P. About 10 hands later he bets pot on turn again and I tell myself since he had a big hand last time he did that, he's likely using the same line as a bluff now. Nope, he had another big hand (straight on turn) and he just bets bigger with big hands. After about an hour I managed to convince myself I really did need to the discipline to accept he was playing pretty much ABC poker, and to play him according to that. A couple hours later I had him down over 2 buyins before I quit (ie, won my money back plus an extra $100). Seems pretty basic and straightfoward, but I really think this is how I should play, and an example of me having trouble accepting that. I keep trying to play levelling games v's people who I have no idea if they're working on a certain level or not, or even thinking at all. Its basically what I talk about above, but its harder than it seems. Frankly, poker is more fun when you get all deep and thoughtful about spots and levels, but the money is in playing to your opponents not how you want to play, and I need to start assuming opponents are straightfoward until proven otherwise, rather than the other way around.

Ok, been thinking more about where I am with poker, and in particular some of the stuff the Dr talked about above. I'm playing a bit again now, but still really not as motivated as I was. Rather than avoiding it altogether, I'm just playing when I feel like it, but I only seem to feel like it 1-2 times per week. Thats really doing nothing for me. Heres what I've decided. Yes I will set myself hand goals, and the reward (rather than penalty) associated is a nominal withdrawal regardless of results. I've been thinking about the approach both daven and Robb have been taking, of withdrawing each month regardless of results. Even if its only like $200, it gives you something to show for your time playing poker. Hopefully it also removes the drive that keeps creeping in to reach certain amounts so that I can withdraw (or at least cut it down). Rather than getting impatient to reach say $10k so I can withdraw a large amount, at the end of the month I'll be withdrawing $200 regardless. I can then just spend that money how I want. Given the family is on a pretty tight budget atm while we try to pay the house off as quickly as possible, I can use that for stuff like books/dvds/taking wife out for dinner, etc. Should be nice. So I pick a hand target and if I reach that, I make the withdrawal, so that should add extra motivation to play. Also, because I plan to have a fairly nominal hand target, I'm thinking of adding other goals in as well. For example in Sept my goal will be to watch all 8 of Tommy Angelos vids Jyms keeps telling me I should watch. My lack of motivation has spread to watching vids and studying, so if I tie that in with a reward it should help. Each month I can pick something different.

All that said I need to pick a hands goal for Oct, but havnt yet. I'm fairly sure I'm away every weekend in Oct (except maybe 1) and travelling for work at least 2 weekdays each week, so I'm really unsure what a viable goal is. Something like 5k-7k seems really small, but that might be all I can realistically make with the time available. Normally it'd be 10k hands I think, but dont want to stretch too hard for starters.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I keep trying to play levelling games v's people who I have no idea if they're working on a certain level or not, or even thinking at all. Its basically what I talk about above, but its harder than it seems.

ok, most players are playing level 1, like they kinda consider what you may have - but not beyond "does he beat me?"
so you need to play level 2 - "what does he think I have?"
very occasionally you may find another player working on Level 2 = your turn to move up.
I mean, this is so basic but it is taking all of us so long to really start to get it...

Originally Posted by bjsaust

For example in Sept my goal will be to watch all 8 of Tommy Angelos vids Jyms keeps telling me I should watch. My lack of motivation has spread to watching vids and studying, so if I tie that in with a reward it should help. Each month I can pick something different.

cool, drop me a line if you feel like including some reading - i could send a couple of links your way...

Originally Posted by daven

I mean, this is so basic but it is taking all of us so long to really start to get it...

You know, to a degree I think this is how I was playing when I was crushing games. Not so much concentrating on the fact that people were on certain levels/etc, but just playing solid ABC poker without getting too deep into things. I dont know whether it was the vids, or my concern over trying to move up, but I left that behind and starting to really get advanced (I think) in my thinking, but I left my opponents behind. What I didn't pick up was that I can only apply that stuff against appropriate players. Now I've got to learn to adjust my thinking.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Originally Posted by daven

I mean, this is so basic but it is taking all of us so long to really start to get it...

just playing solid ABC poker without getting too deep into things.

I'm putting my ABC poker lines back together and finally winning again. I so get the recent posts in this thread. I've taken several longs breaks (for me) from poker lately.

