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OP: Make Penneywize Not Suck At Omaha

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  1. #76
    No big problem with it here but would be cool if you post at least some of the hands in their own threads, would be fun to get some Omaha chat going - I'd love to learn
  2. #77
    Okay, for the time being I'll cross-post in the All Other Poker forum and link here. If it gets really dry and I'm unable to get helpful commentary I'll consider x-posting to 2p2 (no return link obv, I feel like that'd get me banned there!).

    Here's a hand from my latest 5 PLO session:

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post2109221
  3. #78



    How best to erase an 11+ buy-in downswing, whereupon I ran approx 8 buy-ins under EV?

    Simple. Move down one stake -- and win 30 buy-ins in ~4000 hands, running 10 buy-ins over EV.



    Granted, I ran like baby jesus for short bursts during this stretch, specifically including an 800-hand godmode session where I racked up over 13 buy-ins.

    Sadly, while I do feel like I'm approaching the game from a better perspective, putting in the hours studying, and doing my best to be mentally prepared for and stable during sessions, I feel my recent results have probably clouded a great deal of the leaks in my game.

    In this spirit, I'll continue to post hands and read articles in attempting to find areas I can improve upon. I have a list of things I need to work on, which I'll post up here sometime in the near future.

    Even though I've more than made up the money I lost during my poor stretch a few weeks back, I figure I'll remain at 5 PLO and try to win another 10 buy-ins or so (i.e. 50$; yes, I'm playing deep but I think it still makes sense to quantify things in terms of 100bb buy-ins) before giving 10 PLO another shot.

    Also, when I do move back up to 10 PLO, I decided I'll be playing the deep / ante tables exclusively, as a means to sort of mitigate the effect of rake. I'm actually wondering if there is truth to this hypothesis or if it's largely a mental thing. Anyhow.

    I'll put in another session tonight and then come back with some links to hands I'll post on 2p2. Go me.
  4. #79
    TL;DR:

    In this post I just discuss a few aspects of my game that I've thought need more attention / improvement. These largely deal with my positional stats and such. Let me know if any of you are interested in seeing my stats, and I'll post up a pic of them later.



    Some notes on areas I need to look into / improve:

    - I seem to be losing money in the SB. I feel as though this is related to my disproportionately loose play from this position (I'm 26.4 / 7.4 in the SB). I think the issue here is likely not all that different from that which plagues others who lose money in the SB: I enter pots due to the perceived "discount" from having paid the small blind - limping behind, calling small raises, and even limp / calling hands I otherwise would not have considered playing. Then, I stand to lose more money when my hand flops decently but either doesn't complete or doesn't hold up due to relatively poor hand structure. Also, I'm out of (absolute) position on all betting rounds, making it harder for me to steal reliably.

    - I'm running something like 21/10 with a 2% 3-bet. This seems far too loose and not nearly aggressive enough to me, however I wonder if this is appropriate given my current stakes. As I've alluded to earlier in this thread, my main plan is to make hands and value bet, stealing the occasional pot via cbet or river bluff when appropriate. Given that players at 5 or 10 PLO are not all that savvy in terms of building opponent's ranges and such, I'm not all that certain the devalued steal-equity we gain from 3-betting pre is worth it in many instances. Regardless, I should start to acclimate myself to a more aggressive playstyle, since once I move up to a stake where players aren't quite so oblivious (say 50 PLO) I will definitely need to find new areas in order to have an edge.

    - My c-bet percentage is 45%, which is probably a little low for PLO. I'm basing this off what I've read in articles and heard in videos like Vanessa Selbst's PLO series (suggesting a c-bet rate of around 60% is good). As for the situations I'm choosing to c-bet in, I feel like I'm doing a relatively good job i.e. I don't c-bet my marginal draws to second-best hands (against opponents who play straightforwardly postflop, anyway) for instance, because I'd prefer not to get c/r'd in these spots. Further, if I'm out of position, I tend to pass up c-bet opportunities with good cbetting hands if I feel my opponent is aggro enough, and certainly if they were the preflop aggressor. Of course, each situation is different, and I hate to generalize, so take what I've said with a grain of salt.

    - While I feel as though I've gotten better at putting opponents on a range, I seem to call down too light in spots, especially on the river. I have a won $ at SD percentage of about 56%, which is fine but probably could be better.

    - I've made an effort to find profitable bluffing situations - not strict bluffing, per se, but usually good semi-bluffs and sometimes even good river bluffs if I feel my opponent can fold given their stack size and tendencies, and only then if my line would make sense. A pretty standard spot to find a bluff is one wherein you chase down a draw, calling a few streets off and, when the river misses you, but completes some other relatively obvious draw, bet a decent size. This obviously works better if in position. So far, while this is probably a fairly basic concept, I've found it profitable.

