Impulse Control, Willpower, Ego

ship the 5 hours
got my 3 buyins back

One of my leaks is that I can't recall the previous action. That's because I make instant calls with pps and then I forget who raised preflop. Then I'm like shit I guess I'm BU and he's UTG so he raised I called?

This is bad because it means I'm not concentrating enough. I'm going to spend time on 4 tables and ask myself four questions before any action:

1) What is the prior action?
2) What is his range?
3) What is my range?
4) What's the best line to take?

I played again when I was kind of tired, but not that tired. The difference is that while I was still tired, I asked myself those four questions. I still missed the previous action sometimes. But I think it helped a lot. I made a lot of close folds on the turn when I usually call when I 6 table. 4 tabling helped me decide more sharply in each situation. I feel that despite being tired, this is the best I've played in a long time.

Here's an interesting hand:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($144.85)
Button ($128.10)
SB ($106.40)
Hero (BB) ($100)
UTG ($209.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8, 8
UTG bets $4, MP calls $4, Button calls $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $3

Flop: ($16.50) 8, 9, 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $13, MP calls $13, 1 fold, Hero calls $13

Turn: ($55.50) 9 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $40, MP calls $40, Hero folds

River: ($135.50) J (2 players)
UTG bets $152.80 (All-In), MP calls $87.85 (All-In)

Total pot: $311.20 | Rake: $3

the turn is a lol easy fold but it's tilting because one villain had one out vs. me and the other had 3 and they both hit it on the turn obv
btw I'm setting a goal of 200 hours played this month
this is because oskar bet ten dolla on hours played
3.72 hours so far
27 days to do 196.28 = 7.27 hours a day so I guess my goal for tomorrow should be to grind about 8 hours before going out

and it's not like I want to obsess with poker or something like that, I want to be able to manage my time in a way that allows me to have a life and play poker 8 hours a day
this means less time wasted on pointless internet shit

Originally Posted by iopq

btw I'm setting a goal of 200 hours played this month

i'm keen for action on this bet. I'd be happy putting money on you not playing >120hrs.

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by iopq

btw I'm setting a goal of 200 hours played this month

i'm keen for action on this bet. I'd be happy putting money on you not playing >120hrs.

lol u mad I'd have to get 10:1 to consider getting 120 hours

but so far this month something like 8 hours
I'm fucking positive it's more than whatever the pitiful amount oskar's been able to grind out

[x] tried grinding
[x] disconnected during hands
[ ] won money
[x] went to comcast and got a new modem

plz to be not disconnecting now

iopq I'm ending this day a winner
iopq 12.5 hours this month

17 hours so far I'm quitting because the tables around this time are terribad

poker is not going so well, but hopefully I'll fix sum leaks and winrar some more
I'll go for 8 hours tomorrow I guess or something

25.25 hours
holy shit did I really play 8 hours today? I am fucking pimp
oskar is at around 32 (he promised to grind 4 today so 36?), but obviously he's going to get burned if I keep playing 8 hours a day

in other news I'll try to get platinum while clearing all my reloads on stars because I'm putting in so much volume, I need 8100 vpp to clear both so around 22K hands
it's probably not better than FTP rakeback, but I get to table-select across sites which is especially important late at night

I'm going to sleep soon so I shouldn't grind today
this doesn't count for hours, but I played some HU sngs

it really makes a huge difference when you think about previous action, his range, your range, and THEN what the best action is
I played against a guy who I thought was a fish, but he was really just maniacal/laggy
he kind of ran me over the first two HU SNGs we played because I was in the mindset "lol it's a fish, flap nuts get paid"
but since I did notice he would fold to my raises I would start bluff raising him and running some bluffs when my range was strong
so I won the third one
in the fourth one I added some Raptor-esque head-explosion bets that brought him down to 500 chips at the first blind level at which point he started shoving ATC and declined a rematch

when you really think you are strong and your opponent is weak even really laggy players will find their fold button
conversely, when you think he's weak and you bet like 1/3 pot on the river instead of potting it he's just going to go -_-;; and call anyway

