TPTK small 4 bet pot

I don't think i'm chuffed with the 4 bet it would be pretty gross getting 5 bet. flop is lol. villain is 25/6 over solid sample 3b 2%... i def hate my 4 bet.
I assume FTR is all about folding the flop. although I cant see what beats me. suppose he can have sets but all are unlikely I don't see 2 pair callin the 4b pre or AA4455 for that matter which leaves AK and maybe AQ or some random spazzliture.

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($28.59) 114bb
UTG+1 ($25.10) 100bb
MP1 ($20.77) 83bb
MP2 ($7.86) 31bb
MP3 ($30.41) 122bb
CO ($12.50) 50bb
kick (BTN) ($25.96) 104bb
SB ($26.87) 107bb
BB ($42.89) 172bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 9 players) kick is BTN
6 folds, kick raises to $0.62, SB raises to $1.25, 1 fold, kick raises to $3, SB calls $1.75

Flop: ($6.25, 2 players)
SB goes all-in $23.87, $22.96 to kick ($22.96)?

just realized we have history... on a different table; he limped UTG 88 I iso on button JTo and flopped a straight to stack his bottom set, happened a little earlier than this he might have remembered me.
I wasn't aware we had this history at the time of playing the hand.

Seems very straightforward to me. I'd say Hero is ahead here well over 50% of the time, and the call is easy. I'd be putting Villains range at the shove as
{ 44+, A2+ } maybe some 76 in there, depending on if Villain plays SCs so aggro from blinds.

You should know about your history, when villain l/c 88 from utg you should make note.

This hand doesn't make sense. I doubt he 3bets 55 or 44 pf, I doubt he open shoves flop with AA, and he isn't doing this with JJ-KK very often. He has AK a lot of the time, AQ sometimes, and I'd dare to say he has 23 sometimes too, he could still be tilting about the 88 vs JT, so 3bet calling 23 to try and cooler you is not out of the question, I've made stupid plays like this before when tilted.

I fold and show so he thinks this is a good way to bluff me and a bad way to get value from me. Wouldn't make the same fold next time.

MMM - he's 2% 3bet, I don't believe for a minute he's shoving 66-KK for 4x pot on an A-high flop in a 4bet pot. The 4bet is small enough that he might setmine with 44/55, but I don't think he spazzes and shoves them, and I'm not even convinced we can put them in his 3bet range in the first place since it's so tight.

It's a wierd hand, certainly a head-scratching moment when he makes that shove. I suspect you're ahead of AQ or chopping with another AK, but I'm still folding the flop.

Wierd as it may sound, and as unlikely as it is combos wise, I think AA is possible - if you have AA here I think you want to keep the aggro dynamic alive and a 5bet really turns your hand face up, so he might very well flat the 4bet and shove any flop.

And yeah, I prefer flatting the 3bet preflop and playing in position.

call button is on the right

also 4b nearly 100procent

Calling it off. He doesn't 3bet 44/55 and AA is only 1 combo which would be really weird to play this way. Expect to see AK and a rare AQ.

I actually expect to see something completely dumb like 88

Snap call.

Are there a lot of players as retarded as villain at 25nl?

Fist pump snap call.

I also expect to see something dumb here.

my dumb opinion?

a villain w/ 2% 3bet that flat a BTN zmall 4bet and leadz AI thiz flop haz 99% AA here,he doez thiz bet cauze he knowz you will never fold AK

but i know, i am too tight too play diff in thiz zpot.

zorry for the "z" in the wordz but the letter iz replacing iz not working anymore on my keypad.

Originally Posted by Razvan729

he doez thiz bet cauze he knowz you will never fold AK

Fish don't think like this, and I want to know how your nitbrain can give a villain you know very little about 1 combo 99% of the time.

razs response is the one I was expecting here and all I can say is; I was seriously lucky not to run into 99% of his range when I called here. not lucky enuf to win the hand but I got the money in very good.
further more I did not fist pump snap call. I couldn't formulate any kind of range that had me beat so expecting to see trash bluffs at least sometimes and AK on others I called.

Originally Posted by bikes

also 4b nearly 100procent

Is this because of positions or history or hand strength or a mixture. do you feel we can 4 bet fold? or shove over if he 5 bet and have some kind of fold equity?

