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Stake Differences (Full Ring)

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  1. #1

    Default Stake Differences (Full Ring)

    When I first started playing online poker cash games, one of the most fascinating questions that I wanted answered was: "What are the differences between the stakes?" I wanted to know what bad plays were the $2NL players making and what great plays were the $1000NL players making? I decided to document my journey and highlight the answers to those questions as I progressed. Obviously, there is not a succinct, accurate answer that could be given to that question since poker is always changing, players play @ different levels of skill and awareness, PLUS your individual style and game will create different dynamics and results than my style will.

    Nevertheless, I thought it might be at least fun if not an informative thread to discuss the differences between the stakes. This question DOES come up a lot in the form of "I'm thinking of moving up from X stakes to Y stakes, can you tell me the differences?" I've linked to my retrospectives for each stake I've been through to date below. Since this is the "Beginner's Circle", it could be argued that the discussion should be limited to as high as $25NL, however, I think we can discuss any limit since many beginners are interested in those, too. When reflecting on the differences between stakes, be sure to mention the site you play on, when you played, the stakes, the number of tables you play, and a brief description of your style. Let's keep it limited to full ring games.

    For me, I play full ring @ Stars in a style I consider semi-loose and aggressive. The stakes, dates, and # of tables are noted below:

    $2NL retrospective From 12/13/2008 - 01/22/2009 1 tabling
    $5NL retrospective From 01/22/2009 - 03/03/2009 2 tabling
    $10NL retrospective From 03/03/2009 - 06/18/2009 3 tabling
    $25NL retrospective From 06/18/2009 - 07/18/2009 4 tabling
    MICRO STAKES RETROSPECTIVE
    $50NL retrospective From 07/18/2009 - 11/24/2009 5 tabling
    $100NL retrospective From 11/24/2009 - 02/04/2010 6 tabling

    If nothing else, this will be a nice, convenient spot for me to link for future queries about the differences between the stakes since I have made several links and comments in the past in other threads.

    I'll also edit this post for any future stakes IF I am fortunate enough to move past them. In fact, I'll have a $100NL retrospective within the next day or two.

    Updated 02/10/2010 - Added $100NL
    - Jason

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason
    In fact, I'll have a $100NL retrospective within the next day or two.
    Great job moving up. Your progress has been as, or even more, impressive than any I've seen on FTR.

    How how can you get.....?
  3. #3
    Vinland's Avatar
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    Holy shit dude. Nice work.
    I've stuck this on "my favorites" and no, its not b/c of PlaytoWin's avatar...
  4. #4
    The $100NL retrospective has been updated added and updated in the original post.
    - Jason

  5. #5
    I am so f'n cynical of stake difference generalizations, and fully believe that 90%+ of generalizations people make about a stake are based in limited experience.

    I don't believe that 20k, or even 40k hands is nearly a large enough sample for most people to come up with accurate generalizations about a limit. There's too much variability in the game. The tables you happen to find yourself on, the regs you happen to be facing more, the types of fish you run into more than others could be quite varied between two players playing the same limit, even over what some would consider a 'large' sample. All the time I see people saying things like "zomg 25NL was so nitty", only to hear someone else say the complete opposite thing

    I also don't think learning about limit characteristics is even useful. I see players trying to use some "stake-based read" to justify some play and I just facepalm.

    I used to start those "I'm moving up, what should I expect" threads when first rising the ranks, and if anything -- they did me more harm than good. The biggest, and most common mistake people make when moving up is to adjust their game to some perceived difference with the next limit and it pretty much always results in them playing bad & getting smacked back down.

    Don't change a fucking thing when moving up. Poker is a game of adjusting to specific players, regardless of stake. Just keep doing that no matter how big the money is and you'll be fine.
  6. #6
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer

    Don't change a fucking thing when moving up. Poker is a game of adjusting to specific players, regardless of stake. Just keep doing that no matter how big the money is and you'll be fine.
    mucho importanto
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  7. #7

    Default Re: Stake Differences (Full Ring)

    I don't recommend that anyone ever change their game because they are moving up and I don't think I was advocating that, but I'll say it now just to be clear. I have never done that and my observations reflect that. I changed my game as I needed to and was always learning along the way and I'm trying to continue that trend. I acknowledged in my original post that there is no one correct answer for any given player and everyone's individual experience will vary.

    But, I do think it can be useful to see how different people view different stakes and the skill-sets observed that they use or don't use. There may be commonalities for stakes, there may not be. I also think there can be "stake based reads". How often I or anyone uses them is hard to say. But along every stake thus far, there are standard or more common lines that players tend to take for given situations and you can only get that through experience, but it does exist.
    - Jason

  8. #8

    Default Re: Stake Differences (Full Ring)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason
    I also think there can be "stake based reads".
    I will say that you could come up with generalizations about how 200NL is different from 2NL, or 1kNL is different from 50NL, but differences from 10NL to 25NL, or 50NL to 100NL are too subtle to be of any use during play.

    As for there being "common lines that players tend to take for given situations" at different stakes, I think that's nonsense. There are common lines that certain player types take, but it's not like a nittag at 10NL is going to be raising a Qxx rainbow flop IP with KQ anymore than a nittag will at 100NL.

    I don't mean to shit on your thread -- your experiences will certainly be interesting to new players but I do believe strongly that stake differences between stake n and stake n+1 are massively over-exaggerated and often serve as the basis for bad adjustments that hinder a player's ability to move up.
  9. #9
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not saying you're wrong because for YOUR experience, that may be true. For me, $50NL was MUCH different than $25NL and MUCH different than $100NL. I never enjoyed $50NL but did like $100NL and $25NL. I only logged 18k, 71k, and 57k hands @ $25NL, $50NL, and $100NL respectively so it could have been a coincidence or a mental mirage in my head, but it was definitely MY experience ... real or imagined.

    But, I welcome the discussion because I think it's good to hear from players who saw little to no difference between stakes because that will be the case for some players.

    During one of the videos of the "FullRing Fellowship Dojo" series on DC, DJ Sensei specifically asked his students something along the lines of, "Let me ask you guys, how does a typical $100NL regular react in this situation with this hand range?" ... "I can tell you @ my experiences in $600NL, that this would usually mean this, but you have to know how your players react". This has been my experience as well, so, I again disagree that a nit generally acts and thinks the same way @ $200NL and $2NL - there may be some ways they are alike, but I think there ARE some ways they are not. I wouldn't try to PREDICT those differences ahead of time - you have to experience them yourself and adjust accordingly. Poker is a constant game of discovery - large concepts, small concepts, general behaviors, and specific behaviors.

    Some players may overreact to moving up stakes, but it IS a common question and curiosity. I think a general and specific discussion has merit. I hope no one uses any of my information or anyone else's to play badly, but odds are they would have played badly on their own anyway
    - Jason

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