Havnt played as much as I wanted but some. Got a short session in tonight even though I was tired. Change of pace, I played 2 tables of 100nl without a HUD. Was interesting. Ended up down slightly after 45 minutes, but other than a few hands I think I played well. I'll post a few:


Hand 1

Hand I like least, mainly because I just kinda did it on the flop rather than thinking it through. Weird spot where I didnt bet because I didnt want to get raised, but then I go and c/rai because I thought his PSB seemed more like a steal.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($124.83)
BB ($100)
MP ($100)
UTG ($106.09)
SB ($28.49)
Button ($96.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, J
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, Hero bets $4, Button calls $4, SB calls $3.50, BB calls $3, UTG calls $3

Flop: ($20) 6, A, 8 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Button bets $19, 3 folds, Hero raises $120.83 (All-In)



Hand 2

This ones interesting. Against the same guy, but about 30 mins later. I know from results above that he overvalues his hands (he had AT) so maybe I should just keep barrelling, but I decided to pot control it.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($197.41)
CO ($120.50)
Button ($125.58)
SB ($102.18)
BB ($107.81)
MP ($229.39)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, A
Hero bets $3, MP calls $3, 4 folds

Flop: ($7.50) 8, J, A (2 players)
Hero bets $5, MP calls $5

Turn: ($17.50) K (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $14, Hero calls $14

River: ($45.50) A (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $25, Hero calls $25

Total pot: $95.50



Hand 3

Didn't have a read that this guy was stationy, so didnt think there was a lot of value on flop, of course shitty turn card comes. He insta checked on turn, I read that as weakness, but then again if he turned a draw he probably thinks a little (of course you'd expect him to think a little if he turned the flush also). In the end he seemed capable of making dumb moves so I stationed up.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($134.78)
SB ($223.40)
BB ($100)
UTG ($34.93)
MP ($58.27)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, K
UTG calls $1, MP calls $1, Hero bets $5, 3 folds, MP calls $4

Flop: ($12.50) K, 7, K (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($12.50) 8 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $7, MP raises $14, Hero calls $7

River: ($40.50) 6 (2 players)
MP bets $12, Hero calls $12

Total pot: $64.50



Hand 4

This guy hadnt been at the table long, but seemed kind of taggy/reggy. Btw, its when I start making calls like this pre-flop that I decide to quit. Loose calls are definately a sign that my game is slipping.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($157.41)
BB ($120.50)
UTG ($100.18)
MP ($102.31)
SB ($272.39)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, 8
UTG bets $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $4, 2 folds

Flop: ($9.50) 7, 2, 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $7, Hero calls $7

Turn: ($23.50) K (2 players)
UTG bets $16, Hero calls $16

River: ($55.50) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $55.50



Feedbacks appreciated, I feel rusty.

Also, just to flood the topic and ruin page sizing, heres a picture of my stats since joining party poker. Top row is 200nl and bottom row 100nl:



Interesting eh? Is to me anyway. My stats are almost identical accross the two. Not saying they're good (and I welcome feedback on them), but its not like I grossly changed my game and lost all my $s. Main difference was the distribution of my PFRs and my 200nl was 'better' in that sense than 100nl.

Also stood out just how few hands I really played in that time.

Btw, I also did the filter on 100nl for all this year and I'm winning at slightly over 10bb/100 over 30k hands of 100nl for the year. This should give me confidence that I have a winning game and to get back on the horse. Just for some reason still finding it a bit tough to do so.

I notice that your quite a bit tighter than me (23/18) but your aggression numbers are a little more passive than mine (2.12/28.5) and your showdown stats are about the same. I think I am not aggressive enough and see showdown a little too much. That is with my stats for this month where I lost 25 BI's to start off. I think that you need a ton more preflop looseness IP and your aggression needs to be uncovered.

15k hands is kind of a small sample to really go into the differences (or sameness) of the two. Also, your 3b% is significantly different.

About river call efficiency. When I saw your post I looked it up. Mine is over 2, and that implies that I don't call enough on the river, which is a bit of a surprise to me. How do you interpret that stat?

Hmm, I thought I replied to this already.