    More to come.
  5. #80
    Well, shit. I said I'd wait for 10 more BIs to move up, thinking that would take some time. I won over 9 BI in 2 hours of play today:



    What can I say. When you run good, you run good. Funny thing is I'd be content with running == EV, that way the shittiness of my game wouldn't be concealed, and I'd be able to work on my more obvious problems before having them exposed later on.

    And who cares about running good at 5 PLO? Seriously? This money means very little to me. Anyway, I guess I should accept the rungood when it comes and stfu.
  6. #81
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    Your previous post makes a lot of sense. I agree with you for the most part about not playing more aggressive/entering more pots. I think you still get to the flop nearly 100% of the time regardless of if you open or limp and you are paying slightly less rake by bloating pots after the flop instead of before which might not seem like much but is probably what is needed to have a decent winrate at these stakes. I think you can 3b slightly more for value however ALTHOUGH I can't say much because maybe your opponents aren't opening a tonne in the first place but maybe you could start 3bing KKBxss+ and BBBBss etc. Pretty sure AAxx is top 2% no? I also assume your opponents never fold to 3bs and probably only 4b AAxx so it should be easy peasy. Message me on skype tonight. I might join your PLO fiasco. I'm pretty sick of hold em and poker in general and I may just play it for recreation in the near future.
  7. #82
    Actually I'm not sure about what percentage of hands AAxx represents. I will say that I generally only 3-bet "good" AAxx, leaving the raggy rainbow versions out of my 3-bet range, and generally only 3-betting premium AAxx (like AsAh7s6h) out of position i.e. in sb or bb and flatting the rest.

    I'm down to talk PLO any time man, I'll fire up skype now and see if you're on.
  8. #83
    alright this is bugging me:

    player is dealt 4 cards, and can make AAxx the following ways:
    AAxx
    AxAx
    AxxA
    xAAx
    xAxA
    xxAA
    or 6 different ways.

    In any of these cases, the chances of being dealt the first A is 4 / remaining cards and the second, 3 / rem. cards. The chances of not being dealt A are 48 / rem. cards and the second time 47 / rem. cards.

    So we get [ (4 * 3 * 48 * 47) / (52 * 51 * 50 * 49) ] for each of the 'ways' of being dealt AAxx. This is 0.004167, and times six = 0.025 or exactly 2.5%

    Well that was fun.

    Edit: the number's a bit bigger if you include AAAx and AAAA but seriously fuck those combos.
  9. #84
    So Yaawn I looked for you online and apparently you're not there. I have my skype on DnD but don't let that stop you. I should be grinding pretty soon tonight, would be cool to discuss things with you at some point!
  10. #85
    Some great posts, really good thread. Would be grateful if you'd keep posting hands in the PLO section - I'd really like to learn and that seems like a good way for me to read advise and see what people say. I've had a couple of shots at playing to learn and neither went well. Could you recommend any training material?
  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
    Some great posts, really good thread. Would be grateful if you'd keep posting hands in the PLO section - I'd really like to learn and that seems like a good way for me to read advise and see what people say. I've had a couple of shots at playing to learn and neither went well. Could you recommend any training material?
    I'll continue posting in the Other Poker forum here for the time being, as I seem to be getting interesting comments and insight from guys like Drmcboy.

    As for learning material...

    From starting out knowing little / nothing about PLO, start here:
    PLO From Scratch - Part 1 | Discussions | Donkr
    this article series will take you all the way through to moderately advanced play concepts.

    Other than that, the "2 X 6" video series by vanessa selbst / whitelime on DC is necessary viewing, preferably done in concert with the aforementioned article series.

    Once you're done with those videos, move on to the "PLO" video series by Galfond and whitelime. Just listening to Galfond talk about PLO concepts is incredibly illuminating.

    By the time you get through those videos, you should be close to done the article series and have most of the tools necessary to beat levels up to 100 PLO. Of course, all this assumes you have some propensity to internalize the information being given to you, and take the time to study, review, ask questions, comment on other people's hands etc. you know, the usual 'getting good at poker' shit.

    I should mention that having not beaten anything beyond 10 PLO yet I can't confirm that this is enough material or w/e but it seems to me to be more than enough.
  12. #87
    Time for an update. I've been away all weekend and a chunk of this week for thanksgiving, work projects picking up starting next week. I don't imagine these will completely consume my time but it'll be nice to be busy; and compartmentalizing my days can't be a bad thing given I've been waking up at noon or later for the past month or so.

