Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,257,000 Posts!
Poker ForumBeginners Circle

Using HUD

Results 1 to 72 of 72
  1. #1

    Question Using HUD

    Hi,
    I usually play with no HUD and just a few days i found a free HUD, should i use it?
    is it better to play with one than without?
  2. #2
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Make sure your poker site allows the use of HUD, just to be sure you're not breaking their terms. If you're breaking their terms to use a poker tracking software, then either A) don't use a HUD on their site or B) deposit on a site that allows tracking software.

    Other than that, yes. Using a HUD is probably going to be a good thing for most players at most stakes.

    Ultimately, the HUD is tracking information that is an overload for you to pay attention to while still playing well. There is a lot you can observe on your own, though. In general, a HUD is most useful when you've got a thousand or ten thousand hands played against a single opponent. Up until then, your own notion of a villain's play style will guide you to correct decisions about as often as the HUD will.

    There's a lot to understand about what the HUD is telling you, and I suggest you start with learning exactly what each stat is and is NOT. Learning about probability and statistics goes without saying, as you'll need to understand what the HUD is showing you. It's showing you statistics. Understanding the context of those statistics and how wide a range of values they actually represent is worthwhile for your sanity, in my opinion.
  3. #3
    Thanks MadMojo

    That explains a lot.

    thank you, i'll keep that in mind when i'm playing using a HUD.
  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,595
    Location
    UK
    which site are you playing on , and which hud are you aiming to use?.
  5. #5
    Everything the monkey said.

    Fwiw, I find I play much better without a HUD. That's because I find myself looking for a stat to justify making the decision I want to though, rather than using a combination of stats that would more likely lead me to the correct decision. The sample size is the biggest problem and it really is important to understand what the stats mean e.g. if villain is raising 15% of flops over a large sample, what can we infer?

    There's still no substitute for notes imo too. Most villains at the micro stakes have huge bet sizing and timing tells and rarely vary their lines e.g. when they bet a wet flop they have something, otherwise they check fold. Just looking purely at a cbet stat won't help you in those spots.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    which site are you playing on , and which hud are you aiming to use?.
    I'm playing in pokerstars.
    Right now i dont want to spend money on a HUD so i'm using Hitman, I plan to get Hm2 when i have the funds to buy it.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    Everything the monkey said.

    Fwiw, I find I play much better without a HUD. That's because I find myself looking for a stat to justify making the decision I want to though, rather than using a combination of stats that would more likely lead me to the correct decision. The sample size is the biggest problem and it really is important to understand what the stats mean e.g. if villain is raising 15% of flops over a large sample, what can we infer?

    There's still no substitute for notes imo too. Most villains at the micro stakes have huge bet sizing and timing tells and rarely vary their lines e.g. when they bet a wet flop they have something, otherwise they check fold. Just looking purely at a cbet stat won't help you in those spots.
    thanks for the advice
  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,595
    Location
    UK
    theres a free version of jivaro that works on stars . PT4 and HEM2 both have a months free trial and if you're a glutton for punishment fpdb is free but harder to setup
  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,595
    Location
    UK
    if you ant to avoid using a HUD , skypoker ( uk players ) and unibet are both hud free.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    theres a free version of jivaro that works on stars . PT4 and HEM2 both have a months free trial and if you're a glutton for punishment fpdb is free but harder to setup
    Thanks
    found the free jivaro and i dont plan to use the free tiral for now.
    my friend said that i should get the free trial when i have the money to buy it and use the trial for choosing the preferred HUD for me , so that i can get accustom with the HUD. because HM2 and PT4 may work the same but different setup.
  11. #11
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    There's no harm in using jivaro in the mean time. There's probably even advantage of exposing yourself to the stats and their usage sooner than later.
    (I know nothing about jivaro. I assume it is not junk, 'cause Keith suggested it.)

    I mean... depending on your stakes, the actual investment of your money into the poker tracker could be more than your BR. It's worthwhile to note that you are hoping to increase your winrate by using the HUD, so it's a part of your overall poker winnings, and the cost is a minus on your BR.

    Let's say you were winning 8 bb/100 before you bought the HUD. Using the HUD brings your winrate up to 10 bb/100 or a difference of 2 bb/100 above your prior winrate. It's the 2 bb/100 that you use to justify the cost of the software. You would have earned the other 8 bb/100 even without the software.

    It's something to think about.