River call efficiancy is the return per $ for calls on the river. So every time I call $1 I win $1.20ish, whereas you win $2. I guess the question is am I making too many bad bluffcatching calls, or are you not making enough? I think its more likely that I'm making too many bad calls. One reason I used to do well on Everest is that people there love to bluff and I love to call. On Party they dont bluff as much but I keep calling .

Couldnt sleep tonight, after a long days work, so against usual rules I got out of bed and fired up a session. I'd just watched nbr 2 of TAs vids (yes I'm running behind schedule for my goal) about lopping off our c-game. I found it really useful. Rather than find myself doing things and quitting because I knew I was starting to play bad, I was catching myself doing it, or better yet catching myself ABOUT to do it, and stopping it. It being any number of bad C-game type stuff. I feel it was one of my best, most disciplined sessions in months, and at a time when usually I'd be at my worst. In particular felt really good about my folding. I made good folds. Results were good, but less focused on results on more on the achievment of playing a session I'm proud of.

If your finding yourself getting back into th poker groove, you may want to finish those vids. They are really good. I have watched quite a few videos lately and that series is tops. On the other hand, the new 2 part SSNL series by phil galphond sucked ass and was very disappointing.

If your looking for videos on the mental/tilt side of things, I don't remember if you have seen the Stox vids by Jarred Tendler or not, but are a close 2nd with the TA vids.

nice work on the discipline dude!

Originally Posted by jyms

r if you have seen the Stox vids by Jarred Tendler or not, but are a close 2nd with the TA vids.

this is interesting. I think I have free stox membership in addition to the free cardrunners. Cheers for the heads up.

I downloaded them all but only got about halfway through the 2nd one I think. His adult learning model stuff. Was really heavy going and the DRM crap was annoying me on my bad connection at the time. That and it meant I couldnt convert to PSP. Probably worth trying again though, I never actually got to his tilting stuff.

Posted a few hands in SHNL forum, but had another one I questioned so I'll post it here rather than flood there.

Std TAG type op, no special reads.


No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($106.10)
MP ($200.48)
BB ($121)
SB ($115.82)
UTG ($186.19)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, A
2 folds, Hero bets $3, 1 fold, BB raises $9, Hero calls $7

Flop: ($20.50) A, 2, Q (2 players)
BB bets $14.61, Hero calls $14.61

Turn: ($49.72) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($49.72) 5 (2 players)
BB bets $28.86, Hero folds

Total pot: $49.72

Very nearly quit poker today. Actually decided to and started withdrawing funds to Neteller to get them all in one spot for withdrawal to me. Nothing to do with results or poker at all. Been going relatively ok this month. I just haven't had much time to play, and its only going to decrease going forward. I really need to start doing extra hours/study for work, and its spring so I'm wanting to do more stuff outside. Gym/fitness has struggled lately also. Just other priorities.

The main thing I wanted to pay with from poker is to build a basketball area. Almost a half-court size in our backyard. I expect it'll cost about the same to build as I currently have in my roll, so I really wanted to get that done so I could enjoy it during the good weather. Rang my Dad to ask about some stuff though, and since we need to do some earthworks to get the area level (we're on a hill) he let me know we'd need to leave it at least 3 months, preferably over a winter period before concreting on it. So at least 3 probably almost 12 months (Bad timing).

Without a rush on that, I might as well leave my money in and see how things go. As long as I dont lose too much in the meantime I guess.

Real pity is that since I didnt see myself starting again from micros I cashed out my points at the lowest possible rate, $140 for 5600 points. I could have bought a $350 bonus for 4000 once I got goldstar back again. Ahh well.

About breakeven for the month in poker, which includes 2 pretty poor sessions in the beginning when I really played badly so relatively happy with how I'm going atm.

Think I'm going to spend some time working on a time schedule to help fit everything into my days. Then of course I have a 16month old son who doesnt help routines, but somethings better than nothing .

Not sure anyones reading anymore. Sorry for poor poker content.

Been thinking about things after my last post. I really like where this leaves me poker wise. Other than my monthly stipend I talked about earlier, I plan to make no withdrawals until I'm ready to finish off this b'ball area. That means I have around 10 months with no plans pokerwise. Rather than setting goals and trying to reach certain amounts etc, I'd just like to have at least what I have atm then. Hopefully this takes a lot of pressure off myself, and I can just focus on playing good poker, and improving myself as a poker player in the meantime. Practise good BRM and just do my thing.