    Poker-wise, I've moved up to 10 PLO and have been alternating winning / losing sessions for a net of roughly zero over ~3k hands. I'm not discouraged, I know I need to improve, play better, and that way I at least will be setting myself up for long-run profitability in this game, regardless of short-run EV considerations.

    -----------------

    Some hands I fucked up pretty badly; my comments are in bold:

    BB is 11/5, AF of 2, and CO is 85/22, AF of ~0.7

    $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
    PokerStars
    6 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG ($8.12) 81bb
    Hero (UTG+1) ($10) 100bb
    CO ($5.10) 51bb
    BTN ($12.82) 128bb
    SB ($36.48) 365bb
    BB ($6.72) 67bb

    Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1
    UTG calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, CO calls $0.40, 2 folds, BB calls $0.30, UTG calls $0.30

    Standard so far.

    Flop: ($1.65, 4 players)
    BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks

    Hurr durr I'mma not bet this flop because of reasons. Reasons that are shitty and bad.

    Turn: ($1.65, 4 players)
    BB bets $1.10, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.10, CO calls $1.10

    As played, I think calling here is probably not such a bad option; the upside being that our loose donk in the CO might just call behind if the sizing isn't too out of hand. Of course that's an extra 4 cards to draw against my made hand, and I'm not liking any club river that doesn't pair the board. On the other hand he may improve to some second best hand on rivers that I can bet for value. So, it's close.

    Raising has the merit of folding out hands that have equity against our holdings, while creating a larger pot vs. BB who may be unlikely to fold to a modestly sized raise here.


    River: ($4.95, 3 players)
    BB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60, CO calls $0.60

    Pretty meekly played here, given pot size I think it's close between calling and folding. Yes, I need something like a 10% chance to win here for this to be a profitable call, but how often do my trip aces hold up here three handed? Not to mention, I would not be closing the action, though given CO's tendencies he seems unlikely to be doing anything but calling here unless he has the nuts.

    I've omitted the results, they're really not important here. Am I correct in saying the correct line would have been to b/c flop with a plan to bet say 1/2 to 2/3 on all turns? Does this maximize our expectation given our opponents?

    Edit: I neglected to mention UTG runs 43/7 with an AF of 1. All are smallish ~50 hand samples.

    Edit x2: I'll post the next hand in the Other Poker forum and link it here.
    Last edited by Penneywize; 10-11-2012 at 08:40 PM.
  13. #88
    Next hand is up for discussion here:

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post2111081
  14. #89
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    holy jesus, don't you have the nuts on the flop in that hand? i mean, you'd be an equity favourite over 54xx with all your redraws wouldn't you?
  15. #90
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    i mean the A32 twotone flop hand
  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by rpm View Post
    holy jesus, don't you have the nuts on the flop in that hand? i mean, you'd be an equity favourite over 54xx with all your redraws wouldn't you?
    This is accurate. I suppose my concern at the time revolved around having the deck crippled and never getting value, but this is omaha and people are much more likely to have weird draws / 54xx / two pair and so on. It indeed was a pretty large mistake not to bet that flop.
  17. #92
    Update on 10 PLO:



    For fuck's sake, 10 PLO, what is your problem? I think I am destined to run shitty at this level and never move past it.

    A more likely issue, however, is the mother fucking rake. I'm down ~4.5 BIs over ~4.7k hands (and ~6.5 BIs under all-in EV) and have paid $80 in rake over that span. That's just f'n ridiculous.

    It's really looking like the only way to beat 10 PLO is to simply not run under all-in EV.

    I've got about 50$ left in my shot at this level. I'm going to play 4 tables of 250bb deepstack and see how that works out. I get stacked twice, and I move down to 5 PLO and regrind 100$ for another shot.
  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Penneywize View Post
    A more likely issue, however, is the mother fucking rake. I'm down ~4.5 BIs over ~4.7k hands (and ~6.5 BIs under all-in EV) and have paid $80 in rake over that span. That's just f'n ridiculous.

    It's really looking like the only way to beat 10 PLO is to simply not run under all-in EV.
    Yeah I think I said it earlier in this thread, but I wouldn't play lower than $50PLO. I even think $50PLO is a bad idea cuz I got raped by rake there, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fnord View Post
    Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    blog: http://donkeybrainspoker.com/


    Watch me stream $200 hyper HU and $100 Spins on Twitch!
  19. #94
    Yeah rake is pretty ridic. But I am beginning to think that 10 PLO is indeed beatable, so long as you don't run some huge value under expectation. Players are just generally very bad, it's quite possible to win a great deal by keeping exploitation to a minimum (and minimizing neutralish-EV situations) and just valuetowning bad players when you have the nuts.