    The cost/benefit analysis of the HUD is always going to be a negative in the short term. If you're playing micro-stakes, then the short term is probably a bit longer than your first assumption. Somewhere around 25NL, the cost of tracking software is enough of a smaller %-age of your BR to make the purchase a no-brainer. At 10NL, if you feel confident that you'll be stepping up to 25NL eventually, you can justify the purchase. Below 10NL, I suggest you think of the purchase as a partial waste of money that is justified because it makes your hobby more enjoyable.
  12. #12
    got it, i'll try jivaro out today.
    thanks MadMojo.

    this is going to be a long road, playing micro stakes... I'm guessing it will be a month or 2 before a saved enough for the real thing
  13. #13
    wow, that took me longer than i thought.
    took almost 2 months to decide which HUD to use.
    Using HM2 now, jivaro was a good choice until i found out i cant use it on some rooms.
  14. #14
    now this is nice.
    I can use hm2 in betonline
  15. #15
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    What stats are you using on your HUD?
  16. #16
    I was lurking reddit and i just followed the stats they have on.
    Here's the link where i followed my stats.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comme..._copilot_what/
  17. #17
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    So, you use all of this and nothing else?

    3bet, fold to 3bet, steal/fold to steal, cbet/fold to cbet, AGG and Aggression Factor, turn cbet/fold to turn cbet, wtsd, W$SD, # of hands played


    I'm just trying to help. I have a decent grasp of probability and statistics, and I have a lot to say about the importance of knowing how many occurances have contributed to a stat. The # of hands is important, but people don't face every possible decision in each hand.

    So if you look at the 3bet stat, you want to know how many times Villain has had the opportunity to 3bet. The convergence they speak of in your link is an important thing to understand when you're using a HUD. Even just learning a "feel" for the rate of convergence for these type of stats (Bernoulli trials, if you like) can help you to understand how the stats are just a broad guide. They are not the exact percentage of times opponent will do that. They are the percentage of times opponent has done that. Convergence helps us understand how to make accurate predictions using math.


    If you don't care, then that's cool, too. I geek out on this stuff, but I know that most people don't.


    EDIT: Ultimately this is about just not including those stats that take forever to converge in your HUD. They are still in the software and you can access them by clicking in-game if you need them, but for the most part, de-cluttering your HUD can actually give you a mental edge.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 05-15-2016 at 10:39 PM.
  18. #18
    Thanks for the advice mojo, i do appreciate it .
    btw.. what stats do you think i should have on my HUD?
  19. #19
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Disclaimer: I never used a HUD. I played on Bovada, where a HUD would be next to pointless to bother with. Plenty of other people here use a HUD and would be better suited to give you firsthand advice.

    ***
    Something like this:
    VPIP / PFR / 3-bet
    C-bet / fold to C-bet

    First row is PRE, 2nd row is OTT. Nothing after that is worthy of keeping on screen. Click into the HUD to open up the bigger stat sheet when you need to make a close call OTR.

    All of those stats should have the number of opportunities next to it. Any stat with less than ~100 opportunities is really a broad guideline - nothing more than what your gut told you already. Really, less than ~1,000 opportunities still has surprisingly broad error bars.

    I'm talking about the error bars on stats and the fact that they represent a broad +/- spread of values. Even with the stated value as the most probable value, but if it's +/- 10%, then it's really not telling you anything much. Even if it's +/- 5%, that represents a lot of combos in a range and makes it unwise to simply trust the stat as though it's a perfect guide.

    Again, stats that don't have many opportunities are going to take forever to converge, and it's the convergence that I'm talking about when I talk about error bars. For stats that are nowhere near convergence, your own sensibilities and observations as a poker player will mean more than the stats do.

    ***
    I think you should include stats that you use regularly, and those stats should be the ones that converge most quickly.
    I think you should not include stats that make you a lazy player who is tempted to just click buttons 'cause of numbers.
    I think you should not include stats that don't reflect specific decisions (like AF or Agg).

    In that article you linked, someone said they use Agg for assigning player-types to their opponents. I think if you need this number to make that kind of broad generalized statement, then you're not paying enough attention to the action on the table, and would probably be better off not using a HUD at all for a while until you just always notice stuff like that.
  20. #20
    thanks.. it works smoother.. thanks mojo
  21. #21
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
  22. #22
    just a question mojo,

    You said you play in bovada, will card catcher help me?
  23. #23
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamerlife View Post
    just a question mojo,

    You said you play in bovada, will card catcher help me?
    Read my prior post about how many times an opportunity has to happen before you can consider a stat as anything more than a broad guide. My general rule of thumb is less than 1,000 opportunities is not really telling you much.