SHIP BEING IN THE BLACK FOR THE MONTH

29.45 hours and decided not to play more
oskar is on pace for 120 hours this month so I just have to beat that

32.48 hours so I'm not really putting in as much as I should
probably around 8 hours behind oskar

34.5 hours
2 hours only on the account of it being my birthday so I'm just getting ironman

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($103)
MP ($35.50)
CO ($107)
Hero (Button) ($216.55)
SB ($182.25)
BB ($100)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, A
2 folds, CO bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($8.50) Q, 3, 7 (2 players)
CO bets $6, Hero calls $6

Turn: ($20.50) 4 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $15, CO calls $15

River: ($50.50) 2 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $45, CO TANKS FOREVER and calls with AQ for da split

Total pot: $140.50 | Rake: $3

That reminded me of a thought about thin vbetting. If say we get hero-called 80% of the time, but we only have the best hand half of the time, that means we win at the end 40% of the time and our bet was in error. And if we're in that situation, we gain NOTHING by vbetting thinly. And if villain realizes this, he doesn't have to make ANY adjustments to his game. He's already exploiting us by having us bet too thinly when we're actually value-towning ourselves. He doesn't need to stop hero-calling. It's not good for metagame, it's only good for ego. Vbet thinly when you have the best hand.

happy older!
i was gonna find some trannie porn for ya, but maybe next year instead

Originally Posted by daven

happy older!
i was gonna find some trannie porn for ya, but maybe next year instead

thanks, lol

I played two hours today. I feel so retarded. It's like I have three gears: spew gear, grind gear, nit gear. 5b bluffing nits and shit even though they'll nevar fold.

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by daven

happy older!
i was gonna find some trannie porn for ya, but maybe next year instead

thanks, lol

I played two hours today. I feel so retarded. It's like I have three gears: spew gear, grind gear, nit gear. 5b bluffing nits and shit even though they'll nevar fold.

lol +1

wtf is 5b bluffing?
Who on earth has a 4b/fold range 100bb deep? Even if they're 4b bluffing 55, or A6s, they're pretty much always calling a shove.

Originally Posted by oskar

wtf is 5b bluffing?
Who on earth has a 4b/fold range 100bb deep? Even if they're 4b bluffing 55, or A6s, they're pretty much always calling a shove.

Level?

Originally Posted by oskar

wtf is 5b bluffing?
Who on earth has a 4b/fold range 100bb deep? .

me

Originally Posted by kmind

Originally Posted by oskar

wtf is 5b bluffing?
Who on earth has a 4b/fold range 100bb deep? Even if they're 4b bluffing 55, or A6s, they're pretty much always calling a shove.

Level?

yeah +1

wth

Originally Posted by oskar

wtf is 5b bluffing?
Who on earth has a 4b/fold range 100bb deep? Even if they're 4b bluffing 55, or A6s, they're pretty much always calling a shove.

they have 30% equity vs. my shoving range with A6s and 33% equity with 55 so if they 4b to 25 they have to fold to a shove

also, if they call it off with A6s then my shove is for value since I shoved better

ignoring oskar trolling my operation, I got my buyins back today
so now I'm at 38 hours, if oskar's on pace he's at 52

I was not going to tell you, but now I decided to break your spirit.
I'm at 60h, and it will be another 4-8 today.

I still think 5b bluffing is stupid as hell 100bb deep - better get a thinner value range. You never really have enough hands to know how they're going to play after a 4b, and by the time you have they're probably adjusting, and it's no use anyway.
HU... fine sometimes, but at 6m you never get enough hands with one particular player.
It just creates so much confusion... if he's 4-betting you light it means he doesn't give your 3-bets any credit... which means he might as well be 4-betting pretty (most likely too - ) thin for value. That and he will very likely be expecting you to 5b bluff at some point.
And you can't even look at the stats because even if he has a 4b/fold it's meaningless because this is such a player dependent move.
I know it's exciting, but there are better places to spend your studying on.