Originally Posted by d0zer

Fish don't think like this, and I want to know how your nitbrain can give a villain you know very little about 1 combo 99% of the time.

well you gave your own anzwer in the bold.

fish you say? i agree, he could be, in this case he could have here A5, A4, 55,44 , other Ax.,TT+

but you also say " villain you know very little " so you cant really asume he regularly goez AI here w/ worse Ax , unerpair, bluff and OP wrote : "villain is 25/6 over solid sample 3b 2%" so you cant asume iz regurlarly 3betting/calling crap.

so, combining the little info ( no read other then stat) and the 2% 3bet over solid sample, the only logic conclusion w/o any other info is that we are beat here always by AA. he can of course have worse, i dont doubt that, but you have no info to you make believe he bluffz/zemibluffz enough timez to make a +EV call here zince we need 44% equity, a lot of equity we need juzt to breakeven.

if on thiz flop he doez thiz 60% timez AA and 40 % timez w/ any kind of crap, the call iz ztill bad and -EV.

you zaid you got the money in good, but w/ juzt one hand of bluff cauze you gave no other readz about hiz bluffing, can you be zure he doez it enough timez zince he did not zhow maniac tendenciez in your zolid zample?

on screen keyboard sir, your zzzzz make your posts god awful and tilting to read and you use S in your last post occasionally

i am sorry, really, i realize iz hard to read, but it work one time then dont. sorry for the writing again.

I think he rarely has AA after this flop bet.

rav, your game could really use better understanding of how bad players think about the game. You either project your inner nit on a villain, assuming they think like you, or you make shit up about how they play to support your conclusions.

You also appear to need work on probabilities and combination math. Limiting a villain's range to one combo here requires an incredibly strong read because of how mathematically unlikely it is.

Your handreading also needs work because fish don't often just massively donk open jam the nuts into initiative. Your player reading needs work because when you say "we have no info", and then "only logical conclusion", well we have a decent sample of 25/6, and a 3bet stat that suggests wider than AA, his 3bet sizing sucks and he called a 4bet pot OOP. Defo fish that isn't totally passive. This is all information we can use to give the villain some combinations of spazz bluffs, and given how many combos that legit beat us, we don't need a very high spazz bluff frequency to make this call.

so your opinion is that more likely to do it w/ bluff then 44/55/AA/A5/A4?

Originally Posted by Razvan729

so your opinion is that more likely to do it w/ bluff then 44/55/AA/A5/A4?

We don't need to be thinking that deep.

Our opponent's line is bizarre and spazzy.

Technically it's an over bet, but with about 2 pot sized bets behind and how easily 2 bets could go in here if he didn't shove into us, we're not giving excessive action here.

Since we're not calling off a gross amount of money relative to the pot, we have a very good hand and our opponent's line makes very little sense, I'm going to look this up every time.

I'm not sure I would fold *any* Ace here, but I would have to think about it. AK is a no-brainer. If he can beat my hand, good for him and I hope I suck out.

Originally Posted by d0zer

rav, your game could really use ...

pretty sure rav's biggest leak is refusing to take better players' advice and spending too much time attempting to prove his points while ignoring others' advice on where/why his thought process is going wrong

(honestly intended as constructive criticism, no hate)

@ rpm , i dont get it wrong , i know it aint about hate

i just dont think he will bluff so often to make the call +EV since in a solid sample , like OP said, he showed no inclination to bluff, which he should have showed if he is bluffing more then 45% of time here to make our call right.
i have seen a lot of fishes that are very loose preflop but only stack off w/ 2pair + postflop.

again, my opinion only.

WOOOOOSH

Originally Posted by Razvan729

i have seen a lot of fishes that are very loose preflop but only stack off w/ 2pair + postflop.

I see this as well, particularly in live games. However, this isn't a static thing!

When you build a pots.
When you push them around.
...and as they get impatient losing medium sized pots.

That dynamic will change and they'll pick spots to fight back or just go with a hand. And they will do it in poor/strange ways because they don't know how to pick good spots.

Then they go broke and leave the table...

Originally Posted by Razvan729

my dumb opinion?

a villain w/ 2% 3bet that flat a BTN zmall 4bet and leadz AI thiz flop haz 99% AA here,he doez thiz bet cauze he knowz you will never fold AK

but i know, i am too tight too play diff in thiz zpot.

zorry for the "z" in the wordz but the letter iz replacing iz not working anymore on my keypad.

So villain has the 1 possible combo of AA 99% of the time. This means he's several hundred times more likely to have AA than some kind of spazz......This is the easiest call I've ever seen.

I don't like talk of snap calling for stacks with tptk, it's obviously not a snap call. An easy call maybe, but fist pump snap call does not give us time to adjust ranges and calculate equity etc. I realise I'm probably making a mistake by folding this, but I'm folding it giving villain AK AQ A4 A5 44 55 23 and some spazz bluffs. I'm struggling to put this villain on an accurate range.

Raz, if he's bad enough to donk shove AA for 4x the pot on this flop against a 4better, he's bad enough to do this with lots of other hands. You really do need to listen to people like rpm, your range assignment is awful. Whatever villain has, we now know he's an idiot because of this flop shove. So stop assuming he has only the nuts, it's simply not true and thinking like this is costing you $$$.

4-betting AK without being happy to get in on an A high flop without some magnificent reads makes 4-betting AK a dreadful mistake (although in this case less than usual due to the smaller than usual bet sizes).