    The thing about Bovada is that the anonymous players mean that you can't track stats on a player from session to session. At most, you may get a few hundred hands against a player in one day. You can't even link that player's stats to the same player on another table, so the convergence is just never going to go above what you can achieve in a single session. As such, they're pretty useless, IMO.

    They definitely do tell you things about the player, but they don't tell you much. What they do tell you is stuff that you should already have a general sense of ... like... this guy calls too much PRE... this guy almost always C-bets in HU pots, etc.

    With low convergence, the loose statements like, "too much" or "almost always" are basically all the stats can tell you.

    If the software is free, then go ahead and try it out. It wont hurt to be familiar with using a HUD, but I caution you to hold those stats with healthy skepticism on Bovada, simply due to the anonymous players.
  24. #24
    Thanks again mojo
  25. #25
    I downloaded a new HUD but unfortunately it doesn't work for PS..
    Looks cool tho.
    http://drivehud.com/
  26. #26
    Does Hitman-6max only support 6-max and not full ring?
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamerlife View Post
    I downloaded a new HUD but unfortunately it doesn't work for PS..
    Looks cool tho.
    http://drivehud.com/
    I may be late in the game here to help you, but thought I'd offer my input anyway in regards to choosing what stats to include.

    I've built a few hundred HUDs in my day, but always seem to come back to the same core stats that normalize fairly quickly. There's no point in having stats like "villain reraises river in 3-bet pot", since it would take a sample of like 100k hands to be relevant.

    Stats that normalize quickly enough include VPIP, PFR, AGG%, Steal, c-bet, fold to c-bet, and positional stats like RFI (Raise First In), 3-bet vs "position", fold to resteal, donk bet, and bet vs. missed c-bet. I also like having stats that are BvB specific. My advice is to avoid using vs. hero stats and really in depth stuff (well maybe in a popup), unless you are able to accumulate 10k+ hands vs the regs you face. I'd just go with the stats I mentioned and call it a day.

    However, if you are new to poker.. I'd just go with VPIP, PFR, AGG%.. VPIP to identify bad players and extremely tight players, PFR to form ranges (eventually), and Agg% to figure out what post-flop betting frequencies are likely to be.. or crudely, whether they are aggro or not. I'd play like 100k hands with those 3 basic stats.. at that point, you will likely know what other stats you'd like to know.. or whether you even want to use a HUD.

    I hope this helps.
  28. #28
    thanks Outlaw,

    I'm happy to get any help i can get
  29. #29
    this so easy to use


    Now i really want drivehud to make one for PS...
  30. #30
    After reading about poker analyzer , i think ill give it a try, they made hitman so it must be good
    http://www.acepokersolutions.com/pok...s-software.php
  31. #31
    ok.. i tried playing without a HUD just for fun and it feels like i lost an arm or something...
    I guess im getting too dependent on it..
  32. #32
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Reminds me of one of the best drummers I ever knew. He used to set his kit up left-handed one week out of every month, just to force himself to be equally skilled with both hands. He was right-handed, which is pertinent, I guess.

    That's not really related directly to poker... he was a good guy, though. Amazing drummer.
    Anyway...

    Be vigilant against lazy poker, but embrace anything that allows you to make quality decisions when put to the time crunch. I'm guessing spending a session w/o a HUD every once in a while, when you're in the mood for it, is a great way to force yourself to examine whether you're using it to be lazy or to reduce mental fatigue when it most counts. Probably a bit of both, so worth knowing what parts of your HUD cater to what motivator, or at least what you might notice about yourself as a signal that you're doing the lazy thing and to stop it.

    There's a lot to pay attention to in a poker game. The more you do it, the more the paying attention becomes 2nd nature, but it's a long road to get there. Reducing the attention load in one area can open up time to pay attention to other things. If that's what you're doing by using the HUD, then I think you'll be well rewarded in personal improvement.
  33. #33
    thanks.. ill do just that about once a week.
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamerlife View Post
    Now i really want drivehud to make one for PS...
    My wish from 2 months ago actually came true...
  35. #35
    after seeing a vid by Doug... i think ill be transferring to BOL...
  36. #36
    DH works on 888 now .