How about, imma search u, and sit 2 ur left, and u can kommenz ur 5b bluffing experiment?
You'll have to 3b my utg opens, I noes... I didn't say it wus gunna be EZ.

oskar: 5b bluffing is not stupid as hell, you only need like 50% folds because you actually have equity in the hand
stats are useless, but knowing your opponent isn't
for example, some people expect to get shipped on or get folds so they 4b hands like Axo because those are the hands that they open that play poorly in 3b pots, have blockers vs. a nut range, and they never call a shove because I could be bluffing with better
getting a thinner value range against this common strategy is useless because they either have JJ+,AK or A6o so there is no point in shoving TT since their range is polarized that way

you're exactly on pace, I am at 44 hours so far
I won 2 buyins despite donking off 2 buyins, I should just forget this whole "learning" thing and play "solid"

I could dig up a couple of hands where I 5b shoved 88-JJ and got called with smaller pairs, Ax... mostly HU or 3 handed, but it's definitely not like you're never getting called... if folding is bad given the dynamic, and calling oop sucks and you're ahead enough of his range, I would consider value shoving those.

But I'm just lazy... if I have a smart aggressive player who is capable of 4b bluffing a reasonable frequency then I would just leave. Unless there's a huge fish at the table that makes it worth it, but then I'd just 3b less and hope he makes a mistake by looking at my stats and not realizing I'm not 3-betting with the same frequency against him.

And then there's the sick amount of variance it creates. It's a game of small enough edges as it is... Your willingness to get into 4b/5b wars levels the playing field against players who would otherwise make tons of mistakes postflop that you could exploit. I usually just counter it by tightening my opening range when I'm oop against them, and being more willing to call with hands that I would normally 3bet from the blinds or in position.
If you create a filter in HEM with 'did 5b'=true and Hand value <88, <AK and you show a profit, I'd be surprised.
The only benefit I can see is that they might stop 4-betting you light and it makes your life easier... but then how many players ever really adjust to anyone... ever?

Originally Posted by oskar

Your willingness to get into 4b/5b wars levels the playing field against players who would otherwise make tons of mistakes postflop that you could exploit.

genius.

Originally Posted by oskar

I usually just counter it by tightening my opening range when I'm oop against them, and being more willing to call with hands that I would normally 3bet from the blinds or in position.
If you create a filter in HEM with 'did 5b'=true and Hand value <88, <AK and you show a profit, I'd be surprised.
The only benefit I can see is that they might stop 4-betting you light and it makes your life easier... but then how many players ever really adjust to anyone... ever?

I think I've been giving people credit for making adjustments when they're really just being laggtards.

Originally Posted by dev

Originally Posted by oskar

Your willingness to get into 4b/5b wars levels the playing field against players who would otherwise make tons of mistakes postflop that you could exploit.

genius.

Originally Posted by oskar

I usually just counter it by tightening my opening range when I'm oop against them, and being more willing to call with hands that I would normally 3bet from the blinds or in position.
If you create a filter in HEM with 'did 5b'=true and Hand value <88, <AK and you show a profit, I'd be surprised.
The only benefit I can see is that they might stop 4-betting you light and it makes your life easier... but then how many players ever really adjust to anyone... ever?

I think I've been giving people credit for making adjustments when they're really just being laggtards.

Damn this just sort of opened things up for me. TYTYTYTYTY.

I'm negative with those hands, but that's because I did get it in with AQ for value and ran into AK a few times
with AJ- and 77- I'm positive
guy has 12.5% 3b (just pointing out he's an aggro tard) and 40% fold to 3b so I just snap shoved over his shitty 4b

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($107.30)
Hero (Button) ($100)
SB ($102.40)
BB ($130.10)
UTG ($55.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, 2
1 fold, MP bets $3.50, Hero raises to $10.50, 2 folds, MP raises to $25.50, Hero raises to $100 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $52.50 | Rake: $0


also, vs. Marshall I did two 5b bluffs but that's because it's HU and he 4bs a lot and he called none of my shoves

53 hours so far, I'm guessing oskar has around 76 hours
I think I have to get 7 hours a day every day to break him

I won 4 BIs today, it would have been more but I felted the wrong table... I thought I flopped a set and it was on the other table where I had TT and I had 88 on the first table :/

how many tables are you playing now?