    It's just such a swongy game though, definitely not for the faint of heart. Maybe I'll be able to speak with more authority on this topic when and if I beat 10 PLO finally.
  20. #95
    Alright, time for a stats checkup. Roughly 7k hands at 10 PLO:



    Looking over this, I seem to be playing very passively (low 3-bet and cbet percentage, low raise flop cbet percentage) which may need to be adjusted somewhat. I'm probably opening too widely out of UTG, and completing too widely in the SB. For some reason, I'm raising more out of the CO than the BU, but maybe this is a more common phenomenon than in NLHE.

    So, let me have it. Thoughts, commentary, (semi-constructive) insults welcome.
  21. #96
    are the 3 bets just AA? < 2% is suspicious, I would change to a mostly different set of 3 bet hands (leave in AAxx DS/connected tyoes, add lots of rundowns).

    raise/3b more OTB, play less hands from blinds. In general, when I played too many blind hands, they were meh pair hands or unconnected Axs hands.
  22. #97
    I think you're absolutely right actually. Looking at the hands I'm calling off in the blinds, often they're just like a suited ace with a small pair or other relatively unconnected side cards. I think this would be a smaller mistake in multiway pots, but even playing somewhat nutty hands out of position isnt all that profitable. This might be a significant leak for me actually.

    As for 3-betting, my range consists largely of strong AAxx and premium broadway and rundowns like JT98ss+. I would refrain from 3-betting bad, or even mediocre AAxx out of position. For example depending on the table dynamic I may not 3-bet AcAd9s7s from the big blind.

    It's fairly obvious that I need to be expanding my 3-betting range, especially in position. If I am to succeed at higher levels I can't just be 3-betting premium hands. There certainly needs to be a 'speculative' portion to my 3-bet range, and even a smallish 'outright bluff' portion.

    Anyway, I'll try and adapt from here. Thanks for the input.
  23. #98
    Well fuck me.

    The Smashing Pumpkins release the greatest album they've made in ~14 years, and I'm completely unaware. They go on tour and I miss the fucking Montreal tour date (i.e. today). JFC.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVCHpKvyCAg

    Anyway, poker update. I've played another 5k hands or so over the last 2 weeks (incredibly weak volume I know), generally playing badly and running shitty.

    I've noticed a bunch of horrible patterns creeping back into my play. One is calling down too lightly. Another is calling check-raises on the river without the nuts. Another is tilting towards the end of sessions being all like "w/e, this is PLO, I have equity. Implied odds, and such <clicks 'call'>", and it's costing me.

    I think I'm only up about 20$ since my second try at 10PLO, down from a peak of about ~85. I'm still running below EV, but that's hardly the reason for my poor results.

    Over the past few weeks I think I've had a tendency not to put in full review sessions, nor work on equities with Propokertools and what have you. This is probably part and parcel of my maladies as of late, and it's got to end.

    So, for now, I've got a hand to post, let's see if I can get some advice on it.
  24. #99
    Villain is 50/28 with an AF of 2 over about 100 hands.

    Pre seems std, as for the flop, I don't want to over-rep here by raising; I'm not raising the nuts here very often if ever, and I'll sometimes, but rarely, raise sets here for balance / deception. Regardless, I call, and it's doubtful he'd even be aware of such tendencies.

    Turn, I think I probably should have bet here; primarily as a means to get value from worse flushes, but also for creating fold equity against AsXsXX in the event of the board pairing on the river. Villain's deep enough to fold to a 2/3 psb on river if he calls a bet on turn. As for sizing I'd go something like 1/2 on this street.

    If board pairs I figure worse flushes might give a crying call some non-zero percentage of the time, enough to make bet/folding the turn profitable.

    Anyway, I don't bet the turn. River is just fucking weird. Is it not legitimate to think that he'd lead all of his nut hands here? Or have I played passively enough (given turn) to convince him that the only way to milk me is to check and hope I bet?

    At any rate, once he check-raises, this is a fold, yes? Obviously my bet was designed to get some value from weaker flushes and rarely, other hands. Any chance he raises as a bluff here with any frequency?


    $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
    PokerStars
    5 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG ($12.65) 127bb
    CO ($9.64) 96bb
    Hero (BTN) ($10) 100bb
    SB ($19.25) 193bb
    BB ($8.13) 81bb

    Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is BTN
    UTG raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, SB calls $0.30, BB calls $0.25

    Flop: ($1.75, 5 players)
    SB bets $1, 3 folds, Hero calls $1

    Turn: ($3.75, 2 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks

    River: ($3.75, 2 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets $1.80, SB raises to $8.98 ...

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