    I wonder whats the next site DH will support.
  37. #37
    Now it works for ACR.. i think they got most of the popular poker sites now
  38. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,595
    Location
    UK
    currently alpha testing HEM3 , not that impressed so far but i'm guessing its early in development . hud designer is pt4 hud designer , other parts are hem 2 .
    came across another HUD today , hand2note which is free for 25nl and lower and 9$ mtts and lower.boasts positional hud stats and dynamic or static huds.downloaded it and looking at it now . doesn't look easy to set up but could be a lot more advanced than hem /pt
  39. #39
    where do i get hm3? i tried looking for that before but i cant find where to get the beta
  40. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,595
    Location
    UK
    its still in alpha and limited number of testers. Tried hand2note yesterday and its not really user friendly, doesn't work on zoom tables without starshelper or zomething else which have their own hud anyway . seems to defeat the point
    Last edited by Keith; 11-27-2016 at 03:15 PM.
  41. #41
    Cool.. Thanks for the info.
  42. #42
    HUD helps a lot when you're playing 6+ tables at the same time.
  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by simana View Post
    HUD helps a lot when you're playing 6+ tables at the same time.
    and also good for reviewing your game after
  44. #44
    reviewing my hands.... getting a bit depressed, looking at it some hands i may have win and folded and some hand i could have cut loses in.
  45. #45
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    That's the reason to NOT be depressed, bro. Finding leaks is the whole point of being a dedicated poker player. It requires a demonstrable amount of logic and creative thinking to suss them out. Cudos for being a sentient being!

    Try to recognize the silliness of pretending you were playing (or anyone ever will play) flawless poker. You wont, but neither will they. You don't have to be perfect, you only have to be more dedicated to finding and plugging leaks than they are.

    Keep up the good work!
  46. #46
    thanks mojo , i'll keep at it
  47. #47
    just wondering, how much would HUD affect my live game.
  48. #48
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiharay View Post
    just wondering, how much would HUD affect my live game.
    I think it's a bad idea, but I'm not necessarily right. Here's why I don't like it:

    It will likely require you to personally input all players' actions in order to know what it's tracking.
    This will occupy too much time and mental effort which you will not be spending watching and thinking about your opponents.
    This attention is the backbone of live poker, and if you ignore it, your chips will leave you for a more attentive owner.

    Even if the HUD somehow tracks those plays for you, you still face the problem of statistical convergence. You need many thousands of hands on an opponent to get any real benefit beyond what your poker gut is already telling you about him. The pace of live poker is glacial, and it'll take forever for your data set to be meaningful.

    Also... you'll look like a nerd / tryhard which may turn off casual players from being your fish.

    EDIT: Note: nerds and tryhards are the best, but LOOKING like one is antithetical to your goals.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 04-07-2017 at 10:22 AM.
  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiharay View Post
    just wondering, how much would HUD affect my live game.
    do you mean using live HUD?

    its pretty good for studying your hand but i suggest going with hand written notes.you can remember it better writing it down than saving than pluging it on your cellphone/tablet.
  50. #50
    I love putting notes on the players. Not sure if it can be done on live tournaments
  51. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ogii3 View Post
    I love putting notes on the players. Not sure if it can be done on live tournaments
    Its allowed to bring paper and pen in a live tournaments, been doing that for years. For moblie app tracking, i suggest you ask the house if they allow it.
  52. #52
    thank you your post was very informative
  53. #53
    For those playing in ignition and using a card catcher or DriveHUD. Just update the software and it should do the job.

    DriveHUD fix-http://drivehud.com/blog/forums/topi...-v-1-0-9-1209/
    card catcher fix-http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=3506

    good luck.
    Last edited by Gamerlife; 04-21-2017 at 06:47 PM.
  54. #54
    thanks for info..
    I believe i wasn't that clear with my question last time.

    I wanted to ask if how much does playing online with a HUD affect your live games.
  55. #55
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Ah. I misunderstood.

    I suppose it will help you, but in circumspect ways.

    E.g. using a HUD in online play may help you link the numbers you see in your HUD to what your poker gut is telling you. That's positive feedback which will help you form mental links between specific observations and what they mean about your strategy against that player.

    The benefit isn't in anything directly related to the HUD, but in the fact that you're using more / different brainpower to think about the game. The more ways you can think about something, the more you can see creative solutions to the problems it presents.


    E.g. Using a HUD in online play will present you with a lot of numerical values associated with the game. Presumably, you're using math and probability theory to make sense of those numbers and how they guide your decisions.

    Having spent more time studying this math, you are probably faster at the mundane calculations that you do over and over again when analyzing those numbers. This can give you an edge over other live players who don't tend to think as mathematically about the game.


    Again, the benefit isn't directly related to the HUD, but it is a product of you expanding the ways you think about the game.
  56. #56
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    7,033
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Another one:

    I strongly suggest that you use a poker equity calculator when you study your hands away from the tables.