6 tables tiled so there should be no way that shit should be happening

So I tried playing FTP with some tables tiled and it was epic fail because it changed focus to another table before I did anything on the first.

I am going to play some PS before going to a job interview. So far about 60 hours. I plan on getting platinum while grinding my reload bonus from a while back. I need 5300 VPP. So like 16K hands. That's a total of 32 hours and I need to put in 10 hours on ftp to get ironman this month. So I'm shooting for 100 hours this month.

I just fucking realized how retarded oskar is

Instead of taking him up on his offer and 5b bluffing him I should instead sit to his right and snap 4b him ATC because he'll never ship anything but TT+,AQ+

I played around with 20BB shoving tables and I found out that it's like FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE TO FIGURE THIS GAME OUT
like if someone opens 30% of their range OTB for 2.5BB and calls it off with 66+, ATs+, AJo+, KJs+ vs. a 20BB shove you can actually shove ATC

but then he's like, shit, I'm gonna start calling wider and starts calling it off with hands like 44+, A7s+, A5s, KTs, ATo, KQo
well, great, we can only shove like 22+,A2s+,K8s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,A7o+,KJ o+,QJo which is 24.3% of our range

and he ends up being EV- with his hands like KTs, A5s because he doesn't have the odds to call a shove vs. our range
but if he doesn't call with those we can shove wider and show a greater profit so he's fucked either way and has to stop stealing 30% OTB (I know most people steal like 50%+)

so basically when there is no real solution to a game with 20BB stacks and actually has variable optimal reshove ranges without any kind of equillibrium (because with 30% opens BB can always keep adjusting to exploit BU's wide range) and the shortstacks at 100NL have like absolutely no understanding of optimal shoving ranges at 20BB despite playing at 20BB the entire time

so I came to the conclusion that there is no way the regs at 100NL play some kind of a mindless "non exploitable" game when they multitable, but far from it
they have no idea how to play unlimited hold'em, they are completely predictable and don't know how to deal with aggression

like this guy thinks and folds his BU to my raise a few hands before this, so I'm pretty sure he's going to 3b me like in a few hands:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($96.10)
Button ($100.25)
Hero (SB) ($102)
BB ($132.25)
UTG ($73.10)
MP ($124)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, A
4 folds, Hero bets $4, BB raises to $11, Hero calls $7

Flop: ($22) 3, 8, Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $14, Hero raises to $32, 1 fold

Total pot: $50 | Rake: $2.50


I was literally waiting for him to try to 3b me, and the flop looked like it hit my AQ or something
so the very next hand he's like OMFG RAGE:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($100.25)
Hero (Button) ($124.50)
SB ($107.25)
BB ($73.10)
UTG ($124)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, 9
2 folds, Hero bets $2.50, SB raises to $9, 1 fold, Hero raises to $18, TANKS FOREVER, 1 fold

Total pot: $19 | Rake: $0

and then he plays an orbit and leaves the table
get fucked

haha love it

5b bluffing is pretty dumb.

Originally Posted by AnTman_69

5b bluffing is pretty dumb.

ok, say every time you 3b my button raise from the blinds I 4b you
how are you going to counteract that? flat sum 4bs? stop 3b bluffing me?

really?
If you 4b your whole opening range then I can get it in with any pair and some AJ+ ATs+... I mean it's so ridiculously exploitable that... well idk wtf you're trying to proove here. I'm just gonna value ship a shitton against you and party wif ur moniez afterwards.

Or to put it differently: I don't need a 5b-bluffing range there, sparky.
I'd still 3b-bluff a little, but just to keep you going.

There are two 6m regs that have a ridiculous btn 3b% and play pretty solid otherwise. It's something like 18%. I don't see why I should bother bluffing. They're still calling too many 4-bets and take their marginal hands too far in 3b pot... or like omg J37 or omg TT5 - gotta bluff ship my entire range.
You don't really need a book to see what to do here.

And I want to take the opportunity to thank Cardrunners and Co for such epic cash cows like the delayed reverse float and the 5b bluff.
But srzly... get your fps out, and stop overdoing shit because it's really not that clever.

That last post might end this discussion... could you delete it please?

Originally Posted by oskar

really?
If you 4b your whole opening range then I can get it in with any pair and some AJ+ ATs+... I mean it's so ridiculously exploitable that... well idk wtf you're trying to proove here. I'm just gonna value ship a shitton against you and party wif ur moniez afterwards.

Or to put it differently: I don't need a 5b-bluffing range there, sparky.
I'd still 3b-bluff a little, but just to keep you going.

There are two 6m regs that have a ridiculous btn 3b% and play pretty solid otherwise. It's something like 18%. I don't see why I should bother bluffing. They're still calling too many 4-bets and take their marginal hands too far in 3b pot... or like omg J37 or omg TT5 - gotta bluff ship my entire range.
You don't really need a book to see what to do here.

And I want to take the opportunity to thank Cardrunners and Co for such epic cash cows like the delayed reverse float and the 5b bluff.
But srzly... get your fps out, and stop overdoing shit because it's really not that clever.

if you're getting it in with AT that's called a 5b bluff because your 3b was a bluff and you seriously can't expect me to call with worse

the widest my stack off range is going to get is AQ+,TT+
as in if you felt 55 you're never getting it in as a dominating favorite and you have 33% equity vs. my felt range

also, of course I would only do this if you're 3b bluffing a decent amount, if you're not 3b bluffing a decent amount I might as well just fold

you two need to just play HU for rollz and end this once and for all.

oskar will claim that HU ranges are wider and that you can 5b bluff in HU but not in 6m

oskar if you're 5bet shoving ATs it's a bluff (unless you expect to get called by worse?). You just made the correct adjustment to someone who 4bet/folds too much -- 5bet bluffing hooray.

also the oop float is a great line against regs who cbet/give up. If I defend a hand like 87s vs a steal and the flop is A54r then c/c, c/f, b/f is going to show a huge profit against most FR regs at least.

I don't see what you have against these lines?

Originally Posted by badgers

also the oop float is a great line against regs who cbet/give up. If I defend a hand like 87s vs a steal and the flop is A54r then c/c, c/f, b/f is going to show a huge profit against most FR regs at least.

I don't see what you have against these lines?

because folding to turn barrels is a huge leak, at least in 6m
if you're folding more than 40% of the time to turn barrels then obv it's profitable to barrel all my air against you
and I would guess a lot of people who fold to less than 50% cbets also fold to a lot of turn barrels so it's even more profitable for the pfr to just plan on firing two streets and take down a decent-sized pot

also a problem with the OOP float is that I'll check back a weak Ax on the turn and call river
but if you float IP you can bet turn AND river if you so wish after I check turn to you so it becomes hard to bluff catch without getting valuetowned a lot

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...10.html#909922

if villain is double barreling with a high frequency then that is a bad villain to take this line against. I'm not saying do it vs. everyone but it is a really useful line if you use it against the right players.

Originally Posted by badgers

if villain is double barreling with a high frequency then that is a bad villain to take this line against. I'm not saying do it vs. everyone but it is a really useful line if you use it against the right players.

yeah that's true, but I do it rarely because a lot of the time you run into middle pair that pot controls turn and gets curious or something

not sure what the link up there was for about example when not to cbet

so far 66 hours this month so while I'm kinda behind, but going for platinum on stars so I can grind out the last 1K VPPs of my bonus with better RB so 90 hours this month guaranteed

"getting my affairs in order" because I'm about to get banned
70.00 hours so far, I think I'll try to squeeze out 25 hours in the last three days to get platinum
failing that, mass grind FR