October just about over, very few hands but will finish my goal of watching the Tommy Angelo vids (only 1 to go). I'll spend a couple days thinking of targets for November (targets, not goals). If anyone's reading and chooses to discuss thoughts, heres one thing:

I'm tempted to set a hands target. Gotta start getting hands in. On the other hand, this new freedom of mine has me more tempted to do learning type stuff, like 1-2 tables of HU, or playing other game styles, or 2 tables HUDless or whatever. With that in mind, I'm not sure a set number of hands is the best idea. Maybe something like an hours played target, or X sessions in the month (regardless of length) or something like that, thoughts?

Also, any suggestions for a secondary target, similar to my vids one in Oct. Maybe a certain amount of review, or maybe certain stat targets for the month, or something? Throw some ideas out guys. Stuff that should help me with improvement.

1000!

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Also, any suggestions for a secondary target, similar to my vids one in Oct. Maybe a certain amount of review, or maybe certain stat targets for the month, or something? Throw some ideas out guys. Stuff that should help me with improvement.

yeah. Got some ideas. Don't set volume targets, don't set $$ targets.

4 suggestions.
100% of sessions playing a solid game - quit if you feel you're playing poorly.
x sweat sessions, either playing or being sweated.
x hours study for every y hours playing.
1 thorough hand analysis (reads/ranges/% stuff/etc) posted from every session.

I like.

I think I've come up with a compromise thats a good target which should help me with my game.

My targets for November:

- Start a session at least 4 days per week.
- Only play A-Game poker, if I'm slippping and cant get it back, just quit. Even if that means I only play 5-10 mins.


Hopefully that should get me back into the habit of just sitting down, and force myself to just toughen up and get into the game, and also make sure I'm really focused and trying to play my best when I do sit-down.

Some leeway allowed for if I'm away from home too much in a week.

Was away for 4-5 days, so missed the first few days of the month. Was sitting at the computer with no real motivation to play (bit under the weather as well) but remembered my target so forced myself to open up some tables. Made 1.5 buyins in 150 hands. Hit some hands obviously, but also made good value bets v's the right people, and getting a fish set over set for half a stack didnt hurt either.

Played a freeroll to sat into Aussie Millions qualifier. Party have a different type of structure for this one. Lots of cheap sats into $140 weekly qualifiers, and then certain number of people from those go into a single $640 MTT qualifier with min 20 packages but above that based on entries. So theres only 2 (1 international, 1 Aust/NZ) tourneys that actually give entry packages. Got deepish, think I finished about 120/1750 but only 10 tickets to qualifier given. No cards really, but fact is I'm pretty bad at MTTs lately I think. I just let myself blind down too much.

Not a lot to report, just a happy start to my monthly targets.

I'm glad your making yourself play but by doing this you're not playing worse than your A-game? Just making sure.

If I cant play A-game then I just quit. The main thing is to force myself to sit down and start playing. Like yesterday, I wanted to give more focus to my tourney so I closed down the cash games even though that left me single tabling a freeroll ffs.

Not meeting my targets. I did a time management plan, and worked out I'm not just being lazy with regards to poker, I really just dont have much time available. I have a lot less now than I used to. Still playing a couple times per week, but not getting many hands in. I think for now I'll stop trying to force hands and hope things turn around time-wise in the new year.

I think I might end the Op for now. Maybe for good. See how I feel later.

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Not meeting my targets. I did a time management plan, and worked out I'm not just being lazy with regards to poker, I really just dont have much time available. I have a lot less now than I used to. Still playing a couple times per week, but not getting many hands in. I think for now I'll stop trying to force hands and hope things turn around time-wise in the new year.

I think I might end the Op for now. Maybe for good. See how I feel later.

life and time and whether poker (and the $$ you may receive from it) is worth the life and time that it costs. Good question to ask, and good not to try and force it! play when you feel like it, don't force it, and enjoy all the extra spare time!

I wish . All that extra time is now full of work and travel. Clears the head a bit though to realise its just how things are. For now I can just enjoy the times I do play and see how things go.