    Here's a great exercise:
    1) Assume you're playing your favorite poker game
    2) Assume you're sitting UTG
    3) What is your range to open from this position?
    This percentage of hands is your VPIP from UTG.

    Repeat
    1) Assume you're playing your favorite poker game
    2) Assume the action is folded to you PRE
    3) What is your range to open from each position?
    This percentage of hands is not your VPIP from each position (since sometimes it's not folded to you, and you don't fold), but it's a good guide for your opening hand ranges and the associated percentages that go with those ranges.

    You now know what those ranges are in %-ages.
    This is going to form your initial baseline for what those pre-flop %-ages mean in your HUD.

    So when you're first learning to start putting your opponents on ranges, you'll assume the % you see for their preflop action represents nearly the same hands that you'd be using, when you're playing the same %-age.

    Makes sense?


    So, if you can now link your gut feeling to the number you're familiar with in your HUD, and you can further link that number in your HUD to a range of hands... well... you're way ahead of the casual live player. You're starting to put your opponents on ranges and that will allow you to make more intelligent tactical decisions against them.
  57. #57
    looks like i should start using one... i was a bit worried that it would harm my live games.. i usually play live more than online.
  58. #58
    BankItDrew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    8,300
    Location
    Losing Prop Bets
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiharay View Post
    looks like i should start using one... i was a bit worried that it would harm my live games.. i usually play live more than online.
    Winning poker requires adjustments.
  59. #59
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Just to contribute: I use PT4 with Winning Poker Network and DriveHUD with BetOnline. I find that DriveHUD is a lot smoother, faster, and "cleaner" on the screen than using the card catcher with PT4. Both (DriveHUD and the CardCatcher) are made by AcePokerSolutions.

    DriveHUD is new so they're still working on and it expanding it but it's a very, very good piece of software for BetOnline. When given the choice of using one or the other (like on WPN) of course I go with PT4 but on BetOnline, that's not an option without the card catcher.

    Trust me: Give DriveHUD a look. I think it has a bright future.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  60. #60
    I'm happy DriveHUD release a patch for BOL. took them a while but all back to the norm.
  61. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSlickBaby View Post
    Just to contribute: I use PT4 with Winning Poker Network and DriveHUD with BetOnline. I find that DriveHUD is a lot smoother, faster, and "cleaner" on the screen than using the card catcher with PT4. Both (DriveHUD and the CardCatcher) are made by AcePokerSolutions.

    DriveHUD is new so they're still working on and it expanding it but it's a very, very good piece of software for BetOnline. When given the choice of using one or the other (like on WPN) of course I go with PT4 but on BetOnline, that's not an option without the card catcher.

    Trust me: Give DriveHUD a look. I think it has a bright future.
    I'll check it out. got to start somewhere
  62. #62
    @BigSlickBaby and Gamerlife

    I got DriveHUD and they just updated, how do i let the heat map pop-up?
  63. #63
    BigSlickBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    241
    Location
    USA (New York)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiharay View Post
    @BigSlickBaby and Gamerlife

    I got DriveHUD and they just updated, how do i let the heat map pop-up?
    Not sure as I haven't played on BetOnline since the heat map update and that's the only network I use DriveHUD on since PT4/HM2 work with WPN. I'll look into it as I'm excited about the heat maps, too.
    Shove dick in their mouth, then I'm out...

    - Snoop Do-double-g, bitch.
  64. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiharay View Post
    @BigSlickBaby and Gamerlife

    I got DriveHUD and they just updated, how do i let the heat map pop-up?
    The heat map only pop-up when you are using the beta version, you just drag and drop.. easy
  65. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamerlife View Post
    The heat map only pop-up when you are using the beta version, you just drag and drop.. easy
    thanks
  66. #66
    got a winrate of 7bb/100 for this month which is the highest winrate i ever got since i started using a HUD. i do hope it maintain cuz usually im on 1~4bb/100
  67. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    5
    Location
    Alabama
    I need help trying to understand what VPP AGG and all that stuff means
  68. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,595
    Location
    UK
  69. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jmills0315 View Post
    I need help trying to understand what VPP AGG and all that stuff means
    Check the link that Keith gave, you should be able to find what all the stats mean. btw, if your using a HUD you can check the manual and it should have a list of stats definitions
  70. #70
    they release an new tuturial video.





    a fast way to make a HUD. Honestly, the pop-up heatmap is one of the most helpful feature for me.
  71. #71
    I can use the HUD in WilliamHillPoker
  72. #72
    I think i'll need to do an intense study off the table for a while. i only break even for last month. I didnt lose money buy i didnt earn anything...... wasted my time for this month.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •